Avoiding re-incarnation

[FT88]

I know that in buddhism brahmans beleived that u were re-incarnated as something else when u pass and the cycle of suffering/pain/old age was repeated. Thus the buddah set out to avoid being re-incarnated and break the cycle. My question is are those in Taoism who follow the tao/what is natural not doomed to repeat the cycle? I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

[Lucky7Strikes]

I know that in buddhism brahmans beleived that u were re-incarnated as something else when u pass and the cycle of suffering/pain/old age was repeated. Thus the buddah set out to avoid being re-incarnated and break the cycle. My question is are those in Taoism who follow the tao/what is natural not doomed to repeat the cycle? I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

Well, you're already a part of the universe...

[Marblehead]

I know that in buddhism brahmans beleived that u were re-incarnated as something else when u pass and the cycle of suffering/pain/old age was repeated. Thus the buddah set out to avoid being re-incarnated and break the cycle. My question is are those in Taoism who follow the tao/what is natural not doomed to repeat the cycle? I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

 

The best understanding I can get from the reading of Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu is that upon death 'our essence' (I call this our personal Chi) (but not our physicality - it returns to the earth) returns to the Mystery. The Mystery, being the source of all manifest 'things' would then hold our potential to be something else. (Maybe the wing of a rooster.) 'Our essence' is what the Buddhists speak to when they speak to the subject of reincarnation.

 

Actually, we are infinite if you consider that our body is reused for something else, and 'our essence' returns to Mystery to perhaps be reused. No energy is ever lost.

 

Peace & Love!

[fizix]

You must be self-aware that you are a figment of your own imagination, that life is just a dream and there is no such thing as death.

[~jK~]

I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

 

I agree: If we become 1 with the universe we will be infinite.

To become 1 with the infinite universe is enlightenment.

Simply realize all is one is all that is.

The cycle is broken by understanding.

Suffering is the illusion.

 

We are here to evolve.

Reincarnation is Evolution.

We create our heaven or hell through our Children.

Our Children's Children are our next life...

Make your Children better than your life.

Then you will have Evolved.

This is the Chinese Way.

This is the TAO.

 

This is why I came to live in China - to live the Tao by becoming 1 with the TAO.

[thelerner]

You must be self-aware that you are a figment of your own imagination, that life is just a dream and there is no such thing as death.

 

Are you sure we're not dancing around the original question w/ semantics?? Getting into everything is a miracle territory, which I think of as very fuzzy.

 

FT88 is probably not a figment of his imagination, he's probably a real person who wrote the question and I'm a real person reading it. I'm thinking of a purple ape right now, that ape is a figment of my imagination, a class totally different from FT88 who's posting a pretty deep question.

 

For me the Buddhist answer is to side step the question with the very logical 'You won't ever really know, concentrate on whats important'. No one can tell you a satisfying real answer. You may be able to put yourself into a state (w/ long practice) where you'll get some understanding, but someone else telling you will never be anything other then conjecture.

 

 

 

on second thought maybe our answers aren't so different after all

 

Michael

[~jK~]

I agree: If we become 1 with the universe we will be infinite.

To become 1 with the infinite universe is enlightenment.

Simply realize all is one is all that is.

The cycle is broken by understanding.

Suffering is the illusion.

 

We are here to evolve.

Reincarnation is Evolution.

We create our heaven or hell through our Children.

Our Children's Children are our next life...

Make your Children better than your life.

Then you will have Evolved.

This is the Chinese Way.

This is the TAO.

 

This is why I came to live in China - to live the Tao by becoming 1 with the TAO.

It is why wherever the Chinese go they seek out other Chinese that understand

the TAO.

 

Look at the picture to the Left of this post - it is the oldest form of art on earth.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=flower+of+life&rlz=1W1GGLL_en&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=cbbd3991ae78bd94

It is found in every ancient developed civilization from the Temple of Isis in Egypt to the ball under the lion dog's foot in Beijing, China.

http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/p-articles/flower-of-life.php

It is the structure of family.

Edited September 13, 2010 by ~jK~

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Look at the picture to the Left of this post - it is the oldest form of art on earth.

http://www.google.com.au/#hl=en&source=hp&q=flower+of+life&rlz=1W1GGLL_en&aq=f&aqi=g10&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&fp=cbbd3991ae78bd94

It is found in every ancient developed civilization from the Temple of Isis in Egypt to the ball under the lion dog's foot in Beijing, China.

http://www.ka-gold-jewelry.com/p-articles/flower-of-life.php

It is the structure of family.

 

 

Great stuff!

Thanks!

[~jK~]

Great stuff!

Thanks!

It was a test to see how much you write and how much you plagurize - of course we all know the truth long before the test was passed out.

Not even a decent con ...

One look at your website is all it took to see that you ran dry a Loooong time ago.

 

My book coming out even as I write this ... it is being printed at Cambridge Press . . .

The copyright was from 09-August 09

They thought only propper to give a Little Copyright warning

Edited September 13, 2010 by ~jK~

[Gauss]

I know that in buddhism brahmans beleived that u were re-incarnated as something else when u pass and the cycle of suffering/pain/old age was repeated. Thus the buddah set out to avoid being re-incarnated and break the cycle. My question is are those in Taoism who follow the tao/what is natural not doomed to repeat the cycle? I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

 

 

You are right, everyone who achieves the Arhat fruit status or higher will be an immortal(until he drops down or decides to go down and incarnate).

 

I practice Falun Dafa exactly for the reason that Dafa allows me to achieve Right Fruit(Arhat or higher) and get out of the Samsara loop.

[goldisheavy]

I know that in buddhism brahmans beleived that u were re-incarnated as something else when u pass and the cycle of suffering/pain/old age was repeated. Thus the buddah set out to avoid being re-incarnated and break the cycle. My question is are those in Taoism who follow the tao/what is natural not doomed to repeat the cycle? I personally think if u become 1 with the universe u will be infinite

 

My understanding is that in Daoism the cycle is not viewed as a problem. It is suggested to learn how to be one with the flow of things so that you don't do things out of turn or against the tide of time. So if you move with the times and behave summerly during summer and winterly during winter, you can be at peace with the changes, and the cycles won't hurt you. You will have enjoyable time and experience transcendent bliss and be largely or entirely free of fear of death and disease.

 

The Daoist believe that humans suffer because they are not observant, and because they are stubborn. So humans behave winterly during summer and summerly during winter, and thus they suffer. So if you wear lots of clothing in the summer, you suffer. Then you run around scantily clothed in the winter and again you suffer. So you always act out of turn, and you always push and pull with brute force to get your way in the world.

 

Daoist texts teach to use minimum pushing and pulling, to use minimum struggle. In Chuang Tzu there is an example of a guy who jumps into the waterfall and survives. When asked how can he do it, he replies, paraphrased, "I don't fight the water. I allow my body to adjust itself with the water, and thus I am alive."

 

So instead of escaping the cycle, the Daoist remedy is to be wise about the cycle, to be attentive, to use minimum force, to act at the correct time and during the correct season and so on.

 

That's how I understand it.

Edited September 13, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Marblehead]

 

That's how I understand it.

 

Hi GIH,

 

That is nice. You done well!

 

Peace & Love!

[~jK~]

My understanding is that in Daoism the cycle is not viewed as a problem. It is suggested to learn how to be one with the flow of things so that you don't do things out of turn or against the tide of time. So if you move with the times and behave summerly during summer and winterly during winter, you can be at peace with the changes, and the cycles won't hurt you. You will have enjoyable time and experience transcendent bliss and be largely or entirely free of fear of death and disease.

 

The Daoist believe that humans suffer because they are not observant, and because they are stubborn. So humans behave winterly during summer and summerly during winter, and thus they suffer. So if you wear lots of clothing in the summer, you suffer. Then you run around scantily clothed in the winter and again you suffer. So you always act out of turn, and you always push and pull with brute force to get your way in the world.

 

Daoist texts teach to use minimum pushing and pulling, to use minimum struggle. In Chuang Tzu there is an example of a guy who jumps into the waterfall and survives. When asked how can he do it, he replies, paraphrased, "I don't fight the water. I allow my body to adjust itself with the water, and thus I am alive."

 

So instead of escaping the cycle, the Daoist remedy is to be wise about the cycle, to be attentive, to use minimum force, to act at the correct time and during the correct season and so on.

 

That's how I understand it.

To see the reality of the Tao - you got to live it. In China where it has been for thousands of years. It isn't just the book. It is also the philosophy, the language both written and spoken, the neighbors, the government etc etc etc.

[FT88]

I agree: If we become 1 with the universe we will be infinite.

To become 1 with the infinite universe is enlightenment.

Simply realize all is one is all that is.

The cycle is broken by understanding.

Suffering is the illusion.

 

We are here to evolve.

Reincarnation is Evolution.We create our heaven or hell through our Children.

Our Children's Children are our next life...

Make your Children better than your life.

Then you will have Evolved.

This is the Chinese Way.

This is the TAO.

 

This is why I came to live in China - to live the Tao by becoming 1 with the TAO.

 

A)Enlightenment is tricky...in essense enlightenment is just a spiritual elitism. Its born from the intellect. I personally feel u can go beyond enlightenment.

 

 

 

 

B )...Meh i think just the opposite. IMO its de-evolution. Ur going backwards persay..like u flunked a test and have to repeat it. Those who understand that nature is the manifestation of the godforce become infinite thus theirs no need to re-incarnate them.

Edited September 13, 2010 by FT88

[FT88]

Are you sure we're not dancing around the original question w/ semantics?? Getting into everything is a miracle territory, which I think of as very fuzzy.

 

FT88 is probably not a figment of his imagination, he's probably a real person who wrote the question and I'm a real person reading it. I'm thinking of a purple ape right now, that ape is a figment of my imagination, a class totally different from FT88 who's posting a pretty deep question.

 

For me the Buddhist answer is to side step the question with the very logical 'You won't ever really know, concentrate on whats important'. No one can tell you a satisfying real answer. You may be able to put yourself into a state (w/ long practice) where you'll get some understanding, but someone else telling you will never be anything other then conjecture.

 

 

on second thought maybe our answers aren't so different after all

 

Michael

 

Agreed.I wasnt looking for a defenitive answer, just wanted to spark conversation on the topic and pick ppls brains.

[gendao]

New Age rhetoric tends to be very vague, theoretical and ideological. Much of it falls under the category of "spi-fi" and mental masturb@tion.

 

Whereas Old School teachings tend to be very experiential, concrete & precise. Various states and levels have already been very accurately and concisely mapped out in some of these traditions.

Such a spirit is still bound by the laws of karma, however, and will remain so until Level 30 is attained. In other words, to ensure escape from the cycle of rebirth you must attain Level 30 or more while alive. Ultimate enlightenment results at Level 72, when all 72 chakras in the body are opened and the very last, located at the top of the skull, is allowed to bloom. At this point the yogi is one with the universe. - The Magus Of Java, p 190

Edited September 13, 2010 by vortex

[~jK~]

A)Enlightenment is tricky...in essense enlightenment is just a spiritual elitism. Its born from the intellect. I personally feel u can go beyond enlightenment.

 

B )...Meh i think just the opposite. IMO its de-evolution. Ur going backwards persay..like u flunked a test and have to repeat it. Those who understand that nature is the manifestation of the godforce become infinite thus theirs no need to re-incarnate them.

 

After experiencing an Enlightenment the next is step 2 - Each step is more intense.

Although...

If you have been there you would know it is not intellect - it is genetic knowledge.

 

There is only one way to de-evolve - suicide AKA: early death.

 

Enlightenment is only a repeat of an event we have already been through - but don't remember.

However - You're on the right track - 'just need to ride your 10 speed & meditate to see the rest. The real secret is a well oiled chain and good pressure in the tires.

Think I'm joking? what is there to loose by trying it ? 4 things to remember, Helmet,

I almost forgot the other 2: Be patient and enjoy the ride.

 

One other - Tunes ! http://magnatune.com/artists/albums/teng-enchanted/

Edited September 14, 2010 by ~jK~

[Sunya]

This is why I came to live in China - to live the Tao by becoming 1 with the TAO.

 

China is the Tao? interesting.

[Sunya]

Enlightenment is only a repeat of an event we have already been through - but don't remember.

 

Enlightenment is not an event. It is the gaining of an insight which can happen through an event but sometimes not. And sometimes when people have experiences they don't have insights either so they are not mutually inclusive.

 

It's also not repeating because if that's the case then that's not enlightenment you are talking about but an experience. You don't repeat the gaining of insights. Once you know your true nature there's no going back.

 

If enlightenment is temporary then what's the point?

[~jK~]

 

 

If enlightenment is temporary then what's the point?

 

Not you - that is a certainity.

Try this: The Chinese perspective is that of a Bagua (Bagua means Language of 8) it is also called Yi Jing (also Chinese) or I Ching (English version).

 

The Chinese see all things having at least 2 different perspectives and more than likely 4 with the movement of time providing 4 more = 8.

 

As such -

enlightenment has more than one point of view -

Thus more than one stage of enlightenment.

Thus a movement in time resulting in higher and lower levels of understanding at various points = Some are Temporary.

 

Very Sad the level of education.

 

mikaelz, you've been around TTB long enough to where you shouldn't be needing to be spoon fed information.

Edited September 14, 2010 by ~jK~

[rookie]

JUst reading the topic "Avoiding Reincarnation" asks the question "so you want to avoid this?"

Now I am not saying anyone in particular, just whoever whould want to avoid this world, this life.

 

Even though your mind may be full of stuff, this, right here, this now, this is it.

Wanting or trying to avoid this is just more mind stuff, more manipulation of experience in the mind.

[Vajrahridaya]

JUst reading the topic "Avoiding Reincarnation" asks the question "so you want to avoid this?"

Now I am not saying anyone in particular, just whoever whould want to avoid this world, this life.

 

Even though your mind may be full of stuff, this, right here, this now, this is it.

Wanting or trying to avoid this is just more mind stuff, more manipulation of experience in the mind.

 

I think the Vajrayana idea of illuminating re-birth, being conscious of it, and even having power over it for the sake of benefiting beings is a much subtler approach with much longer goals in mind concerning enlightened realization. As, what else are you going to do once you attain enlightenment and drop off your physical body? Go sit in a cloud all day and watching everything in detached bliss? I've taken that route, and it's not as integrated and full on enlightened in my opinion.

[Marblehead]

Go sit in a cloud all day and watching everything in detached bliss? I've taken that route, and it's not as integrated and full on enlightened in my opinion.

 

I think that would be extremely boring and a total waste of a life.

 

Just my opinion. Oh!, Yes!, I have many opinions. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

I think that would be extremely boring and a total waste of a life.

 

Just my opinion. Oh!, Yes!, I have many opinions. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Well, I think it can be part of someones process for a bit, you know, detached and blissful contemplation from a birds eye view. But... it's not the ideal in my opinion.

[rookie]

I think the Vajrayana idea of illuminating re-birth, being conscious of it, and even having power over it for the sake of benefiting beings is a much subtler approach with much longer goals in mind concerning enlightened realization. As, what else are you going to do once you attain enlightenment and drop off your physical body? Go sit in a cloud all day and watching everything in detached bliss? I've taken that route, and it's not as integrated and full on enlightened in my opinion.

 

That's all good as long as you have realized that. Otherwise it is pure speculation and you are dealing in concepts.

 

Why not pay attention to what is here and now, not some future speculation?

That's all.

If it sounds like I am picking on someone, no, nobody in particular. Could be I am just talking to myself