Novice Self - Accupuncture Danger?

[Mattimo]

Hi Everyone,

 

I just wanted to pick your collective brains about any danger associated with self accupuncture. I should also add that I am not following any charts or maps. Interestingly enough, I have gained more benefit from intuiting where I should put the needles then paying for accupuncture from a so-called professional trained in China. Also, I am using the needles to try to reduce muscular tension.

 

Thanks everyone

Edited September 7, 2010 by Mattimo

[Maddie]

Hi Everyone,

 

I just wanted to pick your collective brains about any danger associated with self accupuncture. I should also add that I am not following any charts or maps. Interestingly enough, I have gained more benefit from intuiting where I should put the needles then paying for accupuncture from a so-called professional trained in China. Also, I am using the needles to try to reduce muscular tension.

 

Thanks everyone

 

Ummmmm I would say acupressure is better to do to yourself.

[joeblast]

If you're going to do it yourself, at least know what you're doing: lay it down and get Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture

 

...errr...at least, "know where you're sticking yourself" because "knowing what you're doing" is a subject as deep as the ocean...

 

the manual contains all the needling depths, contraindications, "dont needle here or you run the risk of puncturing *insert internal organ*"...

Edited September 7, 2010 by joeblast

[LBDaoist]

I caution you to be VERY careful. I thought that I knew what I was doing and messed myself up pretty good with some accuPRESSURE (deep massage). The scary thing is that it took about a decade for me to realize the extent of the damage that I did.

 

Perhaps you might set your ego aside and get some instruction from trained professionals? When it comes to energy work and the meridians, it seems prudent to err on the side of caution. Also with energic work, since it is such a sensory and personal experience, reading about it and experiencing it are often different. I thought that I knew a lot from reading Dr. Ming's books and qi-gong and kung fu. After training with my sifu, I found that about 85% of what I thought I knew was wrong. Thinking that I knew what I was doing actually got in the way.

[NeiChuan]

I caution you to be VERY careful. I thought that I knew what I was doing and messed myself up pretty good with some accuPRESSURE (deep massage). The scary thing is that it took about a decade for me to realize the extent of the damage that I did.

 

Perhaps you might set your ego aside and get some instruction from trained professionals? When it comes to energy work and the meridians, it seems prudent to err on the side of caution. Also with energic work, since it is such a sensory and personal experience, reading about it and experiencing it are often different. I thought that I knew a lot from reading Dr. Ming's books and qi-gong and kung fu. After training with my sifu, I found that about 85% of what I thought I knew was wrong. Thinking that I knew what I was doing actually got in the way.

 

Hm interesting. I've only found about a 3rd of the info from mings books needs revision..

 

Would you say thats about right?

[Maddie]

Now that I have a little more time on my hands, I'll like to give you a conerned word of caution. I have worked in the medical field in the past. I drew blood and took anatomy. There is stuff under your skin that you don't want to be poking. You could mess up your nerves, blood vessels, ect... That is why Acupuncturists go to school and study a while. I myself want to study acupuncture (among other things), but as I do not know acupuncture as of yet I would never stick a needle in myself with out proper training. I do acupressure, and find that I get good results from that, plus I don't have to worry about damaging something vital under my skin. Something else to consider is, lets say you do actually insert a needle into a acupoint, but you do use the wrong combination of needles, or something else that you are unaware of. Well now you might be screwing up your chi flow. If I was you I'd either a) go to an acupunturist if you need some work done, or try doing acupruessure.

[Eternal_Student]

Absolutely not. You should NOT be needling yourself.

It takes a minimum of 4 years education, plus passing 5 medical boards including a board with any question from any western medical condition. The NCCAOM is trying hard to keep DO's and MD's from taking a weekend seminar to "learn" acupuncture. It is WAY to complex to learn through self study, not to mention dangerous.

 

You could: paralyze a nerve/limb, puncture an organ, cause a pneumothorax( 72 hours on a re-inflation machine),

cause a severe hematoma which could lead to a blood clot, cause a periosteum(bone) infection, blind yourself, or basically kill yourself if you needle the heart or main vessels.

 

I have at least 7 patients right now with severe nerve damage from an Chiro's and MD's attempting acupuncture, and they are trained medical professionals.

 

You are naive and stupid if you think you can learn one of the most complex medical systems by intuition alone.

[Birch]

Nope. Bad idea. Sticking organs aside (leads to death) "intuition" is best left to itself ONCE you have better understanding (whether that be through 4-7 years education) or otherwise.

 

You might find this book a)pretty interesting and b ) a reasonable "western rational" explanation for why it could be better not to go sticking needles in oneself.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Dao-Chinese-Medicine-Understanding-Ancient/dp/0195921046/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1283916416&sr=1-1

 

Would also love feedback from anyone who has read it. Thanks!

[Baguakid]

Forget the Acupuncture and go with Sitting or Standing Meditative Qigong (Wuji) or something similar. Especially if you're just trying to relax.

[Trunk]

.. any danger associated with self acupuncture. I should also add that I am not following any charts .. reduce muscular tension.

I'm not saying that you should do self-acupuncture (much has been posted already), but if you do then I'd suggest staying mostly to the extremities (arms below the elbows and legs below the knees). You can address most everything from there and it avoids (at least minimizes) many of the dangers that people 've already mentioned.

 

I find self-acuPRESSure (no needles) to be quite effective, especially if I do it most days (at least 4 days a week) - the pts & channels need consistent work to really open. Follow up w/ stretching or qi gong or whatever.

 

If you're going to do it yourself, at least know what you're doing: lay it down and get Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture

Deadman's Manual is the bomb. I find the electronic version to be especially convenient.

[Mattimo]

Well, I guess I was kind of asking for it. To be clear, I was only needling around my abdominal area and especially around the naval. It honestly helped a lot. I got a fantastic sleep, substantially reduced some tension I was experiencing there and am still alive. I would never needle my chest area. Anyway, was just curious what some opinions were.

 

Thanks

[Trunk]

I'd like to add some different perspective here, not saying it's right for everyone, just my experience. I've needled myself occasionally for over 15 yrs, I'm not a trained acupuncturist, and have never hurt myself doing it. I took it up for pain relief due to a long term health project.

 

Now certainly I've had long stretches where I haven't needled, focused on other methods (including self-acupressure) and have had long stretches where I went regularly to a professional acupuncturist.

 

.. needling around my abdominal area and especially around the naval. It honestly helped a lot. I got a fantastic sleep, substantially reduced some tension ... was just curious what some opinions were.

Abdominal area is pretty safe, imo.

 

The most basic tip I'd give (nothing new) is balance. This applies whether you're needling or pressing (or doing qi gong or working out in the gym, for that matter). You want to balance central ~ distal, up ~ down, left ~ right, medial ~ lateral, front ~ back. Obviously you can't do that all during a single treatment, but over a number of treatments you can. And even in a single treatment you can be somewhat balanced.

 

For instance, central~distal & up~down: If you're doing abdominal treatment you can also do points on your arms and legs. (Not necessarily w/ needles and not necessarily at the same time - maybe the next morning.)

 

The back is a little tricky to get. Rolling on tennis balls is a good solution.

 

 

 

To get more technical, I find that I like 6 channel theory and the 8 extraordinaries. Then there's the already-mentioned Deadman's Manual, which is just incredibly well done and useful.

 

- Trunk

[LBDaoist]

Hm interesting. I've only found about a 3rd of the info from mings books needs revision..

 

Would you say thats about right?

 

I am not so sure that Ming's books need revision, so much as my own mental imaginations of what I was reading were not right. In my situation I started reading books on qigong in search for answers to what I considered to be health problems... a sense of dis-ease within myself. That intention that I took into the books with my colored my perceptions of what I read.

[Mattimo]

Thanks for the informative reply Trunk. Indeed, when I have needled my abdomen everything was balanced.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

If you're going to do it yourself, at least know what you're doing: lay it down and get Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture

 

...errr...at least, "know where you're sticking yourself" because "knowing what you're doing" is a subject as deep as the ocean...

 

the manual contains all the needling depths, contraindications, "dont needle here or you run the risk of puncturing *insert internal organ*"...

 

Yes the condition if you incorrectly needle any part of the chest cavity is called Pnumonuthorax.

 

It is an extremely painful irritated condition which can be fatal. This is just to add to Joe's warning.

 

Training is usually essential as needling technique is better than complete knowledge.

[Trunk]

.. if you incorrectly needle any part of the chest cavity is called Pnumonuthorax. .. It is an extremely painful irritated condition which can be fatal.

This sounds rather doubtful to me. Acupuncture needles are very slender: upon pulling them out very rarely is there any bleeding at all. Not a drop nor speck of blood. So, that such a small puncture would cause a fatal wound??? I would need a lot more convincing. And of course I would want to know if such is the case...

 

Kindly, if it's not too much trouble,

What references and/or training backs up what you are saying?

[joeblast]

the bleeding isnt external, trunk - a pneumothorax is when the pleura, the inner chamber of the thorax, is punctured, and all the bleeding is internal. does have the possibility to develop into something fatal if severe and left untreated...

 

 

correction, looks like the real issue is the air pocket that can form in the pleura...

 

http://acupunctureandphytotherapy.com/acupuncture-and-pneumothorax/

Edited September 10, 2010 by joeblast

[Trunk]

the bleeding isnt external, trunk - a pneumothorax is when the pleura, the inner chamber of the thorax, is punctured, and all the bleeding is internal. does have the possibility to develop into something fatal if severe and left untreated...

 

I'm aware that the injury that you're referring to is internal. My point is that if an acupuncture needle is so slender that no bleeding occurs from the skin puncture, then the internal puncture would also be very very small and unlikely to do significant damage.

[joeblast]

absolutely, the data does reflect that seems to also reflect that its mostly people that dont know what they're doing who accidentally do it! its just that all the reading I've done on it references it as a "medical emergency" if one happens...

[Birch]

Neijing Suwen 64 (On Needling with Respect or Contrary to the Four Seasons)

 

"Regarding inserting needles into the five viscera: insertion into the heart causes death in one day, with the main symptomatic change of belching;insertion into the liver causes death in five days, with the main symptomatic change of talking;insertion into the lungs causes death in three days, with the main symptomatic change of coughing;insertion into the kidneys causes death in six days, with the main symptomatic change of sneezing and yawning; and insertion into the spleen causes death in ten days with the main symptomatic change of swallowing or gulping. Needle insertion into the human body that injures the five viscera produces symptomatic change and certainly results in death. The affected organ is determined by noting the symptomatic change in order to identify when death will result."

 

 

From http://www.amazon.com/Dao-Chinese-Medicine-Understanding-Ancient/dp/0195921046

[Mattimo]

I just wanted to report that I continue to experience quite effective results. Again, I am needling primarily around the naval/abdomen area so there is little chance of any danger. Essentially what I am doing is finding extremely tense areas and/or trigger points and inserting the needles there. Slightly twirling the needles and/or subtly brushing them in a direction with the hand and/or cupping the hand over several needles so as to apply very slight pressure also produces amazing results. To me, it seems that inserting needles into these areas alters the stagnant state and/or charge of a muscle and/or area of muscle. Furthermore, I would also equate it to inputing novel sensory data into the body which enables the body to affect change. It really is quite fascinating and quite relieving at the same time because I have struggled with body-wide tension which seems to originate from the abdomen area for quite sometime. I can honestly say that out of everything I have tried this has been the most effective - it really has surprised me.