Exellent Good Morning

[lienshan]

Dao De Jing chapter 59 is probably the most mistranslated of all chapters.

The last line of this chapter is one of the most important of all lines.

 

 

Heaven's office and the Man's administration are not identical.

Because: is it stingy? Only the Man is stingy!

Is correct speaking "Exellent Good Morning"? Use the correct "Good Morning"!

Only Righteousness, the accumulated virtue of magnitude, accumulates muchness.

Only the Arrogance, not the nonexisting superiority, isn't nonexistent.

No one knows these extremes not knowing their narrowness.

Valid is: "the existing state of the existing states is their mother".

Valid is: "for a long time correct spoken deeply rooted".

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

Commentaries:

"the Man" is the ruler of the Zhou state; the socalled "the Son of Heaven".

"the existing state" is the Zhou state; previously "the Zhou dynasty".

 

<== 6 : zhi4 ren2 shi4 tian1 mo4 ruo4

<== 6 : se4 fu2 wei2 se4 shi4 yi3

<== 7 : zao3 shi4 yi3 zao3 bei4 shi4 wei4

<== 7 : zhong4 ji1 de2 zhong4 ji1 de2 ze2

<== 7 : wu2 bu4 ke4 wu2 bu4 ke4 ze2

8 ==> : mo4 zhi1 qi2 ji2 mo4 zhi1 qi2 ji2

8 ==> : ke3 yi3 you3 yu4 you3 yu4 zhi1 mu3

8 ==> : ke3 yi3 chang2 jiu4 shi4 wei4 shen1 gen1

<== 8 : gu4 di3 chang2 sheng1 jiu4 shi4 zhi1 dao4

 

The number of characters in the <== reading direction lines are 667778

667778 correspond to Zhouyi hexagram 32 HENG and the Guicang hexagram 32 HENG WO

 

HENG occur four times in the chapter 1 of the Mawangdui editions instead of the taboo character CHANG,

used in the Received versions of Dao De Jing. CHANG means "eternal/unchanging",

while the Zhouyi HENG means "independent", and the Guicang HENG WO means "independent I/selfish".

The content of this chapter 59 is thus very close connected to the content of Dao De Jing chapter 1.

 

The Guicang 667778 changes the hexagram 32 HENG WO into the hexagram 20 KUAN (Contemplation),

that in the text is represented by the third last character shi4 "to observe/ to see".

[Marblehead]

I'll get to this a little later today.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

The reason why it's mistranslated is, that the text was coded to pass by the official censor's eyes

 

<== 8 : gu4 di3 chang2 sheng1 jiu4 shi4 zhi1 dao4

 

The three last characters in bold is the key to code of chapter 59.

 

Hexagrams were at the time of Lao Dan expressed thus: kuan zhi heng (hex 20 goes to hex 32)

shi4 means like kuan "to observe/to see" and chapter 1, line 1 says "heng dao"!

The diviner Lao Dan used the Guicang as code. He used one number 8 and five 6 or 7 numbers.

Those knowing the code could thus easily compute the number of characters in six of the lines,

and find out, where the lines were meant to break. kuan = 776668 heng = 667778

 

That's why the last line of this Dao De Jing chapter 59 is extremely important:

It tells, that the original chapter 1 characters were the tabooed heng,

and not the characters chang of the received Dao De Jing versions!

 

 

But let's talk about the meaning of Lao Dan's text

[Marblehead]

Okay. First I will present Dr. Wang's translation for comparison:

 

Managing people and serving heaven should be like farming.

As with farming, we submit (to nature) from the beginning.

Submission from the beginning leads to firm cultivation of Te.

With firm cultivation of Te, there is nothing that it cannot overcome.

With nothing not overcome, it will prevail without a limit.

Prevailing without a limit, it can be used to manage a country.

Managing a country with this principle will endure long.

This is why we say:

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

The number of lines is the same.

 

The first three lines are totally different.

 

The remaining lines are pretty similar.

 

I don't understand what he was pointing to with the first three lines. To me they appear to be unrelated with the rest of the chapter.

 

We will have difficulty reconciling the first three lines but the remaining six lines might lead to a nice discussion.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

I don't understand what he was pointing to with the first three lines. To me they appear to be unrelated with the rest of the chapter.

The first six lines is one arguement in my translation. Lao Dan says, that the title "Son of Heaven" is a bluff, because the ruler is stingy but heaven isn't stingy, which he names narrowness in line 6.

 

My translation reads the first five lines reversed, while Dr. Wang read/translate all lines straight out. His problem is thus the term "serving Heaven", that read/translated reversed means "Heaven's office" corresponding to "Man's administration", that'll say together the Zhou dynasty ruler title "Son of Heaven". Dr. Wang's "serving Heaven" makes no sense, it's nonsense. Do you or any other taoist on this board "serve Heaven"? I think, that you prefer "serving Tao"! So Dr. Wang's translation is by logic a mistranslation.

Edited September 7, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

[lienshan]

Henricks' translation of the first three lines:

 

1. For ordering humanity and serving Heaven, nothing's so good as being sparing.

2. For only if you are sparing can you, therefore, early submit [to the Way].

3. Early submission—this is called to repeatedly accumulate Virtue.

Henricks is not translating but interpreting. He uses [to the Way] allthough "the way" isn't mentioned at all in the previous text. What's mentioned is "serving Heaven", so if he was translating, then he would have written [to Heaven]. Henricks treats the chapter 59 text as if it was written by a newcomer and not written by the Grand Historian and Astrologer Lao Dan, one of the most intelligent men in whole China around 375 BC.

 

And still ... "serving Heaven" ... is the definition of a taoist: one who serves Heaven?

 

And by the way ... after sparing, how do I submit ... does Tao have a mailbox or a bank account?

Edited September 7, 2010 by lienshan

[Marblehead]

 

And still ... "serving Heaven" ... is the definition of a taoist: one who serves Heaven?

 

And by the way ... after sparing, how do I submit ... does Tao have a mailbox or a bank account?

 

I don't know how to serve heaven. I do know how to serve myself, others, and other animals on the planet. I even serve the flowering plants I have in my gardens.

 

I don't remember anymore how to submit. I stopped doing that a long time ago.

 

Don't use the US Mail though. Your submittal would likely get lost.

 

Submittal is a key word used in most religions. The leaders of the institutions want their sheep to submit to the desires of the clergy. That is why the Catholic Church has had its recent problems with sex abuse. The clergy can't get married to a member of the opposite sex but its seems to be okay for them to back-door little boys. Submit you young ones!

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

I even serve the flowering plants I have in my gardens.

The last line looks to me like a flowering plant, maybe a yarrow or milfoil

 

1. gu4 .......... solidification, foundation, strength

2. di3 ........... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root)

3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root)

4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed)

5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk)

6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence)

*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)

*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)

 

A reading from above to below (left to right) results in these two mistakes:

The photosynthesis of plants feeds the sun with energy.

The gravity makes the sun spin around the earth.

 

A reading from below to above (right to left) results in these two facts:

The sun feeds the plants by photosynthesis.

The graviation makes the earth spin around the sun.

 

*. dao4 ....... Dao , the way, to say .................... (the sun)

*. zhi1 ........ go to, arrive at, its ....................... (photosynthesis/gravity)

6. shi4 ........ observation, to see, to look at (the inflorescence)

5. jiu4 ......... worn-out, old, former (the stalk)

4. sheng1 .... birth, life, to breed (the seed)

3. chang2 .... lengthen, to excel, long (the top of the root)

2. di3 .......... lowest, bottom, root (the bottom of the root)

1. gu4 ......... solidification, foundation, strength

 

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, that's a flower. I would go with a sunflower. (I had a few earlier this year.)

 

Yes, I think perhaps all Asian printed text must be read from right to left, from bottom up.

 

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

But that doesn't make sense, in my mind.

 

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

This, on the other hand, makes sense to me and I give it an approving nod.

 

We can even say that about our flowering plant.

 

Well, the sun did used to go around the earth until man changed his mind and decided that the earth should go around the sun.

 

Peace & Love!

[lienshan]

 

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

But that doesn't make sense, in my mind.

 

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

This, on the other hand, makes sense to me and I give it an approving nod.

OK ... I suppose that you too prefer the last lines of Dr. Wang's translation

 

Valid is: "the existing state of the existing states is their mother".

Valid is: "for a long time correct spoken deeply rooted".

Dao, the birth of the seemingly worn-out, lengthens the solidification of the lowest.

 

Prevailing without a limit, it can be used to manage a country.

Managing a country with this principle will endure long.

This is why we say:

Deep roots and firm principles are the way to ensure an enduring long life.

 

 

The first text use the decline of the worn-out Zhou state as a parable to describe Tao.

The last text looks to me like the smalltalk of cocktailparty about common principles.

[Marblehead]

Yeah, I like Dr. Wang's translation for its conciseness. As I have said, I don't read the Chinese so all I can go by is what 'feels right'. I have no way to test the accuracy.

 

Hehehe. Well, if the first text were self-descriptive then maybe I could go with it. But to read three lines and need three paragraphs to clarify is just somehow unacceptable to me. Just keep it simple. I have a simple mind.

 

Peace & Love!