There no awakening for Kundalini

[hyok]

I think some people do not need an awakening but are drawn to the idea of experiencing Kundalini because it's being marketed as if its the Gold Star of spiritual development. IMHO, a person can go their entire life without a Kundalini experience and be as developed, perhaps even more, than those who've had K.

[Birch]

"some people do not need an awakening"

 

I think I agree. But what if someone "desires" one? The desire itself is a driver. And what about people who were minding their own business and got whacked by an awakening (for which some cultures seems to have little inherent tolerance)?

 

"Kundalini" is being marketed hard, I agree. But so are many other types of "spiritual" experience. Just look at the adwords at the top of this site.

 

There was a while back here, it was "Kunlun". We just happen to be parsing another round. This is why I like TTB's so much.

 

What would be interesting is to look at the statements that "K" marketing uses to attract people. And I'm not referring only to Susan and Santi, there's a bunch of people doing it. What I think is very wild is that so many practices become available to so many people. In the past, maybe there was only one old dude on a hill that knew it and you had to do it his way because - well, he's an old dude with one way.

 

It's a given, I think, that some people develop themselves more than others.

[Apech]

 

 

What would be interesting is to look at the statements that "K" marketing uses to attract people. And I'm not referring only to Susan and Santi, there's a bunch of people doing it. What I think is very wild is that so many practices become available to so many people. In the past, maybe there was only one old dude on a hill that knew it and you had to do it his way because - well, he's an old dude with one way.

 

It's a given, I think, that some people develop themselves more than others.

 

I think that when the ideas of kundalini came to the west they were seen as some distant inaccessible strange thing which yogis did (old man on hill). In recent years people have realised that it is possible for us westerners to do. I read that paper by Samella (not sure if I got that name right... too lazy to look it up) who said kundalini syndrome had only just started to occur in west ... what he should have said its only just been recognized in the west. So now suddenly we think we can do it and it seems like the thing to do. People are attracted to it ... it gets a money making edge to it ... we get marketing. Marketing distorts it because when people pay they expect results - so the whole thing gets dumbed down and ...

 

I've depressed myself now! Maybe I'm just too jaded.

[Birch]

"when people pay they expect results"

 

Jade away Mr Apech

 

Stuff like this, I don't think you can buy it.

 

Of course you CAN buy books, time with teachers, flights to go meet teachers etc All of which seem to me to be valid. But on another level, this stuff (I think) happens despite our petty economics.

 

I think I've mentioned before that my giving a couple of hundred quid to an excellent teacher was no big deal for me. The "deal" is what happened in proximity to my decision to do such things. I mean I suspect few people get up in the morning and go "hey, this would be a really good idea, to have a freight train sensation running up my spine". Or even "chi"- what's the draw?

[Apech]

"when people pay they expect results"

 

Jade away Mr Apech

 

Stuff like this, I don't think you can buy it.

 

Of course you CAN buy books, time with teachers, flights to go meet teachers etc All of which seem to me to be valid. But on another level, this stuff (I think) happens despite our petty economics.

 

I think I've mentioned before that my giving a couple of hundred quid to an excellent teacher was no big deal for me. The "deal" is what happened in proximity to my decision to do such things. I mean I suspect few people get up in the morning and go "hey, this would be a really good idea, to have a freight train sensation running up my spine". Or even "chi"- what's the draw?

 

Yea, its not the money exchange that bothers me. I would happily pay for something that works. Its the way in which the marketing distorts the teachings. You're right that only a few people are interested. But if I were to want to make money I would have to say "better luck, better sex, better life, better health" and all with not too much work and suffering. Just to boost sales. All of which is possible except my experience is that long periods of hard work and some pain and suffering are involved. Also real spirituality is something much deeper and profound than lightbulbs in your head.

 

Anyway I don't want to sound too jaded its probably just as it should be, the Tao works in mysterious ways.

[Birch]

"Its the way in which the marketing distorts the teachings."

 

Agree.

 

"You're right that only a few people are interested. But if I were to want to make money I would have to say "better luck, better sex, better life, better health" and all with not too much work and suffering. Just to boost sales. All of which is possible except my experience is that long periods of hard work and some pain and suffering are involved."

 

True, again. So perhaps we need to find ways that reduce the "hard work" and pain and suffering much better? Getting an understanding of what is clearly required in practice and articulating it so it seems less jargon-oriented is a good goal IMO. I liked that Shinzen Young page on it. But he's still using his own jargon and selling seminar time...

 

Thinking again. I don't know that the pain can actually be reduced. Teaching people how to approach pain, yes. Teaching them ways to slow down or speed up the process, yes. But maybe it wouldn't sound as neat as "better XYZ"? Although that will still be a byproduct?

[Apech]

 

 

Thinking again. I don't know that the pain can actually be reduced. Teaching people how to approach pain, yes. Teaching them ways to slow down or speed up the process, yes. But maybe it wouldn't sound as neat as "better XYZ"? Although that will still be a byproduct?

 

I am in two minds over this. A good teacher can probably show you how to avoid making big errors - and thus avoid some hardship. But for myself as a lone mystic I feel the only times I've really learned was when I was on my own, falling down and then picking myself up again. I've had teachers of course but never the sheltering kind - always - 'well here's a thing now go away and work it out for yourself' types - maybe I was lucky/unlucky or maybe it was just me being arrogant and refusing to be looked after.

 

Anyway on the marketing thing ... in most cases I don't think people are being evil capitalist I just think it has become the done thing to sell your wares - otherwise you think you are a no-body... people just fall into doing that ... and when they come to designing the poster or website they try to make it as attractive as possible to the general public. Whereas the old time man on the hill would probably spit and throw stones at the public - just to see if they really meant it.

[Dreamingawake]

I think you guys are on to something. Every person I have known, met, talked to or read about who accomplished anything significant along this path had a long hard road to get there. This has bourn itself out continually in my own experience as well. If the method itself doesn't hurt then often the body hurts while adjusting or growing.

 

In all things you have to exceed your limits to grow but there is a price to pay. If you lift more weight than your muscles can handle they'll hurt and if you run more than you're used to your joints ache. If you conduct more energy than your body/nervous system can stand there're plenty of (very uncomfortable) side effects for that and we've all seen people on this forum who's mental and emotional states have deteriorated because of meditation. They weren't ready, couldn't handle, practiced too much or used a method unsuitable to them.

 

This isn't to say that you can't have a 'smooth ride' but even the people who have claimed a smooth ride had some or many rough spots which they learned a great deal from. People who think it's all sunshine and daisies are, I suspect, the same ones who think they can pay a guru/teacher/master/saint/whatever and get the results they want just that easy. They're always looking for that magic pill that will instantly give them the body they want, make them independently wealthy or make them neo. When they don't get it they think the magic pill was a sham and go try to find another one

The real secret of the universe is, hold on.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

----------SPOILER ALERT--------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There's no such thing as a free lunch!! If you want something then you have to work for it and the higher/further your goals the harder you have to work. If a teacher claims to be able to make you a demi-god without damn near killing you in the process then he's probably blowing smoke up your ass I don't think most teachers do it on purpose though ( I hope not anyway). If you have good methods and the guy with all the bells and whistles next door is a scam artist then you kind of have to dress it up just to compete... Or find another way to pay your mortgage

[Mokona]

Pain isn't the only indicator of progress. At least that was the case for me when Vase Breathing (Lama Yeshe) started working for me. It felt great, and the only difficulty involved was finding time to practice, and discussing tidbits of the practice with a person who had been having results before I.

[Birch]

I dunno that I see pain as "progress". It's like throwing up if you eat something that disagrees with your belly. You just do it because it needs to be done/gets done.

 

Of course there are nice things in the process. Well, we call them "nice"

 

As I said to another TTB the other day, I spent half a day blissed out of my skull due to a heart opening, but it's not practical

 

Note to self: reminder to get blissed out only when it's a practical thing to be doing

[Dreamingawake]

LOL I should work more on the clarity of my communication.

 

I don't mean to say that pain = progress. Only that it's common enough that it should be expected. If the path of cultivation were easy then everyone would do it. Expecting it to be all rainbows and kittens is a pipe dream.

 

The truth is that no matter how many great moments, pretty scenery or mind-blowing realizations come along there are still plenty of humps in the road. If there weren't then there'd be no need for cultivation in the first place.

 

You could think of it like rock climbing. The higher you climb, the better the view but you still have to climb .

 

It's easy for the master who's climbed a hundred mountains to say, "oh yeah this is an easy mountain. It's a very simple ascent to the top and the view is great! You'll have fun the whole way up!" He's climbing MUCH BIGGER mountains so it looks that way to him. No matter what mountain your on though, it's you're first time up this particular rock. You don't know that half way up the wall gets a little crumbly and your fingers aren't quite strong enough to grip those tiny handholds near the top. Just like you don't know that you have nasty blocks in your spine and you're in for months of crippling pain while your body fixes itself. You're going to slip and every time you do, you're going to scrape a knee or bust a knuckle.

 

The view at the top IS worth it (I hope ) but people should realize that nothing worthwhile is all that easy. You have to be willing to put in the effort and stick with it and that's something you can't buy. No guru, master or teacher can give that to you. It comes from within and you have to dig deep keep going forward if you want to achieve anything.

[Apech]

I don't think we should focus on the 'pain' and the dark nights - but I think they are not only inevitable but necessary.

 

A lot of what we do is about crossing boundaries and thresholds - liminal spaces as they are sometimes called. Crossing these is difficult because a) there is a natural boundary set up by energy and b ) you have to learn a whole new skill/way of perceiving or being each time.

 

The natural boundary is set up to make the world a stable experience. That is energy which is naturally wholly creative and fluid allows stable conditions when it precipitates bodies. Otherwise we would have to deal with a chaotic world and also our minds would be dazzled. So the boundaries are protective. But when they are reinforced by habit and conditioning they become inert and difficult to cross. There are lots of images for this depending on the system - but fog, dangerous water and deserts come to mind.

 

But if we do the work ... work through the physical and emotionally painful times we can cross the boundaries and begin to see new vistas and we become wiser and wiser.

Edited October 3, 2010 by apepch7

[Birch]

I don't think we should focus on the 'pain' and the dark nights - but I think they are not only inevitable but necessary.

 

A lot of what we do is about crossing boundaries and thresholds - liminal spaces as they are sometimes called. Crossing these is difficult because a) there is a natural boundary set up by energy and b ) you have to learn a whole new skill/way of perceiving or being each time.

 

The natural boundary is set up to make the world a stable experience. That is energy which is naturally wholly creative and fluid allows stable conditions when it precipitates bodies. Otherwise we would have to deal with a chaotic world and also our minds would be dazzled. So the boundaries are protective. But when they are reinforced by habit and conditioning they become inert and difficult to cross. There are lots of images for this depending on the system - but fog, dangerous water and deserts come to mind.

 

But if we do the work ... work through the physical and emotionally painful times we can cross the boundaries and begin to see new vistas and we become wiser and wiser.

 

Oh THAT was good. Dem people been stealing "my" "THIS"

[Dreamingawake]

I don't think we should focus on the 'pain' and the dark nights - but I think they are not only inevitable but necessary.

 

A lot of what we do is about crossing boundaries and thresholds - liminal spaces as they are sometimes called. Crossing these is difficult because a) there is a natural boundary set up by energy and b ) you have to learn a whole new skill/way of perceiving or being each time.

 

The natural boundary is set up to make the world a stable experience. That is energy which is naturally wholly creative and fluid allows stable conditions when it precipitates bodies. Otherwise we would have to deal with a chaotic world and also our minds would be dazzled. So the boundaries are protective. But when they are reinforced by habit and conditioning they become inert and difficult to cross. There are lots of images for this depending on the system - but fog, dangerous water and deserts come to mind.

 

But if we do the work ... work through the physical and emotionally painful times we can cross the boundaries and begin to see new vistas and we become wiser and wiser.

 

VERY well said