Taken Tai Chi classes with Taoist Tai Chi Society?

[000]

Has anyone taken Tai Chi classes with Taoist Tai Chi Society?

 

I have thought of taking a Tai Chi class to foster the flow of Chi in the body. In my web searches, I found that the Taoist Tai Chi Society offered classes on Tai Chi and they seem reasonable priced. Since they have many centers in the US, I was wondering if anyone has taken the class and if they would recommend taking it. They appear to be new to the Denver area, and I thought it would be good to support them if the classes are well taught.

 

So, have you taken one of their classes and would you recommend taking the class?

 

Sorry for the short notice but, I need to decide this before the weekend ( when this class starts).

[Martial Development]

FWIW, I cannot think of a single martial arts franchise operation (with the possible exception of Jingwu), that has a good reputation within the martial arts community. Regardless, you should check at least 3 different schools before making a decision.

 

There is, or should be, no harm in joining a class 1-2 weeks late, if it comes to that.

[Mal]

[Stigweard]

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

[Bum Grasshopper]

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

 

I took Taoist Tai Chi for a spell. It is the only tai chi school in my area. It was very affordable, the social network was great and they had a lot of organized trips to China and other seminars. The instructors were merely long time students and they had no back up media such as DVD's or books so you could continue your training at home. And as stated, the form is so different from the existing media out there, you either had to go to class or nothing.

 

It may be a good starting point for you. You can always move on if other opportunities are available.

[Yuen Biao]

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

 

Yep I agree with that. Taoist Tai Chi is more exercise than martial art which does take away some of the purpose in the art itself. Furthermore there are no weapon forms I think and in my opinion that's when Taijiquan gets really interesting as I find the dao and staff form very rewarding!

 

It was also my first experience with Taijiquan for about a year before going on to Yang for the last eleven years or so. But it certainly does not hurt to give it a try, it's just not 'real' Taijiquan.

[goonis38]

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

[/quot]

 

Hi there,

Out of everything I find "Chi" very interesting... I wonder why they water it down like that... You should be able to start with a full class, that can take you all the way. That is right... Mel

[Stigweard]

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

[/quot]

 

Hi there,

Out of everything I find "Chi" very interesting... I wonder why they water it down like that... You should be able to start with a full class, that can take you all the way. That is right... Mel

 

It's all about packaging for the Western Market ... it's an interesting discussion. Tai Chi certainly does have some great benefits for the aging population, however, alot of the aging population would simply not be able to handle the traditional training.

 

Even I have to admit that in my community class I have reduced the traditional 20min plus Zhan Zhuang (Standing Qigong) down to 10min and I have given much more emphasis on Fang Song Gung because that is what my students need ... loosening and coordination.

 

In private of course I am much harder on my students. But we do have to adjust somewhat to suit the level of where people are -- the right ratio of adherence to the tradition whilst giving those that really want to train the opportunity to do so.

 

[Baguakid]

 

It's all about packaging for the Western Market ... it's an interesting discussion. Tai Chi certainly does have some great benefits for the aging population, however, alot of the aging population would simply not be able to handle the traditional training.

 

 

Sure, look what Dr. Paul Lam is doing. I just heard tonight that Dr. Lam will do a seminar near me. There are 45 students who will attend his class at a price of 275.00. That comes out to a nice 12k plus weekend for him.

 

His material is all non-traditional, watered down Sun and Yang/Sun combinations.

 

If you want to make money in the arts, don't teach traditional.

[Mal]

I know a person who teaches Dr. Paul Lam's Tai Chi for Arthritis, it only took her 18mts to start teaching. The teaching certification process is a 2 day workshop, in fairness they do expect some previous experience and require 2 year refresher courses. Since I had to look this info up, I found there is an instructor workshop in a few weeks here, cost is $420.

 

Back to Taoist Tai Chi and they require a one off $30 rego fee then yearly ($400) 6 month ($200) or monthly ($40) membership. In Townsville they offer 4 beginner class timeslots and 4 continuing class timeslots weekly.

 

(And we were feeling bad increasing our Tai Chi class fee from $5 to $6 a class )

[Taomeow]

I went to check out their websites and looked at the pictures and, globally, the picture is the same everywhere: horrible taiji...

 

Besides, even the name foreshadows some imminent problems with this system... Would you practice something that calls itself "Christians For Jesus Worship" or "Einstein Is Related To Relativity Theory!?" Taijiquan is a taoist martial art by default. Any taijiquan system that calls itself "taoist" implies that there are other taijiquan systems that are not?.. This is inherently bogus.

[RobB]

Has anyone taken Tai Chi classes with Taoist Tai Chi Society?

 

I spent 18 months with the TTCS a while back. My advice would be avoid, avoid, avoid.

 

If there is absolutely no-one else in your area then you'd be better off spending your time practicing some of the material available on TTB than going to their classes.

 

Seriously.

 

Cheers

 

Rob

Edited September 10, 2010 by RobB

[000]

Thank you all for responding so quickly. I really appreciate all of the responses, even those I am not quoting (I am note quoting some due to the overlap in view points).

 

Martial Development

Regardless, you should check at least 3 different schools before making a decision.

 

There is, or should be, no harm in joining a class 1-2 weeks late, if it comes to that.

 

Stigweard

Master Moy, the founder of Taoist Tai Chi Society, was very upfront in saying he changed the Yang family form to suit his needs. He removed all the martial arts out of the practice and has diluted it quite a bit.

 

Not that I am saying that you wont get benefits, you just have to keep in mind why you want to train. If you just want an introduction to Tai Chi then by all means go for it. But if you are interested in discovering the depths of Tai Chi then you have to keep in mind that you may have to eventually seek elsewhere. Of course the question then is, "Why don't you find the real deal to start with?"

 

Even I have to admit that in my community class I have reduced the traditional 20min plus Zhan Zhuang (Standing Qigong) down to 10min and I have given much more emphasis on Fang Song Gung because that is what my students need ... loosening and coordination.

 

I did decide to broaden my search and found another group offering the real Tai Chi ( Chinese Shao-Lin Center). They offered a month free trial and offer classes 3 times a week (Tai Chi and Kung Fu 2x and Kung Fu one extra time). I attended a class last night. Having no background at all, I, of course, was terrible at it, but that is to be expected. I thought it was interesting that you could start with the Kung Fu (lower levels) at the same time. This does appeal to me. It occurs to me that I am not limber enough to appreciate this practice at this time, and that my time would be better spent doing Hatha Yoga to increase my range of motion and flexibility.

 

I think I will follow my instincts on this one (that is the Taoist way listening to the heart). After practicing my micro-orbit meditation, I noticed a yearning to stretch more so I started doing yoga and I noticed better meditation after a yoga session. I an still really tight in a lot of areas but I am making progress even after a few sessions. I always know where I can go for Tai Chi in the future.

 

 

 

RobB

I spent 18 months with the TTCS a while back. My advice would be avoid, avoid, avoid.

 

If there is absolutely no-one else in your area then you'd be better off spending your time practicing some of the material available on TTB than going to their classes.

 

Thanks for sharing your personal experience. But just for the sake of open mindedness, I might try to call them and see if I can sit-in on a session. I would at least be able to compare the two approaches. My inclination is to go with the traditional approach at some point in the future.

 

I think it would be best to attend another class at the Chinese Shao-Lin Center and inform them that I appreciated there class, but I am not ready for it (but maybe ready in the near future).

Edited September 10, 2010 by Guest

[Martial Development]

Actually, I have a little familiarity with Chinese Shao-Lin Center. I live across the street from one of their branches, and I have visited the basic and advanced classes.

 

They seem to be of the opinion that, if you practice your Kung Fu slowly, it automatically turns into Tai Chi. It is an unorthodox viewpoint, to say the least. Their lineage head says he has mastered "over 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems"!

[Taomeow]

They seem to be of the opinion that, if you practice your Kung Fu slowly, it automatically turns into Tai Chi.

And if you practice yoga fast, it automatically turns into figure skating.

[000]

Actually, I have a little familiarity with Chinese Shao-Lin Center. I live across the street from one of their branches, and I have visited the basic and advanced classes.

 

They seem to be of the opinion that, if you practice your Kung Fu slowly, it automatically turns into Tai Chi. It is an unorthodox viewpoint, to say the least. Their lineage head says he has mastered "over 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems"!

 

I have witnessed some of what you speak of. During my the training session, the teacher actually pointed out that one of the Tai Chi movements was a simplified version of a Kung Fu move. But I do not understand the jist of your criticism. If traditional Tai Chi was conceived to enhance the martial arts, would it not have similarities in technique? I have no background in martial arts so excuse me if I have missed something that is fundamental to you.

 

You tatally lost me with this comment: Their lineage head says he has mastered "over 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems"! Could you explain it to me (although it does seem like an overly high number - do you concider this an inflated number?).

[Baguakid]

 

You tatally lost me with this comment: Their lineage head says he has mastered "over 900 forms from over 100 fighting systems"! Could you explain it to me (although it does seem like an overly high number - do you consider this an inflated number?).

 

You're kidding right? 100 fighting systems? Is he a god? I would love to see a list of those systems.

[Martial Development]

Can you imagine mastering 100 different musical instruments, because "they all make noise" and are therefore similar? Or if you don't like that analogy, how about mastering 100 different sports, because they all use the human body and are therefore similar?

 

When a modern athlete reaches the pro leagues in two different sports, that is already newsworthy. This guy says he is an expert in more than one hundred!

 

My personal views on Tai Chi can be found on my website.

[johndoe2012]

I have thought of taking a Tai Chi class to foster the flow of Chi in the body.

 

I would recommend to take Tai Chi classes for the martial aspect. Why not take qigong classes if you only are interested in increased chi flow?

 

Of course this requires a good qigong form which is also hard to find, probably as hard as finding a good teacher of Tai Chi.

[dwai]

I would recommend to take Tai Chi classes for the martial aspect. Why not take qigong classes if you only are interested in increased chi flow?

 

Of course this requires a good qigong form which is also hard to find, probably as hard as finding a good teacher of Tai Chi.

 

what's wrong with taiji for chi flow? works for me and many others who I practice with.

Taiji IS afterall a type of qi gong (can be nei gong as well if one does it right)...

[johndoe2012]

what's wrong with taiji for chi flow? works for me and many others who I practice with.

Taiji IS afterall a type of qi gong (can be nei gong as well if one does it right)...

 

Nothing wrong with chi flow as a side effect, but I think it is better for all parties involved to have an interest in the martial side - otherwise tai chi is getting more diluted than it already is. Tai Chi deserves a comeback to its roots

 

Chen Zhonghua and his Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method (Part 1)

[dwai]

Nothing wrong with chi flow as a side effect, but I think it is better for all parties involved to have an interest in the martial side - otherwise tai chi is getting more diluted than it already is. Tai Chi deserves a comeback to its roots

 

Chen Zhonghua and his Chen Style Taijiquan Practical Method (Part 1)

 

tai chi can be used as a martial art, a healing art or for spiritual transformation. It depends on how the principles and energies are applied.

My teacher doesn't teach Tai chi as a MA, but what we are learning can be applied quite effectively in case the need arose. Ward off is ward off, roll back is roll back after all (as are press, push, split, roll pull, elbow and shoulder) ...what is different is the intent behind using these energies...

 

Also different practitioners have different objectives. Some learn Tai chi for power, some learn it as a meditative technique and others learn it for health preservation/enhancement. The core of any of these is cultivation...and MA tends to spend more than is cultivated for most cases, effectively depleting the Martial Artist's "Chi reserves"...so applying Tai Chi unless absolutely necessary might not be such a great thing (I"m talking about using the energies and power transfer, etc). My teacher says that we should spend only 10-15% of our practice time on power transfer (Fa Jing, etc) and rest of it in cultivation...sounds like great advice to me.

Edited September 11, 2010 by dwai

[APD]

HI,

 

It became an instructor for a short while in this form. It has no application and has been adapted with bigger stretching and sinking movements to maximise its health benefits. It is based on the yang form and is 108 moves long.In terms of improving energetics it is a nice a form which does circulate the qi well. My only criticism is if you try and discuss any other tai chi or the martial application of the form it is not welcomed. You can be an instructor within two years of starting the practice and in my view a bit too quick as I met other instructors with little knowledge of tai chi and its principles and were surprised that other styles existed and I can only contribute this to the reluctance of senior teachers to share their broader knowledge. If you join you are told to not practice any other style. None the less it is a good form on an energetic level. All teachers are volunteers so their philosophy is on giving and sharing with out return which is admirable. My only worry was I noticed it started to display some elements of cult mentality but maybe that was just in the UK. The title Master Moy manifested when he died and he seems to have been elevated to this status after his death. Before this he was MR Moy. I Hope now he has passed the essence of what he started isn't lost.

[Taiji218]

For people wanting to learn some respectable taiji on their own, I recommend checking out Ian Sinclair's "Tai Chi Central" over on YouTube. He teaches a pretty decent 24 form via YouTube postings and has some pretty good video postings which show some of the application side of the form.

 

To supplement Ian's teaching, I'd also recommend checking out Mark Rasmus over on YouTube. He gives a lot of the internal instruction that having a personal "closed door" teacher might provide. In that light, I'd also recommend viewing his Wing Chun lessons as well. They transfer over to taiji perfectly.

 

Richard Clear is also on YouTube with some videos that highlight his commercial DVD's. Richard is sincere and also shows some good closed door material; the only caution I would throw out is that his commercial material is fairly expensive. It is however, a respectable substitute for having an actual teacher to learn from.

 

As a quickie intro to taiji for folks who are new to it: Taiji is an "internal" rather than an "external" art. What that fundamentally means is that taiji is based more on your internal feelings and sensations than on what it looks like from the outside. This is the biggest mistake most teachers make: they continuously work to improve the "look" of a given student's visual form than teach the student the internal kinesiology of the given movement.

 

Taiji is based on four fundamental "energies" or "jins": the usual order they are taught is bing, liu, ji and an, which are usually translated as "ward off, rollback, press and push." I find both the order and the English translations misleading (also, "bing" is usually transliterated as "p'eng" or "bung," whereas "bing" is closer to the actual Chinese pronunciation. Plus, "bing" as in cherry is more pleasant than "bung" as in "bung hole"--the drainage hole in a whiskey cask that is stopped by a cork but which in English slang is another term for anus).

 

Taiji is based on the natural energies we use everyday in walking. As we begin a step we let our forward foot "fall" forward. This is "an" (按). As our foot meets the ground it "compresses" into the earth ("ji" (擠) which literally translates as "squeeze"). As soon as we've compressed our forward foot into the earth, we experience an immediate recoil of energy which, if we allow it, travels up our body up through the top of our head without any "effort" on our part, resulting in perfect posture as a side benefit. This is "bing" or "float" (掤), a Chinese term which literally means "arrow" or "quiver" and which technically refers to the "effortless" feeling of releasing an arrow from the bow. The arrow shoots through the air without our having to "do anything" to propel it (storing the energy in the bow is equivalent to the storage of energy in the foot and leg's tendons and ligaments during compression although it's achieved in the opposite fashion). Finally, if we're relaxed when we're walking and allow our arms to swing back and forth in a natural fashion. we'll feel centrifugal force drawing the weight of our entire arm into our hands. This is technically referred to as "liu" (捋) although my teacher preferred the term "shuai" (甩) and I prefer the term "bai" (擺). "Lu" literally translates as "stroke" as in "stroking a beard" and refers to the actual movement called "liu" found throughout the form, where you deflect an attacking arm by "stroking" it, usually along the outside although you can also "stroke" the inside with similar effect. "Shuai," which was the term my teacher preferred, refers to the internal feeling of "flinging" the hands or arms in such a way that you feel the centrifugal force of the arm going into the hands. "Bai" translates as "pendulum" and is the most descriptive of the internal energy, which is why I prefer the term over both "liu" and "shuai."

 

So for physiological accuracy, I prefer the order of an, ji, bing and liu over bing, liu, ji and an. The traditional order relies on the "Brush the Bird's Tail" move, whereas my order refers to the natural occurrence of the energies while walking.

 

All of the taiji moves are based on these four "jins" or energies (勁). I prefer to call them "skills," as in taiji we learn to cultivate these energies throughout our movements and to rely on them in any self-defense applications. I should also mention that, in terms of bodily structure, we use "bing" or "float" energy to align our heads while using "an" or "falling" energy to align our pelvises. While the usual instruction to students for the head is to "imagine your head is hanging from a string," I prefer to encourage students to "imagine your head is filled with helium, and the only thing keeping it from floating into the sky is your neck." Instead of encouraging students to rotate their pelvises forward as is the usual practice, I follow Richard Clear's suggestion to "imagine your back is rounded like the shell of a beetle." This has the effect of flattening out the lumbar curve and naturally aligning the pelvis better than the usual suggestion, which I've found usually results in too much tension in the pelvis for the average student (not to mention that Richard's "beetle" suggestion hollows out the chest and shoulders pretty well also). Rounding out the small of the back releases the Ming Men, the power spot on the back which is second only to the Dantien, the power spot just below the belly button.

 

Most of the action in taiji occurs in the feet. The illusion is that the action is all in the arms or hands. In all of the motions we rhythmically fall-compress-float, and if we remain relaxed, we notice the pendulum feeling in all that we do with our arms and hands (or with our legs and our feet if we're executing a kick).

 

Proper taiji movement can be likened to a fishing rod, with the handle of the fishing rod being the feet and legs, the body of the rod being the torso, the narrowing of the rod and the tip being the arms and the hands, and the lure being cast being the energy that is "thrown out" by the hands. The Western biomechanical term for this entire process is called kinetic linking. You'll see it easily in major league baseball, where the pitcher throws 95 mph fastballs, not with his pitching arm, but with the transfer of his entire body weight from his back foot onto his right foot. You'll also see this in batting (and in golf and hockey), where the batter in addition to shifting his weight at the moment of the swing from his back foot onto his front, but also allows centrifugal force to bring the weight of both of his arms down into the "sweet spot" of the bat as he hits a line drive out of the park.

 

When attacked, we taiji ren mostly meet our attacker first with float, so that we raise his center into his chest. Then we help him fall a bit so that he compresses into one foot or the other as he attempts to regain his center and balance. Then we compress into both the ground and into the attacker to exaggerate his upcoming float. Conventionally in practice, we then observe our attacker being "uprooted" into the air (ba gen 拔根) with a feeling of little or no effort on our part (bing). The attacker feels as though he collided with a Swiss ball and was bounced or rebounded away. In other situations we might meet an attacker straight off with falling energy (an), either to uproot him from there right away or to immediately take him to the ground.

 

A beginner can familiarize him or herself with these energies on his or her own and then go on to learn a conventional form. Again, I'd recommend Ian Sinclair's YouTube instructional videos as very respectable as well as free for the viewing. Ian's taiji style is quite different from the one I teach, but that is of little import in the overall scheme of things.

 

But I'd generally avoid any taiji class that does not teach the martial applications. Generally speaking, if the instructor doesn't know any of taiji's martial applications, he or she will probably be ignorant of taiji's fundamental energy patterns. Taiji in that case will be largely a dance routine, and a pretty wimpy one at that. It's overall qigong benefits will largely be absent, as will its benefits in terms of rooting, balance and breathing.

 

I hope this helps!

Edited September 12, 2010 by Taiji218

[Stigweard]

Also different practitioners have different objectives. Some learn Tai chi for power, some learn it as a meditative technique and others learn it for health preservation/enhancement. The core of any of these is cultivation...and MA tends to spend more than is cultivated for most cases, effectively depleting the Martial Artist's "Chi reserves"...so applying Tai Chi unless absolutely necessary might not be such a great thing (I"m talking about using the energies and power transfer, etc). My teacher says that we should spend only 10-15% of our practice time on power transfer (Fa Jing, etc) and rest of it in cultivation...sounds like great advice to me.

I appreciate your teacher's view, but here is another way of seeing it. The process of learning to "issue force" requires the student to align the body, coordinate movement, and focus one's intent in a very specific, efficient, and effective way which, coincidentally, also creates the optimum level of qi flow through and around the body. In effect, by learning the martial arts, the student is actually cultivating more qi then what most non-martial arts practitioners do.

 

This is not to say that non-MA Taiji players can't or won't produce the same energy, with a good teacher and diligent practice they certainly can. It's just that the environment of martial application demands that the student makes the correct alignments, coordination, and intent required for optimum energy.

 

...

 

I hope this helps!

 

Exceptional post Taiji218 I few points there that I will take on board and explore. Thank you.

 

RE: I follow Richard Clear's suggestion to "imagine your back is rounded like the shell of a beetle."

 

Here's a potentially better way of "getting" that concept.

 

I teach the concept of wǔ gōng 五弓, or "five bows". These bows are: 2 legs, 2 arms, 1 spine. When standing in Zhan Zhuang, I encourage my students to identify with and connect these five bows and suggest that ZZ practice is about "loading" the bows with potential that can be expressed in our practice. So I have found that viewing my spine as a bow that is linked to the arm and leg bows very effectively forms the spine correctly.