Questions and Answers about Kundalini II

[Vajrahridaya]

Vajrahridaya,

 

This really touched me. Thank you.

 

May your sincere desire for liberation carry you through your trials and lead you to unending bliss.

 

Thanks so much Creation. I love your Kuan Yin by the way. My favorite "form" of Avalokateshwara.

'

'

'

Edited September 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[ralis]

rails,

 

 

Vajra,

 

Please ignore rails if he continues to attack you in this thread, and elsewhere if you can. There is really no reason for you to respond to him most of the time. And thanks for not hijacking threads anymore. I really do enjoy many of you posts.

 

I was critiquing what he writes. I do not engage in personal attacks.

 

ralis

[ShaktiMama]

Two very good questions! I would like to hear Tao's thoughts on them as well. I would invite him here, but given how Santi and Susan have been treated here and how in this very thread there is trolling going on, I would feel like I was doing him a disservice.

 

 

I think these videos are going to be a monthly service we do. I can go ahead and forward these questions to him.

 

s

[Creation]

But... thank you Creation. I'll do my best. Let's please keep this thread on topic!

Big love to you.

 

Now, back to topic.

 

About Kate and Taomeow's exchange.

 

I wanted to mention that it is not the dissolving techniques that makes a path Water or Fire. Frantzis says in one of his books that fire schools use dissolving, and many fire schools have the student develop the downward flow first for safety before bringing the energy up just like the water schools. The difference is that in a water school, you use awareness and dissolving progressively subtle aspects of your being until you get to pure consciousness, whereas in the fire schools, ramp up the energy and that takes deeper into your being. That is my present understanding, at least.

 

Actually, in the video, Tao emphasizes that when kundalini is going up the central channel, you should be relaxing sinking all the chi in the rest of the body as a safety mechanism. And Frantzis' sinking, scanning, and dissolving techniques do just this. So I don't think it is quite fair to say that Kate using dissolving as silly as Taomeow suggested.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Creation

[Taomeow]

Excellent post all round TaoMeow!

 

So, from what you're saying, it's looking like in my case it's not actually K? Or if it is then I am in some way headed for disaster?

 

No and no. I don't know what's happening to you and I don't necessarily view even the most drastic outcome as a disaster. What I'm saying is, based on my experience, that of other people (e.g. Eternal_Student's post corroborating my experience with his own), and books by Gopi Krishna who is a traditional authority on the subject, as well as my understanding of the nature of both the process and the obstacles gleaned from many other sources and experiences, it is not something you can have happening on the side while having the rest of your life go as ususal.

 

-Well, I guess there's "my" brake pedal I feel like I need to start all over again now

 

I don't want to be responsible for doing this to you, Kate! -- but let me ask the I Ching on your behalf? What do I know? -- nothing, except who to ask. Though as a general approach to any and all processes humans engage in, I have great respect for brake pedals. Susan said in her response that with kundalini it's like stepping from a mini van and getting into a Lamborghini. Sounds glorious... but the pragmatist, the taoist, the driver in me will still inquire -- does the Lamborghini have a brake pedal?

[goldisheavy]

Here's a question:

 

do you know how to put her back to sleep?

 

To a taoist this is the most crucial question. Taoists with a clue (which, granted, used to be a tautology... but we do witness a new breed of taoists, those without) generally avoid irreversible somatic and spiritual moves until they know exactly why and what for they're making them, choose the timing for the move with great care, and still make sure they have an antidote on hand in case they decide to backpedal. A genuine teacher I had the privilege to learn from tells the story of how he made the Pill of Immortality in his lower elixir field when he was still a child. His teacher promptly broke it to pieces, because it was untimely, too early. (Yes, they know the techniques for doing this, and the timing of all cultivation stages in sequence too.)

 

Even in voodoo, where they differentiate between the left hand path and the right hand path just as they do in taoism, both the houngan (the "good guy") and the bokor (the priest who "serves with the left hand") can create both good and evil spells (the good guy has to know evil so as to know how to deflect it, the bad guy has to know good so as to know how to thwart it) and fundamentally differ only in one respect: a bokor can create a spell that has no antidote; a houngan will never do that. It doesn't matter whether the bokor's spell is "good" or "bad" -- if he has no antidote for it, this is the very definition of an "evil sorcerer" to a voodooist.

 

So... do you have the kundalini back-to-sleep antidote?

 

I put my subtle energy largely to sleep because it is just an appearance without any substance to it (like all other appearances). As an appearance its only function is ornamental. I don't find subtle energy all that beautiful so I mostly keep it asleep. Sometimes it awakens because apparently I do enjoy some of its effects.

 

So you make an interesting point, as I notice you do often. Still, I disagree with one thing. Everything, bar none, has an antidote. If you think something lacks an antidote it's only because you are ignorant or you're experiencing a cognitive obscuration of some sort (such as a false assumption or an erroneous belief). There is nothing that cannot be undone. Nothing is permanent. Mortality is not permanent. Neither is immortality. Some things can be difficult to undo, but nothing is ultimately impossible.

Edited September 11, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Creation]

Thanks so much Creation. I love your Kuan Yin by the way. My favorite "form" of Avalokateshwara.

OM NAMO GUAN SHI YIN

 

Once again, back to topic.

 

So for Taomeow and Eternal_Student, and anyone else who feels qualified to chime in:

 

Is kundalini used in the Taoist traditions? They had to know about it, and it doesn't makes sense that they wouldn't have used it somehow, but perhaps not in the same way as in Yoga.

 

In yoga they say the reversal of prana and apana (upward and downward flow) triggers the awakening of Kundalini (the primal energy latent in the human body). In Taoist alchemy they say the reversal of water and fire ignites the body's true chi (yang within yin).

 

This sounds pretty similar to me, but not having personal experience with either it's just speculation. What do you think? Is this analogy just coincidental?

Edited September 11, 2010 by Creation

[Taomeow]

I can teach you how to turn it down, how to ameliorate the effects. I don't think it can ever be turned off once it's on. It is the strongest evolutionary driver for the body/mind/spirit. Once it is on, it is on. It would be like climbing back into the womb once one is born. Once the door is open it stays open.

 

This is why I always recommend this been done in the support of a group or sangha. This is why when I teach people they have my support for the rest of my life.

 

Having kundalini awakening is like stepping out of a mini van and getting into a Lamborghini. One has to do or know more than how to put a key in the ignition and step on the pedal.

 

There are definite phases of kundalini development that mirror the growth and development of the human life span. From conception to birth to toddler to child to the elder there are appreciable phases of development. I think that Anodea Judith's book, Eastern Body Western Mind, is a great modern book which helps put this process into context. It should be on every kundalite's book shelf.

 

Gopi is definitely the poster child for kundalini syndrome. He had no one to help him. Dr. Morris mentioned to me that once Gopi's wife changed him from a vegetarian diet to a meat based one (i.e. grounding him) he began to make a recovery and leave his bed.

 

People like to gawk and gossip about train wrecks. After all support groups are made for people who are having difficulties. When I was a new young nurse I was afraid of getting old because old people, in my experience, were sick and in pain, frail and miserable. Until I did more research and discovered that only about 10% of elders are chronic users of the medical care system did I gain some perspective.

 

In the almost 20 years of experience with kundalini and with teaching and advising people I do come across those who are thriving in the experience. I was one of those who had an explosive awakening in isolation and thrived. I used to feel out of place with everyone telling their horror stories. Then I gained some perspective.

 

It is part of the popular contemporary mythos that people who have an awakening in modern times would be shuttled off to the psychiatric care system. It was even thought that most schizophrenics are really having a kundalini awakening. Transpersonal psychology has grown out of the need to study the spiritual experience of mental health and dis-ease. This contemporary mythos can most likely be traced back to Dr. Gabriel Cousins work with Dr. Lee Sannella in the Kundalini Crisis Clinic years ago in the San Francisco area. Dr. Cousins has since retracted that opinion in recent years.

 

Kundalini Awakening can fall under the category of Spiritual Emergency in the DSM-IV, the mental health manual of diagnosis. Intense spiritual experiences can present to look like psychosis in Western Culture.

 

Qi-gong psychotic reaction is also a diagnosis found in the manual.

 

Kundalini awakening is not for everyone. One does not need it to make headway or progress in personal development. It is a great accelerant and so is to be respected. Kundalini is a living energy, a part of you that is designed to create a better you and a healing and integration of the body mind spirit matrix. When this happens one begins to live in a spontaneous concert with Nature rather than a knee jerk reaction to life. It is a process.

 

Susan

 

Thank you, Susan, this answers my question.

[Vajrahridaya]

Gopi Krishna who is a traditional authority on the subject.

 

He is actually only an authority on self awakening of kundalini. Abhinavagupta and Kshemaraja would be a better Authority in my opinion as well as other Siddhas of the Shaivite tradition both gone and living. When it's awakened through the Shaktipat of a genuine lineage, it's entirely different as one has an umbrella of protection extending from the living guide to guides who have left the physical plane who do things to protect you even if you are not conscious of it. I had this experience until I veered from my path, ignoring the warnings from these protective deities and my main living teacher as well as my living mentor at the time. Of course I went through trials, but the quality of my life immediately became better, flow like. I got any job I went to interview for. People liked me everywhere I went. People enjoyed the things I said all the time. Women of all types wanted to be with me and wanted to know what I was about. Then I veered from my path and absolutely the opposite happened. Of course I broke rule, after rule, and guidance after guidance in order for this to happen. I basically went back to my previous lifestyle of street criminal. I have since been clean and "good" for 10 years, for the most part with some faltering here and there. But, I still experience the "kundalini syndrome" in an unbalanced manor only due to the fact of some major trespasses against my Kundalini lineage and teachers and not due to merely having kundalini awakening to begin with. My kundalini process under professional guidance was very smooth.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

OM NAMO GUAN SHI YIN

 

This sounds pretty similar to me, but not having personal experience with either it's just speculation. What do you think? Is this analogy just coincidental?

 

Om!

 

I've read Wang Lipings authorized biography "Opening the Dragon Gate" and it sounds very much from his description of his transmission that he most definitely is a shaktipat Guru who helps awaken peoples kundalini but calls it a different name.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Taomeow]

OM NAMO GUAN SHI YIN

OM NAMO GUAN SHI YIN

 

Once again, back to topic.

 

So for Taomeow and Eternal_Student, and anyone else who feels qualified to chime in:

 

Is kundalini used in the Taoist traditions? They had to know about it, and it doesn't makes sense that they wouldn't have used it somehow, but perhaps not in the same way as in Yoga.

 

In yoga they say the reversal of prana and apana (upward and downward flow) triggers the awakening of Kundalini (the primal energy latent in the human body). In Taoist alchemy they say the reversal of water and fire ignites the body's true chi (yang within yin).

 

This sounds pretty similar to me, but not having personal experience with either it's just speculation. What do you think? Is this analogy just coincidental?

Based on what I've learned and practiced, taoism and hinduism (as well as hinduism's buddhist derivatives) are absolutely opposite processes because they are based on opposite worldviews and have opposite goals. The reason they are lumped together in the Western mind and form some generalized Eastern-flavored porridge in the head where a Judeo-Christian brain, displaced and disgruntled by the intrusion, keeps looking for a comfortable spot to rest and, finding none, gets intermixed with the rest of the porridge, is that they are thus lumped together in the way modern Western style exposure to them takes place. They are, in reality, separated by thousands of years of cultural developments quite distinctly different. East Asian vs. Indo-European. If you want to understand why taoist processes go downward from up and yogic ones go upward from down, I suggest meditating on the pyramid... I'll write some more, it's a very interesting question, but right now gotta run...

[Creation]

I'll write some more, it's a very interesting question, but right now gotta run...

Yes, please do. I will endeavor to keep my Western mind from lumping all things Eastern into a porridge.

 

If you would, please address why the Lingbao Bifa, which you practice, emphasizes that the process of alchemy is jing->chi->shen and cultivates the dan tiens startting at the bottom and going up, and why the founders of Quanzhen emphasized that Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism had essentially the same goals, despite different methods (the "Three Ways" and all that).

[Vajrahridaya]

Based on what I've learned and practiced, taoism and hinduism (as well as hinduism's buddhist derivatives) are absolutely opposite processes because they are based on opposite worldviews and have opposite goals.

 

I agree, the goals are not the same, but I still think there is a kundalini process at hand here. Just like the kundalini process of Buddhism and Hinduism as well as their goals are different in my opinion as well, though not as different as Taoism is from both Hinduism and Buddhism.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, please do. I will endeavor to keep my Western mind from lumping all things Eastern into a porridge.

 

If you would, please address why the Lingbao Bifa, which you practice, emphasizes that the process of alchemy is jing->chi->shen and cultivates the dan tiens startting at the bottom and going up, and why the founders of Quanzhen emphasized that Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism had essentially the same goals, despite different methods (the "Three Ways" and all that).

 

I think there are certain schools of Taoism that are deeply influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism due to cross pollination during the first centuries of the A.D. which might have seemingly similar goals. Supposedly even Martial Arts originates in India, but blossoms in China and Japan while it died for the most part in India.

[Creation]

I think there are certain schools of Taoism that are deeply influenced by Buddhism and Hinduism due to cross pollination during the first centuries of the A.D. which might have seemingly similar goals. Supposedly even Martial Arts originates in India, but blossoms in China and Japan while it died for the most part in India.

This is definitely true, Quanzhen being a case in point. Since Taomeow practices Quanzhen alchemy, I was wondering why she emphasized the differences instead of the similarities, if she thinks such cross-pollination compromises the fundamental essence of Taoism, and if so why does she practice those methods! I've been wanting to ask her that for a long time now, actually.

 

There was a tradition of marital, healing, and meditative arts in China before Indian importation began. Ledgends say it came from the West, Kunlun mountains and all that. Makes you wonder about a Bon connection? But in so many ways the Chinese stuff is so very different than Indian and Tibetan stuff. Hmmmm...

 

I know why you say Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism have different goals and in one sense I agree, but in another sense I think that they are basically driving at the same thing: liberation, freedom. One tradition goes further than another, or in a slightly different direction because of different ideas about the precise nature of the goal. Even so, many of the ideas are the same. Wisdom is wisdom, you know?

 

Maybe that is the porridge that Taomeow warns against. But it is not only Westerners who feel that way.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Creation

[Eternal_Student]

I would like to hear the story some time, Stephen. I wish you weren't 60 miles away or at least it seems that far. The traffic is just so horrendous. Maybe someday we can meet half way and have tea.

 

If you know how to treat Kundalini Syndrome may I refer people to you? It's always difficult to find a good acupuncturist who also understands about kundalini and chi deviation.

 

Susan

 

 

I would be most honored. I have had success in the past and am actually treating someone at this very moment for circumstantial kundalini awakening. That's why I was pulled into this conversation, via synchronicity. Yes, we must catch up at some point. If only I didn't have 5 classes this semester at the College, 3 days of usually booked clinic hours, and a newborn! Someday, I will be able to extend past the here and now. You have to remember to send me a flyer for the Acupuncture student board, there are lots of eager learners that I would be happy to send your way...

 

As for the question: what's it for?

 

All truth is relative to the person, place, time, need and situation. If I were to say I had THE TRUTH for all of Kundalini for all of time, I would be greatly overestimating my own wisdom. I would prefer to allow the expert the chance to answer the question, and she did.

 

But to give a synopsis of the purpose behind it at that moment for me, it was equated with death. You may take that how you please. Spiritual death, physical death, emotional death of habitual reactions. That's one of the reasons Glenn called himself Dr. Death!

[Taomeow]

I put my subtle energy largely to sleep because it is just an appearance without any substance to it (like all other appearances). As an appearance its only function is ornamental. I don't find subtle energy all that beautiful so I mostly keep it asleep. Sometimes it awakens because apparently I do enjoy some of its effects.

 

So you make an interesting point, as I notice you do often. Still, I disagree with one thing. Everything, bar none, has an antidote. If you think something lacks an antidote it's only because you are ignorant or you're experiencing a cognitive obscuration of some sort (such as a false assumption or an erroneous belief). There is nothing that cannot be undone. Nothing is permanent. Mortality is not permanent. Neither is immortality. Some things can be difficult to undo, but nothing is ultimately impossible.

 

Yes, I admit ignorance and a cognitive obscuration, if that's the way you prefer to put it, of the method whereby you put the toothpaste back into the tube after you've squeezed it out.

 

Maybe you could teach me someday? I am a student of Space-Time-Energy by methods of taoist arts, sciences and practices, but so far my taoist sources both live and written have been making it way complex... so if you have a simple handle on Time for starters, do share! 'cause saying "nothing is ultimately impossible" over an empty toothpaste tube doesn't fill it up, in my humble experience...

[gendao]

So for Taomeow and Eternal_Student, and anyone else who feels qualified to chime in:

 

Is kundalini used in the Taoist traditions? They had to know about it, and it doesn't makes sense that they wouldn't have used it somehow, but perhaps not in the same way as in Yoga.

 

In yoga they say the reversal of prana and apana (upward and downward flow) triggers the awakening of Kundalini (the primal energy latent in the human body). In Taoist alchemy they say the reversal of water and fire ignites the body's true chi (yang within yin).

Yes, they do. The difference is that they open the microcosmic orbit first...and then the chong mai (sushumna).

 

I think this order serves as a better safety mechanism.

Edited September 12, 2010 by vortex

[Creation]

I know why you say Buddhism, Taoism, and Hinduism have different goals and in one sense I agree, but in another sense I think that they are basically driving at the same thing: liberation, freedom. One tradition goes further than another, or in a slightly different direction because of different ideas about the precise nature of the goal. Even so, many of the ideas are the same. Wisdom is wisdom, you know?

 

Maybe that is the porridge that Taomeow warns against. But it is not only Westerners who feel that way.

I thought I should point out that I am not trying to say "It's all the same". I was pointing out that I think all three ultimately spring from a the basic human mystical impulse, the desire to be free in a sense that goes far beyond the ordinary meaning of that word.

 

Of course, that isn't even saying much because a lot of whacked out stuff comes from that impulse. I was merely providing a foil to Taomeow's insistence that Indic vs. Chinese paths are completely and totally different.

 

Yes, they do. The difference is that they open the microcosmic orbit first...and then the chong mai (sushumna).

 

I think order this serves as a better safety mechanism.

Opening the chong mai is not kundalini awakening. You can open a channel in many ways, even the central channel. Chia and Winn send "the pearl" through it. A couple systems I've seen use special postures and mudras that bring energy in and cause it to flow along the desired path. And of course, there is always leading chi back and forth through the channel a great many times.

 

None of these awaken your original chi or kundalini.

Edited September 11, 2010 by Creation

[Birch]

This is a great thread!

 

TaoMeow, yes please, do go ahead and ask I Ching on my behalf. Let me know what you think about the answer.

 

Eternal student, thanks for your concern and service to hotheads like yours truly

I would love to have an acupuncturist that "gets" what I'm doing but I feel that I need to keep this stuff under wraps with mine. I don't think I would even be able to explain it to her. She's been extremely patient with me but I sometimes feel it's like showing up at your psychologist's after taking LSD. Besides, you simply can't talk about such things with everyone.

 

It's bad enough trying to explain that I have a different opinion from others some days. Forget about trying to explain how the "you" that "you" think "you" are is not exactly what "you" thought it was but it's still "you". Especially to "oneself".

 

I appreciated your answer to the "what it's for" question. I like to think it's proof of the love that life has for me as a small idiotic thing on the face of this planet.

 

--nod to thanks for the existence of TTB's...

 

Susan, thanks for your answers. I'll definitely be tuning in for the next Ustreams

I have that Anodea Judith book - even before any of this started.

 

Thanks Creation for your take on mixing "fire" and "water" techniques. I like to think there also comes a point where the process drives and derives from itself, becoming something of a "middle path".

 

Vaj, your posts about different practices and worldviews was very interesting. As things move on, the more I keep seeing similarities in many practices and lots of symbolism too.

 

Ralis, thanks for your presence in this thread. You're a smart guy and I appreciate the rationality.

 

GIH. Hello I couldn't figure what else to write.

 

Man this place rocks.

[ralis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ralis, thanks for your presence in this thread. You're a smart guy and I appreciate the rationality.

 

 

 

 

 

The point I usually try to make is this. Whether one has a kundalini experience or even a non dual experience, it is still an experience. True believers have an incessant need to place experiences in hierarchical fashion. In general, this problem is created by the guru to attract students.

 

 

ralis

[Birch]

Whether one has a kundalini experience or even a non dual experience, it is still an experience.

 

THIS!

 

[Sunya]

Aren't you doing Mahamudra? That's an energy practice. Or if you are just focusing on Vipassana, that deals with awareness of inner energy.

 

Mahamudra is not energy practice; it's shamata and vipashyana, concentration and investigation. By energy practice I mean that there is no controlling of energy or intention of doing anything with it, there's certainly awareness of it as it's a naturally arising phenomena when the mind relaxes and incorporates a wider and deeper lens of viewing what's already there.

 

I should mention that I did a lot of Qi Gong and Kundalini work for a couple years and then gave it up. I'm sure that those causes had effects. When I met with Eternal Student and he gave me acupuncture, he told me that my energy just keeps wanting to go up. And this was just me sitting there half-asleep. I'm not sure if this is a good thing or not, but I don't really worry about the rising. If it does, it does.

 

I stopped doing all energy work and am now just doing mindfulness and investigation. I find energy naturally awakens this way but really isn't the goal of the practice. I think that the purpose of all spiritual traditions that aim for enlightenment is to, one way or another, dissolve energy into the central channel. I remember Tao Semko saying that this happens naturally if one does jhana (concentration). This 'central channel happening' can be forced (kundalini) or not. My opinion is that the safest way is to focus on wisdom rather than energy.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Sunya

[Sunya]

.

Edited September 12, 2010 by Sunya

[Vajrahridaya]

If you want to understand why taoist processes go downward from up and yogic ones go upward from down,

 

This is not always true. There are plenty of people who experience kundalini awakening in the Hindu and Buddhist tradition from upward to down. Also, our goal is to be really grounded in the now, on Earth, right here! Even in Buddhist practice, we practice developing Bodhichitta in the brain first, then bring it down, and up and down through the central channel. We eventually reach the non-dual, transcending such notions of up or down.

 

The chakra idea, is really just a focusing tool and not to be taken to be an inherent thing. It is all mind, there is no up or down, there is just energy.