There no awakening for Kundalini

[goldisheavy]

With all this talk of Kundalini awakening, I thought I'd offer a different point of view.

 

Kundalini cannot be awakened any more than the blood flow can be awakened. You can become aware of your blood flow, but blood flow is always there and it doesn't need to be awakened. Kundalini is also always there and requires no awakening. In fact, thinking that Kundalini needs awakening can be a cognitive block, because if you believe in awakening you will be looking for awakening. And upon not finding it, you might conclude you have no Kundalini. Or worse, you might mistake some energy disturbance for "awakening." Imagine if you believe that blood flow has to be awakened. Due to the normality and mundanity of the blood flow you don't notice it. Then one day your heart skips a beat and flutters for 5 minutes. This is not exactly healthy, but you can take this for blood flow awakening and begin celebrating it. That's not exactly a good thing.

 

The awareness of anything, including of subtle energies in the inner being, is always a potential. As one's intention and attention settle on the energy, it naturally becomes more apparent over time. As your attention and intention drift away, the feelings of energy naturally pacify. That's how it is with all phenomena. So for example, if you begin paying attention to ghosts and if you intend to find them, eventually you'll begin seeing and finding ghosts. Then, if you turn your attention away from that and turn your intent away from the ghosts as well, the sightings dwindle, settle into the periphery and eventually disappear altogether. That's the magic of mind.

 

There is more to it of course. For example, intent has to be conjoined with beliefs that are aligned. If you intend something you dramatically disbelieve, nothing will happen. But as long as your beliefs allow it, attention and intent summon and disperse all phenomena without the need to formally awaken them.

 

It's like mold. You don't need to introduce mold into bread to get it to grow. The mold-potential is ever-existing. Just subject the bread to the right conditions and mold grows. You don't have to awaken the mold. The mold is there at all times. The same thing with diseases. We carry every disease in our body at all times but none of them manifest usually. When conditions are appropriate, diseases begin manifesting without any kind of awakening, initiation or formal introduction. That's why to be healthy it's not that you must avoid germs, it's that your immune system must be strong. Germs are always there. In fact germs are your friends as long as your immune system is healthy. If your immune system is healthy you can eat clods of dirt and rotten meat and not get sick. Unfortunately our spoiled, over-protected coddled modern lifestyle has damaged our immune systems somewhat, so we have lost some of these abilities.

 

There is no awakening of anything.

Edited September 14, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Birch]

Um, time doesn't exist.

 

The markers and contexts we look to to create a sense of time are our own creation. Which is why "progress" is a joke IMO.

[goldisheavy]

Um, time doesn't exist.

 

The markers and contexts we look to to create a sense of time are our own creation. Which is why "progress" is a joke IMO.

 

I agree, but that's even deeper into the rabbit hole.

 

I think people can still get everything they want out of the Kundalini without the notion of "awakening." No need to plunge people into nihilism.

 

So in this sense, awakening is any time you decide to begin to pay attention to Kundalini. This makes the awakening part easier and more natural. I think putting so much burden and emphasis on awakening is a mistake. The burden consists of ideas that Kundalini is special, stupendous, unpredictably dangerous, and that only certain people can awaken it, and other ideas of similar nature. And the emphasis is the idea that to be spiritual one has to have Kundalini awakened. It's the idea that without Kundalini one's spirituality is lacking.

 

While ultimately there may be no progress, people still like to experience changes and they like to create a personal narrative of evolution, of movement, or of a journey. My goal is not so much to deny the narrative, but to make it smoother, easier and more flexible.

Edited September 14, 2010 by goldisheavy

[rookie]

gold...

I really like how you said that.

It seems that as long as one is looking with the mind and in the mind, that is all that will be found. More mind content, more drama, story,...... whatever one believes and wants to see they will see.

[JohnC]

Both self improvement, and self acceptance.

 

There is no progress... and yet you seem to progress if you practice...

 

John

[dwai]

With all this talk of Kundalini awakening, I thought I'd offer a different point of view.

 

Kundalini cannot be awakened any more than the blood flow can be awakened. You can become aware of your blood flow, but blood flow is always there and it doesn't need to be awakened. Kundalini is also always there and requires no awakening. In fact, thinking that Kundalini needs awakening can be a cognitive block, because if you believe in awakening you will be looking for awakening. And upon not finding it, you might conclude you have no Kundalini. Or worse, you might mistake some energy disturbance for "awakening." Imagine if you believe that blood flow has to be awakened. Due to the normality and mundanity of the blood flow you don't notice it. Then one day your heart skips a beat and flutters for 5 minutes. This is not exactly healthy, but you can take this for blood flow awakening and begin celebrating it. That's not exactly a good thing.

 

The awareness of anything, including of subtle energies in the inner being, is always a potential. As one's intention and attention settle on the energy, it naturally becomes more apparent over time. As your attention and intention drift away, the feelings of energy naturally pacify. That's how it is with all phenomena. So for example, if you begin paying attention to ghosts and if you intend to find them, eventually you'll begin seeing and finding ghosts. Then, if you turn your attention away from that and turn your intent away from the ghosts as well, the sightings dwindle, settle into the periphery and eventually disappear altogether. That's the magic of mind.

 

There is more to it of course. For example, intent has to be conjoined with beliefs that are aligned. If you intend something you dramatically disbelieve, nothing will happen. But as long as your beliefs allow it, attention and intent summon and disperse all phenomena without the need to formally awaken them.

 

It's like mold. You don't need to introduce mold into bread to get it to grow. The mold-potential is ever-existing. Just subject the bread to the right conditions and mold grows. You don't have to awaken the mold. The mold is there at all times. The same thing with diseases. We carry every disease in our body at all times but none of them manifest usually. When conditions are appropriate, diseases begin manifesting without any kind of awakening, initiation or formal introduction. That's why to be healthy it's not that you must avoid germs, it's that your immune system must be strong. Germs are always there. In fact germs are your friends as long as your immune system is healthy. If your immune system is healthy you can eat clods of dirt and rotten meat and not get sick. Unfortunately our spoiled, over-protected coddled modern lifestyle has damaged our immune systems somewhat, so we have lost some of these abilities.

 

There is no awakening of anything.

 

 

Sorry...don't agree. Kundalini has to be awakened, in that the flow of energy has to be reversed, so it can climb from moola to sahasrara. It exists but it has to be raised up the central channel to transform consciousness from mundane to "really awake"

 

 

 

 

[rain]

With all this talk of Kundalini awakening, I thought I'd offer a different point of view.

 

Kundalini cannot be awakened any more than the blood flow can be awakened. You can become aware of your blood flow, but blood flow is always there and it doesn't need to be awakened. Kundalini is also always there and requires no awakening. In fact, thinking that Kundalini needs awakening can be a cognitive block, because if you believe in awakening you will be looking for awakening. And upon not finding it, you might conclude you have no Kundalini. Or worse, you might mistake some energy disturbance for "awakening." Imagine if you believe that blood flow has to be awakened. Due to the normality and mundanity of the blood flow you don't notice it. Then one day your heart skips a beat and flutters for 5 minutes. This is not exactly healthy, but you can take this for blood flow awakening and begin celebrating it. That's not exactly a good thing.

 

The awareness of anything, including of subtle energies in the inner being, is always a potential. As one's intention and attention settle on the energy, it naturally becomes more apparent over time. As your attention and intention drift away, the feelings of energy naturally pacify. That's how it is with all phenomena. So for example, if you begin paying attention to ghosts and if you intend to find them, eventually you'll begin seeing and finding ghosts. Then, if you turn your attention away from that and turn your intent away from the ghosts as well, the sightings dwindle, settle into the periphery and eventually disappear altogether. That's the magic of mind.

 

There is more to it of course. For example, intent has to be conjoined with beliefs that are aligned. If you intend something you dramatically disbelieve, nothing will happen. But as long as your beliefs allow it, attention and intent summon and disperse all phenomena without the need to formally awaken them.

 

It's like mold. You don't need to introduce mold into bread to get it to grow. The mold-potential is ever-existing. Just subject the bread to the right conditions and mold grows. You don't have to awaken the mold. The mold is there at all times. The same thing with diseases. We carry every disease in our body at all times but none of them manifest usually. When conditions are appropriate, diseases begin manifesting without any kind of awakening, initiation or formal introduction. That's why to be healthy it's not that you must avoid germs, it's that your immune system must be strong. Germs are always there. In fact germs are your friends as long as your immune system is healthy. If your immune system is healthy you can eat clods of dirt and rotten meat and not get sick. Unfortunately our spoiled, over-protected coddled modern lifestyle has damaged our immune systems somewhat, so we have lost some of these abilities.

 

There is no awakening of anything.

 

I love this. at the same time I know that I can become aware of/realize something..in a flash or..slowly. it happens all the time.

I followed Tao Semko's talk on Kap about kundalini, - simply marvelously clear.

Edited September 14, 2010 by rain

[Martial Development]

I've learned so much here over the past few days.

 

Tai Chi is whatever feels right for you, Kundalini cannot be awakened, Taoism is not a religion unless you want it to be, and the masters you invent are as good as any others...

[Seth Ananda]

With all this talk of Kundalini awakening, I thought I'd offer a different point of view.

 

Kundalini cannot be awakened any more than the blood flow can be awakened. You can become aware of your blood flow, but blood flow is always there and it doesn't need to be awakened. Kundalini is also always there and requires no awakening. In fact, thinking that Kundalini needs awakening can be a cognitive block, because if you believe in awakening you will be looking for awakening. And upon not finding it, you might conclude you have no Kundalini. Or worse, you might mistake some energy disturbance for "awakening." Imagine if you believe that blood flow has to be awakened. Due to the normality and mundanity of the blood flow you don't notice it. Then one day your heart skips a beat and flutters for 5 minutes. This is not exactly healthy, but you can take this for blood flow awakening and begin celebrating it. That's not exactly a good thing.

 

The awareness of anything, including of subtle energies in the inner being, is always a potential. As one's intention and attention settle on the energy, it naturally becomes more apparent over time. As your attention and intention drift away, the feelings of energy naturally pacify. That's how it is with all phenomena. So for example, if you begin paying attention to ghosts and if you intend to find them, eventually you'll begin seeing and finding ghosts. Then, if you turn your attention away from that and turn your intent away from the ghosts as well, the sightings dwindle, settle into the periphery and eventually disappear altogether. That's the magic of mind.

 

There is more to it of course. For example, intent has to be conjoined with beliefs that are aligned. If you intend something you dramatically disbelieve, nothing will happen. But as long as your beliefs allow it, attention and intent summon and disperse all phenomena without the need to formally awaken them.

 

It's like mold. You don't need to introduce mold into bread to get it to grow. The mold-potential is ever-existing. Just subject the bread to the right conditions and mold grows. You don't have to awaken the mold. The mold is there at all times. The same thing with diseases. We carry every disease in our body at all times but none of them manifest usually. When conditions are appropriate, diseases begin manifesting without any kind of awakening, initiation or formal introduction. That's why to be healthy it's not that you must avoid germs, it's that your immune system must be strong. Germs are always there. In fact germs are your friends as long as your immune system is healthy. If your immune system is healthy you can eat clods of dirt and rotten meat and not get sick. Unfortunately our spoiled, over-protected coddled modern lifestyle has damaged our immune systems somewhat, so we have lost some of these abilities.

 

There is no awakening of anything.

Do not worry Gold, I would never accuse 'You' of being 'New Agey'

but what worries me about this perspective (I do think it has some Good points in a way) Is that I hear exactly this in many New Age circles.

 

The Politically Correct New Age society, is terrified of being 'Un-Inclusive' to the point of ridiculousness.

In many watered down modern Traditions, (IMO most modern Tantra being the worst) they Have given up on even the Idea of Enlightenment (as none of the founders have any Idea of what that actually is) in favour of - We are all already Awake, as long as we are present and In the Now.

They tell people that Their Kundalini is Running if they Feel 'Anything' in their spine, their 3rd eyes are open if they see any Images in their heads and...

This is just blurry New Age thinking and wishing that everything was equal.

 

So when you tell someone who has not experienced Kundalini to focus on their Kundalini, how do they actually do that? Until they experience it, [sorry about the Time reference Kate ] ie after an awakening experience, when one can then differentiate Kundalini from say, a day at the office, How do they Focus on it?

 

Oh no I just Marginalised everyone who hasn't experienced Kundalini!

Do you feel judged and Inferior?

[not you Gold]

 

But all that being said, tradition does say that we would not be alive without it so it is running in a minute manner.

But still to Go around shouting "Yay I am alive! that proves my Kundalini is awake!" has no purpose other that to alleviate some spiritual jealousy one may be experiencing.

 

Big Love!

Seth.

[Sahaj Nath]

Do not worry Gold, I would never accuse 'You' of being 'New Agey'

but what worries me about this perspective (I do think it has some Good points in a way) Is that I hear exactly this in many New Age circles.

 

The Politically Correct New Age society, is terrified of being 'Un-Inclusive' to the point of ridiculousness.

In many watered down modern Traditions, (IMO most modern Tantra being the worst) they Have given up on even the Idea of Enlightenment (as none of the founders have any Idea of what that actually is) in favour of - We are all already Awake, as long as we are present and In the Now.

They tell people that Their Kundalini is Running if they Feel 'Anything' in their spine, their 3rd eyes are open if they see any Images in their heads and...

This is just blurry New Age thinking and wishing that everything was equal.

 

So when you tell someone who has not experienced Kundalini to focus on their Kundalini, how do they actually do that? Until they experience it, [sorry about the Time reference Kate ] ie after an awakening experience, when one can then differentiate Kundalini from say, a day at the office, How do they Focus on it?

 

Oh no I just Marginalised everyone who hasn't experienced Kundalini!

Do you feel judged and Inferior?

[not you Gold]

 

But all that being said, tradition does say that we would not be alive without it so it is running in a minute manner.

But still to Go around shouting "Yay I am alive! that proves my Kundalini is awake!" has no purpose other that to alleviate some spiritual jealousy one may be experiencing.

 

Big Love!

Seth.

 

 

+1

 

i think i'll ride Seth's coat tails for a while before i jump into the conversation.

 

but i'll offer this:

 

it might be beneficial to consider the paradoxical union of Being AND Becoming. there is an Unborn, Undying, Unchanging, and there is also an evolutionary Universe. it's not easy to talk about it because it's necessarily irrational.

 

Samsara is illusory. Nirvana alone is real. Nirvana IS Samsara.

 

[3bob]

+1

 

i think i'll ride Seth's coat tails for a while before i jump into the conversation.

 

but i'll offer this:

 

it might be beneficial to consider the paradoxical union of Being AND Becoming. there is an Unborn, Undying, Unchanging, and there is also an evolutionary Universe. it's not easy to talk about it because it's necessarily irrational.

 

Samsara is illusory. Nirvana alone is real. Nirvana IS Samsara.

 

 

 

"Samsara is illusory. Nirvana alone is real. Nirvana IS Samsara. "

Edited September 15, 2010 by 3bob

[Taomeow]

I've learned so much here over the past few days.

 

Tai Chi is whatever feels right for you, Kundalini cannot be awakened, Taoism is not a religion unless you want it to be, and the masters you invent are as good as any others...

 

Oh brother... I feel your pain as my own.

[Ramon25]

With all this talk of Kundalini awakening, I thought I'd offer a different point of view.

 

Kundalini cannot be awakened any more than the blood flow can be awakened. You can become aware of your blood flow, but blood flow is always there and it doesn't need to be awakened. Kundalini is also always there and requires no awakening. In fact, thinking that Kundalini needs awakening can be a cognitive block, because if you believe in awakening you will be looking for awakening. And upon not finding it, you might conclude you have no Kundalini. Or worse, you might mistake some energy disturbance for "awakening." Imagine if you believe that blood flow has to be awakened. Due to the normality and mundanity of the blood flow you don't notice it. Then one day your heart skips a beat and flutters for 5 minutes. This is not exactly healthy, but you can take this for blood flow awakening and begin celebrating it. That's not exactly a good thing.

 

The awareness of anything, including of subtle energies in the inner being, is always a potential. As one's intention and attention settle on the energy, it naturally becomes more apparent over time. As your attention and intention drift away, the feelings of energy naturally pacify. That's how it is with all phenomena. So for example, if you begin paying attention to ghosts and if you intend to find them, eventually you'll begin seeing and finding ghosts. Then, if you turn your attention away from that and turn your intent away from the ghosts as well, the sightings dwindle, settle into the periphery and eventually disappear altogether. That's the magic of mind.

 

There is more to it of course. For example, intent has to be conjoined with beliefs that are aligned. If you intend something you dramatically disbelieve, nothing will happen. But as long as your beliefs allow it, attention and intent summon and disperse all phenomena without the need to formally awaken them.

 

It's like mold. You don't need to introduce mold into bread to get it to grow. The mold-potential is ever-existing. Just subject the bread to the right conditions and mold grows. You don't have to awaken the mold. The mold is there at all times. The same thing with diseases. We carry every disease in our body at all times but none of them manifest usually. When conditions are appropriate, diseases begin manifesting without any kind of awakening, initiation or formal introduction. That's why to be healthy it's not that you must avoid germs, it's that your immune system must be strong. Germs are always there. In fact germs are your friends as long as your immune system is healthy. If your immune system is healthy you can eat clods of dirt and rotten meat and not get sick. Unfortunately our spoiled, over-protected coddled modern lifestyle has damaged our immune systems somewhat, so we have lost some of these abilities.

 

There is no awakening of anything.

 

This logic is so backwards and circular that it luaghable. Now that doesnt mean that I am upposed to it The fact of the matter is that it is all word play in the end. Because you can say that the mold is always in the bread all it needs is to be woken up, same as any disease,it is there and just needs to be woken up. Or that kundalini is always there and maybe WE need to awaken to that fact. OR maybe it is always there and needs to wake up. Like the buddah being awake and not asleep. I do however agree, that thinking it needs to be AWAKE can be a blockage. In the end it doesnt matter. As its not what it is but how we relate to it.

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[goldisheavy]

Do not worry Gold, I would never accuse 'You' of being 'New Agey'

 

You're free to criticize me as you please. I appreciate your gesture though.

 

but what worries me about this perspective (I do think it has some Good points in a way) Is that I hear exactly this in many New Age circles.

 

The Politically Correct New Age society, is terrified of being 'Un-Inclusive' to the point of ridiculousness.

In many watered down modern Traditions, (IMO most modern Tantra being the worst) they Have given up on even the Idea of Enlightenment (as none of the founders have any Idea of what that actually is) in favour of - We are all already Awake, as long as we are present and In the Now.

They tell people that Their Kundalini is Running if they Feel 'Anything' in their spine, their 3rd eyes are open if they see any Images in their heads and...

This is just blurry New Age thinking and wishing that everything was equal.

 

So when you tell someone who has not experienced Kundalini to focus on their Kundalini, how do they actually do that? Until they experience it, [sorry about the Time reference Kate ] ie after an awakening experience, when one can then differentiate Kundalini from say, a day at the office, How do they Focus on it?

 

Oh no I just Marginalised everyone who hasn't experienced Kundalini!

Do you feel judged and Inferior?

[not you Gold]

 

But all that being said, tradition does say that we would not be alive without it so it is running in a minute manner.

But still to Go around shouting "Yay I am alive! that proves my Kundalini is awake!" has no purpose other that to alleviate some spiritual jealousy one may be experiencing.

 

Big Love!

Seth.

 

OK, consider this. I've only ever heard of talk of awakening in Hindu schools of thought. So "Kundalini awakening" is a catchphrase. At the same time, I've never heard of Daoists talk of Qi awakening. Never. To the best of my knowledge Qi is always explained to already exist in each person. Sometimes people would even say things like "Well, if Qi flow didn't exist in you, you'd already be dead."

 

So, it seems to me not every tradition views the concept of awakening as a necessary concept.

 

Let's also look at it this way. There is a difference between someone who trains in a gym and someone who doesn't, right? At the same time, is there such a thing as muscle awakening? We use muscles all the time. Even weaklings use muscles all the time. Just because you can train to be 4 times stronger than normal doesn't mean you have to awaken your muscles.

 

And how about this. If you read about hypnosis, you'll find that hypnotists introduce the state of hypnosis as a natural state that occurs in every individual from time to time (if not all the time). Most people think hypnosis is something mysterious and strange, and the first thing most hypnotists seem to want to do is to disabuse you of that notion.

 

In any case, I am sure some people still like the idea of awakening and I don't want to deprive them of it. If you like your awakening you can have it. But if someone struggles with awakening, then what I am saying can be an alternative way of looking at it that hopefully eliminates some amount of unnecessary struggle.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Let me ask you one simple question because I sussed you out like some other users long ago:

 

What is a rationalist like yourself doing in a spiritual forum?

 

It could be that you are attracted to this path like vampires are attracted to blood.

 

I advice you to seek elsewhere.

 

Good luck.

 

I am a highly spiritual person. I am also highly rational. I don't see a contradiction. I guess I don't fit anywhere. When I hang out in atheist forums, some of them get angry at me for not being a physicalist and saying that the scientific method is not the only good method for gathering knowledge. When I hang out in spiritual forums, some people get angry because I insist on things making sense and being logically consistent. I am used to it by now.

 

For what it's worth, I never liked you either. You're a closed minded conservative douchebag from my perspective, who doesn't belong here. (I hope you don't mind, since you called me a vampire). Spirituality and conservatism are absolutely at odds from my point of view. To be spiritual one has to cultivate mental flexibility. Conservatives pride themselves on mental inflexibility.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Mokona]

You're free to criticize me as you please. I appreciate your gesture though.

 

 

 

OK, consider this. I've only ever heard of talk of awakening in Hindu schools of thought. So "Kundalini awakening" is a catchphrase. At the same time, I've never heard of Daoists talk of Qi awakening. Never. To the best of my knowledge Qi is always explained to already exist in each person. Sometimes people would even say things like "Well, if Qi flow didn't exist in you, you'd already be dead."

 

So, it seems to me not every tradition views the concept of awakening as a necessary concept.

 

Let's also look at it this way. There is a difference between someone who trains in a gym and someone who doesn't, right? At the same time, is there such a thing as muscle awakening? We use muscles all the time. Even weaklings use muscles all the time. Just because you can train to be 4 times stronger than normal doesn't mean you have to awaken your muscles.

 

And how about this. If you read about hypnosis, you'll find that hypnotist introduce the state of hypnosis as a natural state that occurs in every individual from time to time (if not all the time). Most people think hypnosis is something mysterious and strange, and the first thing most hypnotists seem to want to do is to disabuse you of that notion.

 

In any case, I am sure some people still like the idea of awakening and I don't want to deprive them of it. If you like your awakening you can have it. But if someone struggles with awakening, then what I am saying can be an alternative way of looking at it that hopefully eliminates some amount of unnecessary struggle.

 

I think the confusion may stem from accounts such as Gopi's wherein his book he describes it as something that wasn't there, then during meditation it suddenly and powerfully moved through him, then different effects on his mind body and soul followed. It just smacks of "awakening" Also, the whole train ride thing that people describe when it shoot up the spine, and then permanent changes that then accur to the person - it just *sounds* like something that wasn't *there* before or at least in force.

 

Does that make sense? Although IMO - I'd like personal experience of some kind so I could validate some stories just for myself. I'm just not that lucky yet it seems.

 

But yeah, that would be where just I see where different viewpoints would arise. Maybe just stemming from the experiences protrayed even in google searches of *Suddenly it blasted up* sort of stuff.

 

Edit: I should add: ~I don't know either way!~ (Done!)

Edited September 15, 2010 by Mokona

[~jK~]

When Meeting Total and Absolute Ignorance - it is best to reflect the action - by ignoring the originator .

Edited September 15, 2010 by ~jK~

[Gerard]

.

Edited September 21, 2010 by durkhrod chogori

[goldisheavy]

I think the confusion may stem from accounts such as Gopi's wherein his book he describes it as something that wasn't there, then during meditation it suddenly and powerfully moved through him, then different effects on his mind body and soul followed. It just smacks of "awakening" Also, the whole train ride thing that people describe when it shoot up the spine, and then permanent changes that then accur to the person - it just *sounds* like something that wasn't *there* before or at least in force.

 

Definitely. There is a lot of narrative that goes like this, and furthermore, I believe it (non-exclusively). These things can happen. At the same time, it doesn't have to happen like that for one. And two, if you examine the experience analytically (as I like to do), even in case of a sudden experience, there is still no awakening ex nihilo, that is there is no something from nothing, in plain English.

 

Does that make sense? Although IMO - I'd like personal experience of some kind so I could validate some stories just for myself. I'm just not that lucky yet it seems.

 

But yeah, that would be where just I see where different viewpoints would arise. Maybe just stemming from the experiences protrayed even in google searches of *Suddenly it blasted up* sort of stuff.

 

Edit: I should add: ~I don't know either way!~ (Done!)

 

Well, do you want to experience the suddenness? If so, it's probably best to continue believing in awakening. If you just want to experience all the stuff people talk about after their awakening, I think you can experience it easier by gradual training instead of setting yourself up for anything sudden. It's up to you.

 

And this has been my own experience. I feel the proverbial train rides up and down my spine at times and a crown or a hat on and over my head stretching into space at times, but I didn't get to feel those things suddenly. They gradually appeared. I can make them show up and go away much quicker than before, and I think if I practice this further, I can make these experiences appear and disappear suddenly as well. I just don't think suddenness is inherently valuable. Furthermore, I think of the energy in purely utilitarian terms. I don't think it's as magical as Hindus tend to think of it. In some Hindu thought systems, when Kundalini reaches the crown you become enlightened. I don't buy this kind of stuff at all. What's required for enlightenment is development of wisdom. Buddha was, for example, enlightened. At the same time, there is not a single Pali Sutta (to my knowledge, but please do prove me wrong if you can) that talks about Kundalini hitting the crown of the head. I don't know anything that's attributed to any of the six Zen Patriarchs, starting with Bodhidharma, that would extol the virtue of Kundalini hitting the crown either, or extol the virtue of Kundalini awakening.

 

So what I am saying is that there are a lot of perspectives. None of these alternative perspectives I am talking about are New Age. In fact, New Age itself is a massive borrowing of all kinds of non-new things. I don't know any idea in New Age that's actually new. I don't follow New Age but I don't find any need to speed derisively of it either.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Get the hell out of here!!

 

Seriously. If you don't believe me, why don't you and I take turns defining what it means to be spiritual and then compare you to me. I bet I will do fine at least under my own definition of the term.

[Mokona]

Definitely. There is a lot of narrative that goes like this, and furthermore, I believe it (non-exclusively). These things can happen. At the same time, it doesn't have to happen like that for one. And two, if you examine the experience analytically (as I like to do), even in case of a sudden experience, there is still no awakening ex nihilo, that is there is no something from nothing, in plain English.

 

 

 

Well, do you want to experience the suddenness? If so, it's probably best to continue believing in awakening. If you just want to experience all the stuff people talk about after their awakening, I think you can experience it easier by gradual training instead of setting yourself up for anything sudden. It's up to you.

 

And this has been my own experience. I feel the proverbial train rides up and down my spine at times and a crown or a hat on and over my head stretching into space at times, but I didn't get to feel those things suddenly. They gradually appeared. I can make them show up and go away much quicker than before, and I think if I practice this further, I can make these experiences appear and disappear suddenly as well. I just don't think suddenness is inherently valuable. Furthermore, I think of the energy in purely utilitarian terms. I don't think it's as magical as Hindus tend to think of it. In some Hindu thought systems, when Kundalini reaches the crown you become enlightened. I don't buy this kind of stuff at all. What's required for enlightenment is development of wisdom. Buddha was, for example, enlightened. At the same time, there is not a single Pali Sutta (to my knowledge, but please do prove me wrong if you can) that talks about Kundalini hitting the crown of the head. I don't know anything that's attributed to any of the six Zen Patriarchs, starting with Bodhidharma, that would extol the virtue of Kundalini hitting the crown either, or extol the virtue of Kundalini awakening.

 

So what I am saying is that there are a lot of perspectives. None of these alternative perspectives I am talking about are New Age. In fact, New Age itself is a massive borrowing of all kinds of non-new things. I don't know any idea in New Age that's actually new. I don't follow New Age but I don't find any need to speed derisively of it either.

 

IMO - However any sort of conciousness movement/vibration/chi experience should happen it's own way without my influencing it. I would prefer the unbaised and unfiltered approach. Is that in itself shaping my experience? Probably, I try even to drop the "I'm approaching this without an expectation of the outcome" too. Zazen really appeals to me.

[goldisheavy]

IMO - However any sort of conciousness movement/vibration/chi experience should happen it's own way without my influencing it.

 

OK, so that means the Chinese school of thought that "Qi follows Yi" is right out for you.

 

I would prefer the unbaised and unfiltered approach. Is that in itself shaping my experience? Probably, I try even to drop the "I'm approaching this without an expectation of the outcome" too. Zazen really appeals to me.

 

Choosing not to get involved is still a choice. You choose not to get involved and yet you expect a certain suddenness to manifest? If that's what you are doing, that's not what I would call unbiased. You are quite involved in the process. You've made your choice. And you have a biased expectation too. On the other hand, if you don't expect suddenness, there is no need to defend it.

 

I say suddenness can be experienced, but it doesn't have to be the only way to experience subtle energy. Is that too biased for you?

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Mokona]

OK, so that means the Chinese school of thought that "Qi follows Yi" is right out for you.

 

 

 

Choosing not to get involved is still a choice. You choose not to get involved and yet you expect a certain suddenness to manifest? If that's what you are doing, that's not what I would call unbiased. You are quite involved in the process. You've made your choice. And you have a biased expectation too. On the other hand, if you don't expect suddenness, there is no need to defend it.

 

I say suddenness can be experienced, but it doesn't have to be the only way to experience subtle energy. Is that too biased for you?

No, and I like that statement. As I currently see it, meditations and chi kungs don't always have noticable milestones to show "progress" - Sometimes changes are easy to spot though. When practcing Robert Bruce's NEW on my left hand my emotional state fluctuated wildly. Sometimes when practicing Tai Chi I get the giggles. As far as energetic experiences go, suddeness makes it even more difficult to understand and it gets on my nerves. One visualization I attempted produced a blissful feeling in my head. It was very strong. Although as of now I don't know what the point was, is it just the movement that is important to prevent stagnation or was the bliss a wholesome indicator and important as the fact that energy was moving?

 

I do expect suddness, at first - it feels more imprinted into my mind that things need to happen quickly. When in practicing Zazen this melts away, though. I feel much more relaxed as well.

 

These discussion really do help me think things out, one day it would be nice to practice with someone with alot more skill and experience.

[goldisheavy]

These discussion really do help me think things out, one day it would be nice to practice with someone with alot more skill and experience.

 

These kinds of topics are contrary to the physicalist mindset that is dominating our culture. So it's not easy to find someone genuine to practice with. I've given up on that. I made some attempts, but after not finding what I am looking for, I said screw it. I have a life to live. I can't hit the pause button while I am running around looking for a friend. Besides, I was born alone and I will die alone. I better get used to it. I like and welcome company when it's available, but if the company is not there life moves on.