taoist practice and cycles of insight

[Dharmandy]

Hello there,

 

As I said in my first post, I do vipassana meditation as my main practice, but I was wondering if anyone knows what particular Taoist practices lead into the path of insight as described by traditional Buddhism?

 

 

As far as I know, all traditions, with some sort of contemplative practices associated, lead in one way or another to the unfolding of the same fundamental path.

 

 

I would appreciate any thoughts, resources, or whatever!

 

Thank you all,

Andy

[Pablo]

Hi Andy, interesting question!

 

My understanding is that taoist practices are a Physio-energetic path, much like vipassana expert Kenneth Folk describes here:

 

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Physio-energetic+and+Psychological+Models+of+Enlightenment

 

The diversity of paths inside Taoism is probably bigger than in Buddhism (because of its physiological nature)mostly in the beginner stages, but converges at higher ones.

 

This is an excellent wiki of the taoist practices created by older members of the forum:

 

http://www.alchemicaltaoism.com/

 

 

As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice. Though there are some specific practices that are intentional indeed as Bruce Kuzmar Frantzis "The Dissolving Process of the Taoist Water Method"

 

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Release-To-Freedom-The-Dissolving-Process-of-the-Taoist-Water-Method.html

 

Check also:

 

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 1

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-1.html

 

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 2

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-2.html

 

 

Best wishes,

Edited September 17, 2010 by Pablo

[Marblehead]

Hi Andy,

 

While it is not a 'practice' as such, we are told numerous times that we are to observe the process of all things in the yniverse, try to understand them as well as possible, and try to live according to these processes.

 

Just this concept alone can take a person any where they wish to go as long as it is within their capabilities and capacities.

 

Best Wishes with your journey.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

While it is not a 'practice' as such, we are told numerous times that we are to observe the process of all things in the yniverse, try to understand them as well as possible, and try to live according to these processes.

 

 

 

The yoni-verse !!!! An inspired typo.

 

Yoni

Edited September 17, 2010 by apepch7

[C T]

The yoni-verse !!!! An inspired typo.

 

Yoni

Haha! When i saw this, i was quickly reminded of a shop sign i saw just this afternoon while out walking by the seaside - emOCEAN!

[Marblehead]

Hehehe. Can y'all tell that I rarely proof read before posting?

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Hehehe. Can y'all tell that I rarely proof read before posting?

 

Peace & Love!

 

Makes life more interesting.

[Encephalon]

I posed an obliquely related question to a Vipassana teacher here in LA; am I missing out on anything by practicing Nei Kung to the exclusion of Vipassana? He referred me to a chi kung teacher who also happens to be a Vipassana teacher and 5th degree aikidoist up in N. California. This gentleman was thoroughly familiar with my Nei Kung practice and experience and assured me that it is a powerful meditative technique in its own right. This was profoundly encouraging, although I still try to get in two more 30 minute sitting meditations in the evening, basically extended periods of energy awareness. Sure beats counting breaths.

 

This economic catastrophe's a great thing, eh? How else can we commit 3-4 hours per day to cultivation?

Edited September 18, 2010 by Blasto

[Birch]

"As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice."

 

Good call. I've said this before. "What are we sending around the system when we do qi-gong?"

Awareness? Intention? And where are we sending it exactly?

 

That kind of thing. I will go check out those links. Thank you!

[johndoe2012]

I wonder how easy it just might be, esp. for folks without kids.

 

Without kids you can do formal practise at least 3-4 hours. With one kid I practise about 2 hours a day with my current sleeping needs. But then, having a kid is also a practise itself, so maybe it is not so different after all.

[Seth Ananda]

Hmmm I have often wondered about this question.

 

I tend to think there may be differences in Intent and effect for many practices...

 

Vipassna for instance [as I understand it] is designed to create Insight. What is Insight? As far as I know, Insight is wisdom and Insight into the nature of things, or to be able to clearly see Impermanence and emptiness.

 

So basicly one sits and watches all the changing sensations in ones body or mind or breath until one is Very clear about the fact that everything is changing and ultimatly empty, Till you don't even have to think about wether it is empty or not, as you can just 'See' clearly and non-conceptually and Instantly the Reality of every sensation and situation.

 

This is very different to just moving awareness or energy around your body to open channels, or to increase ones Chi capasity...

 

But that being said, I do not think they have to be mutually exclusive either. Some Chi meditations may produce Insight as well. We would have to look at them case by case to know.

 

I do not think MCO [at least the ways I have been taught] are Insight practices. Nor Kumars water Method, although I really like his stuff for long sits as a suport when my body gets sore...

 

A Question about whether something is an Insight practice or not for me would be 'Whats my Focus or attention primarily on. If it is on building chi or moving some energy somewhere else then there is not much room for just viewing the changing nature of things with most of your minds attention.

 

I personally like to do Chi stuff first to calm my mind, then I go in to Insight practice.

 

But I may be wrong

[Encephalon]

Hmmm I have often wondered about this question.

 

I tend to think there may be differences in Intent and effect for many practices...

 

Vipassna for instance [as I understand it] is designed to create Insight. What is Insight? As far as I know, Insight is wisdom and Insight into the nature of things, or to be able to clearly see Impermanence and emptiness.

 

So basicly one sits and watches all the changing sensations in ones body or mind or breath until one is Very clear about the fact that everything is changing and ultimatly empty, Till you don't even have to think about wether it is empty or not, as you can just 'See' clearly and non-conceptually and Instantly the Reality of every sensation and situation.

 

This is very different to just moving awareness or energy around your body to open channels, or to increase ones Chi capasity...

 

But that being said, I do not think they have to be mutually exclusive either. Some Chi meditations may produce Insight as well. We would have to look at them case by case to know.

 

I do not think MCO [at least the ways I have been taught] are Insight practices. Nor Kumars water Method, although I really like his stuff for long sits as a suport when my body gets sore...

 

A Question about whether something is an Insight practice or not for me would be 'Whats my Focus or attention primarily on. If it is on building chi or moving some energy somewhere else then there is not much room for just viewing the changing nature of things with most of your minds attention.

 

I personally like to do Chi stuff first to calm my mind, then I go in to Insight practice.

 

But I may be wrong

 

 

This was precisely the concern I had that precipitated the question. As I've come to understand it, the point at which you can experience the waves of energy moving and manipulate them at will, MCO if you choose, is also the point where your nervous system - the brain, spinal cord, peripheral nerves - becomes increasingly sensitive to "information" of all kinds, conscious and unconscious, internal and external. It's like replacing the coat hanger you've been using as an antenna on your car for a brand new state-of-the-art auto antenna.

 

I've always been an intuitive person anyway - textbook left-handed, right-brained, artsy-fartsy - and nei kung also serves to amplify one's natural abilities anyway. I'm no creative genius (yet! ) but I do know that the stream of negative, self-defeating emotional noise I've been carrying around for 35 years has been almost completely shut off. At the 3 year point, I'm not yet one of these people who accomplish more before 10 am than the Hordes of the Unawakened, but I'm getting there, and I have absolute faith that this trajectory will remain as long as I commit to the practice.

[hagar]

Hi Andy, interesting question!

 

My understanding is that taoist practices are a Physio-energetic path, much like vipassana expert Kenneth Folk describes here:

 

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/Physio-energetic+and+Psychological+Models+of+Enlightenment

 

The diversity of paths inside Taoism is probably bigger than in Buddhism (because of its physiological nature)mostly in the beginner stages, but converges at higher ones.

 

This is an excellent wiki of the taoist practices created by older members of the forum:

 

http://www.alchemicaltaoism.com/

 

 

As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice. Though there are some specific practices that are intentional indeed as Bruce Kuzmar Frantzis "The Dissolving Process of the Taoist Water Method"

 

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Release-To-Freedom-The-Dissolving-Process-of-the-Taoist-Water-Method.html

 

Check also:

 

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 1

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-1.html

 

An Informal Discussion on Taoist Meditation - Part 2

http://www.energyarts.com/Articles/Bruce-s-Articles/Kumar-Frantzis-An-Informal-Discussion-on-Taoist-Meditation-Part-2.html

 

 

Best wishes,

 

All good advice in and of itself.

There is some nuances though related to how more basic practices in different Daoist lineages may converge, yet at the higher levels they differ significantly.

Actually, you'll find a whole array of different "higher" of more advanced practices in all the major Daoist lineages. Not only in Nei Dan.

 

Another common misconception is that all Daoist practices are about evocing chi or jing, and then guide with intent.

For all good systems I've looked into, the really effective teachings emphasize intent and conscious effort only slightly in the beginning, and then a letting go.

 

 

h

[Pablo]

"As far as I understand, we are doing vipassana too, not intentionally but as an outcome of the practice." Good call. I've said this before. "What are we sending around the system when we do qi-gong?"

Awareness? Intention? And where are we sending it exactly?

 

Thanks! In my opinion, there are two steps in qigong, first triggering qi flow through external and/or internal movements, and then observing the system reactions.

 

Hmmm I have often wondered about this question.

 

I tend to think there may be differences in Intent and effect for many practices...

 

(In) Vipassna ... basicly one sits and watches all the changing sensations in ones body or mind or breath until one is Very clear about the fact that everything is changing and ultimatly empty, Till you don't even have to think about wether it is empty or not, as you can just 'See' clearly and non-conceptually and Instantly the Reality of every sensation and situation.

 

This is very different to just moving awareness or energy around your body to open channels, or to increase ones Chi capasity...

 

But that being said, I do not think they have to be mutually exclusive either. Some Chi meditations may produce Insight as well. We would have to look at them case by case to know.

 

I do not think MCO [at least the ways I have been taught] are Insight practices. Nor Kumars water Method, although I really like his stuff for long sits as a suport when my body gets sore...

 

A Question about whether something is an Insight practice or not for me would be 'Whats my Focus or attention primarily on. If it is on building chi or moving some energy somewhere else then there is not much room for just viewing the changing nature of things with most of your minds attention.

 

I personally like to do Chi stuff first to calm my mind, then I go in to Insight practice.

 

But I may be wrong

 

BKF dissolve method spots body sensations (in particular blockages) from head to toes. Some versions of Vipassana do exactly the same. I'm talking about the method, not the byproduct, which IMO is deeper in Buddhism. In higher stages, taoist meditation methods focus on emotions and memories (thoughts) in order to dissolve them. In Buddhism there is a mix of vipassana and samatha practices to deal with these kinds of mental things too.

 

I found by trial and error that some qigong before sitted meditation boost my practice.

 

All good advice in and of itself.

There is some nuances though related to how more basic practices in different Daoist lineages may converge, yet at the higher levels they differ significantly.

Actually, you'll find a whole array of different "higher" of more advanced practices in all the major Daoist lineages. Not only in Nei Dan.

 

Another common misconception is that all Daoist practices are about evocing chi or jing, and then guide with intent. For all good systems I've looked into, the really effective teachings emphasize intent and conscious effort only slightly in the beginning, and then a letting go.

 

 

The convergence I mentioned was about Taoist and Buddhist meditation practices, not inside Taoism. That said at 30.000 feet high, because there are many differences between what Kenneth Folk calls something like the vertical movement (towards enlightment) and the horizontal one (exploring layers of the mind and developing all kind of habilities).

 

You may have a look at:

 

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/20+Major+Strata+of+Mind

 

as well as the Process of Insight:

 

http://kennethfolkdharma.wetpaint.com/page/The+Progress+of+Insight+(Part+One)

 

 

As usual, please include in all I said: AFAIK, IMHO, IMHE, etc. Like the old saying "today's insight is tomorrow's half truth".

 

Best,

Edited September 20, 2010 by Pablo

[Spectrum]

Oxen, Horses, Unicorns

[Birch]

Oxen, Horses, Unicorns

 

Where's my pony?