What would you teach to the kids

[Pietro]

Some years ago, before starting my adventure with the HT I was studying with a native american shaman. One of the things that I found very interesting is how spirituality was grounded in everyday life. And how there where phases in the evolution of a person, that where signed with rituals. But more than that you had teachings that would be given as those doors where reached.

Then looking at other traditions I found that this was the case pretty much everywhere. In China kids of a certain age become part of taoistic rituals, where they beat the drum, for hours on end, developing a sense of rythm, and a respect for society. As well as a certain phisical endurance. As well as an understanding that they are part of society, and an important part, too. In the west we have baptism, and cresima (becoming a soldier of Christ), and although many of them have now been transformed in empty rituals, this is not always the case, or at least not the intention of who makes them.

 

So, here is the question...

 

but first let me clarify that I will not answer to this question in this post, but I will pose the question and then answer to it, with another post.

 

Ok, to the question, imagine two possible situations:

a normal family in the normal world

and

a family in a tao village.

 

What would you teach to the kids

(your childs, or the childs that society have assigned you, through adoption or through being the godfather...)

in both situations?

 

In the first situation you are the parents and have to make decisions about the education of your kids. In the second you are the whole congregation of all the parents, and elders, and all the adults, and have to make decisions for all the kids of the tribe. And if your vote is that each parent should decide by themselves, what would you decide for your family

 

The situation main difference is that in the second case (the tao village) your solution will be adopted by everybody. So also the other kids of the village will be raised in the same way. Your kid will not feel loney, or different or would mature faster, because of what you teach him.

 

I especially would like to know

a) the list of concepts/techniques (if any)/values that you would consider important

and

the age (or what should happen) at which those teachings should be given.

c) the actual way in which you would let those teaching be tought

d) would you keep them secret before a certain age not to ruin an element of surprise or would they be a part of everyday life, or something in between, how so.

 

I would like to add a few points.

When I read about Taoism from Bruce he clarifies that in Taoism a person is not considered to be ready to have a family and kids unless he has gone over the wounds from his family, and has become a mature human being. Only from that point onward can the path be considered a spiritual path and not a recovery path.

So shall we say that as a parent you will consider your job to be completed when your kid is ready to have kids himself. Or at least you have given him enough tools that he can, eventually, reach this goal. Your goal is not to make an enlightened master, but a mature human being.

 

Please also consider indirect teachings: you might not teach zazen, but if you practice it at home he could pick it up. Would you then practice it in secret, or explain, or not explain or what?

 

An example, also: think about the diet, Yoda just said that it feels some of the things he is learning right now, he should have learned them from 5th grade.

 

So,

What would you teach? Why those ...? When? Why then?

a) If you where living in a normal society

and

If you were living in a taoist village.

 

 

I am particularly (but not only) interested in hearing the point of view of fathers and mothers.

 

Many thanks to all those that try even a partial answer.

 

Pietro

 

P.S. added later. Oh yes, to make it simple the asumption is that your companion agrees with you whatever you decide. More than that, would have reached the same decisions him/her self!

Edited May 2, 2006 by Pietro

[Pietro]

Some years ago I went to a workshop and there was a kid. He was around 13 but with a maturity that was so extreme to seem an adult in kids clothes. He was so mature that he would speak as an adult to adults, and just could not mix with kids of his age. Later during the workshop, in the third or fourth day we had a poetry night, and many person read their own poetry. He read some poetries, one of them explaining how he realised how he is never going to have friends of his own age. This kid have been practicing HT practices all his life. Practices like fusion really changed him.

 

 

My assumption is that it is not really possible not to teach at all. The diet, the way you behave, the strange things you do. All pass, and kids love to imitate. So I think it is better to tech some things in the right context, at the right age, and explain that some things are only for people who are of a certain age or have made certain choises in life.

 

Pretty much any technique that I would teach in the first case (family in a normal society) I would teach in the second case (tao village, tv) But in the second case I would teach some extra things.

 

So, in the first case,

let's first see the listof techniques/things/concepts vaguely ordered by when would they be shared.

 

raw food diet

breathing,

go

sitting

ability to name your emotions and express them

standing on one leg

some form of creative expression or art

standing

inner dissolving

ability to find your ethical compass (what is right for you)

I would make sure that the microcosmic is open although I might not teach anything related to it.

I would probably make a small ritual when he is 18 in which I teach him the primordial qi gung. This I would keep secret until that day, and after the ritual I would consider him an adult.

 

I would instead not teach any of the following

sounds, inner alchemy, reverse breathing or complete breathing, tai ji, or any other martial art (but of course if he wanted to learn a martial art I would be happy). I wouldn't even teach sexual practices, although I might have a frank discussion about it. (telling what???)

 

And probably not even asked would I teach the kan and li (apart the fact because I don't practice it, also because it is an immortal practice, so not fit to make a person mature but to make a person immortal).

 

Now speaking about how would those things be teached. The raw food is pretty much impossible to miss. In a family where everybody eats raw food you eat raw food, but then you need to explain why. I would not force him not to eat other things (McDonald), also because raw food being so good makes McDonald much less dangerous (the liver is in less need of fat, thus picks up less poison from McDonald).

 

Breathing: I don't understand, I mean we were all deep breather, and then most of us lost that and then there is so much work to get it again. This is one thing that I would try to make sure he would never loose, if it is possible. I think it is just basic health.

 

Go: My father teached me chess. And I played with him for years. By playing I also learned to think, and had fun, and enjoyed it a lot. I would really play Go with my son. Chess is for wimps!

 

Sitting: here we enter into some form of meditation, and I know that a lot of people think that you should never teach meditation to kids. But is it really so? When I was 23 I was sharing the room with my brother. He was 7 and often in the evening I would sit on the floor, until my breath would drop and the day was digested. Then I would go to bed. Soon he started sitting with me. I didn't each him anything, nor did I force him to do anything. I would have had to force him NOT to sit with me. I am sure if I had kept on living with him he would now have a natural ability to sit and center himself more. I think this is a good way of learning it, can't really go bad.

 

ability to name your emotions and express them: and here we go to the first painful stop. Because this really requires some teaching. In traditional society it was done through the initiation. In a modern society I don't think I would be able to organise a proper initation, but I do consider this abilty to be a sine qua non for being a mature member of society. Age to learn it: sometime between 11-14. Ways to learn it:some explenations and help in recognising some emotions. Also keeping the ability to recognise, express emotions high on the values list.

 

Standing on one leg: Gives psychological balance.Important as a persons hormone awakens. Age 12-14. For boys in particular.

 

some form of creative expression or art: every school has it by now.

 

standing: Another paiful spot. Because this is not something that kids naturally learn. But there are kids of age 16 that you can feel they are fully un-integrated. Especially for children who totally lack an internal integration some standing would be necessary. If we do it together in the morning it would not be impossible. If a person already is very integrated then less is necessary. In any case the teaching of the tool should be given. It is too important to have it as you go through life. Age 15-16.

 

inner dissolving: Without inner dissolving (or something equivalent, like vipassana) a person does not have the tools to deal with the wounds of childhood. As such cannot really mature, and take his place in society in a mature way. This means that a person might then harm other people because he himself is not an adult psychologically. And if I lacked as a parent to let my kid reach that level of maturity I would feel on me the responsability of it. Thus internal dissolving HAVE to be tought. Not to become an enlightened, but to cope with everyday wounds/problems. Also internal dissolving is the best tool to have in case of SHOCK. And in this lifetime we are pretty much sure to encounter SHOCK at some point or another. I do not consider someone to be safe from what life can throw him if he does not have this tool. No inner dissolving, and you get raped/beaten/tortured, you can get mad. With inner dissolving... it is rough, but you can recover. It then really depends on you.

 

ability to find your ethical compass (what is right for you): this would be pretty much by speaking at every age, in different forms, although I know it is not possible to plan this sort of things before. But the kind of question we have come up before (what would you do if you where inthis situation), with the element that the answer must not contain a reference, would be part of my education from the beginning. Just the question would get more complex.

 

For the Primordial Qi Gung, I would keep the secret, then I would teach it for the birthday in which he becomes adult. After that I would REALLY consider him an adult, without all this bullshit of, 'yes you are 18 but nothing really changes'.

 

I will think about the Taoist Village and write a second post later.

[Yoda]

My philosophy is that kids are fully realized masters and it is the rules and teachings of parents, teachers, society, etc that finally 'civilizes' them and snuffs their amazing creativity, energy, and joy.

 

As such, my parenting philosophy is to stay out of their way as much as possible. Keep as few rules as possible, discipline them and be negative towards them as little as possible, etc. Keep the kids out of school as much as possible, too. Be as praising and positive and worshipful as possible. We also let them sleep in our bed, too.

 

Then, when they are set free, they can come to their own decisions and conclusions about right and wrong, yada, yada, but at least they'll have their self-esteem in one piece.

 

That's not to say that there's any problem with the normal way to raise kids. It's a more challenging road for all involved, but it works fine too.

 

My 6 year old daughter, knows what I believe and she knows what Mommy believes and she can decide whenever. Kids are too enlightened to cling to beliefs, anyways.

 

Mrs Yoda is a notch more conventional, but only one notch. Yoda is several notches away and gunning for a few more as time goes on.

 

-Yoda

[neimad]

i go with yoda.

 

for my own kids, when i have them, i have no intention of teaching them anything.

 

i will do my own thing and let them learn whatever they desire to about any practical aspect.

 

the only thing i will emphasise in their development is to listen to intuition, and to foster creativity.

the rest is up to them!

 

i hope to raise kids living in a tribal (community) village where they can run amuck with all the other kids and interact with people of all ages on a daily basis.

 

i have no intention of sending my kids to school either.

life is the best school there could possibly be. if a child wants to build stuff with his hands.... he will naturally gravitate to that. if he/she wants to garden, the same... art... music... whatever. the kid will naturally seek whatever expression they desire. we have no need to force learning upon a child, as we do.

 

shutting kids in a classroom for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week with only other kids of the same age is pretty much prison.

should be illegal!

[GrandTrinity]

Interesting, i have been formulating a paper outlining a curriculum for conscious education.

 

All the indiginous/native/aboriginal traditions of the world have a lot to offer us. Obviously, they should be taken with a grain of salt. That salt is science. Nietsche wrote in his Anti-Christ that science is the Original Sin.

 

Experiential, scientific, covering all the bases, this is what should be taught both in tao village and regular village. And it should all be voluntary.

 

Physical education classes these days are draining peoples essence. Physical, mental and spiritual, the competition and denial of MIND in PHYSICAL ed is inferior to heart-based education that included mental awareness and peace, relaxation, etc.

 

The kids should learn about the Matrix of Power that controls banks, governments, etc. but only if they can handle this stress through breathing, meditation, massage and movement, nutrition too.

[MatthewQi]

Wow Pietro!

 

Are you now an expectant father or something ?

 

Matt

[Yoda]

The kids should learn about the Matrix of Power that controls banks, governments, etc. but only if they can handle this stress through breathing, meditation, massage and movement, nutrition too.

 

 

Why teach them things that harsh their love? Even if they can stay cool through practice, they'll simply be treading water and not moving forward.

 

Personally, I think that the banks are ruthlessly profit motivated just as God intended them to be which allows them to blow through the barriers of limitation and negativity quickly and effectively. Thanks in no small part to the banks and entrepreneurs of the world, technology is flying high and fast, bringing info to Yoda when and where he needs it.

 

*sips beet juice*

 

*smiles*

[Cameron]

Kids need love and they need to play. They need love and they need to play.

 

Also..kids need love and they need to play...

 

And adults also need love and need to play....

 

A sense of playfullness and not taking things so seriously is I think essential in early years. Discipline and hard work can come later if they want to become the next President or brain surgeon...

 

IMO...

Edited May 3, 2006 by Cameron

[Pietro]

My philosophy is that kids are fully realized masters and it is the rules and teachings of parents, teachers, society, etc that finally 'civilizes' them and snuffs their amazing creativity, energy, and joy.

 

As such, my parenting philosophy is to stay out of their way as much as possible. Keep as few rules as possible, discipline them and be negative towards them as little as possible, etc. Keep the kids out of school as much as possible, too. Be as praising and positive and worshipful as possible. We also let them sleep in our bed, too.

 

Then, when they are set free, they can come to their own decisions and conclusions about right and wrong, yada, yada, but at least they'll have their self-esteem in one piece.

 

That's not to say that there's any problem with the normal way to raise kids. It's a more challenging road for all involved, but it works fine too.

 

My 6 year old daughter, knows what I believe and she knows what Mommy believes and she can decide whenever. Kids are too enlightened to cling to beliefs, anyways.

 

Mrs Yoda is a notch more conventional, but only one notch. Yoda is several notches away and gunning for a few more as time goes on.

 

-Yoda

 

Interesting. So there is no set ot tecniques, very basic, that you would consider fundamental to go around in life.

 

But what about all the indirect teaching. All the teaching that comes simply by being with you. What do you answer a kid who asks you why do you do something. What diet are your kids in: sweets?

 

Or what about values. A friend in Israel, practitioner, has now two male kids. She told me how she made a certain number of differences respect the way she herself was raised. But she said that the simple thing that made the biggest difference was not to say: "you are being bad" but to say "doing something bad".

 

One time I asked a fellow Go player if his daughter wanted to learn Go. He loked me as if my naivete was simply amusing. And then explained me that by the way in which he presents things his daughter prefered one thing or another. He passes a lot of time with his two daughters, and they simply adore him. What he said seemed very manipulative, but my understanding is that is simply unavidable.

 

What kids ask seriously depend on how you present them things. What you chose to tell and what not to stress. Do you not teach them to wash their teeth, or not to, but what to do instead, and why?

 

Think about a person who practices inner dissolving. I said how inner dissolving helps you in moment of shock (you come from buddhism, I am sure there is something similar in buddhism). Will you not tell it? Just by the fact of how you tell it and when you tell it, will not this deeply impress your kids. If you simply tell the truth to your kids, surely this involves some very serious reasons why you practice.

 

When I was a kid, facing a rational problem, my father use to say: "this is a problem that an intelligent person would be able to solve. You are intelligent so solve it." And would not give up on the problem until I solved it. Somehow this tought me how to think. Last month I asked him if he could finally get the cd of a particular singer that he said he nominally gave me for my birthday, 6 months before. He lamented that their website was a mess. I answered: "Finding this information is a problem that a good journalist would be able to solve, you have been a journalist for more 40 years, so find it." When I arrived in Rome the CD where there.

 

Some months ago someone killed someone else in Italy. The killer was maybe 30, so way into adulthood. The father of the assassin was interviewed, and he said how he felt on him the responsability for not having taught to his son discernment. Would you not feel responsability if your children once they become physically mature do something stupid?

 

SO, sorry Yoda. I think yours is a superficial answer. I thinks there is plenty of teaching that comes simply by being with you, and how you present things, and how deep do you chose to go with things, and even in a yin way suggest them to look at issues. I mean, you said that you felt you should have learned about raw food when you where in fifth grade. Shouldn't your kids have the same luck?

 

When a gf I had who never had much money from her family refused to buy a scooter, which she could barely afford, but would have helped her in finding a job in Rome, my father simply asked: "do you see the feedback?". That was all.

 

Pietro

 

Wow Pietro!

 

Are you now an expectant father or something ?

 

Matt

Hey Matt, great icon.

 

I am always expecting. I simply need to solve a couple of technicl problems with male parthenogenesis .

 

And always on the back of my mind there is this idea of funding a taoist village somwhere.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Pietro

[Pietro]

i go with yoda.

 

for my own kids, when i have them, i have no intention of teaching them anything.

 

i will do my own thing and let them learn whatever they desire to about any practical aspect.

 

the only thing i will emphasise in their development is to listen to intuition, and to foster creativity.

so, here you go, this is a teaching!

How will make this emphasis?

What will you explain to the obvious questions about whatyou do?

 

i hope to raise kids living in a tribal (community) village where they can run amuck with all the other kids and interact with people of all ages on a daily basis.

me too!

If they are raised in a village would your education change at all?

 

i have no intention of sending my kids to school either.

life is the best school there could possibly be. if a child wants to build stuff with his hands.... he will naturally gravitate to that. if he/she wants to garden, the same... art... music... whatever. the kid will naturally seek whatever expression they desire. we have no need to force learning upon a child, as we do.

Many people told me that there is a certain age in which kids push to feel the limit. To see how far can they go. And I know of at least one adult I met had problems as an adult because he had no imposed limits. This harmed him, as it did not help him to build his own discipline and sense of security.

 

Said that there are some good schools around, if you have to. FOr example check this out: http://www.sands-school.co.uk/abouttheschool.htm

and those:

http://www.sudbury-hl.de/base/sudbury/initiativen/index.php

 

shutting kids in a classroom for 6 hours a day, 5 days a week with only other kids of the same age is pretty much prison.

should be illegal!

 

yep, I am with you on this!

 

Pietro

[Pietro]

Interesting, i have been formulating a paper outlining a curriculum for conscious education.

 

All the indiginous/native/aboriginal traditions of the world have a lot to offer us. Obviously, they should be taken with a grain of salt. That salt is science. Nietsche wrote in his Anti-Christ that science is the Original Sin.

 

Experiential, scientific, covering all the bases, this is what should be taught both in tao village and regular village.

 

Yes. if you look at how kids are raised in traditional society, from hunter gatherer society, to traditional villages, one thing that they have in common is that they all give much importance to passing the values of society to the next generation. In case of native american those values where also the ability to be an individual person, and think for yourself.

 

The agreement seem to be that while a girl becomes a women naturally by becoming old, a boy does not become a man if some teachings are not given. And the more I go on the more I feel this being true. There are some psychological books around which stress this out, too.

 

I do agree that the ability to keep an open mind with a scientific form of enquiry going on in dealing with reality is important.

 

And it should all be voluntary.

 

the way in which things are presented is often so impotant to make the concept of voluntary/coercitive an ill posed duality

 

Physical education classes these days are draining peoples essence. Physical, mental and spiritual, the competition and denial of MIND in PHYSICAL ed is inferior to heart-based education that included mental awareness and peace, relaxation, etc.

 

Interesting, and I probably agree with you, if I could understand what you meant.

What are :Physical education classes" and how do they "drain peoples essence"?

And I do agree that this mind/physical division is not doing any good!

 

The kids should learn about the Matrix of Power that controls banks, governments, etc. but only if they can handle this stress through breathing, meditation, massage and movement, nutrition too.

Ok, so you are teaching them breathing, meditation, massage, movement and nutrition. That's quite something!

 

How can you decide if someone can handle the stress before he is subject to it? And what can you do after you have explained all that and they are in great stress? tell them it was all false?

 

My father, teached me to consider everybody as human beings, and in this way I pretty much managed never to demonize anybody. I think I would teach that too.

[TwoTrees]

Great one, Pietro !

My philosophy is that kids are fully realized masters and it is the rules and teachings of parents, teachers, society, etc that finally 'civilizes' them and snuffs their amazing creativity, energy, and joy.

 

As such, my parenting philosophy is to stay out of their way as much as possible. Keep as few rules as possible, discipline them and be negative towards them as little as possible, etc. Kids are too enlightened to cling to beliefs, anyways.

-YODA

Right on. During my childhood my parents made sure I'd discovered everything on my own and did not forbade much. Guidance and teachings were not highly emphasized, either. If I'd wanted deeper understanding of my interests, I was required to search out for them. I think mostly for a "leading of example" in personal strength and ambitious nature. They protected me in a way that I never saw or felt barriers...they progressed in time as I, on a special kind of supportive way in standby, and got closer to each other.

The way was not always perfect, but a part of me wants to fulfill what they've always seen in me even when I hadn't seen it yet, and even at the times when we were all uncertain on personal terms.

On the note about kids being indigo or supernovas of purity :

It is a special kind of strength in wisdom, there is in them a more simple and pure way of something with the morsels of it the many allegedly distinguished clever adults have filled millions of books over the centuries. They have this universal connection with a huge unknown energysource. Surely we've gained certain weaknesses since then ... or at least, until they are recognized and maybe addressed to some degree.

 

With my neice I've always challenged her questions with more questions...getting her own feelings and intention out in front of her thinking...hence supporting definite personal choice and self realization. She's done some pretty impressive things, and has a good head on her shoulders. Which would be nice to think that everyone can tap into this with ease...

 

Also..kids need love and they need to play...

 

And adults also need love and need to play....

 

A sense of playfullness and not taking things so seriously is I think essential in early years. Discipline and hard work can come later if they want to become the next President or brain surgeon...

-CAM

Shouldn't we all retain that youthful heart ? It's very hard to rediscover and absorb after you've lost it - passed into the ever changing, ever evolving recesses of your being. Some have even wished that they could "bottle the stuff"

We always consider at some point in time on being back in that home, the warmth and love of the state where the sun was cradling and nurturing us. So the desire to get back to our center where nothing moves - the powerful seed of the hurricane's spiral or the core of the sphere we dwell upon doesn't move in that same kind of way becomes present.

If one would experience and accept all the contradictions, ambivalencies and polivalencies, and don't get thrown off and still dare to joyfully play with the world, then one would have possibly tapped into their higher self and that of the cosmos...simple being is laced with surreal but very hidden intricacies.

 

may the careful interplay between listening, heart, instinct, attention, and intellect build up the balance between the everyday order and the exceptional moments of each and every one,

 

-M

[Pietro]

Kids need love and they need to play. They need love and they need to play.

 

Also..kids need love and they need to play...

 

And adults also need love and need to play....

 

A sense of playfullness and not taking things so seriously is I think essential in early years. Discipline and hard work can come later if they want to become the next President or brain surgeon...

 

IMO...

I fully agree that playfulness is extremly important.

 

But discipline is IMO important as well. There is no path in life where you don't need it in your set of tools.

I was taught discipline the wrong way, and it made a lot of damage. I was tought to just close my teeth and go forward. Now I would teach a discipline based on the 70% rule. Which would let discipline raise naturally.

 

ANd I think that curiosity and passion for the world is more relevant than discipline to become a president or a brain surgeon. Discipline is needed for everything. But without passion and curiosity you will not develop the interest that leads you to follow some extreme lines of study.

[TwoTrees]

***

Edited May 3, 2006 by TwoTrees

[Cameron]

I was really a miserable kid so it's hard to look back objectively about childhood but I think if I had grown up in a warmer climate like arizona or california I would have done better from a younger age. Growing up in NY with cold winters and having bad asthma as a child along with a host of allergies just made me depressed most of the time.

 

So, I would say above all else I would try to help my kids become healthy and vibrant then they could probably be more successful and passionate about whatever they want.

[neimad]

two-trees....

 

your cool.

 

lets make babies together.

 

 

 

hahaha.

one of my listed goals WAS to have babies from different mummas

[TwoTrees]

Haha, I'd be the wrong person then. lol

 

Not sure if you knew but I wasn't given the proper female organs for that.

[sean]

SO, sorry Yoda. I think yours is a superficial answer. I thinks there is plenty of teaching that comes simply by being with you, and how you present things, and how deep do you chose to go with things, and even in a yin way suggest them to look at issues. I mean, you said that you felt you should have learned about raw food when you where in fifth grade. Shouldn't your kids have the same luck?

I think maybe it's hard for guys like Yoda to accept this ... I think he is a rare soul gifted with a natural charisma and interpersonal charm and I picture thim sort of naturally exuding his values with his kids without overthinking it. Which is a great ideal, to be in such a flow that you don't really have to analyze, consciously map build, or create a structured practice out of something. Yoda, I think you don't realize you are at a high level as a parent and you assume that every parent can adopt a "kids are enlightened and can just raise themselves" mentality ... but many parents would not know how to work with these instructions and would seriously fuck up their kids carrying out these instructions the way they might hear them. Obviously (hopefully) you are not suggesting to just leave your kids literally alone to raise themselves, letting them cry themselves out, not explaining anything to them, don't bother setting any kind of example, etc. I mean, you are making choices about what to explain, what to let them figure out, what to show them, what to censor in every moment you spend in their lives. I think you naturally set an example because you are a naturally moral person. But some people are not naturally moral. They have children and are ethically fucked up and IMO would do well do shield their kids from some of their own pathologies. This branches off into a whole discussion on it's own. But my point is that I think you are taking for granted all the components that go into you as an engaged, awesome parent that is actually teaching your kids in every moment. These components are not something that every parent has, or even knows about, let alone how to embody ... hence discussions on child-rearing concepts and best practices. I think you woke up on the parenting mountain and forget there needs to be a path for us wanderers down here is what I'm trying to say dude.

 

Sean

[neimad]

Not sure if you knew but I wasn't given the proper female organs for that.

 

??

 

 

 

 

 

sean. i see your point, but i think i'm in the same camp as yoda on this one... and it's not about just letting them rear themselves. its about providing all the support the child needs, nothing more and nothing less. from that point you let the child essentially choose it's path and all you do is provide support, resources and encouragement.

the point is that you are not forcing a child to learn anything or in a fashion that it's not willing to.

 

it may seem like this would cause a child to want to do nothing, but on the contrary i have witnessed first hand the kind of interest and dedication to self-learning this attitude sparks.

 

there is a friend of mine at the local markets, he has 8 children.

none of them vaccinated. none of them go to school (they have a teacher, but it's sort of more informal). these kids all sleep in the same room, and many share beds. they all eat healthy foods, all organic or biodynamic. drink clean water.

the kids are mostly left to their own devices, and as i said above, the parents provide the support love and care that the child needs at any one moment.

granted at this stage the eldest is 11.

but i have had a chance to talk and play with all of these children, and they are amazing.

sure they are prone to the regular tantrums, and other little spats kids have but it's quite incredible how unique each of them is in their personality and just how expressive, alive and vibrant they all are.

at their age they already have work ethic. they make their way around the markets volunteering to help stall holders out, and they work so hard and well they even get paid for it.

all income they give back to their father, who doesn't even ask for it.

i love hanging out with these kids and i've never been able to say this before about young children (except when i was one) but these kids are really and truly my friends and i am able to communicate them in the same manner, actually even more openly and honestly, that i do with anyone else.

remarkable. although trying to play with all eight at once, something i've only done on one sunday (as usually only 4-5 of them come to any one market, and two of them are two young to come) is just too much! ahhhhg when they all talk at once. but i enjoy it because my patience is really given a thorough working and not once have i felt annoyed or angered.... just tired sometimes haha. but also being with them reminds me that i was a child and am still capable of viewing and enjoying the world in the same manner.

what fun!!!

 

but then their father is a pretty remarkable and intelligent man (haven't had much oppurtunity to get to know the mumma).

 

anyways i feel like the point of this discussion was from an idealistic view..... a "what would you do if?" hypothetical....

not necessarily feasible in all situations granted, but definately possible of that i am certain.

[neimad]

so, here you go, this is a teaching!

How will make this emphasis?

What will you explain to the obvious questions about whatyou do?

 

anything a child asks of you, explain it to them. honestly, with no frills.

i have learnt one very important lesson regarding children, i read it in "the celestine prohpecy" actually, and it stuck with me.

talk to a child in the same manner you would talk to anyone else. there is no need to ever dumb down to a child, regardless of age. they understand and at a deconditioned age are probably more aware of the universe than us, just devoid of the words and concepts to describe it is all.

 

me too!

If they are raised in a village would your education change at all?

 

you mean as opposed to being in a tribe?

no i don't think so.

the most important aspects i feel, are to

1. let the child choose his/her own path (i.e. how do they want to express their infinite creativity?).

2. a full and rich social blend of interactions.

i.e. interacting with as many people of different ages, sexes, races (if applicable in the area), trades, character, etc.

 

the rest can work itself out as you go. they would be my only two guidelines.

 

Many people told me that there is a certain age in which kids push to feel the limit. To see how far can they go. And I know of at least one adult I met had problems as an adult because he had no imposed limits. This harmed him, as it did not help him to build his own discipline and sense of security.

 

oh, definately.

allowing a child to choose his/her own path does not mean there are not behavioural limits.

unnecessary violence, for example is not allowed.

however i have learnt rather than punish a child for an action, talk to them in a calm manner and with honesty and sincerity.

 

a fantastic example is this:

one day i was hanging out with a couple of the 8 kids and we were mucking around. one of the younger ones told me he wanted to be a baby again. and jokingly i said he missed his mummies nipple.

one of his older brothers took that as offensive and came to his brothers defense by spitting in my face.

instantly i told him that was not on, and i was going to tell his father, which i did.

his father spoke with him about the matter and it came out that he thought i was insulting his brother.

i explained to him that i was merely joking, and if he ever felt like i was crossing the line or doing something wrong by him, to tell me and we could discuss it. he understood.

amazingly ever since that interaction, this one of the eight became a lot closer to me.... whereas he was a little stand-offish and distant, he suddenly became a lot more affectionate and friendly.

he truly appreciated the openess and honesty i shared with him and that i didn't overreact.

 

the kids know the morals. they know right from wrong, oh sure they want to push..... and they want to have the boundaries defined for them. so you do it as necessary.

 

yep, I am with you on this!

 

Pietro

 

you will be a great father.

 

i read part of a book on children and it had some amazing advice. for the first several months until they are able to begin moving more of their own accord, of a childs life it should go everywhere held either by mummy or daddy. throughout the day constantly in mums or dads arm.

a child should also apparently sleep in the same bed as mum (and dad?) for the first 3 years also. reduces muscle tonus (tension) and keeps a child soft and supple, and emotionally secure.

 

 

gotta find this book and read more

it's called "the continuum concept" if you are interested.

 

(p.s. i'm only 24, no kids for at least another 4 or more years for me haha)

[Pietro]

you mean as opposed to being in a tribe?

Sorry I should have said how would you act if you were not to raise them in a village/tribe but in a city in a western society.

 

allowing a child to choose his/her own path does not mean there are not behavioural limits.

unnecessary violence, for example is not allowed.

however i have learnt rather than punish a child for an action, talk to them in a calm manner and with honesty and sincerity.

 

I justhad this image of the older brother beating up the younger brother.

The father: NO UNNECESSARY VIOLENCE!

The older brother: But this was necessary, I wanted (back the/his) cookie.

Father: Oh, ok then.

 

one day i was hanging out with a couple of the 8 kids and we were mucking around. one of the younger ones told me he wanted to be a baby again. and jokingly i said he missed his mummies nipple.

one of his older brothers took that as offensive and came to his brothers defense by spitting in my face.

instantly i told him that was not on, and i was going to tell his father, which i did.

his father spoke with him about the matter and it came out that he thought i was insulting his brother.

i explained to him that i was merely joking, and if he ever felt like i was crossing the line or doing something wrong by him, to tell me and we could discuss it. he understood.

amazingly ever since that interaction, this one of the eight became a lot closer to me.... whereas he was a little stand-offish and distant, he suddenly became a lot more affectionate and friendly.

he truly appreciated the openess and honesty i shared with him and that i didn't overreact.

 

This story is really nice, and it seem very similar on how I would like to rear my kids. Still I believe there are some tools that it is my responsability to teach them. Just to be able to handle whatever life throws at them.

 

Btw, spitting is very interesting. In a sense is the only form of attack that a kid can do that really bothers an adult. I remember a mother that gave to her kid spitting permission. If bothered by adults (visualise the old aunt who grabs the kids cheek and shakes it while showting: how cute are you!) they could spit at him/her. When the adult would protest with the mother she would take the kids part. It is interesting the idea to give to the kids a form of undangerous yet effective weapon like this.

 

 

the kids know the morals. they know right from wrong, oh sure they want to push..... and they want to have the boundaries defined for them. so you do it as necessary.

 

Maybe. But kids are also racist, love what is similar to them. Are afraid aggressive toward those who are dissimilar. You might have counterexample, but in general a kid who has any serious difference (a friend of mine had no hair, for example) will have a hard time. It probably depends a lot on the subtle believes of the parents.

 

 

you will be a great father.

 

i read part of a book on children and it had some amazing advice. for the first several months until they are able to begin moving more of their own accord, of a childs life it should go everywhere held either by mummy or daddy. throughout the day constantly in mums or dads arm.

a child should also apparently sleep in the same bed as mum (and dad?) for the first 3 years also. reduces muscle tonus (tension) and keeps a child soft and supple, and emotionally secure.

 

 

gotta find this book and read more

it's called "the continuum concept" if you are interested.

 

(p.s. i'm only 24, no kids for at least another 4 or more years for me haha)

Interesting. It is a few years that my body is sending me the signal that it is ready to father. Should I look for a women just to have kids? I don't think so.

 

Interesting also the part about the kids needing to sleep with their parents for 3 years. It makes sense. When I was a kid the older generation practically brain washed my mother that it was dangerouse for me to sleep in their bed. (she did it one time, felt GREAT, and was then heavily chastised by all the older generation).I know it wounded her, but I can't tell for me.

 

 

Book added to amazon wish list.

Edited May 3, 2006 by Pietro

[Yoda]

I think you woke up on the parenting mountain and forget there needs to be a path for us wanderers down here is what I'm trying to say dude.

 

 

Keep compliments like that coming, and you're higher up on the mountain than I.

 

What you vibrate has WAY more to do with raising good kids than whatever strategy you use.

 

My answer is simple, but not superficial. It is deeper than any philosophy, belief, or technique.

 

If you are miserable and you have kids, you'll muck it up no matter your words and actions. Their happiness will upset you at every turn and you'll try to take them down a notch in the name of love, caring, education, discipline, etc. If you are gloriously happy and think that your kids can hang the moon, any old approach will work. But you'll *really feel* that your kids are perfect as they are, so you'll transmit that lesson to them that they can keep for life. That will be the foundation stone for all they do.

 

This principle applies to all aspects of life. Look at your job, for instance. If you are negative about it and you dislike your coworkers, clients, tasks, etc then no action, technique or philosophy is going to work for you. But if you love your work, coworkers, clients, etc then your words and actions, whatever they are, will be perfect everytime. This is what Lao Tzu and the Zen dudes are getting at. It's your bliss that determines success in any endeavour and not the actions themselves.

 

-The Green One

[Cameron]

Kyle is an awesome dad. One time I called him and all this screaming in the backround and I go "It sounds like your at the circus". He laughed about and didn't bother him at all.

 

And my sense from hangin' with him is he would be probably very cool dad to have. None of the heavy judgmental vibe I and so many kids I knew got just loving, fun to be around person.

[Trunk]

When I was at Tao Garden (which is a trip I won't repeat, and don't recommend *memories*) there was a woman and husband who lived there (I forget their names) and the woman would "twirl babies". A woman from the local village brought her baby to this woman, and she took the baby by an arm and leg and swung and twirled the baby around in a way that I'd never seen before. It was rather startling, actually. She explained that her husband did that to their kids until they were so heavy that he couldn't any more. The kids, apparently, liked it.

 

The more I've learned about the fascia, the joints, internal martial arts development, how emotions and power flow through the body (or don't), the more I've come to appreciate the "baby twirling". When I told the story to my martial arts instructor, he was very intent upon the story, appreciated it. I think that that practice could profoundly give a child a head-start on health on many levels. Hm, Its sort of like Circular Strength Training for little kids.

[Lozen]

Just wanted to add this to the thread..