There no awakening for Kundalini

[goldisheavy]

I've seen a few variations of its pathway...but my basic understanding is that is the core central channel that basically runs through the spine from huiyin to baihui - like the sushumna.

 

You do realize the story is changing as we speak? First it was from lower dan tien (which is 3 finger widths below the navel and in front of the spine rather than in the spine) to upper, and now it's from huiyin to baihui. I don't like this.

 

Look at the picture presented here:

 

http://www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Trees-TaoistAlchemy.html

 

Notice how it is significantly different?

 

I have a feeling there is a concerted effort to make it look like the Chinese and Indian schools of thought are the same when in fact they aren't. Furthermore, I would say most of the original alchemists were not materialists and yet now every effort is made to connect subtle energy to physical organs, which to my mind is very wrong and it basically castrates the whole practice.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Also look here:

 

http://www.lieske.com/channels.htm

 

Doesn't look to me like it's the same thing. Lower to upper dan tien is a different path from 1st to crown chakra.

 

In any case, I subscribe to the Complete Reality interpretation (given your first link). All these energy phenomena are revealing the workings of the mind. They don't represent some kind of objective forces in the body. Thus, it is ultimately not important what flows where and what is awakened or not.

Edited September 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[gendao]

You do realize the story is changing as we speak? First it was from lower dan tien (which is 3 finger widths below the navel and in front of the spine rather than in the spine) to upper, and now it's from huiyin to baihui. I don't like this.

 

Look at the picture presented here:

 

http://www.workofthechariot.com/TextFiles/Trees-TaoistAlchemy.html

 

Notice how it is significantly different?

No, just because it connects the 3 dantians...does not mean that it TERMINATES at the upper & lower ones. So no, I don't consider these depictions significantly different at all.

[goldisheavy]

Read about Kundalini here:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini

 

"Kundalini (kuṇḍalinī, Sanskrit: कुण्डलिनी) literally means coiled. In yoga, a "corporeal energy"[1] - an unconscious, instinctive or libidinal force or Shakti, lies coiled at the base of the spine.[2][3][4] It is envisioned either as a goddess or else as a sleeping serpent, hence a number of English renderings of the term such as 'serpent power'. The kundalini resides in the sacrum bone in three and a half coils and has been described as a residual power of pure desire."

 

So it's obviously not coiled in dantien and doesn't rise from there. Like I said, Kundalini is different. And listen to how it's described as residual power of pure desire. That's not the same thing as the description for yuan qi:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu%C3%A1n_q%C3%AC

 

I am not buying your stuff vortex.

[Ramon25]

So to be perfectly clear about my experience with kundalini. I dont think kundalini, needs to be awakened and yet i do at the same time. I have come to see kundalini as myself and myself as the universe, within those three different terms there are levels where each is separate and all is one. In their seperatness there is a feedback loop between them, making them one. Kundalini is the energy of life, so when it "wakes up" or We become "aware" of it, it intensifies. In that intensity, all the unconscious material we have goes through catharsis, the energy channels in the body suddenly intensify. It feels like an entity because it is us, at an unconscious level feeding information and our personal energetic signal into the universe, into the field. Then in turn the universe feeds info back at us, whatever we need to achieve what we desire or to become who we truly are. It is a process, a process of overload, blowing open our connection to the quantum field, enhancing our already present communication with. The unconscious is in contact with the field, it is in the field. So kundalini is all these things suddenly increasing in velocity and communication with the ego, the self. A marriage of the large with whole. The male with the female. It is in essence alchemy at its deepest level.

[goldisheavy]

More evidence to consider:

 

http://www.acupuncturecollege.org.uk/Chinese-Medicine/Glossary.html

 

Yuan Qi: Active and dynamically employed Jing.

 

Essence (Jing): A Substance stored in the Kidneys, responsible for birth, growth, reproduction and development.

 

So Kidneys is not the sacrum bone.

[goldisheavy]

Kundalini is the energy of life, so when it "wakes up" or We become "aware" of it, it intensifies.

 

OK, so then awakening is not to be taken literally. That's first. Second, you'd be dead if you didn't have the energy of life. That's another reason not to take awakening literally. So awakening then is a symbolic act, like adopting a new spiritual name when you begin on the spiritual path. You can begin the path without changing your name, or you can change your name to celebrate a new beginning. But either way there is no substantial difference.

[gendao]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundalini

 

"Kundalini (kuṇḍalinī, Sanskrit: कुण्डलिनी) literally means coiled. In yoga, a "corporeal energy"[1] - an unconscious, instinctive or libidinal force or Shakti, lies coiled at the base of the spine.[2][3][4] It is envisioned either as a goddess or else as a sleeping serpent, hence a number of English renderings of the term such as 'serpent power'. The kundalini resides in the sacrum bone in three and a half coils and has been described as a residual power of pure desire."

 

So it's obviously not coiled in dantien and doesn't rise from there. Like I said, Kundalini is different. And listen to how it's described as residual power of pure desire. That's not the same thing as the description for yuan qi:

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yu%C3%A1n_q%C3%AC

 

I am not buying your stuff vortex.

Actually, if the kundalini is sexual power stored in the sacrum bone...then it would likely correspond to the sacral chakra. Which would correspond most closely to the lower dantian.

Location of our Sacral Chakra: Lower abdomen, about 2 inches below the navel and 2 inches in.

But, if the kundalini resides in the root chakra, then it would correspond to huiyin. Either way, I wouldn't see a radical difference here.. Energetic experiences can be hard to nail down precisely by nature.

 

Anyhow, you don't have to buy, cuz I'm not selling...

Edited September 15, 2010 by vortex

[goldisheavy]

More:

 

http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=15298.0

 

Dan Tien is said to be around Qi Hai

[goldisheavy]

Actually, if the kundalini is sexual power stored in the sacrum bone...then it would likely correspond to the sacral chakra.

 

And by saying this you just contradicted the Wiki entry.

[Martial Development]

The awakening of Kundalini, cant happen in the Dao school, besides they form that kind of meridian, or the circulation which goes with it. So of course their can be no awakening of Kundalini, in the Daoist school of Cultivation. What most Daoists Cultivation ways form are a Small and a Great Heavenly Circle, like for example the He Che Heavenly Circle.

 

Respectfully, the statement is not correct.

[gendao]

^ I agree.

And by saying this you just contradicted the Wiki entry.

No - the wiki entry is itself vague.

 

It says:

Kundalini is described as being coiled up at the base of the spine, usually within muladhara chakra.

Well, the muladhara chakra is not at the base of the spine - the swadhishthana (sacral) chakra is. Perhaps that is why it only says that it is "usually" within the muladhara chakra.

 

Again, I think it can be hard to map out energetic routes with surgical precision. But the Chinese & Indian models are nonetheless far more similar than different here. I don't necessarily see any conflict, considering the degrees of uncertainty about each involved..

[Ramon25]

OK, so then awakening is not to be taken literally. That's first. Second, you'd be dead if you didn't have the energy of life. That's another reason not to take awakening literally. So awakening then is a symbolic act, like adopting a new spiritual name when you begin on the spiritual path. You can begin the path without changing your name, or you can change your name to celebrate a new beginning. But either way there is no substantial difference.

UMMMM that is effectivley what I just said.... Man dude, GIH your a smart guy, there is no denying that. I say this to offer perpective not out of disrespect. You read way to much into things and not enough at the same time. You place to much "faith" in logic and yet not enough "logic" in faith even though you think you do. Why are you so sure that you are sure? I dont know man, there are times when you offer interesting perspective and others where you literally make an ass of your self because bro you are a know it all . I have been guilty of that before But dude you got to realize that. On the kundalini note What is the difference of whether it is symbolic or not? Maybe the sages of india ment it symobolically, maybe not, maybe they saw it as a symbol and yet belived it was literalbecause of that. Either way there is no substantial difference

[Aetherous]

The awakening of Kundalini, cant happen in the Dao school, besides they form that kind of meridian, or the circulation which goes with it. So of course their can be no awakening of Kundalini, in the Daoist school of Cultivation. What most Daoists Cultivation ways form are a Small and a Great Heavenly Circle, like for example the He Che Heavenly Circle.

 

Respectfully, the statement is not correct.

 

Agreed, it is not.

[Vajrahridaya]

The problem is that anything can be described in these terms. So it makes no sense to talk specifically about Kundalini like this when any seemingly "new" phenomenon is awareness illuminating preciously-unconscious potential. Any.

 

No, this is specifically referencing deep illumination within the unconscious. It's not any ol' illumined object, it's the vast reservoir of hidden potential hidden for endless lifetimes deep within the formless realms experienced in deeper states of meditation. It's not just seeing a past life or two.

 

 

If both of these people participate in a consensual reality, this can happen, however, this has nothing to do with Kundalini. Someone who knows nothing whatsoever about Kundalini can achieve this kind of experience with another being.

 

It has everything to do with that energy, though not necessarily named kundalini in different traditions.

 

"Wattage" is a term that's applicable to a substantial and measurable energy, like electricity, which is believed to be substantial and objective. I wouldn't use "wattage" in the same sentence as awareness. Awareness is entirely transcendent. It's not an object to itself or to anything else. It doesn't get stronger or weaker and nor does it have a quality like "wattage.".

 

It of course gets stronger when it's deeper, it's a feeling. I really don't think that you've ever experienced kundalini GIH. Wattage is very applicable buddy. It's quite electric! Because it's not just awareness, it's illuminating all sorts of subtle processes. Like I said, it's vastly more complicated than my little nutshell of a statement. It does lots to the prana, the over all energy within all it's different ways it manifests through a person, mental capacity is brightened, sexual capacity is deepened. The wattage or energy a person gives off in general is increased due to the depth the awareness now arises from within all being in each moment is referencing a vaster amount of information, far beyond the mundane.

 

It doesn't seem like the Buddhist teachings have affected you all that much with regard to Kundalini.

 

That's because I don't think you are reading my post with any openness, as usual.

I assure you, Buddhism has changed my view immensely my dear, immensely.

 

As well as my experience of kundalini.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Seth Ananda]

More:

 

http://forums.vsociety.net/index.php?topic=15298.0

 

Dan Tien is said to be around Qi Hai

Most non Hindu traditions I have heard of put Kundalini in the lower abdomen region.

[and you can argue that if it is not hindu it is different to kundalini]

 

The Kalahari talk of the Num, boiling force, that begins in the belly region and then blasts its way up. And yes it does get tricky, cause some would say it goes straight up the middle, some say intense heat up the spine..

I like to think it depends which path is easiest for it.

 

Some Hindu teachings put it in the Kanda point, many which put that point in the belly round dan tien region, but some put it elsewhere...

They would say, similar to some Taoists, that the belly energy drops down to the base and then rushes up the spine... and up the middle...

 

My personal [entirely subjective] experience was of it rushing up both channels.

I was practising long hours of energy practices, strongly visualising the central channel, and then one day i decided to see if i could 'widen' the central channel.

As I did this my spine began to vibrate and then become intensely hot, So hot that sometimes I'd yell with fright. I kept going on and off with this till one day during Tantric sex, I had a completely different kind of orgasm, where I relaxed totally and my juices got sucked up my spine - I know i know, physically impossible, but I am just relaying what it felt like. It felt like my tail bone was drinking my semen.

So crazy energy up the spine and bam! I left my body.

 

Lots of cosmic experiences blah blah, had a physical Alien give me regular Instructions for the next 6 months and all kinds of weirdness...

 

After that any time i widened my central channel, my spine would resonate, the juices would 'ignite' and reach my brain and... I could feel the amazing concoction being made in my brain by all these juices and gland essence's and they would seep down through my soft palate and drip on to the back of my tongue.

Amrit, as the texts describe, is an astonishing fluid to have circulating around ones body... I could leave my body at will and many other stranger things...

All this went on for about 6 months, but by that time I was so blissed out I just stopped practising and naturally everything just wound down.

 

Heheh, I spent the next 12 years trying to Integrate all that stuff.

 

Seth.

[Vajrahridaya]

All this talk about kundalini has gotten me wondering, why does kundalini hold such a fascination for me? Especially given that I perceive myself to have a fundamentally watery disposition. I had an epiphany a couple days ago that is precisely the illuminating aspect of kundalini that attracts me to it. How interesting that you perceive this to be the very essence of it.

 

Yet it is also what I fear about it. I am not so worried about all the "this person had this horrible experience" stories. I am afraid of things inside myself that kundalini would illuminate. I know that I have very deep and powerful stuff in my unconscious, stuff that will fight like hell against anything that tries to unwind it or release it. Even with the limited light of my own awareness I run into this, how much more intense and painful would it be if the light Shakti was turned upon me!

 

Woe is me, for I am ruined!

Because I am a man of unclean lips,

And I live among a people of unclean lips...

 

Oh lordy... yeah. Believe me, I understand. You have to go through all your inner trauma. This is why it's exceedingly important in my opinion to have it awakened by a living master who knows techniques and has awareness that is deeply subtle and thus can help control it's intensity. I'm telling you, there is nothing like having a really wonderful guide who can come to you in your meditations, your dreams, and even talk to you on a psychic plain and give you guidance that is deeply necessary when traveling the intense path of spiritual cultivation. I even have my Rinpoche's email if necessary. LOL!

 

I do hear you though... It can get crazy when you start seeing multi-dimensionally.

Edited September 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

 

 

Lots of cosmic experiences blah blah, had a physical Alien give me regular Instructions for the next 6 months and all kinds of weirdness...

 

Heheh, I spent the next 12 years trying to Integrate all that stuff.

 

Seth.

 

No freakin' doubt bro... no doubt at all. :lol:

[Sunya]

Wow Seth.. awesome post man. Thanks for sharing. This thread is getting really powerful.

[Vajrahridaya]

I kept going on and off with this till one day during Tantric sex, I had a completely different kind of orgasm, where I relaxed totally and my juices got sucked up my spine - I know i know, physically impossible, but I am just relaying what it felt like. It felt like my tail bone was drinking my semen.

So crazy energy up the spine and bam! I left my body.

 

Seth.

 

Actually, when you turn the juices back into spiritual energy, this is what happens, and yes, it feels like your spine is drinking your orgasm, and it hits your brain and fills it with this beautiful elixir. I actually learned this through masturbation first quite intentionally through reading some Highest Yoga Tantra texts before implementing it with a partner. This got super intense as she also is a Tantric practitioner with deep experience. We had incredible experiences together, like seeing into star clusters, her drinking blue light from my Ajna Chakra while simultaneously orgasming while recycling the energy through each other and consciously offering it to all sentient beings. We're no longer together though. Hmmm.

[Mokona]

Actually, when you turn the juices back into spiritual energy, this is what happens, and yes, it feels like your spine is drinking your orgasm, and it hits your brain and fills it with this beautiful elixir. I actually learned this through masturbation first quite intentionally through reading some Highest Yoga Tantra texts before implementing it with a partner. This got super intense as she also is a Tantric practitioner with deep experience. We had incredible experiences together, like seeing into star clusters, her drinking blue light from my Ajna Chakra while simultaneously orgasming while recycling the energy through each other and consciously offering it to all sentient beings. We're no longer together though. Hmmm.

 

V,

 

Where can I learn this sort of information? Thanks!

[Vajrahridaya]

V,

 

Where can I learn this sort of information? Thanks!

 

Highest Yoga Tantra by Daniel Cozort is the one that I read. But, there might be better out there as this one was pretty dry, even though it related the information seemingly accurate as far as I can tell and comes highly recommended. There might be versions that are less dry scholarly out there. Anyway, it's basically all HYT stuff, or Highest Yoga Tantra, so you can do an Amazon search on that and check out what it pops up?

 

Vajra Love/Keith Dowman

 

You might be able to get some idea through the poetic renderings of Keith Dowmans' translations of sexual tantra poetry maybe? I found them inspiring myself.

 

Here's a taste...

 

39 The Siddha Babhaha, The Free Lover

 

Pleasure! pleasure! unconditional pleasure!

Unconditional desireless pleasure!

Every thought-form perceived as pleasure!

0 what unattainable secret pleasure!

 

Babhaha, Prince of Dhanjur, was intoxicated by the thrills of sensual pleasure. One day he spoke with a wise yogin who had come begging at the palace. The yogin inspired faith in him, and he asked for precepts to assist him in his sexual practice.

 

"Consummation, the samaya, is the fountain of all mystical experience; the Guru is the source of all success," were the precepts the yogin gave him. He then bestowed the initiation that transfers grace upon the prince, and instructed him in the fulfillment yoga technique of psychic channels, vital energies and seed essence:

 

In the lotus mandala of your partner,

A superior consort,

Mingle your white seed

With her ocean of red seed.

Then absorb, raise and diffuse the elixir

And your ecstacy will never end.

Then to raise the pleasure beyond pleasure

Visualize it inseparable from emptiness.

 

After twelve years of profound experience in this technique, the prince found that the obscurations of his vision had vanished, and he gained siddhi. He sang:

 

As the king of geese

Separates water from milk

The Guru's precepts

Draw up the ambrosial elixir

 

He served his disciples well before eventually attaining bodily the Dakini's Paradise.

 

Translated by Keith Dowman

Edited September 16, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[三江源]

.

Edited March 22, 2015 by 三江源

[goldisheavy]

UMMMM that is effectivley what I just said....

 

Dude, I was just agreeing with you there. You know there are two ways to agree? One way is to say "yes" and another way is to reaffirm and reiterate the position as a sign of agreement. I thought everyone knew that.

[goldisheavy]

Most non Hindu traditions I have heard of put Kundalini in the lower abdomen region.

[and you can argue that if it is not hindu it is different to kundalini]

 

The Kalahari talk of the Num, boiling force, that begins in the belly region and then blasts its way up. And yes it does get tricky, cause some would say it goes straight up the middle, some say intense heat up the spine..

I like to think it depends which path is easiest for it.

 

Some Hindu teachings put it in the Kanda point, many which put that point in the belly round dan tien region, but some put it elsewhere...

They would say, similar to some Taoists, that the belly energy drops down to the base and then rushes up the spine... and up the middle...

 

[interesting personal experience snipped]

 

Seth, thanks for sharing your experience with us. I understand exactly what you mean when you say "that's what it felt like." I am familiar with happenings like that. I didn't expect any kind of experience sharing. I was thinking in more theoretical terms.

 

I've had one OBE myself, and it didn't involve any kind of explicit Qi or Kundalini at all. I say "explicit" because I just focused on getting out of the body. I didn't care what the subtle energy does or doesn't do and at the time, I didn't really feel anything special in my spine or in any other significant region. Instead I felt like my bones rattled and there was a loud noise and then a sensation like "pop" and quiet. I actually assumed nothing happened. I opened my eyes only to find myself hovering about 1-2 feet over my body. I didn't even know I separated from my body, as I was projecting myself with eyes to begin with.

 

My interpretation of all this information is that there is a lot of variance in personal experience. And instead of trying to hammer all experience into one system, we should respect the individual differences between experiences. We should respect the differences between traditions. And we should respect the differences between individuals.

 

Most people crave objectivity. Because of this, there is a huge effort to try to systemize and shoe-horn every energy system into one system to justify and to validate the subtle energy as something truly objective. I believe this is a very wrong and destructive approach.

 

First of all, I don't believe even cars on the street are objective. Never mind subtle energy. I believe our reality is best described as intersubjective. All of us have haggling power over what we want to consider real. That's the nature of intersubjectivity as I see it.

 

So I think that some people will find it useful and true to their experience to use a phrase like "kundalini awakening." Other people will not find it useful. And I claim that there is a group of people who will be harmed by the idea of awakening, just like there is a group of Zen Buddhist who are seriously harmed by the idea that enlightenment must be sudden. These guys and gals are ever on the lookout for something sudden. This is the harm that's caused by the idea of suddenness. It causes people to try to anticipate it, and anticipating things like that is very wrong and can lead to delusions.

 

So people who have already, in the past, experienced the suddenness, they need language like "awakening" to describe what happened to them. And that's cool. But because there are individual differences between people, if awakening is made a standard, this will seriously harm a lot of people. That's what my point is.

Edited September 16, 2010 by goldisheavy