Individuality and the Tao

[LaoTzu21]

Hi this is a question id like answered as its been on my mind alot. i am a musician looking for a way into the music world so i can express my thoughts and opinions. but i want this to come from a taoist perspective. this is what confuses me from everything that ive understood about tao and the esoteric practices, is that there isnt any room for individuality and its about letting go to be one with the universe. but what happens to the individual? if we can all reach that point of letting go and that point of understanding wont we be unified as one under one thought? how does one express themselves non egotistically and in accordance to tao. and to make others aware of the benefits of practising the tao. without sounding patronising. this is what i want to work on but its a thought that i am always giving alot of focus too and still haven't found an answer. it would be nice to hear your opinions.

[Apech]

I would say this. Individuality and Taoism are not incompatible, in fact the more you become tuned into the Tao the more individual you become because the creativity of the Tao is infinite. Oneness with the Tao would be expressed differently in each person.

 

The Tao is beyond definition but in relation to creating form appears to be the origin of everything and in relation what exists looks like its mother. It creates and sustains the 10,000 things i.e. the myriad forms of existence. If everyone tuned into the Tao then their action would be something like an amazing dance, each person with their own style and moves (individuality) and in harmony with the others but not all dancing the same - if you see what I mean. So certainly not uniformity in the usual sense.

 

Anyway that's my thoughts.

 

Cheers.

[LaoTzu21]

I would say this. Individuality and Taoism are not incompatible, in fact the more you become tuned into the Tao the more individual you become because the creativity of the Tao is infinite. Oneness with the Tao would be expressed differently in each person.

 

The Tao is beyond definition but in relation to creating form appears to be the origin of everything and in relation what exists looks like its mother. It creates and sustains the 10,000 things i.e. the myriad forms of existence. If everyone tuned into the Tao then their action would be something like an amazing dance, each person with their own style and moves (individuality) and in harmony with the others but not all dancing the same - if you see what I mean. So certainly not uniformity in the usual sense.

 

Anyway that's my thoughts.

 

Cheers.

 

interesting so you are saying if i just "be" i will be more creative? the thing is doing music is about expressing from within but i feel that within is constantly changing so i wouldn't be honest to the peopple im singing or playing too. if i write songs. im still a little confused about this topic

[Apech]

interesting so you are saying if i just "be" i will be more creative? the thing is doing music is about expressing from within but i feel that within is constantly changing so i wouldn't be honest to the peopple im singing or playing too. if i write songs. im still a little confused about this topic

 

No I didn't mean that. You said:

 

but what happens to the individual? if we can all reach that point of letting go and that point of understanding wont we be unified as one under one thought? how does one express themselves non egotistically and in accordance to tao.

 

I was trying to say its not one under one thought ... its infinite expression of what is beyond thought. Even if you write from personal experience, or especially, you are reflecting on it and the listeners can benefit from the thoughts and feeling you have .... even if its about struggle ... we all struggle and so on.

 

Hope this makes sense (if not ignore ).

[Stigweard]

Hi this is a question id like answered as its been on my mind alot. i am a musician looking for a way into the music world so i can express my thoughts and opinions. but i want this to come from a taoist perspective. this is what confuses me from everything that ive understood about tao and the esoteric practices, is that there isnt any room for individuality and its about letting go to be one with the universe. but what happens to the individual? if we can all reach that point of letting go and that point of understanding wont we be unified as one under one thought? how does one express themselves non egotistically and in accordance to tao. and to make others aware of the benefits of practising the tao. without sounding patronising. this is what i want to work on but its a thought that i am always giving alot of focus too and still haven't found an answer. it would be nice to hear your opinions.

It's a good inquiry ... do we dissolve into Dao and lose our individuality?

 

Well it's yes and no

 

What we lose is the sense of a separate self, a self that "stands on its own". What we gain is an integral self that interdependently shares the same essence as every other universal manifestation.

 

In Daoist parlance we have Dao 道 and De 德. Dao is the universal way of life, De is the Dao within us -- it is our true nature, our inner virtue. Our quest is to shed the sullied clothes of socialization and mental distortions and return to our pristine and innocent essential nature.

 

Each person will express their De uniquely just like each star in the universe sheds it's light uniquely. And I guess that is what Dao is all about -- allowing yourself to shed your light exactly the way it is

[LaoTzu21]

It's a good inquiry ... do we dissolve into Dao and lose our individuality?

 

Well it's yes and no

 

What we lose is the sense of a separate self, a self that "stands on its own". What we gain is an integral self that interdependently shares the same essence as every other universal manifestation.

 

In Daoist parlance we have Dao 道 and De 德. Dao is the universal way of life, De is the Dao within us -- it is our true nature, our inner virtue. Our quest is to shed the sullied clothes of socialization and mental distortions and return to our pristine and innocent essential nature.

 

Each person will express their De uniquely just like each star in the universe sheds it's light uniquely. And I guess that is what Dao is all about -- allowing yourself to shed your light exactly the way it is

 

but i mean your constantly refining this light inside. how can you give the truth of whats within without reaching the higher level to give peace and comfort to alot of people.

[Stigweard]

but i mean your constantly refining this light inside. how can you give the truth of whats within without reaching the higher level to give peace and comfort to alot of people.

 

Go outside right now, find a tree and ask that tree your question ... I am actually quite serious.

 

Sit and observe

[LaoTzu21]

 

Go outside right now, find a tree and ask that tree your question ... I am actually quite serious.

 

Sit and observe

 

please there is one thing about taoist im not liking and thats how vague they can be lol and u know what i mean

[Aetherous]

please there is one thing about taoist im not liking and thats how vague they can be lol and u know what i mean

 

Ok then, go outside of your house and find a tall tree. Then ask it a question, by whispering in its ear. Is that better?

[LaoTzu21]

Ok then, go outside of your house and find a tall tree. Then ask it a question, by whispering in its ear. Is that better?

 

how can you ask a tree a question? anyway were deviating from my original topic

[Taomeow]

Hi this is a question id like answered as its been on my mind alot. i am a musician looking for a way into the music world so i can express my thoughts and opinions. but i want this to come from a taoist perspective.

 

Nothing is easier! Get yourself a set of classical Han music CDs, available at Amazon, and make a habit of meditating to that. Musician+tao perspective is what they are.

 

this is what confuses me from everything that ive understood about tao and the esoteric practices, is that there isnt any room for individuality and its about letting go to be one with the universe. but what happens to the individual? if we can all reach that point of letting go and that point of understanding wont we be unified as one under one thought? how does one express themselves non egotistically and in accordance to tao. and to make others aware of the benefits of practising the tao. without sounding patronising. this is what i want to work on but its a thought that i am always giving alot of focus too and still haven't found an answer. it would be nice to hear your opinions.

 

The perspective you've suggested is absolutely un-taoist though web-popular as such. You chose a famous name for yourself -- do you remember the chapter where Laozi contrasts himself, an individual, with the rest of the people? "all people are bright, I alone am dull... all people are busy, I alone am idle... all people are this and that, I alone am such and such..." How much more individualistic can you get, pitching yourself against the habitual ways of the whole community?.. Individuality thrives on taoism, but in ways uncommon, un-western... like with all tao-supported opposites, you get to be an individual only if you thoroughly internalize the universalities, and you get to be universal only if you are unique. "Qi blows at ten thousand things ten thousand different ways so each can be itself."

 

Read Eva Wong's Tales of the Taoist Immortals for another example... unique individuals all of them, you can't confuse one with the other...

[LaoTzu21]

Nothing is easier! Get yourself a set of classical Han music CDs, available at Amazon, and make a habit of meditating to that. Musician+tao perspective is what they are.

 

 

 

The perspective you've suggested is absolutely un-taoist though web-popular as such. You chose a famous name for yourself -- do you remember the chapter where Laozi contrasts himself, an individual, with the rest of the people? "all people are bright, I alone am dull... all people are busy, I alone am idle... all people are this and that, I alone am such and such..." How much more individualistic can you get, pitching yourself against the habitual ways of the whole community?.. Individuality thrives on taoism, but in ways uncommon, un-western... like with all tao-supported opposites, you get to be an individual only if you thoroughly internalize the universalities, and you get to be universal only if you are unique. "Qi blows at ten thousand things ten thousand different ways so each can be itself."

 

Read Eva Wong's Tales of the Taoist Immortals for another example... unique individuals all of them, you can't confuse one with the other...

 

im still trying to understand in more simplistic terms

[Taomeow]

im still trying to understand in more simplistic terms

 

Fair enough... I'll try the simplest terms I can think of:

 

for a musician, listening to classical Han music, based by its creators on taoist principles, can provide a feel for these things which words can't convey;

 

many taoist concepts are impossible to grasp outside a practice, though people who are not practicing any taoist practices do talk a bundle about these concepts;

 

absolutely everything people say about taoist principles who do not live taoist lives and do not practice taoist practices is invalid;

 

individuality and its interplay with the oneness of tao is one such concept;

 

so pick up a taoist practice and don't worry about theory, philosophy, or principles until you come to a place where you find you're practicing too much and not thinking enough. The signs will be, you are very healthy, very happy, very serene, at peace with yourself, have a heart full of joy, but are not taken seriously by highbrow people. If you can live with that, live with that. If you can't, read Joseph Needham and use him as a weapon to beat their high brows down with.

[LaoTzu21]

Fair enough... I'll try the simplest terms I can think of:

 

for a musician, listening to classical Han music, based by its creators on taoist principles, can provide a feel for these things which words can't convey;

 

many taoist concepts are impossible to grasp outside a practice, though people who are not practicing any taoist practices do talk a bundle about these concepts;

 

absolutely everything people say about taoist principles who do not live taoist lives and do not practice taoist practices is invalid;

 

individuality and its interplay with the oneness of tao is one such concept;

 

so pick up a taoist practice and don't worry about theory, philosophy, or principles until you come to a place where you find you're practicing too much and not thinking enough. The signs will be, you are very healthy, very happy, very serene, at peace with yourself, have a heart full of joy, but are not taken seriously by highbrow people. If you can live with that, live with that. If you can't, read Joseph Needham and use him as a weapon to beat their high brows down with.

so your saying a taoist approach to music is mostly instrumental? what if you want to voice opinions? and sing about them the closest ive got to taoist music is frank zappa. minus the part where he got involved in politics.

[Taomeow]

so your saying a taoist approach to music is mostly instrumental? what if you want to voice opinions? and sing about them the closest ive got to taoist music is frank zappa. minus the part where he got involved in politics.

 

Well, of course there's songs with words in the taoist tradition. They do not express opinions though, as a rule. They express feelings, moods, movements of the human heart, the human eye, the whole array of senses and emotions... They use striking poetic images but seldom far-fetched ones -- they are closer to immediate observations, often so precise as to be palpable... This is the tradition of taoist poetry, it paints pictures. An opinion that paints a picture is probably possible to express but that would be a top level artistic accomplishment, so I would leave that for later... and start out the traditional way.

[LaoTzu21]

Well, of course there's songs with words in the taoist tradition. They do not express opinions though, as a rule. They express feelings, moods, movements of the human heart, the human eye, the whole array of senses and emotions... They use striking poetic images but seldom far-fetched ones -- they are closer to immediate observations, often so precise as to be palpable... This is the tradition of taoist poetry, it paints pictures. An opinion that paints a picture is probably possible to express but that would be a top level artistic accomplishment, so I would leave that for later... and start out the traditional way.

 

he thing is i believe ive been assigned the task of bringing together tai chi onstage with modern rock music and visioning it together as one theatric show i just want to do it in a way that doesnt look pretentious or egotistical or patronising

[Aetherous]

Good luck.

[Vajrahridaya]

Is Taoism Monist? As in, we are all one basic substance, "the Tao"?

[Stigweard]

Is Taoism Monist? As in, we are all one basic substance, "the Tao"?

Now now Vaj ... question like that lead to the arguments we have had in the past ... you know the answer so let's not go there shall we.

[Vajrahridaya]

Now now Vaj ... question like that lead to the arguments we have had in the past ... you know the answer so let's not go there shall we.

 

I actually don't want to argue and wasn't planning on responding. I really just wanted the different views from the different types of Taoists here. I'm done arguing like that... it's pointless in this room. It's better to debate with Buddhists about refining the view within those that already study the path. I'm just curious about the different views here concerning my question, thanks.

[Guest paul walter]

he thing is i believe ive been assigned the task of bringing together tai chi onstage with modern rock music and visioning it together as one theatric show i just want to do it in a way that doesnt look pretentious or egotistical or patronising

 

 

Hi Laotzu--you're way off the mark in your theories of 'taoist' this and that. You are of course confusing it all with ego production and the 'benefits' that brings (pulling chicks, getting noticed, making money, having others like you where you can't like yourself? ). It's one of the 'real' meanings of art production that it is a total fraud and con job on those who create it and listen/partake of it. You are searching for answers (purity) to areas of your life, no? keep going into the emptiness and see what's left. Perhaps the Kurosawa anthology of shakuhachi music or taoists music, taoist calligraphy, haiku or zenga/enso paintings will give you more of an idea of what tao and art can be. The examples you mention of modern music (Zappa, tai-chi-Lou Reed) really represents an attempt out of the impasse of western forms of expression/art. These guys are just a few in a long line of types who have sought to keep something going that has long been dead (western artistic expression)--it's more about making chaos out of order (coming from sense perception, their view on society) than the discovery of the ordering behind chaos (taoist perception, coming from their view of the universe). It's all ego, but those guys are trying to refine it to a degree where they are comfortable with it since the world they live in is pretty unbearable to a lot of them. Leonard Cohen, Brian Eno does the same thing. Merzbow is probably the pre-eminent musician working in the'modern' form who most captures the 'tao'--still, you have to be aware of natural sound in order for his 'music' to make sense to the senses as we have inherited them...Anything that smacks of "music" as such is to be suspect--the closer you can get to sound the safer you are (Zappa knew this through his knowledge of Edgar Vareses music). You could also see the writings/compositions of John Cage if you really need to study this (he was a zen and taoist guy and an anarchist--did 'chance'-based compositions composed by his throwings of the I-Ching) Paul.

Edited September 20, 2010 by paul walter

[C T]

Sometimes, in order to excel in one particular field, one has to incorporate interests in a few other pursuits to create perspective, contrast, and most of all, inspiration.

 

Many Chinese musicians are keen calligraphers. Others do Tai Chi. Some take up badminton or basketball. Ping Pong? Anything that can add to the storehouse of potential in a positive manner can be helpful in your creative pursuits, albeit in a 'sideways' fashion.

 

Even the rustling of leaves in the wind, when listened to attentively, is a form of 'music'. Its all about nuances.

(Didnt one member suggest sitting with a tree?)

 

May i suggest Ikebana?

[Birch]

I gotta ask. If a person is not practicing some form of meditative/contemplative/introspective something, how much of an individual are they to start with?

 

If they do practice, how much of an individual does that make them?

 

I always have to wonder this about myself. The answers are surprising and not always pleasant. Letting other people tell me how weird I am is a good gauge

 

But doesn't Taoist 5E also attempt to classify people into types based on their elemental composition? Bazi?

[Marblehead]

I gotta ask. If a person is not practicing some form of meditative/contemplative/introspective something, how much of an individual are they to start with?

 

Hey! Are you trying to intentionally offend me? Hehehe. I have pointed out before that I do not have a specific practice. I do whatever I am inspired to do. True, maybe I am not all that "good" at any of them but what I do satisfies my needs. Is there anything I am missing?

 

If they do practice, how much of an individual does that make them?

 

I answer your question with a question. If a Christian goes to church on Sunday, how much of an individual does that make them?

 

Peace & Love!

[LaoTzu21]

so from the understanding from some so far the answer seems to be keep practising what you are doing and the answers will unfold right? its just that some times i feel like i dont know who i am compared to the vast complexities of this universe and knowledge. its like where do i fit in whats my role? surely not to sit and meditate for a whole life time. altho im understanding the benefits of that but still i do want to be more active than that. even tho doing nothing is doing everything. i really want to establish who i am within this universe with no contradictions, no lies and no compromise. and im finding it really hard to mix taoism and be an individual. either that or i dont understand things too well.i do have a teacher but i havnt spoken about this. plus the whole sex issue, if we were born in two groups male and female sex that means it must be natural to have sex. so why do hermit toaists choose not too, to become immortal surely there is an immortal couple out there or has been. its not like we were born one sex like a snail.