Kan and Li

[Maddie]

Does/has anyone done Kan and Li, specifically the lesser kan and li? I have the book from Chia and was hoping to get some tips and pointers from anyone's personal experience with it. Do you feel much or is it mostly visualization?

[liminal_luke]

I took all the kan & li classes with Michael Winn although I haven't been doing much consciously with it in awhile. There's definately something to be said for getting the feeling of it from being in a class. I think it would be much more challenging to really get it just from a book, at least for me. So if you do have an opportunity to go to a workshop sometime definately do that. Have you done fusion of the five elements? That and working with the microcosmic orbit are pretty much prerequisite. I find that fusion of the five elements starts out as pretty much a visualization but as you do it takes on more and more of a real quality. You feel you aren't just manipulating the elements with your mind, but can actually feel it in your body. Kan and Li is the same way. You might start out thinking you are just visualizing but when you really get it there is definately a feeling to it. Hope this helps.

[Maddie]

I took all the kan & li classes with Michael Winn although I haven't been doing much consciously with it in awhile. There's definately something to be said for getting the feeling of it from being in a class. I think it would be much more challenging to really get it just from a book, at least for me. So if you do have an opportunity to go to a workshop sometime definately do that. Have you done fusion of the five elements? That and working with the microcosmic orbit are pretty much prerequisite. I find that fusion of the five elements starts out as pretty much a visualization but as you do it takes on more and more of a real quality. You feel you aren't just manipulating the elements with your mind, but can actually feel it in your body. Kan and Li is the same way. You might start out thinking you are just visualizing but when you really get it there is definately a feeling to it. Hope this helps.

 

 

Thanks for the reply. Yea I have dabbled with fussion of the 5 elements before, but with that also I felt like I was just visualizing it, and did not really feel anything. I have been doing MCO for a while and with that I can feel stuff, which is why I was confused if it was supposed to be the same with fussion and Kan and li. So do you just keep at it as a visualization for a while until you start to feel something? That is sort of how it worked for me with inner smile and 6 healing sounds at first.

[idquest]

I wouldn't practice something like K&L just from the book. At best it would be waste of time. Worse - one can damage themselves.

 

Books for this level of practice contain 10-20% of information. There is no way you can figure out remaining info yourself.

 

Practices at this level work with different glands directly. One should remember that.

[Trunk]

Does/has anyone done Kan and Li,...

 

You might find the Kan & Li section from AlchemicalTaoism.com to be helpful.

[Maddie]

You might find the Kan & Li section from AlchemicalTaoism.com to be helpful.

 

Actually I did check it out, and indeed did find it to be helpful, but was also interested in personal experience as well.

[liminal_luke]

I think it's more or less like you say...you just have to keep at it until it starts to feel real. I'd work with fusion of the five elements first for a long time until you really feel like you have that grounded in your body first though. When you really get the fusion of the five elements going chances are that lesser kan & li will just happen on it's own anyway. Afterall, it's really just a natural process that's happening all the time. The meditation is just a way of becoming aware of it and helping it along. And yes, a class would very quickly give you a feel for it more than any advice here could do. When you go to the class and the teacher has kan & li bubbling along, and the other students start to get it you'll get it too without really trying. Just like if you go into a room and everybody's laughing. Very easy to start laughing too. And once you've got the joke you'll never forget it. But you can sit around reading about the joke for a long time and never see what's funny. It's like they say...."you'd have to have been there."

[Maddie]

I think it's more or less like you say...you just have to keep at it until it starts to feel real. I'd work with fusion of the five elements first for a long time until you really feel like you have that grounded in your body first though. When you really get the fusion of the five elements going chances are that lesser kan & li will just happen on it's own anyway. Afterall, it's really just a natural process that's happening all the time. The meditation is just a way of becoming aware of it and helping it along. And yes, a class would very quickly give you a feel for it more than any advice here could do. When you go to the class and the teacher has kan & li bubbling along, and the other students start to get it you'll get it too without really trying. Just like if you go into a room and everybody's laughing. Very easy to start laughing too. And once you've got the joke you'll never forget it. But you can sit around reading about the joke for a long time and never see what's funny. It's like they say...."you'd have to have been there."

 

Yea I see what you are saying about doing the fussion practise first. I can definately see how that could carry over to Kan and Li.

[三江源]

Does/has anyone done Kan and Li, specifically the lesser kan and li? I have the book from Chia and was hoping to get some tips and pointers from anyone's personal experience with it. Do you feel much or is it mostly visualization?

 

Hi dmattwads. Yes, I 've done the K&L courses several times with M Winn. Not visualising, definitely feeling, IME.

Very much an inner lovemaking, blissful, cleansing alchemical process. Lots of junk old emotion pouring out and away. Purifying.

 

As other people have said, it's great to be with a teacher. But you can def do it alone if you have the perseverance, to get past the initial seeming-complexity.

 

I wouldnt attempt it without a good success with Fusion. Without that basis and that level of purification not a lot can flow.

 

It is very valuable to persevere with Fusion! And if Fusion isnt happening as you woud wish, return to base and rebuild from foundation. No hurry.

 

Good Luck, I hope you enjoy!

[liminal_luke]

Cat's description of the kan&li really brings me back to my experience in the workshop with M Winn. It was like that! Agree that without feeling it's not really happening. Sometimes for me though I have to start with visualization and then the feeling comes. But I think the more fusion is happening the easier it is to get the feeling for kan&li right away.

[Eternal_Student]

What if Kan and Li didn't just happen in the dantien? What would happen if Kan and Li occurred in multiple places and multiple depths of the body. Just a hint...

 

The initial comment from IDquest has a serious hint in it as well!

 

[Aetherous]

Ooh, I love hints! It makes me feel like I'm begging for scraps from my master. But in order for him to teach me a lesson about being a dog, I don't get the scraps.

 

(No personal offense intended. I know it's hard to share.)

[Eternal_Student]

Ooh, I love hints! It makes me feel like I'm begging for scraps from my master. But in order for him to teach me a lesson about being a dog, I don't get the scraps.

 

(No personal offense intended. I know it's hard to share.)

 

Ugh, do I sound like that? I HATE that side of the teacher/student relationship.

It was my biggest pet peeve when trying to glean information from instructors over the years. I don't mean to do it for that reason, its totally because some of the info can't be directly spelled out because not everyone is ready to hear it.

 

Only the karma of the individual decides if they will understand what I am describing.

If you are at that point to step off your current plateau, the depth comment will send you into a whole new world of qi gong. (you being the general reader)

 

thanks for the mirror!

[Aetherous]

Ugh, do I sound like that?

 

Yup, especially with the "karma" comment.

 

Anyway, best wishes to you.

[exorcist_1699]

Spirit (性) and Life(命) , as the Yin and Yang aspects of Taiji, embody / "degenerate " themselves in human body as Li (fire)and kan(water) . In such an embodiment , qi is situated at the bottom of our body and spirit on the top , our genuine existence therefore is reversed and degenerated , ie, we are put to live in a post-heavenly way .Of course, such pattern of embodiment is only true in human beings and other higher form of livings, it may not be true in other living organisams. A sublimation and reversion of such status is therefore crucual for Man's emancipating from his being a trivial existence and changing himself into a much honourable one . No other systems of thoughts (for examples, Freud's theory regarding repression of all individuals' sexual drive and instinct gives rise to a collective civilization , Schopenhauer's or Buddhist ..) can point it out so clearly as what Taoist does...it is << 悟真篇>> not "Civilization and its discontent", when we talk about personal emancipation, that we should pay attention to.

 

Even Tantric/ Esoteric Buddhism, who recognises the importance of qi, does not describe so clearly such a spirit-body polaization ,such a split and struggle, such a human dilemma so clearly as Taoist does.

Edited September 14, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

Ugh, do I sound like that? I HATE that side of the teacher/student relationship.

It was my biggest pet peeve when trying to glean information from instructors over the years. I don't mean to do it for that reason, its totally because some of the info can't be directly spelled out because not everyone is ready to hear it.

 

Only the karma of the individual decides if they will understand what I am describing.

If you are at that point to step off your current plateau, the depth comment will send you into a whole new world of qi gong. (you being the general reader)

 

thanks for the mirror!

 

your hints are appreciated so are IDguest's!

[三江源]

your hints are appreciated so are IDguest's!

 

Little1, please explain what you are appreciating about the hints ?!!?!?