E&DO and The Self

[Seth Ananda]

This may be Long winded so I will apologise in advance.

 

I think I will just say what I am [hopefully] understanding and then work backwards from there...

 

Ok, So the Universe is a Big Body. A body that contains all the degree's of Consciousness, Bliss, Energy, right down to the most 'solid' matter.

 

Coming from a more Theistic background I used to think that God or the Self was somehow Independent from the world despite being also the director and the actual substance of the world itself.

 

This was a very hard perspective for me to leave, as when I opened my self up to it, the experiences I had constantly confirmed the hand of the divine in my Life.

Miracles, Healing, Massive Love, experiences of Oneness and Cosmic Consciousness.

The Divine is a Tangible force for me.

 

When I practice the Presence of God {in a theistic sense}a subtle but powerful current of Light and bliss suffuses my being allowing me to heal and leaving my heart expanded with a sense of Universal connection.

 

When I practice Guarding the One or Following the One, Receiving Heavenly chi, {In a Taoist not theistic sense} I feel much the same thing except, that rather than the sense that God [a personality] is guiding or directing me, it feels like Harmony as the mandate of Heaven is directing me. And this has much the same results...

Heavenly chi 'Orders' matter...

 

So here is where it began. The Idea that we do not have a self really bugged me. When ever I did 'who is looking at...' type Inquires all I could come up with was 'No one' as an answer.

But what about experiences of the Self? Oneness where there ceased to be a difference between me, my thoughts and and the world?

Hard to reconcile.

 

Then I kept noticing various pictures from different traditions. The wheel of life in Buddhist paintings with hell realms right through to Heavenly realms. Shamanistic paintings of the world tree with underworld up to Spirit realm as the one tree.

And Ideas of the Harmony of Heaven and Earth cycling together.

 

And this may seem extremely obvious to many but not me so please do not laugh

but then it hit me.

It really is all one system, or one Body, and every bit is constantly changing, and cycling into new bits. Its like an energetic sorting system where the finer energy's as they emerge naturally group with the more heavenly energy's and the denser with the more earthly.

And the Subtler or Heavenly Energies that are so Powerfully 'Harmonising' on the denser fields when allowed to interact with them, they really do form the foundations of the Universe and stop everything from just falling apart, so they really are 'God Like' in some sense.

But it is all One vast changing Dependently originating System.

And it is Utterly Amazing.

And I am a utterly dependent constantly changing flux within this system.

 

If Heavenly Chi or the Presence of God Influences me on one day I change and become more Heavenly, or God like, but then on another day I get annoyed and my energy changes back and everything shifts again.

 

So I can see now that many traditions Focus entirely on getting deep stable connection within the Heavenly Realm of Bliss and Light and Oneness, or the Self, or God, and I think that that is a good thing.

But I can also see what Buddha realised, in that Even the Heavenly realms of experience are totally tied to the rest of existence or Samsara, and I can finally recognise the areas of subtle clinging that have been present in my Deepest mystical experiences of the Self.

 

As cool as the Universe is, IMO, Only understanding Emptiness and Dependent Origination can free one from the whole Ever-changing cycling process that is the Universe and one's self.

I am amazed at how complete the sense of Freedom is that E&DO brings. Dizzyingly so.

 

And it in no way diminishes my ability to enjoy the Heavenly states or even the so called Self, nor does it magically remove them, Instead it completely frees 'me' from the Need to believe I am anything or to try and grasp onto anything or any state.

 

E&DO seems like a very Nifty side step into freedom from Everything.

It is the only thing that isn't moving because it is not a thing.

 

So the Idea that Spirit or the Divine is mutually dependent and tied to the rest of existence should be obvious.

If it can Influence our world then the two are connected.

If we can become more like it and then at a later point move away from it again then there is obviously a cycling going on...

 

I still believe that Heavenly Chi or the Divine has an element of guiding the flow and direction of the universe, possibly even evolution, and is the underlying structure of the universe, But I can no longer see that energy as the 'Creator' in the way that I used too... I think its more like a sea of brilliant candles that are so bright I couldn't distinguish them from each other, and thus did not see the constant changing they were/are going through as old ones pass and new ones arrive... This in now way constitutes a single entity or 'Being'.

 

I should have tried to write this up when my brain wasn't feeling so fried. I hope its not too all over the place

 

I Look forward to your Feedback

Blessings!

Seth.

[Vajrahridaya]

This may be Long winded so I will apologise in advance.

 

 

it is all One vast changing Dependently originating System.

 

I was sleeping and was woken up after a couple hours and couldn't get back to sleep. Now my wife is complaining that she took a shower and can't understand why her hair is falling out. So... I'll have to make this fast.

 

So I can see now that many traditions Focus entirely on getting deep stable connection within the Heavenly Realm of Bliss and Light and Oneness, or the Self, or God, and I think that that is a good thing.

 

The Buddha never said that it wasn't a good thing. Of course it's a good thing! It leads to higher stages of evolution for an individual mind stream and even a mass of mind streams! Imagine if our entire human race believed and experienced that great and wonderful bliss of the formless experiences!?

 

But I can also see what Buddha realized, in that Even the Heavenly realms of experience are totally tied to the rest of existence or Samsara, and I can finally recognize the areas of subtle clinging that have been present in my Deepest mystical experiences of the Self.

 

Indeed. It was very, very hard for me to come to this realization. I resisted it in debate with a Buddhist master for many years. But, when I started experiencing directly what he was talking about... I at first fell apart after the amazing experiences of subtle insight past my experiences of "Self". Then experienced even deeper causes for my samskaras, then experienced even deeper clarity into the nature of everything in and around me.

 

As cool as the Universe is, IMO, Only understanding Emptiness and Dependent Origination can free one from the whole Ever-changing cycling process that is the Universe and one's self.

I am amazed at how complete the sense of Freedom is that E&DO brings. Dizzyingly so.

 

Laughing really strong right now! Yeah man!!

 

And it in no way diminishes my ability to enjoy the Heavenly states

or even the so called Self, nor does it magically remove them, Instead it completely frees 'me' from the Need to believe I am anything or to try and grasp onto anything or any state.

 

E&DO seems like a very Nifty side step into freedom from Everything.

It is the only thing that isn't moving because it is not a thing.

Nope, it's an insight!

 

 

 

I think its more like a sea of brilliant candles that are so bright I couldn't distinguish them from each other, and thus did not see the constant changing they were/are going through as old ones pass and new ones arrive... This in no way constitutes a single entity or 'Being'.

 

No it doesn't, but the experience of oneness is still there as emptiness leaves everything transparent. All these candles, though bright are not blinding anymore. That bright bliss is still there to be experienced, but rather than blinding one from the subtle inter-connectivity of mutually dependent individuals, it's granting you insight into them and past them, beyond duality, but also beyond unity... into emptiness.

 

Truly amazing insight Seth!! Ok, my wife really wants to look up about the hair thing... I'm being rushed!!

 

Peace, harmony and deep grounding breaths!

Edited September 6, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Ok, she's satisfied with the information she got. She has never been away from a cold climate for this long, having been born and raised completely in Canada and now living in Florida.

 

Anyway. The higher experiences of bliss and light will blind one and lead one to think this is the "source" the "self" the true self existence of everything. This is the basic last ditch effort of the ego. It's very deep and subtle, not bad, not good, just natural for the mind to think this about these very deep, subtle, incredibly insightful experiences of bliss, love, connection to everything as the "real soul" of everything!

 

The insight of emptiness and dependent origination does not negate these experiences at all. It in fact gives new insight into these experiences, new liberation through these experiences. But also freedom from even while these experiences occur.

 

I am one of frequent blissful experiences, so for me it was very hard to come to this insight. My mind put up a fight for a long time against the complete eradication of clinging of any sort, because it thought that it could have this one truly existing essence to cling to and it would all be ok in the end. But no... it only leads to re-absorption at the end of a cosmic eon and re-expression at the beginning of a new one. When I say these things, people are like, "What?? Cosmic eon... who the hell cares about that which lasts for trillions and trillions of years?? I'm just worried about the end of this life!" But... if you are like me who has seen directly into past lives, and directly into other dimensions of experience beyond this body, into the heaven realms spoken about in the different religious texts and the words of great beings spoken about in various Autobiographies, then you are not worried so much about merely the end of this life, but you are concerned with true and total freedom from the cycle, complete and without any residue!! YAY!!

 

That is E&DO my man...

 

:lol: :lol:

[Vajrahridaya]

I bow to your lotus feet Seth Ananda. You have entered a new revelation of insight that is brilliant, deep and subtle. May it grow to grant you complete and total Buddhahood in this very lifetime!

[betwixter]

-

Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[Seth Ananda]

I bow to your lotus feet Seth Ananda. You have entered a new revelation of insight that is brilliant, deep and subtle. May it grow to grant you complete and total Buddhahood in this very lifetime!

[blush]

thanks for the replys Vajra.

[Seth Ananda]

Hiya guys,

 

My experiences are of a different sort, so I would not really have anything valuable to contribute to your initial post Seth...BUT, I do have a question for either or both of you, whomever would care to answer. Simply, what 'practices' do you credit with your individual revelations (and could you give a bit of detail on the practice--including, Seth, your initial 'opening' up to God practice as I could never give over enough for that unfortunately) and how long (approx.) have you been cultivating? Your descriptions implies quite a long and dedicated practice, but I could be wrong. By the way, your candle analogy was quite stirring.

 

Thanks

I began in earnest when I was 17 and am 35 now. Initially I used Intense Devotional practices- Ie singing and chanting The Names of God, Fasting, the Praying without ceasing practice, and the Practising the Presence of God attentive practice. I also spent a lot of time in Nature, lived in a tent in the bush for 10 months and really let myself 'open' to Great Spirit, or the Immanent Divine in that period.

I would lock myself away and Fast and pray and chant until something Happened.

 

Despite all this I do not think it has to be that hard as many people Open up with out all the forced effort.

Prayer is one of the ultimate practices really.

Many people are Embarrassed to 'Talk' to a big unknown, But I heard Sufi's refer to God as the Friend, and so took that on board. wherever I was I just kept Talking to the Divine as if it was my friend.

I would say anything- Fuck you God, why don't you Fucking answer! You don't even Fucking exist do you! Hey God did you see that Dog? Why the hell did that happen? How is your creation so Incredible? Everything is so stunning? Wow Double Rainbow! Hey God I feel like... Lets Get breckfast!

The Important thing for me in prayer at first was just to express my heart and everything in it. It is sort of like an Unpacking process and begining to 'make room' for God within it. After a while the Focus shifts to using Prayer without ceasing to maintain an Openness at all times to the presence of God... The Sufi's call this Remembrance...

Blessings.

[Birch]

I was just calling it "the blender" the other day

 

Neat post Seth. My present take (for today) is if you keep insight, keep emptiness the 5E will sort itself out in a way (wu-wei) which is favourable to you and others.

[Vajrahridaya]

I began in earnest when I was 17 and am 35 now. Initially I used Intense Devotional practices- Ie singing and chanting The Names of God, Fasting, the Praying without ceasing practice, and the Practising the Presence of God attentive practice. I also spent a lot of time in Nature, lived in a tent in the bush for 10 months and really let myself 'open' to Great Spirit, or the Immanent Divine in that period.

I would lock myself away and Fast and pray and chant until something Happened.

 

Despite all this I do not think it has to be that hard as many people Open up with out all the forced effort.

Prayer is one of the ultimate practices really.

Many people are Embarrassed to 'Talk' to a big unknown, But I heard Sufi's refer to God as the Friend, and so took that on board. wherever I was I just kept Talking to the Divine as if it was my friend.

I would say anything- Fuck you God, why don't you Fucking answer! You don't even Fucking exist do you! Hey God did you see that Dog? Why the hell did that happen? How is your creation so Incredible? Everything is so stunning? Wow Double Rainbow! Hey God I feel like... Lets Get breckfast!

The Important thing for me in prayer at first was just to express my heart and everything in it. It is sort of like an Unpacking process and begining to 'make room' for God within it. After a while the Focus shifts to using Prayer without ceasing to maintain an Openness at all times to the presence of God... The Sufi's call this Remembrance...

Blessings.

 

Wow! We have similar stories in your methods and I'm 35 as well. Cool. Yes, the above is exactly how I started and still do, though some of the focus has shifted and some of the concepts have emptied themselves to leave more space, but... yeah. I do need to take up the talking to my chosen deity practice more again, though I still do it sometimes, just less fervently as I used to. Ah... the bliss of divine longing is so awesome! Union, longing, union... longing... like a little game.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hiya guys,

 

My experiences are of a different sort, so I would not really have anything valuable to contribute to your initial post Seth...BUT, I do have a question for either or both of you, whomever would care to answer. Simply, what 'practices' do you credit with your individual revelations (and could you give a bit of detail on the practice--including, Seth, your initial 'opening' up to God practice as I could never give over enough for that unfortunately) and how long (approx.) have you been cultivating? Your descriptions implies quite a long and dedicated practice, but I could be wrong. By the way, your candle analogy was quite stirring.

 

Thanks

 

It's all quite convoluted and such in the types of practice, but I started with the Hindu Bhakti stuff, meditation, chanting, reading sacred texts and autobiographies by saints. Into contemplation of presence and the ensuing experiences from practice, fasting and conscious dreaming. Thinking about the nature of the elements. When I came to Buddhism, my focus shifted a bit and my way of interpreting my experiencing has changed. My Buddhist practices are more involved as well incorporating more specific techniques for specific results.

[Mokona]

As cool as the Universe is, IMO, Only understanding Emptiness and Dependent Origination can free one from the whole Ever-changing cycling process that is the Universe and one's self.

I am amazed at how complete the sense of Freedom is that E&DO brings. Dizzyingly so.

 

 

I hear emptiness all the time. What is Dependent Origination, though?

[Seth Ananda]

Wow! We have similar stories in your methods and I'm 35 as well. Cool. Yes, the above is exactly how I started and still do, though some of the focus has shifted and some of the concepts have emptied themselves to leave more space, but... yeah. I do need to take up the talking to my chosen deity practice more again, though I still do it sometimes, just less fervently as I used to. Ah... the bliss of divine longing is so awesome! Union, longing, union... longing... like a little game.

 

Heheh these days I dont really use the Prayer stuff much as Connection is instant. I still Practice the Presence, or Stay open to heavenly chi - Attending the One.

I suppose that sometime when things get hard I still go and Swear at the Universe and lay out my demands (i rarely ask for stuff) and things usally fix right up after that... I have noticed before as well that we have a similar past in some ways.

There is a ton of weirder stuff I didn't mention as was just responding to Betwixters God enquiry.

 

Seeing it all as being Totally E&DO has also changed my Feelings toward it also.

Sort of like I now just enjoy it for what it is (which is still pretty Awesome) rather than clinging to it out of a need for Stability or security...

 

Also It is still the best Meditation for me to enter a deep space with as I have used those practices for so long now. So I Connect Vertically for a while and Then contemplate E&DO or do the Mahamudra mind nature Inquiries or Rest in Natural Great Peace.

Blessings!

Seth

[Seth Ananda]

I was just calling it "the blender" the other day

 

Neat post Seth. My present take (for today) is if you keep insight, keep emptiness the 5E will sort itself out in a way (wu-wei) which is favourable to you and others.

Ahahah. The Blender! Do you mean the Universe?

Sorry 5E? is that like 5th level of Enlightenment or something Else?

I wouldn't mind even getting 1st... lol

Blessings!

Seth

[Vajrahridaya]

Ahahah. The Blender! Do you mean the Universe?

Sorry 5E? is that like 5th level of Enlightenment or something Else?

I wouldn't mind even getting 1st... lol

Blessings!

Seth

 

Well... you've probably entered first stage Bodhisattva at least. Anyway... she means 5 elements.

[Vajrahridaya]

I hear emptiness all the time. What is Dependent Origination, though?

 

It means all things, experiences and beings arise inter-connectedly or find their existence through the fact of other things in an endless web of flow and change. It's the opposite of independent origination, which is the idea that things manifest from themselves or from a single essence or a single being that is itself without cause.

 

You can do a google search and find some good information on dependent origination.

[Seth Ananda]

I hear emptiness all the time. What is Dependent Origination, though?

Dependent Origination demonstrates Emptiness.

 

It means that there is nothing you can Find anywhere in the Universe that has A Fixed or eternal, separate, ongoing Nature. Nothing. Look for anything then examine it.

You will see that its existence is entirely Dependent on countless other causes. everything that lead up to the object also relys on Countless other Causes as well and so on.

Therefore nothing has its own stand Alone Existence and is thus 'Empty' of any Inherent Self or Being...

 

Empty in these terms does not mean Empty like some Void or space, but rather Empty of any actual Inherent self Existence...

 

Good Luck.

[Mokona]

That's fairly nuts. Okay. Hmm, how do I wrap my head around this one...

 

ahah, I think my head just started listing to the side a bit becuase its so crazy.

 

Anyhow, I like it. That's a crazy noodle of an idea. It would be nice to eventually experience something like that in meditation anyway. Maybe I can look forward to it in the future.

 

Thumbs up!

[Seth Ananda]

Well... you've probably entered first stage Bodhisattva at least. Anyway... she means 5 elements.

Hmm where do I find a List of Bodhisattva stages? And thanks!

Seth.

[C T]

Sounds like the realization has begun dawning, Seth ANANDA!

 

Wish you the very best in bringing this 'light' to bear... naturally and effortlessly, until doing and non-doing, being and non-being, becomes totally suffused so that all distractions (which always arise when the 'self' becomes aware of itself) may be pacified!!

 

Emaho!!

 

Really happy for you my friend...

 

 

 

 

a.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hmm where do I find a List of Bodhisattva stages? And thanks!

Seth.

 

The Dzogchen understanding is that any of the stages can happen spontaneously and not necessarily in order, but you enter the first stage through a sustained experiential comprehension of emptiness/D.O.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bodhisattva

 

Different traditions have more than 10. But, the above Wiki link is good enough to get an idea. You can always google more!

[Birch]

Yes I did mean 5 Elements.

 

"The blender" is somewhat harder to explain. I won't be so bold as to say it's "the universe" The only one I know is the one I know and I don't know much about that even. More like a "resolution machine" aka "karma" or "life."

[Creation]

Hi Seth.

 

What an exciting transition you are experiencing!

 

I am wondering, was their some discernible cause or process that brought about this realization? Like how Vajrahridaya had his long web debates (Vajra, I'm sure there is more to that story and I would love to hear from you as well).

 

Had you made an in-depth inquiry into the Buddhist view before, or was it mostly in the background of your consciousness until now?

 

[dwai]

So here is where it began. The Idea that we do not have a self really bugged me. When ever I did 'who is looking at...' type Inquires all I could come up with was 'No one' as an answer.

But what about experiences of the Self? Oneness where there ceased to be a difference between me, my thoughts and and the world?

Hard to reconcile.

 

Seth,

 

Who heard the answer?

 

Our problem is that we think the Self is a personality, and individuality. It is not...it simply is...and there is nothing that is not it. DO is indeed great to show the underlying emptiness of phenomena that we take as being absolute realities day-in and day-out. And Emptiness is essential to realize all that which is not absolutely real...

 

Nice post...

[Cueball]

I'd also be very interested to hear anything more about this from the personal point of view. It's something that's been burrowing away at me too for a good while.

 

Thanks for posting!

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Seth.

 

What an exciting transition you are experiencing!

 

I am wondering, was their some discernible cause or process that brought about this realization? Like how Vajrahridaya had his long web debates (Vajra, I'm sure there is more to that story and I would love to hear from you as well).

 

Had you made an in-depth inquiry into the Buddhist view before, or was it mostly in the background of your consciousness until now?

 

I Had read a bunch of Buddhist books, seen some teachers and received Empowerments over the Years but just could not reconcile my strongly Theistic and Kashmiri Shavite world views with it. Especially Buddhism saying that the Enlightenment levels of the Hindu's are still within Samsara.

Other weirdness was the first time (many years ago)when I saw a picture of Dilgo Khyentsi Rinpoche my heart exploded with Bliss and I nearly fell over. That bugged the hell out of me.

Then Back a bit, probably about a year and a half ago, I felt like I had been pretty much forced into accepting Buddhism by my own head, against my better judgement.

I Took Refuge with HH Sakya Trinzin and tried to be Buddhist for about 6 months but Missed my connection with God or the Greater Universe to much. Everything I knew how to do in a spiritual sense was strongly rooted in a theistic world view. I felt kind of alone and naked.

So I returned to my Theistic beliefs and kept practising Happily.

E&DO kept bugging on the way though. To be truthful some days I just thought Buddha was an Stubborn prick in Insisting that his school was somehow 'different' to the others and that it went Further that the Veda's teachings.

 

Then I found Greg Goode's book Standing as Awareness [thanks Xabir for your quote from it somewhere on this site ] and Loved the way that particular Advaita tradition pointed out things. He makes Awareness Primary, and everything within Awareness just arising's or Displays of awareness for no particular reason. He challenges the idea that awareness does anything, or that we control awareness by putting the person we are and the decisions we make all entirely inside awareness Itself.

Also though He describes Awareness as the thing that experiences, and makes it very clear that awareness is not an experience or even a 'thing' in any sense.

 

I am not saying that this is absolute truth or anything, just that this was very helpful for me as a stepping stone.

Awareness became the Self, but as far as a Self goes, It doesn't leave much, if anything to cling too.

Its outside the model of enlightenment 'as an experience or state of being' as all of those things happen within Awareness.

 

I continued on Happily a bit further Till I realised clearly that:

 

Consciousness/Being/Non Dual Awareness/Bliss/Living Light Intelligence and Creativity/Subtle realms/Time/Space/matter/Mother Earth/my subtle Bodies/my physical Body and All Matter are One Single package, Utterly tied to each other, with every bit or place within being completly Dependent on countless other parts within, forever and ever...

 

Its like one Awesome, astounding, Crazy ride of (probably) Infinite proportions.

 

And no matter how much I may go into one Polarised side, Like Non-Dual awareness, or that particular Mystical experience where I experience a State that [seems] to be the Consciousness behind The entire Universe, eventually the poles will swing and I will be back in Some other area of Samsara as I was never truly Free in the First place.

 

For me now, Properly Understanding E&DO is essential to truly have freedom from the Crazy roller-coaster ride that is all existence and all states of Consciousness.

 

Now rather than being some poor kid doomed to sit on the twister, forever, no matter how sick the ride makes me, I now have a ticket that lets me get on and off whenever I want.

And I can no longer get stuck in one bit of the ride, like the Highs or the Lows.

 

Freedom!

 

Now to deepening that Realisation!

Blessings

Seth.