Virtue its importance in self-awakening - blog review

[-O-]

I have guilty pleasure – every now and then; maybe 2 or 3 times a year I peek my head around past teacher's sites and sites for communities I've been involved in etc.; to see what is going on or what has changed. I came across this blog post which has inspired some thought/shock.

 

Read it for yourself

 

 

The post is labelled "Virtue its importance in self-awakening" And starts off about grasping to lower virtues and how this leads to negative things along the path to awakening – however the rest of the post reads like a rough, undeveloped understanding of transference and ends off with this pseudo poem

 

 

"When a student comes to learn from you, they first respect you,

Then, as they become empowered, they like you even more,

then they love you for sharing the knowledge, making them feel important,

then they despise you for teaching them, because the dark night occurs,

then they hate you,

then they wish they never learned from you and wish you were dead,

then after your gone, they reflect on themselves, knowing they blamed their teacher,

Then they miss you and love you even more, but its too late the teachers gone."

 

 

 

What I have taken away from this is a diatribe about the exact point of view a teacher should not take towards their students.

 

In fact I see this a shining example of how to construct a blanket argument to not take responsibility for any negative impact a teacher may have on students.

 

I reads as an excuse - a rational to wash hands away from any adversity which may arise from students- which of course some of it might actually be founded.

 

The sad thing is this is being passed on to future teachers.

 

Blame the student is the main obstacle which prevents a teacher and teaching from improving. JMHO

 

Edit: It talks about students placing responsibility outside of themselves (on the teacher) but isn't this view point of a students progression an example of placing negative entanglements a teacher has with student outside of themselves - onto the student?

 

I think if this type of attitude is NOT taken then, as teachers, there is the opportunity to learn how to handle transferrence in a constructive manner.

Edited September 13, 2010 by -O-

[gendao]

Interesting timing for this post..

 

My dad leads a small exercise group and 3 guys have separately gotten mad at him now. Although he is an exceedingly nice guy, it becomes easy for "followers" in the group to project or take out their frustrations on him. Males, in particular, are more naturally prone to challenging the alpha male of their group.

 

After this 3rd instance, my dad said that it's better to be #2 because being #1 makes you too much of a target.

 

So, I can see now how teaching can also be a burden and why the Dao De Jing advises one to keep low like water...

 

 

Even if you are peerless in your behavior, some people will still heckle and argue against you - simply because you are the guy with the ball...

 

(Not to say that in other cases it couldn't also be mutual or vice-versa. I do think that some of the blowback in Kunlun could have been avoided if potential "detoxing" symptoms were warned about as much as the bliss was hyped. But the amount of negative feedback was still very minimal in comparison to the massive number of students taught.)

[-O-]

Interesting timing for this post..

 

My dad leads a small exercise group and 3 guys have separately gotten mad at him now. Although he is an exceedingly nice guy, it becomes easy for "followers" in the group to project or take out their frustrations on him. Males, in particular, are more naturally prone to challenging the alpha male of their group.

 

After this 3rd instance, my dad said that it's better to be #2 because being #1 makes you too much of a target.

 

So, I can see now how teaching can also be a burden and why the Dao De Jing advises one to keep low like water...

 

 

Even if you are peerless in your behavior, some people will still heckle and argue against you - simply because you are the guy with the ball...

 

(Not to say that in other cases it couldn't also be mutual or vice-versa. I do think that some of the blowback in Kunlun could have been avoided if potential "detoxing" symptoms were warned about as much as the bliss was hyped. But the amount of negative feedback was still very minimal in comparison to the massive number of students taught.)

 

 

Well, there will always be people who project and transfer etc. In the end the only way to deal with it is to establish clear boundaries in the roles before people invest themselves in the activity and then those boundaries need to be constantly re-enforced and held....

 

Detox is not what lead to the issues in the community - although detox became the catalyst and fuel. There are very specific things being said that appear to be small and insignificant but are the very things which are establishing the foundation for those issues later.

 

For a hypothetical example, if a teacher talks about his relationships with his teachers - there is an underlying message being sent or which can be inferred by the students - that message being "this is how I expect you to be as a student". To the person saying it, the intentions might different or even insignificant - however if the stories continue like that then eventually it starts to sink into the students that "this is the way to be a student".

 

The teachers I have seen that handle transference well have little or no reference to themselves or their own experience - and do not

rely on anecdote for validity - in fact they do nothing to address validity.

 

I have a friend that wrote a book on counselling. He presented it to a publisher which liked the idea of the techniques but said "it is un-publishable as it is...". The wanted more "stories" about his life etc. When asked why he was told "so the read can relate" - in other words - so the reader can "attach". If there is no self-importance, or as some wrongly use the terms "ego" in a teaching then it would read like a scientific journal - straight information. Personalizing a teaching - creating a community with a name etc - are grist for mill for the "ego" attach or identify with the topic.... if you do this then later you will have issues with peoples "egos".

 

It is not a small matter and is the very reason why there is strict conduct in the medical industry for behaviour between therapist and patients... it is another area where transference is nearly impossible to avoid.

 

When things get ugly it is the professional's conduct which is reviewed - not the patient's.

 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[LBDaoist]

For a hypathetical example, if a teacher talks about his relationships with his teachers - there is an underlying message being sent or which can be infered by the students - that message being "this is how I expect you to be as a student". To the person saying it, the intentions might different or even insignifigant - however if the stories continue like that theneventually it starts to sink into the students that "this is the way to be a student".

 

This is a good point that you bring up, and I respect my sifu a lot because he does the above very well. He has a way of telling stories that are absolutely relevant, while at the same time remaining non-referential. Another technique he applies involves addressing the class as a whole, yet when sharing an observation about a particular student, never addressing them directly and even going so far as to direct the comment toward another student (never by name, simply by body language and the way he faces when speaking about the subject).

 

The mind has a way of picking up on metaphor and story much more easily than it does with direct speech or instruction. I remember when I was studying NLP and learning about Milton Erikson, one of the things that was pointed out about him was his ability to tell stories in a way that they delivered a message to the person he was speaking to, without directly challenging any defense mechanisms that they might have.

 

I am still working on cultivating the above ability in my own practice. I have found E-prime to be helpful with the endeavor. It seems to help shift the mind into a different perspective in relation to the rest of the world. Although it can be tricky at first, it can pay dividends in the long run.

[Aetherous]

Interesting things to think over for me.

[Marblehead]

Interesting things to think over for me.

 

Yep. I think that this is an important concept, not only regarding teacher-student relationships, but with all the relationships we have.

 

Thanks for the thread -O-.

 

Peace & Love!

[-O-]

This morning, my wife, after reading this line "Then they miss you and love you even more, but its too late the teachers gone.", made a tongue'n cheek observation saying. "Now you know why he faked his death."

[Marblehead]

This morning, my wife, after reading this line "Then they miss you and love you even more, but its too late the teachers gone.", made a tongue'n cheek observation saying. "Now you know why he faked his death."

 

Hehehe. Leave it to a woman to find another side of the story (even if they have to make it up).

 

Peace & Love!

[-O-]

Hehehe. Leave it to a woman to find another side of the story (even if they have to make it up).

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Yes, I have to be careful. She is way more astute then I am. When I manage to make her especially aggravated then every word out of my mouth is "a reflection of my inner desires"

 

She says "How does this outfit look"

I say "Good"

 

She says "Why are you so threatened by other men?"

I say "wha...????!!".

 

She says "Well this outfit obviously looks ridiculous and you would have me wear it in public, so.... Either you are extremely hostile to women and want to humiliate me in public; or you don't want me to be attractive. I know the former isn't true because you are too naive to be so hostile; so it must be the later. So the only reason I can think of for you to keep me unattractive is because you are threaten by other men. Your Mother never should have let you walk home from school sooo young!!"

 

I say, " uh, duh... uh...- walk?? school?.."

 

She says "Well you should know you can trust me by now! And if you don't then you must have been mildly neglected when younger. You couldn't trust your Mother then to have you arrive home safely and you can't trust my loyalty to you now. Besides why do you want me to sleep with other men anyway. "

 

 

I say "WHAT?!"

 

She says "Every fear is a hidden desire. You're afraid I'll sleep with someone else. So you must be thinking of me with other men. My god you have a wife and child - you'd think your sexuality would have settled by now!

 

So what do you think of this outfit?"

 

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. What a blast!!! Belly laughs!

 

You too must have some really great conversations!

 

Sounds like your destiny is to be consumed by confusion.

 

My first wife wasn't quite that over the line but she sure did come close. Hehehe.

 

Your story reminded me of one of those e-mails that goes around. First was the woman's thoughts. Nearly a five thousand word essay of what was wrong.

 

Upon going to bed they have sex.

 

Then the man's thoughts: Today I played the worst game of golf in years but at least I got laid.

 

Peace & Love!

[Aetherous]

Your wife sounds amazing.

[thelerner]

I've always been amazed at the angry bitterness some people have shown for old teachers, even mellow ones who they've actually had relatively little contact with.

 

 

 

Michael

[-O-]

Hehehe. What a blast!!! Belly laughs!

 

You too must have some really great conversations!

 

Sounds like your destiny is to be consumed by confusion.

 

My first wife wasn't quite that over the line but she sure did come close. Hehehe.

 

Your story reminded me of one of those e-mails that goes around. First was the woman's thoughts. Nearly a five thousand word essay of what was wrong.

 

Upon going to bed they have sex.

 

Then the man's thoughts: Today I played the worst game of golf in years but at least I got laid.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

Well I get my jabs in there too.

 

We're both a bit introverted and tend to be a bit workaholic - so we sort of monitor each other a bit - remind each other to take a break etc.

 

A while back she was work allot of late nights. I don't normally say anything unless it goes on for a few weeks. It was coming up on about three weeks of this and we hadn't seen each other much. She called me at about 6:00. I knew she was calling to say she had to work late again.

 

I told I had our daughter at the sitters and a bottle of wine, fine food all laid out in front of the fire place... I said that it would be far more rewarding than "....spending the evening with her boyfriend."

 

Of course she jumps on the trust issue band wagon and as soon as she says "...you know I'm not cheating", I cut her off and said "of course you are just listen to me for a moment.

 

"... you’re in your office after hours. It is quiet. All the lights are turned off save for the calming light from your desk lamp. You have neatly stacked piles of papers clipped with shiny new bull-nose clips with a sticky note labelling each, and each is placed in a certain position on your desk according to priority.... and this feels warm and cozy to you, comforting like the warmth of a fire or bearskin rug.... Each of these piles are methodically making their way into the "completed" section of your desk and this is intoxicating to you. If you doubt me then remind yourself that each time you complete a task you say to yourself 'I should go home... I'll just do that one more thing...' like a bar fly says as each glass is emptied 'I'll just have one more for the road...' But you can't help it, the aroma of a task well done has the flavour of fine wine to you...

 

You sit and anticipate the accolades of a job well done once this work is submitted. The approval of your hire-ups and the envy of your colleagues... this waiting, anticipation is like foreplay to you. But there is nothing you can do until the morning so you come home to your husband, wooed, swooned and FRUSTRATED because you didn't get the satisfaction you were looking for.....

 

so what I'm getting at is

1) you are with your boyfriend now

2) My wine is of a finer vintage

3) my fireplace is warmer and most importantly

4) You will not be left unsatisfied!"

 

She says "I'm on my way"

 

EDIT: Of course I was bluffing. She walked in the door to find me in sweat shorts, a ratty old t-shirt; with my daughter under one arm, popcorn on my lap and a Disney movie on. She took one look at me and said "And you wonder why I cheat on you!"

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[-O-]

I've always been amazed at the angry bitterness some people have shown for old teachers, even mellow ones who they've actually had relatively little contact with.

 

 

 

Michael

 

 

Do I amaze you Micheal?

[Marblehead]

 

EDIT: Of course I was bluffing. She walked in the door to find me in sweat shorts, a ratty old t-shirt; with my daughter under one arm, popcorn on my lap and a Disney movie on. She took one look at me and said "And you wonder why I cheat on you!"

 

Well, I would say you owe her one.

 

I know about workaholic. I was one when I was in the Army. Everything had to be perfect. Even on training exercises I would sometimes go 36 and more hours without taking a break because I wanted to make sure everything was going properly before I felt I could rest in peace.

 

Peace & Love!

[Marblehead]

Do I amaze you Micheal?

 

Actually, I was amazed by the amount of anger that was displayed regarding the teacher/student relationship when I joined this forum.

 

We humans do like to pass blame but in most cases when something is viewed as negative it is due to a number of causes, not just one, ie, the teacher or the student.

 

Generally speaking, I think that if we take full responsibility for all our own thoughts and actions we will find little time left to be trying to pass blame on others.

 

Peace & Love!

[-O-]

Actually, I was amazed by the amount of anger that was displayed regarding the teacher/student relationship when I joined this forum.

 

We humans do like to pass blame but in most cases when something is viewed as negative it is due to a number of causes, not just one, ie, the teacher or the student.

 

Generally speaking, I think that if we take full responsibility for all our own thoughts and actions we will find little time left to be trying to pass blame on others.

 

Peace & Love!

 

 

I think where issues come up has allot to do with cultural context. So for instance the master-disciple, guru-student relationship comes out of an eastern culture where there is allot of emphasis on family and the head of the family. So while growing up in that culture there are subtlies on how to approach the relationships which are taught from very early. And the expectation that the labours o your life is to be contributed to the family - sort of family first - self second. Unquestioned obedience to the head of the family etc.... so along side of this there are master-disciple traditions which are build on this cultural context.

 

Then you bring that tradition into a different cultural context - like a western context which is more about stepping out of thy fathers house with an expectation to move further or beyond what those have done before - sort of a self first - family second. And then the cultural context and the tradition collide. A western student may then be in situation which inherently encourages transference and they have no real experience or "common sense" for it. There are not may relationships in the west where we are required to bow down so deeply, so unquestionably - so that can be taken too far.

 

So the way I see it is - if there is a solid distinction of this interpersonal dynamic then the relationship can be constructed in a way to to minimize and use the transference for benefit...

 

We come from a culture where we have beheaded the king, we question our leaders and have built a society around this questioning as a means to keep out corruption etc because in the past authority has perpetually been abused.

 

So that in mind how can we be surprised when we are critical to our "superiors"?

 

Titles and positions in the west do not come with inherent respect or admiration. We may walk into a court room and address the judge as "your honour" but on the golf course he is still call "Bob" And it is known that Bob the Judge is just as capable to screw up, get in trouble, make mistakes etc... So Bob is a man just like the rest of us - that is understood so we don't walk around having to remind each other that Bob the Judge is a man just like the rest of us.... but you change the title "your honour" to "sifu" and with that we are expected to behave to such an extent as to not question, or we should never criticise or have negative opinions... and that is akin to saying that "sifu" is not as capable to screw up, get in trouble, make mistakes etc like Bob. Sifu is somehow beyond reproach.

 

If I take a driving lesson, I pay my $300 and spend three days learning to drive on an oval track. Is it expected of me to have gratitude to the instructor? Not really I paid him my $300. But is I take a 3 day meditation seminar for $300 there is this sub-culture expectation that we should be really grateful to the person teaching the class - because they suffered so much to be able to teach, or they don't really have to do this for me etc... etc...

 

So I do believe that the hostility from the students allot of the time has to with the teacher and the way the relationship is formed.

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[-O-]

The other thing I notice that happens is this placement of blame on the results of the practice.

 

I had a teacher that had allot of personal problems with students - allot of muddled boundaries etc. He kept saying it was the students etc. He came to the conclusion in the end that the techniques he was teaching must have been too much for the students so he ran away to a mountain for a while then came back with a whole new set of things to teach.

 

It was pretty obvious to see that he just didn't have many skills with people. I mean he was charming and all - not awkward. But he dated within his student pool, his friends were all students currently or at one point. All of the relationships had this lopsidedness tipping to his advantage. He never abused that - but when situation came up where a friend would speak up - you know they have an argument - he would just kind of cut them off. Never talk them again. The people around him were always at arm's length.

 

It was kind of sad to see because there were no true friendships in any of it - all highly conditional. Any way, these new teachings didn't solve the problem - the troubles came back. So there was an effort to take responsibility - by re-evaluating the teachings - but there was also the tendancy to hide behind energy/meditations (its not me it is the energy/meditation). It was like using spirit and meditation as a crutch - the safe place to run to when things were too confrontational - it's not me it is the technique - or their dark night. etc.

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[Marblehead]

Hi -O-,

 

Well spoken on the subject. I really have nothing to say as you hit all the main points.

 

Peace & Love!

[-O-]

A strategy for dealing with malcontents: When my more astute half picks on me, I will wait patiently until she is finished. Then with as much sincerty as I can muster I will says "Thanks, Honey" or "great point!". After six year it still casues her a moment of shock and confusion. Just enough time for me to get out of the room.

Edited September 14, 2010 by -O-

[Marblehead]

A strategy for dealing with malcontents: When my more astute half picks on me, I will wait patiently until she is finished. Then with as much sincerty as I can muster I will says "Thanks, Honey" or "great point!". After six year it still casues her a moment of shock and confusion. Just enough time for me to get out of the room.

 

 

Hehehe. Yeah, I imagine a compliment in response to a bit of bitching would cause momentary confusion. Yeah, run and hide. Hehehe.

 

Peace & Love!