How does Taoism explain the existence of evil?

[rybak303]

I have been studying Christianity and its explanation for evil and pain in the world. I was wondering what the Taoist reply is to the question of where evil comes from and why evil and pain exist in the world, both in man and in nature? Does Taoism believe in Satan and sin as the cause for evil?

[Marblehead]

Hi Rybak,

 

This is one of those questions where no matter what the answer, the answer will never satisfy everyone. I say this just to let you know that I a prepared for the fact that you may not be satisfied with my response.

 

And I speak from only the Philosophical Taoist point of view so we must first eliminate all thoughts of gods and devils.

 

Tao is beyond good and evil. Philosophically, whatever is, is exactly the way it is supposed to be as a result of cause and effect, birth, decay and death, cycles and reversion.

 

Evil is a construct of man. We place our moral judgement on events and say that such and such is either good, evil, or it doesn't matter.

 

Pain is a physical thing. All living beings experience pain of one form or another. Just part of life.

 

Suffering is psychological. Even though we might be in pain we need not necessarily be suffering because of it.

 

Evil exist only because man has stated that certain things are evil. If one of these things that has been classified as evil has been enacted the evil has been done.

 

From the point of view of Tao, creation is the same as destruction, birth is the same as death, just changes in the dynamics of Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

[Iyoiyo]

The short answer is here: Taoism does not believe in anything, certainly not in the devil. it is not a religion.

Evil does not exist independent from humanity, in a sense it does not exist at all.

 

Also, should you continue to plumb the depths of Christianity you may want to consider that the Devil can not be the source of Christian evil . . . because God created him, and everything else. God either created evil, or he does not exist Q.E.D. This is a very old argument, but one that no theology has succeeded in resolving.

[Brian]

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[goldisheavy]

I have been studying Christianity and its explanation for evil and pain in the world. I was wondering what the Taoist reply is to the question of where evil comes from and why evil and pain exist in the world, both in man and in nature? Does Taoism believe in Satan and sin as the cause for evil?

 

The way I understand it, Taoism laughs at the whole concept of good vs evil. In other words, a Taoist perspective is that what's considered good and what's considered evil is relative and personal.

 

Have you read Chuang Tzu? Chuang Tzu talks about this issue pretty directly and it's a great text. Give it a read. I think it will be better than anything anyone will say here (including me).

[Birch]

Well I dunno what I believe but um "allowing humans as a group to rise beyond subsistance level by constraining members from applying that capacity to their own community" - FAIL?

 

I was thinking more "allowing some groups of humans to rise beyond subsistence level by constraining other groups from applying that capacity to their own community." Doesn't a "return to Tao" ensure existence for all or something?

 

Where's the "evil processes/good processes" argument again? As I have suggested before, unless the existence of "evil" whether they are processes or anything else is acknowledged then "good" won't get a look in. Don't "good and evil support each other"? Or something?

 

Doesn't Taoist thought consider "creation," "destruction" "opposition/hurting" cycles etc? It seems to me to be a bit more involved than just "good or evil". The stuff that is explained by TTC explains an escape out of dualistic thinking pretty well IMO but I haven't got into any cultural/civic society relativity stuff with it yet. I know there are more military/government references in there.

[Brian]

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[Brian]

...

[Birch]

I'll hopefully get back to this later about the fundamental "orneriness" of humans or not and whether "civil" society is a cause or an effect ;-)

 

You seemed to be arguing for the need for rules because of fear and lack of trust? Doesn't the TTC suggest that when Tao is lost then rules come into being? I wonder if pre-"civil" societies were actually more trustworthy than less but I don't know that either.

 

I don't knowfor sure, except the way I know for sure from my own experience having been brought up in a "civil" society, living in a few, having suffered in some cases for it and continuing to be an observer of it. Not in the same way as "Buddhist" suffering, although the ego our civil societies seem to currently be constructing is a nastier version of what it used to be IMO.

 

Mr Seeker, when you consider defending something, do you consider why you are defending it? - Not always because it is worth defending...?

 

Something I think is important is not to mistake "judging" for "naming". I see evil all around me and it is often called "for our own good" or "for your own good" or "for the good of humanity" or "health" any number of names that seem like they mean a lot of good things but when you actually see what's in front of you, well, yeah, it's basic evil.

 

Dressing it up in a hat and red claws and saying "Look at the evil over there in the night" is a really old trick.

[Martial Development]

I think the short answer is that because Taoism does not first presume the world is inherently Good, it is not compelled to explain the source of Evil. It comes from where all things ultimately come from--nothing.

[JohnC]

No such thing. You need good for there to be bad.

 

It's all perspective.

 

John

[Birch]

Yes it's "all perspective" (sigh) and from where I sit I often ask myself whether I like the view from here or not. But I'd rather not use a view of "it's all just perspective" to justify some people doing things that are patently cruel, demeaning, harmful etc to some other people.

 

So is this the point at which I am allowed to proffer a death threat and you will accept it as simple "just perspective"? Or should I abstain because I risk banishment? Or will I abstain because I don't think that threatening people with death just because we might not agree with each other's perspective is a "good" thing to do?

 

Note to mods, it's some questioning, not an actual death threat.

[Stigweard]

The short answer is here: Taoism does not believe in anything, certainly not in the devil. it is not a religion.

Evil does not exist independent from humanity, in a sense it does not exist at all.

 

A comment to this first ... apologies in advance for the critical tone, but to say Taoism is not a religion is an uneducated view.

 

Taoism is BOTH a religion AND a philosophy. Which came first? Which is more Taoist than the other? Fools questions really. Taoism arose out of the indigenous shamanic culture of China, thus, without being an organised religion per say, Taoist roots are religious in nature.

 

And yet it is also philosophically based as well being founded on the works of Laozi, Zhangzi, Leizi etc.

 

In the last millenia the formalization Taoism's religious branches is so well established that any mediocre student of Taoism should be conversant with it's basic principles even if they do not subscribe to the robes and rituals.

 

And it is definitely within these religious branches that 'evil spirits' are held as a reality. Some would say that evil spirits and their handling is the stock and trade of religious Taoism.

 

However, I am not a religious Taoist ... though on the comparative scale I am much more of a religious Taoist than Marblehead

 

So from my mystical/philosophical Taoist point of view, I will agree with some of the comments made already. "Evil" is just a name given by people. Being just a name or a descriptive then it can only be temporary in nature. For example the evils of times gone past are the accepted norm of today ... mini-skirts for example

 

Is it evil if I ended the life of a living being and ruthlessly chopped it's limbs from its living body?

 

That might cause you to react by saying "YES!!"

 

But what if I am just pulling up weeds from my garden, cutting them up and tossing them on my compost heap?

 

So "evil" is just a concept of the mind relative to social standards and world view.

 

From my view, there are merely things which nourish life and things which degrade life. For example, pure juice fruit is wonderfully healthy, whilst pre-canned rum and cola is not. Fresh garden veges are a boon, whilst greasy fast food is not.

 

Is that which nourishes more important than that which degrades? Do I place emotional or psychological emphasis on one over the other? Personally, yes I do ... I prefer fresh foods, I prefer clean water, I prefer good music, I prefer healthy relationships, I prefer clean environments, I prefer harmonious relationships.

 

So I don't class things as good or evil, I just follow my heart and are drawn to life nourishing sources in the same way that plants seek the sunlight.

 

[Marblehead]

However, I am not a religious Taoist ... though on the comparative scale I am much more of a religious Taoist than Marblehead

 

Hehehe. But we already knew that, didn't we?

 

For example the evils of times gone past are the accepted norm of today ... mini-skirts for example

 

Those were NOT and are NOT and will NOT ever be evil!!! Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Iyoiyo]

A comment to this first ... apologies in advance for the critical tone, but to say Taoism is not a religion is an uneducated view.

 

Taoism is BOTH a religion AND a philosophy. Which came first? Which is more Taoist than the other? Fools questions really. Taoism arose out of the indigenous shamanic culture of China, thus, without being an organised religion per say, Taoist roots are religious in nature.

 

 

This is a case of overlapping definition. In order to discuss things with others I must use words, Taoism is one, and different people mean different things by it. Knowing this makes me leery of talking or writing at all, but I inevitably succumb to my desire to explain.

 

The Tao is like a guy I saw in the grocery store a bunch of times, and later learned had a name: Steve. Steve is not what that person is, but that is what others call him. So, when I want to talk about Steve I use the name, instead of attempting to describe his every feature. The only reason I use the words "Tao" and "Taoism" is because the body of writing labeled as Taoist describes something that I wish to talk with others about.

 

My concept of taoism or "the tao" is based around something which is inherently possible to surround in rite or ceremony, therefore there can be no taoist religion, by definition ( of the word religion; which requires both a god, or gods, as well as structure).

 

And concerning the roots of "taoism," from my place I see that Taoism has it's roots in all facets of reality, it does not root from any one religion, any one continent, or any one people. If someone believes this to be the case, then we are clearly talking about two different concepts with the same name, again.

 

One analogy I have to myself is that the Tao is the mathematics of spirituality. I do not mean that it can be parsed out and understood through formulae. What I mean is that independent agents, unaware of each other, are capable of deriving the same a priori "conclusions."

[Stigweard]

This is a case of overlapping definition. In order to discuss things with others I must use words, Taoism is one, and different people mean different things by it. Knowing this makes me leery of talking or writing at all, but I inevitably succumb to my desire to explain.

 

The Tao is like a guy I saw in the grocery store a bunch of times, and later learned had a name: Steve. Steve is not what that person is, but that is what others call him. So, when I want to talk about Steve I use the name, instead of attempting to describe his every feature. The only reason I use the words "Tao" and "Taoism" is because the body of writing labeled as Taoist describes something that I wish to talk with others about.

 

My concept of taoism or "the tao" is based around something which is inherently possible to surround in rite or ceremony, therefore there can be no taoist religion, by definition ( of the word religion; which requires both a god, or gods, as well as structure).

 

And concerning the roots of "taoism," from my place I see that Taoism has it's roots in all facets of reality, it does not root from any one religion, any one continent, or any one people. If someone believes this to be the case, then we are clearly talking about two different concepts with the same name, again.

 

One analogy I have to myself is that the Tao is the mathematics of spirituality. I do not mean that it can be parsed out and understood through formulae. What I mean is that independent agents, unaware of each other, are capable of deriving the same a priori "conclusions."

 

Sorry champ you are taking liberties with this very culturally oriented tradition. Please don't use Taoism as a label to your idealism. Just because your "concept" of Taoism works for you that doesn't mean it is historically correct.

 

If you walked down the street in China and said, "I follow Taoism", they would probably stare at you in bewilderment and say, "Which one?"

 

Here's the facts:

 

Taoism, or Daojiao 道教, arose as a synthesis of Chinese philosophy and indigenous Chinese mysticism during the Han dynasty. From that point it has been an evolving conglomerate of very organized religious sects with various off-shoots, as well as the mountain hermit tradition.

 

The different sects place emphasis on different aspects of spiritual development. The more mystical (Quanzhen School 全眞 - Complete Reality), place their focus on spiritual evolution using meditation etc. to progress their quest of personal transcendence or integralness. Others (Zhengyi School 正一 - Orthodox Unity) are the more temple types with their main focus around rites and rituals which, conforming to the topic at hand, are very much about exorcising "evil spirits".

 

So, regardless of your conceptualizations, a large portion of Taoism in the modern world is very much a religion. Take it or leave it.

 

Please note that, with Marblehead staring across my shoulder, I am not saying, "Taoism is only a religion". That would be as ill-founded as your assertion of saying that it is not a religion.

 

And this is one of the beauties of the tradition, because everyone can find a way of enjoying the treasures that Taoism has. If, like yourself, you want to just enjoy the rich philosophy ... AWESOME !! But if, like myself, I also want to enjoy the mystical practices ... AWESOME !!

 

Just remember to be educated enough about the whole tradition Oh and if you want to play with the whole philosophy vs religion discussion then pop over to this old thread: The Relationship Between Religious and Philosophical Taoism - The Tao Bums

 

[Aetherous]

I like a few of the replies so far...

 

I think people second guess too many things, in an attempt to be correct. It's simple. Evil is what causes regret and harm to anyone. Who cares what Taoists think? Don't follow the herd. You know.

 

We are humans, and therefore shouldn't take an inhumane view of right and wrong.

 

Too much philosophy!

[betwixter]

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Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[Iyoiyo]

What is and is not does not depend on what you, I, or anyone says. I did not mean to claim any detailed knowledge of the Taoist religious sects. Of course I know there are many, that they're complicated, and full well that I don't understand their workings. However, this does not perturb me in the least. I neither want nor need to know anything about them . I merely wanted to say that there is no patent on meanings or names.

[Aetherous]

Also, including that little nugget, "and harm to anyone" in your definition pretty much implicates everyone much of the time

 

Yup.

[betwixter]

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Edited September 12, 2010 by betwixter

[3bob]

I have been studying Christianity and its explanation for evil and pain in the world. I was wondering what the Taoist reply is to the question of where evil comes from and why evil and pain exist in the world, both in man and in nature? Does Taoism believe in Satan and sin as the cause for evil?

 

True goodness is rooted in or to the Tao without fear; while an evil which trys to or does steal and twist expressions of such goodness is a thief and a liar who is very distant to the root and thus in fear. (at least)

 

Om

[Marblehead]

 

Please note that, with Marblehead staring across my shoulder, I am not saying, "Taoism is only a religion". That would be as ill-founded as your assertion of saying that it is not a religion.

 

 

Hehehe. You just knew I would be here, didn't you?

 

(Nicely expressed post, BTW.)

 

Peace & Love!

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Hi Rybak,

 

This is one of those questions where no matter what the answer, the answer will never satisfy everyone. I say this just to let you know that I a prepared for the fact that you may not be satisfied with my response.

 

And I speak from only the Philosophical Taoist point of view so we must first eliminate all thoughts of gods and devils.

 

Tao is beyond good and evil. Philosophically, whatever is, is exactly the way it is supposed to be as a result of cause and effect, birth, decay and death, cycles and reversion.

 

Evil is a construct of man. We place our moral judgement on events and say that such and such is either good, evil, or it doesn't matter.

 

Pain is a physical thing. All living beings experience pain of one form or another. Just part of life.

 

Suffering is psychological. Even though we might be in pain we need not necessarily be suffering because of it.

 

Evil exist only because man has stated that certain things are evil. If one of these things that has been classified as evil has been enacted the evil has been done.

 

From the point of view of Tao, creation is the same as destruction, birth is the same as death, just changes in the dynamics of Tao.

 

Peace & Love!

 

I totally agree!

This is great:)

[Marblehead]

I totally agree!

This is great:)

 

 

Thanks Leon.

 

Peace & Love!