rolling/falling

[Lozen]

Which martial arts besides muay thai, aiki and ninjutsu/taijutsu teach you how to fall properly and how to roll?

 

And is there a difference between types of rolling or are they all pretty similar?

[thaddeus]

Which martial arts besides muay thai, aiki and ninjutsu/taijutsu teach you how to fall properly and how to roll?

 

And is there a difference between types of rolling or are they all pretty similar?

Well, there's judo..and Suai Jiao (sp?)..

I think there are flavors..in my aikido dojo, not making a sound and soft rolling is emphasized. In many judo circles they make a big sound..bigger the better..IMO, not very practical on concrete or wood. But that's also due in part to judo having more explosive throws where you have to break fall quickly..aikido you can plan better and work with managing the energy and thus cultivate more elaborate rolling..I like the soft rolling because you need to really relax your body and have a strong core to do it properly. I think in many chen style taichi, break falling is not taught because you just can't, you just have to relax and let your body take it (at least that's what was explained to me by a high level teacher). The spirals are so strong, you just fall straight down--maybe collapse is a better word.

Can i ask why your asking or is it just curiousity..

T

[sean]

We do rolling and break-falling exercises in warm ups to every BJJ class. Not sure about different types or how deep you can get with it. My impression is that the Judo and Aikido guys in my class have a lot more experience with rolling and falling though.

[Lozen]

I'm asking because I'm in search of the perfect dojo, and I'm making lists of all the things I want to work on or that I think are important, and then will prioritize them. Right now I am leaning strongly towards taijutsu, but we'll see.

 

I need to learn how to roll and fall instead of tensing up and things breaking. I like that you get hit in taijutsu, but seems that speed/sparring isn't emphasized. It IS emphasized in BJJ/MT , but there aren't weapons. There's speed and getting hit in boxing, but no rolling OR weapons. Wing chun has weapons and speed, but no rolling, and no getting hit. And it looks boring. etc.

[thaddeus]

I'm asking because I'm in search of the perfect dojo, and I'm making lists of all the things I want to work on or that I think are important, and then will prioritize them. Right now I am leaning strongly towards taijutsu, but we'll see.

 

I need to learn how to roll and fall instead of tensing up and things breaking. I like that you get hit in taijutsu, but seems that speed/sparring isn't emphasized. It IS emphasized in BJJ/MT , but there aren't weapons. There's speed and getting hit in boxing, but no rolling OR weapons. Wing chun has weapons and speed, but no rolling, and no getting hit. And it looks boring. etc.

Really agree about the rolling. I've learned alot from rolling and appreciating how much is really involved. Your core muscles really work and any tense parts of your body reveal themselves quickly. Maybe you should reconsider aikido based on what you listed, there is lots of 'sparring' (randori) and work based on strikes, but yeah, it's not like boxing..

T

[Lozen]

Really agree about the rolling. I've learned alot from rolling and appreciating how much is really involved. Your core muscles really work and any tense parts of your body reveal themselves quickly. Maybe you should reconsider aikido based on what you listed, there is lots of 'sparring' (randori) and work based on strikes, but yeah, it's not like boxing..

T

 

But there's no weapons in aiki. And I love weapons.

[thaddeus]

But there's no weapons in aiki. And I love weapons.

Oh..there are! The whole art is based on the sword--meaning the movements (getting behind the opponent, the distancing, sword cuts, etc.) , the postures and the actual techniques are all based on sword. So there is alot of actual sword with and staff too.

If you like weapons, you might take a special interest in seeing how the hand technique came from the sword techique.

T

[Lozen]

Okay, I have other reasons for not doing aikido, though... I guess I can go into them if you really want to know...

 

What are the primary differences between aiki and taijutsu? Anybody done both?

[thaddeus]

Okay, I have other reasons for not doing aikido, though... I guess I can go into them if you really want to know...

I would like to know--just out of interest..not to try to talk you into it..i had a bunch of reasons to quit for awhile myself. One was some of the issues that come out of existing in a group context with hierachy's and some of the posing that goes on..

T

[Lozen]

Well, I went to one aiki dojo and I thought they were extremely passive-agressive. They said that they weren't hurting people, they were just taking them to the ground, because when someone attacks you, they're really trying to say, "I want to be on the ground," so they were "helping" them to the ground. I felt like they were trying to manipulate reality to fit their pacifist viewpoints. I even said something like, "Can you show me how you could take me to the ground without hurting me?" since they were so insistent that they didn't hurt people. But they said that they couldn't show me, because they would cause me to hurt myself. So are they taking responsibility for it or not? It was just muddled thinking, and I felt they weren't clear/pure in their intent.

 

There is another aiki dojo I've heard good things about, but I will never go there because my friend's boyfriend won't shut up about it. No matter what, he always brings up aikido. Like we were listening to herbal CDs about stimulating relaxants--they relax by dissolving tension but stimulate by releasing that blockage, if that makes sense. He was like, "This is just like in aikido! Sometimes we do drills that are really soft, but they're actually really painful, but sometimes we just do painful techniques." It had NOTHING to do with aiki. I'm sick of hearing about it... and I don't want to train with him.

 

What else? I had another reason... Let me try to remember. Oh yeah, I told him no I don't want to go to his dojo because I'm not interested in soft style, and he got super defensive and did that rant about how soft is really hard. I agree with him, but still had to laugh at his ego/attachment to his art.

 

But I would be interested in the differences between aiki and ninjutsu. It's possible there's a class he's not in.

 

I would like to know--just out of interest..not to try to talk you into it..i had a bunch of reasons to quit for awhile myself. One was some of the issues that come out of existing in a group context with hierachy's and some of the posing that goes on..

T

[neimad]

There is another aiki dojo I've heard good things about, but I will never go there because my friend's boyfriend won't shut up about it. No matter what, he always brings up aikido. Like we were listening to herbal CDs about stimulating relaxants--they relax by dissolving tension but stimulate by releasing that blockage, if that makes sense. He was like, "This is just like in aikido! Sometimes we do drills that are really soft, but they're actually really painful, but sometimes we just do painful techniques." It had NOTHING to do with aiki. I'm sick of hearing about it... and I don't want to train with him.

 

hahahahaha.

 

brings up memories of my own past. aikidoka tend to become pretty infatuated with their art.....

 

i haven't trained in well over a year now and have no intentions of every going back to regular training of aikido.

[Cameron]

Judo, Sambo, Aikido...BJJ to some exten. But most good BJJ guys don't ever need to implement breakfalls thay can do flying armbars, get your back mid air and other wild shit.

 

Breakfalls are fun though I did quite alot of them in aikido.

[Smile]

Which martial arts besides muay thai, aiki and ninjutsu/taijutsu teach you how to fall properly and how to roll?

 

And is there a difference between types of rolling or are they all pretty similar?

 

If you want wepons with rolling but don't want the bull-crap of Aikido theory, go with Aiki-Jitsu

[Lozen]

If you want wepons with rolling but don't want the bull-crap of Aikido theory, go with Aiki-Jitsu

 

Wow, aiki-jitsu! What's that?! I wonder if there's a school in Tucson.

 

And how does it compare to taijutsu?

[Cameron]

If you want wepons with rolling but don't want the bull-crap of Aikido theory, go with Aiki-Jitsu

 

 

So are you going to go train with Fedor or not!?

[Smile]

So are you going to go train with Fedor or not!?

Nope. I'm not interested in grapling.

[Lozen]

Nope. I'm not interested in grapling.

[Cameron]

I know your not a grappler but it's FEDOR.

 

Do what you like it's for fun anyway..

[thaddeus]

Well, I went to one aiki dojo and I thought they were extremely passive-agressive. They said that they weren't hurting people, they were just taking them to the ground, because when someone attacks you, they're really trying to say, "I want to be on the ground," so they were "helping" them to the ground. I felt like they were trying to manipulate reality to fit their pacifist viewpoints. I even said something like, "Can you show me how you could take me to the ground without hurting me?" since they were so insistent that they didn't hurt people. But they said that they couldn't show me, because they would cause me to hurt myself. So are they taking responsibility for it or not? It was just muddled thinking, and I felt they weren't clear/pure in their intent.

 

There is another aiki dojo I've heard good things about, but I will never go there because my friend's boyfriend won't shut up about it. No matter what, he always brings up aikido. Like we were listening to herbal CDs about stimulating relaxants--they relax by dissolving tension but stimulate by releasing that blockage, if that makes sense. He was like, "This is just like in aikido! Sometimes we do drills that are really soft, but they're actually really painful, but sometimes we just do painful techniques." It had NOTHING to do with aiki. I'm sick of hearing about it... and I don't want to train with him.

 

What else? I had another reason... Let me try to remember. Oh yeah, I told him no I don't want to go to his dojo because I'm not interested in soft style, and he got super defensive and did that rant about how soft is really hard. I agree with him, but still had to laugh at his ego/attachment to his art.

 

But I would be interested in the differences between aiki and ninjutsu. It's possible there's a class he's not in.

 

I understand. Had to LOL on the 'muddled thinking'. I think people have a tendency to just repeat things they hear without really thinking about what that means. It does sound stupid, and I've heard that so often.

Differences in aiki and ninjutsu and aikijutsu..i know a little bit. I studied aikijutsu and aikido. Aikijutsu is like karate and jiujitsu mixed together..lots of striking and emphasis on breaking joints etc. Could say lots of linear movement. Aikido, as you know is more flowing, two dimensional circles--plus all the extra 'stuff' because no one could figure out what o-sensei was talking about or doing. I worked with a guy who claimed to be in a secret ninjutsu family. No one liked him and he never talked shop. All the ninjutsu stuff I've seen screams 'scam' or BS. Though I did see something on a documentary that seemed to indicate interesting spiritual aspects..this guy was communicating with spirits and drawing symbols in the air with his hand. Me personally, i'm not drawn to want to be part of a secret cult. Which is one reason why I like NY aikikai, it's big enough that you don't have to bow down to one person and despite all the bs, I can interact with and meet some interesting people as well. The fact that it is just a big club negates some of the odd interpersonal dynamics that goes on in martial art schools--if that makes sense or not..

T

[Tenguzake]

Okay, I have other reasons for not doing aikido, though... I guess I can go into them if you really want to know...

 

What are the primary differences between aiki and taijutsu? Anybody done both?

 

I have only attended a couple of Aikido classes, but one of my students has a shodan in Aikido and he has shown me a number of things.

 

My own opinion based on this limited knowledge of Aikido is that many of the joint locks are similar but Aikido-ka take 4 to 5 steps to get to the same place that take 1 to 2 in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu. The throws in the Bujinkan are more similar to Ko-ryu Japanese Jujutsu than to Aikido in my opinion. The emphasis in rolling and breakfalls in the Bujinkan is tighter and quieter than in Aikido. The Bujinkan has other types of movement than just circular as in Aikido. The Bujinkan also has a greater variety of traditional and improvised weapons work.

 

I hope this helps.

 

Be Genki,

 

Tenguzake

[Lozen]

Thaddeus--I've heard that all ninjutsu that's not under Hatsumi isn't really authentic. Not sure if that's true, just what I've heard from a martial artist I know who doesn't even train in ninjutsu.

 

Tenguzake--thanks for the info. Now if only the Bujinkan used double sticks. Small ones.

 

I miss FMA.

[Lozen]

were you doing escrima? My dad did that many years ago... involves two small sticks (as a substitute for machetes). Maybe try Silat if it's available in your area... I think some of the styles use weapons...

 

Yeah, I was doing lots of escrima (knife and stick) and a little bit of Silat. But I was working with a training partner who made it impossible to train. Like I'd go home crying sometimes after training sessions. And got really sick of him talking abotu strippers. Finally I told my instructor (but I was hesitating to for a long time because they are friends and work together). He told me to find a new training partner. I haven't found one, and not for lack of trying... He told me to bring a woman from the WSD class we just did, but they're not interested. They have kids and jobs and things. All the more reason, he says. I agree but they ain't interested. Even though it's informal and free...

[Tenguzake]

Thaddeus--I've heard that all ninjutsu that's not under Hatsumi isn't really authentic. Not sure if that's true, just what I've heard from a martial artist I know who doesn't even train in ninjutsu.

 

Tenguzake--thanks for the info. Now if only the Bujinkan used double sticks. Small ones.

 

I miss FMA.

 

The Genbukan, the Jinenkan, Stephen Hayes' Toshindo, and Glenn Morris' Hoshinroshi-ryu are all derived from Hatsumi Sensei's Bujinkan. Anyone claiming to teach Koga-ryu is a fraud. I'm sure there are some other fake ninja schools left, but you don't see them so much any more...

 

So go find another FMA school.

 

Best of luck,

 

Tenguzake

[Lozen]

There's only one other FMA school in Tucson, and I wasn't impressed....

[tumoessence]

Lozen,

 

Have you thought of training with Vince Black since he's in Tucson. A great practioner of internal chinese MA. I am sure he does rolls as part of his Bagua school.