Questions and Answers about Kundalini II

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

More beneficial, implies a hierarchy and preferences for a higher state of being. Further, to fall back on the worn out empty phenomena excuse provides no answer to my argument. Moreover, when you state a uniformity of emptiness in all phenomena, what you posit is that all phenomena are equal, which is contrary to having preferences.

 

I know, it's hard for the linear minded to hold paradox lightly and understand seeming contradictions as inter-dependent. From a fully enlightened perspective, there are no preferences, but, there are always two truths, ultimate and relative when discussing phenomena. Relatively, yes the preference for spiritual wisdom experience is better and higher up than lets say, robbing people and suffering the negative impact of this. In the spiritual path, we cultivate beneficial experiences in order to go higher up the ladder and build enough merit to free ourselves from the attachment to experience. But, during this process one accumulates enough merit to act through and benefit beings. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaches this and is in fact one of the first things he talked about the first time I met him. Nagarjuna talks about the two truths, and when talking about spirituality, we talk like this, referencing ultimate and relative, but as interconnected and not really dualistic because the ultimate in Buddhism is not a transcendence, but rather seeing the inherent emptiness and lack of self essence of all things. This is how awareness becomes non-dual by seeing what duality truly is from a state of pristine cognition. This is what Buddhism teaches and this is also what Rinpoche teaches. He talks many times about cultivating the experience of rigpa and integrating it with all levels of experience in order to self liberate all the physical/psychological knots which cause the mis-interpreting of experience.

 

In terms of kundalini experiences, I had a rather intense one during my retreat with Norbu in 1989. If you read the literature around phowa, the essence travels through the crown to a Buddha realm. Therefor, I would disagree that Buddhism is some lateral experience. Buddhism is very much about kundalini.

 

ralis

 

Sure there is this, but that is just a level of experience. There is both the up and down things that happen with individuals in Buddhism, but rigpa transcends yet embraces all of this equally. Also, dependent origination shows no primal source and shows primordial beginninglessness, so is not a top down philosophy or psychology in the ultimate sense while most others are.

 

Your kundalini experience was reflective of your karma. We still focus more on the heart and grounding in Dzogchen as well as fully integrating instead of just going up and up and up.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Can it really be this bad?

 

What kind of physical problems are we talking about here? Chronic health problems or pain? Serious health conditions? Stuff that takes 17 years to resolve?

 

Is this all detoxing or what?

 

And why did it wreck your life? Just due to the physical problems? Or also, as aforementioned, due to various life mishaps and "bad luck?" How exactly is it so dramatically life-changing?

 

It can be very bad if you don't follow the guidance of a master. When I follow the guidance of my Rinpoche, everything is wonderful and fine, and if I don't, everything sucks.

 

Surrender has nothing to do with manipulation.

[ralis]

I know, it's hard for the linear minded to hold paradox lightly and understand seeming contradictions as inter-dependent. From a fully enlightened perspective, there are no preferences, there are always two truths, ultimate and relative. Relatively, yes the preference for spiritual wisdom experience is better and higher up than lets say, robbing people and suffering the negative impact of this. In the spiritual path, we cultivate beneficial experiences in order to go higher up the ladder and build enough merit to free ourself from the attachment to experience. But, during this process one accumulates enough merit to act through and benefit beings. Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche teaches this and is in fact one of the first things he talked about the first time I met him. Nagarjuna talks about two truths, and when talking we talk like this, referencing ultimate and relative, but as interconnected and not really dualist because the ultimate in buddhism is not a transcendence, but seeing the inherent emptiness and lack of self essence of all things and this is how awareness becomes non-dual by seeing what duality truly is in a state of pristine cognition. This is what Buddhism teaches, this is also what Rinpoche teaches. He talks many times about cultivating the experience of rigpa and integrating it with all levels of experience in order to self liberation all the knots of interpretation of experience.

 

 

 

Sure there is this, but that is just a level of experience. There is both the up and down things that happen with individuals in Buddhism, but rigpa transcends yet embraces all of this equally. Also, dependent origination shows no primal source and shows primordial beginninglessness, so is not a top down philosophy or psychology in the ultimate sense while most others are.

 

Your kundalini experience was reflective of your karma. We still more focus on the heart and grounding in Dzogchen as well as fully integrating instead of just going up and up and up.

 

 

If you read my recent posts you will see that I am not as linear in my thinking as you so imagine.

 

Also it is unnecessary to lecture on the the intricacies of Buddhism and by extension the teachings of Norbu. Thanks anyway.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

Some see the cosmic serpent as if it were some warm and fuzzy pet!

 

That is in fact some peoples experience. Not so much a pet, but warm and beautiful, under the guidance of a living master.

[ralis]

It can be very bad if you don't follow the guidance of a master. When I follow the guidance of my Rinpoche, everything is wonderful and fine, and if I don't, everything sucks.

 

Surrender has nothing to do with manipulation.

 

Actually I asked several Tibetan teachers and they had no clue. Both these teachers are held in high regard. Norbu was not available at the time.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

So Rainbow Vein, who I am quite fond of, is terrified to the point that she worries about relaxing so much that she triggers a kundalini awakening, because of what has been written in this thread. Does anyone else think that maybe there is some unnecessary fear mongering going on here?

 

I do, because if you have a genuine lineage of masters as a guide and you follow the guidance with trust, you will be fine. I've seen this truth over and over again. Most of these problems happen due to pride and a deeply held lack of trust, which is part of the Western culture of hyper individualism. Many here hate the idea of having a Guru or surrendering to a guide who is vastly more experienced and far more perceptive of the subtle occurrences surrounding such awakening. This seems very much to be a more Western phenomena than an Eastern one, these kundalini syndromes. Gopi Krishna is a very rare Easterner and though he genuinely looked for a guide, he happened to be stuck where he was and honestly couldn't find one. This doesn't happen for most people in the East. Though of course, one should be sure about the Teacher or Master one is surrendering to, because if one does so to the wrong person, it can be disastrous.

[Taomeow]

Well, I am curious if you think Rainbow Vein's reaction is an appropriate one. Kate agreed that it was. Maybe I am just not taking Shakti seriously enough? I completely agree with you about timeliness, and every time I wonder about my own kundalini I am told "Don't worry about that right now.", and sometimes "Not yet" . But I worry that other people are getting worried.

 

By the way, thanks for taking the time to make such detailed replies to my earlier posts. I was wondering, from your description of Water and Fire paths, there should also be Wind, Metal, and Earth paths too, no? Do you know of any? And what is an example of a pure water path, that never uses the upward flow? And how would such a thing fit in with a the idea that a Taoist should be adept with all 5 phases?

 

As to whether caution is an appropriate reaction... I love to quote Castaneda (debunkers please relax, it's not about whether he was for real, it's about good writing) on the issue of the right attitude for approaching a serious practice (quoting from memory, and "man" is interchangeable with "woman" here, obviously):

 

"A man goes to knowledge as a man goes to war: with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge and going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and some won't live to regret it."

 

As for the Wuxing paths to take -- well, yes, there are Wood, Metal and Earth paths too, Metal being interchangeable with Air/Wind in some traditions. I know quite a bit about the Wood path, e.g. the official name for the shamans I worked with in Peru is vegetalista curanderos, "vegetalista" being of the same root as "vegetable," "curandero" of course of the same root as "cure," i.e. Wood phase healers or masters of Wood medicine. Knowing my own layout of Wuxing phases, I would never choose a Metal, Earth or Fire path (only in the light of my Wuxing reading does it become clear why my accidental kundalini initiation was, first of all, possible -- this kind of awakening, with minimal provocation, can only happen to someone who has plenty of Wood, plenty of Fire, and not enough Water in her chart -- so in terms of how cautions one should be with the practice, my take would be, as usual, it's individual --

-- someone with lots of Water and no Fire might not ignite kundalini in the longest time with the most diligent practice, while for someone with my kind of chart a spark might suffice... My 4P chart illustrates, with uncanny precision, why in my case it was so incredibly hot, so blindingly fiery, and so easy to start but so difficult to stop... It also illustrates why someone like me should never choose a Fire path... also, why at the same time she would be particularly attracted to a Fire path and forced to consciously go against the moth attraction... and so on. But my ears are burning, no pun intended... that book about individual choices of practices etc. based on one's personal Wuxing dynamics that I started... and stopped... sheesh, I've got to get back on track...)

 

So -- I'm not a believer in the one practice fits all roll call. Cultivation is about solving your existing problems, not creating new ones. An unbalanced Wuxing layout is a common and serious problem. The best cultivation starts out addressing that. So you are right, balancing all five phases is what you're aiming at -- but you can only do it by working so as to enhance the ones that are deficient and subdue the ones that are excessive. So you choose which phases you increase, and choose wisely because the dominant ones ("ego" to a believer in such a thing as an ego) will simply keep wanting more of the same, more of what is already excessive... to name just one false path an imbalance of the five can start one on. You asked me about Lingbao Bifa earlier -- well, that includes some great cultivation moves aimed at precisely this, balancing the five phases. You want to start there, and do bigger alchemy in a vessel that won't crack, catch on fire, get overturned by Wind, or grow moldy like damp wood... and so on. Once you have such a sturdy vessel, you use them all!

[Vajrahridaya]

Actually I asked several Tibetan teachers and they had no clue. Both these teachers are held in high regard. Norbu was not available at the time.

 

ralis

 

Ah, yes this can happen. Not every Tibetan Lama deserves the title. I'm glad that you did find some help though in a way that works with your particular psychological sensibilities. It seems that you did find help at least.

[Sunya]

Ah, yes this can happen. Not every Tibetan Lama deserves the title. I'm glad that you did find some help though in a way that works with your particular psychological sensibilities. It seems that you did find help at least.

 

I actually emailed that guy a while back.. Tom Adams who you quoted above about Tibetans and Kundalini.. and this is what he wrote.. Hope he doesn't mind me posting it:

 

This is a complex topic. I'll address a few of your points.

Shaktipat is not always safe, I've seen people bedridden afterwards, therefore it follows that kundalini awakening is sometimes quite debilitating. If you read all my articles on kundalini, then you know that kundalini isn't the problem, however it does accelerate the purification of one's fears, anger, depression, other mental/emotional attachments and physical blockages and pain. It is definitely not the "easy way" although it can be a quick way, but a more intense and painful process.

The Tibetan Rinpoches do not know anything about kundalini, I've asked them, and so they wisely decline to comment on it. I have helped an American in the Tibetan Buddhist three year retreat to heal from a painful spontaneous kundalini awakening, the Rinpoche could not help. Tumo is similiar to kundalini but the understanding and practices associated with it are very different. Generally, it can be said that Buddhists focus more on Wisdom and Hindu's focus more on Shakti {energy}, when it comes to the inner awakening process. I do not do kundalini awakening, I do not feel it is necessary. Consciousness rises up the sushumna naturally and more safely through mindfulness type meditation practices, although the deeper levels of detachment from ego are always going to be difficult

 

So it's clear then that Kundalini, as we know it, is not experienced by Tibetan Buddhists since many Rinpoches just aren't familiar with it. There has to be a reason why they do not experience that phenomena and yet still achieve enlightenment and even incorporate energy practice into the mix.

 

Theres a good book called Kundalini Tantra by a Swami, a famous teacher but I'm too lazy to google his name. PM me if you want the book. Very good book filled with exercises. Anyway he writes that you shouldn't even think about kundalini until you've done 2 years of regular Hatha yoga, worked on your mind, and purified your diet.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Sunya

[Vajrahridaya]

If you read my recent posts you will see that I am not as linear in my thinking as you so imagine.

 

ralis

 

Yes, I am finding some of your contributions here worthwhile. Thank you for sharing instead of just picking on me.

[betwixter]

MMPI et al show stellar normalcy, IQ is Mensa level (somewhat better than the requirements)...

 

You could power a small city with that! . In the day, I couldn't even get into my school's gifted program much less Mensa. They need to have a green eyed emote option.

 

 

 

Kundalini is similarly asleep for a damn good reason. Basically, it's the energy of human evolution, according to Gopi Krishna who wrote most informative books about the process (he awakened his kundalini after many years of meditation on the third eye, for hours daily, and what followed was a long stretch of years of full blast psychosis. While in India, the culture being familiar with the phenomenon and tolerant/acceptive of it, he wasn't locked up for life, in the US he would have been and fast.) y fire extinguishers in the KAP house?..

 

 

Gopi claimed he alleviated part of his initial suffering by focusing on clearing/enhancing the 'cool' flow through the ida:

 

"Could it be that I had aroused kundalini through pingala, the solar nerve which regulates the flow of heat in the body and is located on the right side of sushumna? If so, I was doomed,...the idea flashed acrooss my brain...to rouse ida, the lunar nerve on the left side, to activity, thus neutralizing the dreadful burning effect of the devvouring fire within....I brought my attention to bear on the left side of the seat of kundalini and tried to force an imaginary cold current upward through the middle of the spinal cord...Completely taken by surprise at this sudden transformation of the fiery current darting across the entire nework of my nerves only a moment before,...tasting the bliss of relief...unable to believe I was really free of the horror."

 

Once he did this, most all of the unbearable heat and much of the initial 'psychosis' was almost immediately mitigated. It seems much of his incipient troubles were somewhat unnecessary if at least those two channels were balanced in the first place.

 

And again, later in life he started meditating with vigor, and overdid it 'straining his already over stimulated nervous system to a dangerous degree'. After three months of torment, he had another 'flash' of insight to eat 'milk and easy-to-digest meat" every two hours, which relatively quickly helped him overcome this also. So it appears he overcame most of his 'disturbances' with pretty simple remedies, but for the fact that he had to flesh it out himself.

Edited September 14, 2010 by betwixter

[ralis]

As to whether caution is an appropriate reaction... I love to quote Castaneda (debunkers please relax, it's not about whether he was for real, it's about good writing) on the issue of the right attitude for approaching a serious practice (quoting from memory, and "man" is interchangeable with "woman" here, obviously):

 

"A man goes to knowledge as a man goes to war: with fear, with respect, and with absolute assurance. Going to knowledge and going to war in any other manner is a mistake, and some won't live to regret it."

 

As for the Wuxing paths to take -- well, yes, there are Wood, Metal and Earth paths too, Metal being interchangeable with Air/Wind in some traditions. I know quite a bit about the Wood path, e.g. the official name for the shamans I worked with in Peru is vegetalista curanderos, "vegetalista" being of the same root as "vegetable," "curandero" of course of the same root as "cure," i.e. Wood phase healers or masters of Wood medicine. Knowing my own layout of Wuxing phases, I would never choose a Metal, Earth or Fire path (only in the light of my Wuxing reading does it become clear why my accidental kundalini initiation was, first of all, possible -- this kind of awakening, with minimal provocation, can only happen to someone who has plenty of Wood, plenty of Fire, and not enough Water in her chart -- so in terms of how cautions one should be with the practice, my take would be, as usual, it's individual --

-- someone with lots of Water and no Fire might not ignite kundalini in the longest time with the most diligent practice, while for someone with my kind of chart a spark might suffice... My 4P chart illustrates, with uncanny precision, why in my case it was so incredibly hot, so blindingly fiery, and so easy to start but so difficult to stop... It also illustrates why someone like me should never choose a Fire path... also, why at the same time she would be particularly attracted to a Fire path and forced to consciously go against the moth attraction... and so on. But my ears are burning, no pun intended... that book about individual choices of practices etc. based on one's personal Wuxing dynamics that I started... and stopped... sheesh, I've got to get back on track...)

 

So -- I'm not a believer in the one practice fits all roll call. Cultivation is about solving your existing problems, not creating new ones. An unbalanced Wuxing layout is a common and serious problem. The best cultivation starts out addressing that. So you are right, balancing all five phases is what you're aiming at -- but you can only do it by working so as to enhance the ones that are deficient and subdue the ones that are excessive. So you choose which phases you increase, and choose wisely because the dominant ones ("ego" to a believer in such a thing as an ego) will simply keep wanting more of the same, more of what is already excessive... to name just one false path an imbalance of the five can start one on. You asked me about Lingbao Bifa earlier -- well, that includes some great cultivation moves aimed at precisely this, balancing the five phases. You want to start there, and do bigger alchemy in a vessel that won't crack, catch on fire, get overturned by Wind, or grow moldy like damp wood... and so on. Once you have such a sturdy vessel, you use them all!

 

Thank you for expounding on this difficult subject. Please continue.

 

ralis

[Vajrahridaya]

I actually emailed that guy a while back.. Tom Adams who you quoted above about Tibetans and Kundalini.. and this is what he wrote.. Hope he doesn't mind me posting it:

 

This is a complex topic. I'll address a few of your points.

Shaktipat is not always safe, I've seen people bedridden afterwards, therefore it follows that kundalini awakening is sometimes quite debilitating. If you read all my articles on kundalini, then you know that kundalini isn't the problem, however it does accelerate the purification of one's fears, anger, depression, other mental/emotional attachments and physical blockages and pain. It is definitely not the "easy way" although it can be a quick way, but a more intense and painful process.

The Tibetan Rinpoches do not know anything about kundalini, I've asked them, and so they wisely decline to comment on it. I have helped an American in the Tibetan Buddhist three year retreat to heal from a painful spontaneous kundalini awakening, the Rinpoche could not help. Tumo is similiar to kundalini but the understanding and practices associated with it are very different. Generally, it can be said that Buddhists focus more on Wisdom and Hindu's focus more on Shakti {energy}, when it comes to the inner awakening process. I do not do kundalini awakening, I do not feel it is necessary. Consciousness rises up the sushumna naturally and more safely through mindfulness type meditation practices, although the deeper levels of detachment from ego are always going to be difficult

 

First of all, I think he's wrong about a couple of things. Plenty of Buddhist Masters do know about Kundalini and they call it Chundali (which I think is more in reference to the moon) and it is utilized in our path and has been for thousands of years. ChNNR has mentioned it. We just awaken it differently and go about the process differently, precisely in order to avoid this "Kundalini Syndrome" that happens in those with more theistic tendencies in their conscious or sub-conscious. The Buddhists call it something different and don't treat it with the same type of philosophical understanding as they don't consider it a source of all things and thus because experience depends upon view, they don't experience it as an all encompassing force that takes over their life. The entire view is different because of dependent origination and the intention of the practices are different due to understanding emptiness. If someone has a wild kundalini experience, it's due to latent karmas in the system, past lives, whatever and not really due to how we go about awakening in Buddhism. There are in fact plenty of masters that know how to treat these syndromes or "kriyas" and even Tibetan Medicine doctors know what to feed someone who has these experiences. They are not treated with the same type of "aw" as theists do, as they generally think it's proof of God or a divine source or will behind everything. Buddhists just see it as personal karma meeting light and they do things to calm it down.

 

Lappon Namdrol spoke plenty about this with me during our 3 year arguments about the blatant and subtle differences between the Hindu and Buddhist approach to the theory and experience of enlightenment.

 

Second of all, I think Adam is quite right when he say's that Buddhism handles the phenomena of spiritual awakening with more clarity and subtlety of approach. It just seems more balanced to me. Of course, this is merely my own experience and opinion. Everyone needs something that is uniquely fitted to them. Everyone has their karma and the best path is the one that meets the person where they are at in order to unravel a specific knot.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Gopi Krishna and Irina Tweedie are two people whose books give an excellent account of the process.

 

I would be glad to entertain serious questions in regard to this process.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Daughter-Fire-Spiritual-Training-Master/dp/0963457454/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1284434258&sr=8-1

 

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=gopi+krishna&x=0&y=0

 

 

ralis

 

I felt that Irina's experience was more balanced than Gopi's due to the fact of having a Hindu/Sufi Master as a guide.

[Sunya]

First of all, I think he's wrong about a couple of things. Plenty of Buddhist Masters do know about Kundalini and they call it Chundali and it is utilized in our path and has been for thousands of years.

 

I don't think that Chandali and Kundalini are the same thing.. Both are Sanskrit terms and if they were the same, wouldn't the same term be used?

 

Using fire to create bliss/heat and dissolve into the central channel is different than a latent cosmic force that takes over and basically rips you apart. If they are the same then Buddhists would be experiencing the same thing, but they never talk about it so something is going on here..

 

So when Tom Adams wrote that Rinpoche (this is a prominent Kagyu Rinpoche who is the teacher of 17th Karmapa) didn't know about Kundalini.. he means taht the Rinpoche doesn't know about this cosmic force that when awakens tears you up since Tibetans never experience it and they don't seem to experience Kundalini syndrome either that's why he wasn't able to help 1 practitioner who had those problems during retreat. Now I just wonder why? Do Tibetans do something to prevent this?

 

and I do remember Namdrol posting that 'kriyas' are not seen as a good thing in Vajrayana. They signal an imbalance of some sort and you shouldn't really be having them if you are going about things in the right way.

 

So clearly different effects are being produced if there are different experiences happening.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

So it's clear then that Kundalini, as we know it, is not experienced by Tibetan Buddhists since many Rinpoches just aren't familiar with it. There has to be a reason why they do not experience that phenomena and yet still achieve enlightenment and even incorporate energy practice into the mix.

 

Yes, the handling of the entire spiritual process is different, as well as the energy of inner evolution towards complete liberation is different, because the idea of what exactly liberation is, is different for a Buddhist. For most theisms, it's merely peace and bliss, love and compassion, but these are just the 4 immeasurables or Brahmaviharas which cause one to be born into a Brahma or God realm/heaven/loka. The Buddhist definition of wisdom and the experience of this wisdom is unique to Buddhism due to the fact of the difference in world view and this leads to a difference in the handling of the process. Of course there is wisdom in all paths, but the insight of emptiness is unique and leads to different experiences and insights, as well as a different definition of what liberation/moksha/enlightenment is.

 

Theres a good book called Kundalini Tantra by a Swami, a famous teacher but I'm too lazy to google his name. PM me if you want the book. Very good book filled with exercises. Anyway he writes that you shouldn't even think about kundalini until you've done 2 years of regular Hatha yoga, worked on your mind, and purified your diet.

 

Yes, Swami Satyananda Saraswati. He is of the same order of monks as Swami Muktananda and Swami Chidvilasananda (Gurumayi). The Saraswait order of monks, one of orders initiated by Shankaracharya. Swami Satyanandas' Guru was Swami Shivananda of which there are two historically popular ones in Indian spiritual history and both were great beings!

 

I do agree with his approach as far as a Hindu approach goes.

 

Swami Muktananda just gave Shaktipat whenever and wherever to whomever and he said that he couldn't even help it... He was in constant psychic communication with his passed on Guru sitting in Siddhaloka, which exists... I've been there. Anyway, he said that Nityananda kept saying to just let it flow and give it without end, that it was time on Earth for such a thing to happen. But he did teach genuine techniques and he knew what to teach to individuals in a way specific for each person in order to help ground them and calm the effects, which only works if you listen. Many, many did and plenty did not and have kundalini syndrome. Of the many that listened that I have meet and have done the practice for 30 to 40 years, they are very well integrated and deeply realized. I would not say totally enlightened as I don't agree that their view can lead to complete liberation. But, they are very saintly, though not always conventionally so. My mother is one such person. She has never had any problems with kundalini syndrome after surrendering to her chosen path and Guru. Because she lives a balanced life, follows the command of her Guru from Muktananda to Gurumayi, eats right, does her practices unfailingly every day, exercises and studies the texts... thus, she has only really experienced the fluffy, soft side of kundalini and is very deeply peaceful and wise due to the fact of her complete surrender to her path and her Gurus. This is not easy for most people of any hemisphere of origin. It wasn't easy for her either, but she did it... though it took a little while, about 5 or 7 years of fighting it. But, once she did commit... smooth sailing!

 

Edited September 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

I don't think that Chandali and Kundalini are the same thing.. Both are Sanskrit terms and if they were the same, wouldn't the same term be used?

 

No, the same term wouldn't be used as the term denotes the experience of the energy. Not that the energy is different, but the way it is awakened, understood and practiced is different, thus the term associated with it's experience would be different.

 

Using fire to create bliss/heat and dissolve into the central channel is different than a latent cosmic force that takes over and basically rips you apart. If they are the same then Buddhists would be experiencing the same thing, but they never talk about it so something is going on here..

 

Yes, it's all due to karma and view, the handling is different, but the energy is not. One is still using the creative sexual force in Buddhism and transforming it from base physical creative essence into spiritual creative essence, just through a different and more conscious process IMO.

 

So when Tom Adams wrote that Rinpoche (this is a prominent Kagyu Rinpoche who is the teacher of 17th Karmapa) didn't know about Kundalini.. he means taht the Rinpoche doesn't know about this cosmic force that when awakens tears you up since Tibetans never experience it and they don't seem to experience Kundalini syndrome either that's why he wasn't able to help 1 practitioner who had those problems during retreat. Now I just wonder why? Do Tibetans do something to prevent this?

 

Now some actually do experience this, but they don't treat it as a sign of God, like they do in Hinduism or some forms of Christianity where they speak in tongues and have these "Kriyas" as signs of "God". Now this teacher of the 17th Karmapa might never have seen this syndrome because it is very rare to happen in Buddhism due to it's more water like and spacious approach, starting with awareness, then moving to energy, instead of starting with energy and moving to awareness like it seems much of Hinduism does, though possibly not all?

 

and I do remember Namdrol posting that 'kriyas' are not seen as a good thing in Vajrayana. They signal an imbalance of some sort and you shouldn't really be having them if you are going about things in the right way.

 

Exactly and it took me a long time to finally understand what he was talking about. I always took "Kriyas" as a sign of divine will due to my previous conditioning as a life long Hindu Theist.

 

So clearly different effects are being produced if there are different experiences happening.

 

Yes, but the energy is not different, just how it's understood, treated, and utilized, as well as practiced is different.

 

Just like for the most part, it is also different for a Taoist.

Edited September 14, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[betwixter]

 

and I do remember Namdrol posting that 'kriyas' are not seen as a good thing in Vajrayana. They signal an imbalance of some sort and you shouldn't really be having them if you are going about things in the right way.

 

 

Hi,

 

Can't the Kriyas or any 'spontaneous' form that arises be a somatic unwinding of deeply held energetic patterns? I thought that the fact that they occur is a sign of an imbalance of some sort, but also of the body's attempt to reassert homeostasis...which is a good thing.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi,

 

Can't the Kriyas or any 'spontaneous' form that arises be a somatic unwinding of deeply held energetic patterns? I thought that the fact that they occur is a sign of an imbalance of some sort, but also of the body's attempt to reassert homeostasis...which is a good thing.

 

Yes, I don't know if I can commit to a black or white view on this myself...

[三江源]

.

Edited April 27, 2015 by 三江源

[Birch]

"(only in the light of my Wuxing reading does it become clear why my accidental kundalini initiation was, first of all, possible -- this kind of awakening, with minimal provocation, can only happen to someone who has plenty of Wood, plenty of Fire, and not enough Water in her chart"

 

I had figured that yesterday when you were getting all heated about it

 

If I recall BK's book, he explained that his master determined that a water path would be best for him whereas he had taught fire up till then.

 

Maybe you should get on to writing that book

 

 

As to the somatic release stuff, well I think yes, that's it, but it need not be a violent affair. It can happen on cell-level if you get enough awareness into it. I've personally found that everything I back off from in meditation should actually be considered as an invitation to go there. Very gently. Sometimes there's nothing there at all, but the "wall" around it was causing issues.

 

Man, if we didn't have such a "mind/body" split here it wouldn't even be necessary to explain all this stuff, you'd just do it naturally.

[三江源]

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Edited April 27, 2015 by 三江源

[ShaktiMama]

Getting very hot for years on end , having rashes, being emotional, crying a lot, feeling intensely sexually stimulated so much of the time, being forgetful/out of it/ecstatic/whatever ... it sounds kind of like it 'd be menopausal, but no! It's Kundalini!

 

Is it something it does to one's hormones, Susan?

 

 

That would be the Western view.

 

The endocrine system is stimulated. Over all there is a general rejuvenation, youthing effect. Women who are past menopause sometimes become fertile again. I always recommend birth control to women who are past menopause once they start the kundalini path. (Chi and other internal cultivation methods can do this too.)

 

The fire path would be something analogous to the stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system. It feels really good but that's because a person's body is running on chemicals/hormones that are similiar to crystal meth and cocaine like the hormone adrenaline. The water path would be analogous to stimulating the parasympathetic nervous system (PNS) where you have the release of the calming, comfort hormones like oxytocin and dopamine. The fire path means the fight or flight response is engaged. This is a response that has short term benefits but is never meant to be maintained over the long term. If it is there are severe consequences.

 

The fire path can lead to adrenal exhaustion and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The PNS is the part of the autonomic nervous system that is activated with meditation, orgasm, bonding activities like cuddling and hugs, singing, chanting, prayer, etc.

 

Both systems should be in dynamic play and homeostasis with each other for the most beneficial effects.

 

s

[ShaktiMama]

No, the same term wouldn't be used as the term denotes the experience of the energy. Not that the energy is different, but the way it is awakened, understood and practiced is different, thus the term associated with it's experience would be different.

 

 

 

Yes, it's all due to karma and view, the handling is different, but the energy is not. One is still using the creative sexual force in Buddhism and transforming it from base physical creative essence into spiritual creative essence, just through a different and more conscious process IMO.

 

 

 

Now some actually do experience this, but they don't treat it as a sign of God, like they do in Hinduism or some forms of Christianity where they speak in tongues and have these "Kriyas" as signs of "God". Now this teacher of the 17th Karmapa might never have seen this syndrome because it is very rare to happen in Buddhism due to it's more water like and spacious approach, starting with awareness, then moving to energy, instead of starting with energy and moving to awareness like it seems much of Hinduism does, though possibly not all?

 

 

 

Exactly and it took me a long time to finally understand what he was talking about. I always took "Kriyas" as a sign of divine will due to my previous conditioning as a life long Hindu Theist.

 

 

 

Yes, but the energy is not different, just how it's understood, treated, and utilized, as well as practiced is different.

 

Just like for the most part, it is also different for a Taoist.

 

 

I have seen kundalini awaken spontaneously whether through a period of deep awareness and also as something as a result of an energetic catalyst. Sometimes its a combination. There is disagreement among kundalini researchers so it is difficult to say what's the best way. Basically, what's best is what is happening for you, what speaks to you.

 

From a medical daoist view, "kriyas" are signs of chi deviation. The type of kriya one has tells us which element is out of balance.

 

s

[三江源]

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Edited April 27, 2015 by 三江源