Individuality and the Tao

[三江源]

Taoist practices shed the layers of you which arent really you, and then you can be authentically who you actually might be at any given moment.

 

A difference will be your relation to who you might be will be looser, more free, unstickied. This means that you wont be attached to making a narrative about yourself and presenting yourself as a fixed article.

 

No need to self mythologise, no need to say "I" so much, and no need to self define define define endless likes dislikes opinions and blah blah blah..

 

you can be more fluid. more responsive. less power based.

 

Tis a common fear, the loss of identity that might ensue if one tampers in some way with the sense of self. Interesting in itself, that we fear losing that which we arent sure of... the shakier the sense of self, the greater the need to hold onto it.

 

Actually what gets lost are the accrued complexes, nothing we chose or created.

[LaoTzu21]

Taoist practices shed the layers of you which arent really you, and then you can be authentically who you actually might be at any given moment.

 

A difference will be your relation to who you might be will be looser, more free, unstickied. This means that you wont be attached to making a narrative about yourself and presenting yourself as a fixed article.

 

No need to self mythologise, no need to say "I" so much, and no need to self define define define endless likes dislikes opinions and blah blah blah..

 

you can be more fluid. more responsive. less power based.

 

Tis a common fear, the loss of identity that might ensue if one tampers in some way with the sense of self. Interesting in itself, that we fear losing that which we arent sure of... the shakier the sense of self, the greater the need to hold onto it.

 

Actually what gets lost are the accrued complexes, nothing we chose or created.

 

hmm like shrek and the onion thing we have many layers etc etc. lol so what your saying is peal back the layers to see whats inside and you can only do that if you let go? so your saying if i let go of understanding who i am i will understand?

 

 

 

[三江源]

hmm like shrek and the onion thing we have many layers etc etc. lol so what your saying is peal back the layers to see whats inside and you can only do that if you let go? so your saying if i let go of understanding who i am i will understand?

 

 

 

 

Hi there.

I'm giving generic comments here, as I havent met you before..so...

... actually it might be the thing to forget about 'understanding' anything with your thoughts for a while, yes. Because we dont understand who we are, anyhow, so telling ourselves we do is a terrific fiction and limitation anyhow.

 

It's a good thing to cultivate a sense of humour about your identity. You could enjoy the creativity of having created a persona, the joke of walking about inhabiting it. Loosen the bonds a little. Big changes can happen from sitting slightly differently in your seat, metaphorically speaking.

 

I wouldnt like to suggest that the end result of experimenting will be 'understanding'... it might be that the end result is less of an attachment to the fiction of understanding..

 

I do believe one needs quite a lot of understanding and knowledge in order to reach a place from which one can let it go.

 

It's the classic Hero's Journey. The Fool must step on the path to begin...

[Marblehead]

hmm like shrek and the onion thing we have many layers etc etc. lol so what your saying is peal back the layers to see whats inside and you can only do that if you let go? so your saying if i let go of understanding who i am i will understand?

 

I think Cat's reply is very valuable and accurate. Many words to say the same thing. Unlearn so that you can know your true self. Once you know your true self it will be easy to determine if you are where you should be or if you need make an effort to get to where you feel you should be.

 

Yes, I will even say "Be productive" during this lifetime of yours. It is a great feeling, I assure you. And stop worrying yourself about sex. Sex is a natural instinct. If you find a willing partner - do it!

 

Peace & Love!

[Birch]

"Hey! Are you trying to intentionally offend me? Hehehe."

 

 

Um, was my dumb question addressed to you Mt MH? (Gotta ask why you drove by and got "offended"

 

"I have pointed out before that I do not have a specific practice. I do whatever I am inspired to do."

 

Even if it's to take offense where non is offered ?

 

True, maybe I am not all that "good" at any of them but what I do satisfies my needs. Is there anything I am missing?

 

I dunno. Maybe not. If you say so.

 

 

"I answer your question with a question. If a Christian goes to church on Sunday, how much of an individual does that make them?"

 

Hum, does this Christian's Sunday churchgoing include introspective/meditative/contemplative things? If not, I'm not sure I can compare it with what I was referring to.

 

Otherwise, what Cat said

[Taomeow]

Sometimes, in order to excel in one particular field, one has to incorporate interests in a few other pursuits to create perspective, contrast, and most of all, inspiration.

 

Many Chinese musicians are keen calligraphers. Others do Tai Chi. Some take up badminton or basketball. Ping Pong? Anything that can add to the storehouse of potential in a positive manner can be helpful in your creative pursuits, albeit in a 'sideways' fashion.

 

Even the rustling of leaves in the wind, when listened to attentively, is a form of 'music'. Its all about nuances.

(Didnt one member suggest sitting with a tree?)

 

May i suggest Ikebana?

 

Yes to all of the above. Saturate your perceptions and starve your conceptions -- that's the universal recipe for a taoist beginner, IMO. Most Westerners go the other way around about it... and, alas, not only beginners.

 

Rule of thumb: if it's too metaphysical, if it asks you to handle your "self" a particular way rather than your work or your play, it is missing the mark. Let your body and your mind be occupied with something simultaneously -- the same thing both together -- something other than "self" and ideas "around" and "about" it -- and that's when the "self" will dissolve into your practice, your work, your play, your relationships, into nature, into nurture... into tao. By contrast, if you let your body be occupied with one thing, your mind with another, never notice they are doing different or even opposite things, ruminate on the "self this" and "self that" and "ego this" and "ego that" while your body is doing something entirely unrelated and your senses are running on idle -- and you will have entered the most popular practice out there, the practice of slicing soup.

[Birch]

I dunno, I quite like slicing soup

[Marblehead]

 

Um, was my dumb question addressed to you Mt MH? (Gotta ask why you drove by and got "offended"

 

 

I was just messing with you. You know how to take a joke and you are not shy about responding.

 

Tao is all about individuality. Confucianism and Buddhism and Christianity are about conformity.

 

I think that this is what makes Taoism such a beautiful philosophy.

 

Peace & Love!

[Taomeow]

I dunno, I quite like slicing soup

Who doesn't?..

 

Gotta ask why you drove by and got "offended"

 

That's a keeper! How many times I ran into this problem at forums -- I'm shooting my rounds peacefully, launching my missiles, detonating my nuclear devices, business as usual... everything in a private-personal/keep-out-for-your-own-safety training ground, just working on my demolition skills with no live targets in mind... and hey presto, along comes a drive-by shootee and gets in the line of fire and claims I hit him/her directly and on purpose! Where was your wisdom when I grappled with the predicament not knowing how to say "I'm minding MY business here, not yours! Keep driving toward YOUR business, not mine! And if you choose to drive into the line of fire, in fact swerve in order to get in my range, tear your shirt and bare your chest/bosom to the hazards and get hit in this manner... well, just drop dead or something, it's not my fault!"

 

Marblehead was just kidding though I think... I don't think he got offended, I think he just felt like test-driving the "I'm offended" vehicle across your training ground... am I right, Marble?..

[Marblehead]

Marblehead was just kidding though I think... I don't think he got offended, I think he just felt like test-driving the "I'm offended" vehicle across your training ground... am I right, Marble?..

 

Of course I wasn't offended. Was just messing around. Hehehe.

 

I know that Kate is tough else I would never would have made such a post.

 

Peace & Love!

[Taomeow]

Of course I wasn't offended. Was just messing around. Hehehe.

 

I know that Kate is tough else I would never would have made such a post.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yeah, I see you synchronistically posted exactly this explanation seconds before my entry... I swear I didn't see it, I just read your mind, is all.

[gendao]

Is Taoism Monist? As in, we are all one basic substance, "the Tao"?

I would say no.

 

Dao is a WAY. "Way" is not a substance. More of a manner of operation, a path flow...than a thing.

 

So, it's actually a pretty deep philosophy to observe the "ultimate nature" of things as a "flowing process" rather than a material "substance."

Edited September 21, 2010 by vortex

[Marblehead]

I would say no.

 

Dao is a WAY. "Way" is not a substance. More of a manner of operation, a path flow...than a thing.

 

So, it's actually a pretty deep philosophy to observe the "ultimate nature" of things as a "flowingness" than a material "substance."

 

Hi Vortex,

 

I think you hit on a very important point here. All too often we want to define what Tao is. Tao cannot be spoken. Whatever we say will always be incomplete and valid for only certain periods of time.

 

The Way, however, is what we should be speaking about. The Way and its Virtue.

 

Peace & Love!

[Vajrahridaya]

I would say no.

 

Dao is a WAY. "Way" is not a substance. More of a manner of operation, a path flow...than a thing.

 

So, it's actually a pretty deep philosophy to observe the "ultimate nature" of things as a "flowing process" than a material "substance."

 

Yes see, I can completely agree with that. That perfectly integrates with my own insight, experience and Buddhism. That means liberation is actually possible instead of merely re-absorption.

[Vajrahridaya]

Hi Vortex,

 

I think you hit on a very important point here. All too often we want to define what Tao is. Tao cannot be spoken. Whatever we say will always be incomplete and valid for only certain periods of time.

 

The Way, however, is what we should be speaking about. The Way and its Virtue.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Right, it's the way of things, and being at one with the way of things, one flows with life, and does not resist change and transformation... one enjoys the transience.

[hagar]

Hi this is a question id like answered as its been on my mind alot. i am a musician looking for a way into the music world so i can express my thoughts and opinions. but i want this to come from a taoist perspective. this is what confuses me from everything that ive understood about tao and the esoteric practices, is that there isnt any room for individuality and its about letting go to be one with the universe. but what happens to the individual? if we can all reach that point of letting go and that point of understanding wont we be unified as one under one thought? how does one express themselves non egotistically and in accordance to tao. and to make others aware of the benefits of practising the tao. without sounding patronising. this is what i want to work on but its a thought that i am always giving alot of focus too and still haven't found an answer. it would be nice to hear your opinions.

 

Well, once in a while there's some examples of very valid and interesting questions here. Many good replies too.

 

I think your question introduces a much more complex matter we might think. Now, it's 4 am and I have a toothache, so I won't go into it guns blazing, but a couple of comments are in order:

 

You get into trouble with your questioning because you mix two or three different lines of inquiry, not necessarily sharing any common ground.

The primary is that or overcoming the dilemma of "integrating" or maintaining an ego existence with spiritual practice or life.

The second is about individual expression and western art/music and also, eh, aesthetics.

The third is the ambition of utilizing art to embody Daoist principles.

 

The only thing I can say is that having an "individuality" is something you allways will have. You don't maintain your shadow, its just there. If you have a spiritual realization, you still have an ego. But its not calling the shots anymore.

Your own way of expressing your "individual" nature through music has its place, but its not necessarily a Daoist thing. Every expression is a facet of the Dao, yet if you think your individuality needs to be kept in competition with some ego-lessness, your living under a misapprehention. Egos dont get enlightenend. You get to the Dao through forgetting and substraction, not fusion. Yet there is always some individual flavour of how your true Nature gets expressed through your personality.

My personal advice would be NOT to mix Tai Chi and Rock music. Even Jimmy Hendrix couldnt pull that one off. Tai Chi is is all about cultivating the absence of something. Rock is about the presence. Its like oil and water.

 

The issue of manifesting your insight into what you do, intending to reveal Daoist teaching into art is tricky. Its happens non-intentionally. Yet if you realize the truth, tying your shoe laces can be a teaching.

 

God my tooth hurts!

 

h

Edited September 21, 2010 by hagar

[Birch]

Who doesn't?..

 

 

 

That's a keeper! How many times I ran into this problem at forums -- I'm shooting my rounds peacefully, launching my missiles, detonating my nuclear devices, business as usual... everything in a private-personal/keep-out-for-your-own-safety training ground, just working on my demolition skills with no live targets in mind... and hey presto, along comes a drive-by shootee and gets in the line of fire and claims I hit him/her directly and on purpose! Where was your wisdom when I grappled with the predicament not knowing how to say "I'm minding MY business here, not yours! Keep driving toward YOUR business, not mine! And if you choose to drive into the line of fire, in fact swerve in order to get in my range, tear your shirt and bare your chest/bosom to the hazards and get hit in this manner... well, just drop dead or something, it's not my fault!"

 

Marblehead was just kidding though I think... I don't think he got offended, I think he just felt like test-driving the "I'm offended" vehicle across your training ground... am I right, Marble?..

 

 

Um, except I wasn't firing...Does the firing only happen if someone drives by?

And I don't seem to take kindly to being told I'm "tough". I'm not "tough" and I wasn't firing. Bleh, forums.

 

Still, very very good post TaoMeow.

[al.]

so from the understanding from some so far the answer seems to be keep practising what you are doing and the answers will unfold right? its just that some times i feel like i dont know who i am compared to the vast complexities of this universe and knowledge. its like where do i fit in whats my role? surely not to sit and meditate for a whole life time. altho im understanding the benefits of that but still i do want to be more active than that. even tho doing nothing is doing everything. i really want to establish who i am within this universe with no contradictions, no lies and no compromise. and im finding it really hard to mix taoism and be an individual. either that or i dont understand things too well.i do have a teacher but i havnt spoken about this. plus the whole sex issue, if we were born in two groups male and female sex that means it must be natural to have sex. so why do hermit toaists choose not too, to become immortal surely there is an immortal couple out there or has been. its not like we were born one sex like a snail.

 

Hey, you might find useful the words of Hazrat Inayat Khan. He was a magical musician and singer, and also walked the way, with grace and eloquence I might add.

 

"To a person who knows life's music the art of personality comes naturally; and it is not only inartistic but also unmusical when a soul shows lack of this art in the personality. When a man looks at every soul as a note of music and learns to recognize what note it is, flat or sharp, high or low, and to what pitch it belongs, then he becomes the knower of souls, and he knows how to deal with everybody."

 

his works can be found at:

http://wahiduddin.net/mv2/III/III_III_2.htm

a

[三江源]

Well, once in a while there's some examples of very valid and interesting questions here. Many good replies too.

 

I think your question introduces a much more complex matter we might think. Now, it's 4 am and I have a toothache, so I won't go into it guns blazing, but a couple of comments are in order:

 

You get into trouble with your questioning because you mix two or three different lines of inquiry, not necessarily sharing any common ground.

The primary is that or overcoming the dilemma of "integrating" or maintaining an ego existence with spiritual practice or life.

The second is about individual expression and western art/music and also, eh, aesthetics.

The third is the ambition of utilizing art to embody Daoist principles.

 

The only thing I can say is that having an "individuality" is something you allways will have. You don't maintain your shadow, its just there. If you have a spiritual realization, you still have an ego. But its not calling the shots anymore.

Your own way of expressing your "individual" nature through music has its place, but its not necessarily a Daoist thing. Every expression is a facet of the Dao, yet if you think your individuality needs to be kept in competition with some ego-lessness, your living under a misapprehention. Egos dont get enlightenend. You get to the Dao through forgetting and substraction, not fusion. Yet there is always some individual flavour of how your true Nature gets expressed through your personality.

My personal advice would be NOT to mix Tai Chi and Rock music. Even Jimmy Hendrix couldnt pull that one off. Tai Chi is is all about cultivating the absence of something. Rock is about the presence. Its like oil and water.

 

The issue of manifesting your insight into what you do, intending to reveal Daoist teaching into art is tricky. Its happens non-intentionally. Yet if you realize the truth, tying your shoe laces can be a teaching.

 

God my tooth hurts!

 

h

 

First of all, I hope your tooth is getting sorted and it isnt hurting any more. ( CLOVE OIL! TEA TREE OIL!)

 

Second of all, Brian Eno. ( If I can mention him at any time, I will. Explain him, no, I cant.)

[hagar]

First of all, I hope your tooth is getting sorted and it isnt hurting any more. ( CLOVE OIL! TEA TREE OIL!)

 

Second of all, Brian Eno. ( If I can mention him at any time, I will. Explain him, no, I cant.)

 

Tea tree oil works and I forgot Eno. Takk

 

h

[Taomeow]

Um, except I wasn't firing...Does the firing only happen if someone drives by?

And I don't seem to take kindly to being told I'm "tough". I'm not "tough" and I wasn't firing. Bleh, forums.

 

Still, very very good post TaoMeow.

 

 

I know you weren't firing, I meant I liked your metaphor and it will come back to me when/if I am.

 

I am neither tough nor not tough.

[Marblehead]

And I don't seem to take kindly to being told I'm "tough". I'm not "tough" and I wasn't firing. Bleh, forums.

 

I apologize for that entire affair.

 

Peace & Love!

[Guru Grimmer]

Hey dude!!!

 

I am a musician and long time practitioner too so I know where you're coming from.

 

1st of all, a great book you definitely should read to get a deep understanding here is "drumming the spirit to life"; by Russell Buddy Helm. This man is one of few that helps convey the meditative path that lies in being a musician. T(d)oism is really just a word to describe something wordless. It's funny really when you think about it.

 

So the point is, just because I'm a Taoist/Buddhist, or whatever, doesn't mean I don't ever say anything. Saying something is sometimes necessary to help another in the path of realisation. Music is a form of language, a play of form only. It's a pointer, or a sign to an experience. That is why we can feel the story in a song. Just as we do a poem or piece of art.

 

Chap, if you meditate regularly, and realise your ultimate nature through direct experience of it, these kinds of questions will answer themselves, because you already have all the wisdom waiting in the unlimited nature we all share as our true root or nature (words eh?, they just don't quite cut it : )).

 

For now though, in case you don't go and get started on meditating yourself, keep in mind that individuality is actually irrelevant at the deepest level. It doesn't really exist at all apart from our interdependent experience of it; it is a projection by the mind, that we experience. Look at it yourself. Can the seemingly separate experience exist without the mind to perceive it? What happens when you dream? Looks and feels real doesn't it? Is it real? Words again : /

 

Scientists are proving that matter itself is inherently interdependent on something to perceive it as matter, through examining the deepest elements they've found like quarks etc. Einstein had this understanding pegged as a theory years ago. He's worth checking out aswell. If you want advice on direct exercises you can do to see this stuff for yourself directly, let me know. There are some great teachers and books, but there's also a lot of vague re-hashed stuff out there.

 

I don't want to talk too much on this so I'll leave it to you to further experience - personal experience being the most important, you can't swim by reading a book about it. "The way cannot be put in to words".

 

So moving on, as individuality is a misconception; everything we live is more like a ride or dream than a individual experience. SO, even these words, and 'you' reading them.

 

So what if it's not real!! The point is, is it useful? Does the communication help wake you up out of misconception/suffering or harm you? That's what's important. A great quote by the Buddha (Siddhartha Gautama) on this is -

 

"Only speak if speaking improves on silence"

 

Sometimes sharing your honest story can help another to realise something important in themselves. Like how to be honest themselves, or they may see a virtuous principle hidden in your words.

 

This is why integrity in musical sharing is a powerful force for positive cultural change, especially for someone like you, who is walking the path of realisation and communication all at once. That can really make a difference. When I grew up, I went through a lot of physical and emotional abuse. Good healthy honest music is what gave me the strength to not kill myself for fear of waking up to another day of suffering. It can be that powerful.

 

Someone mentioned Jimi (Hendrix) earlier. I recommend you check out some of his interviews and you'll see he felt the same way. He is still revered for his great work. Why? A number of reasons, too long to include here.

 

I am not advocating we all as musicians need to copy him and take up acid or anything like he did ...

 

... I didn't need to to get a realisation of all this stuff. I'll go more in to my past some other time. Walk your path bro. Be honest and get a personal taste of these wonderful teachings we've been blessed with by hard working dedicated spiritual practitioners; musicians, poets, artists, comedians, speakers, teachers etc that actually cared. Because they knew we're all one mind, some didn't but still shared virtuous principles like integrity and insight, which can be life changing for some.

 

Blessings chap, I hope that clears it up for you, but feel free to ask me any questions you have on it bro

 

: ))))

 

Phew ... longest post yet ... hahahaa

[LaoTzu21]

wow guru grimmer that really spoke volumes to me. i do believe jimi hendrix is inside me as a part of my connection to music its like i can feel him sometimes. i have the innate ability to think about the person i want to emulate and then it just comes out. like playing a game of which person am i now within my music. its good fun. i also saw something that inspired me too a video posted about the difference in lao tzu and chaung tzu. chaung tzu let go by doing things spontaneously which appeals to my nature. so i came to the conclusion that by writing songs = the art of letting go of something. which in-turn will help others let go of there daily stresses and there worries and woes. i think i need to start writing ive always had this fear that what if im not good enough to produce anything remarkable. im quite a perfectionist when it comes to things i care about. sometimes its more unhealthy than good. i will definitely look into writing more but i dont know when the best time to start is.

[3deedit]

Ok then, go outside of your house and find a tall tree. Then ask it a question, by whispering in its ear. Is that better?

Verse 11 of the TAO shows you how the make tools that can answer your question

 

Verse 73 is the logical response to your inquiring mind

(the rule : a TAO verse interacts with the diminishing of the verse number with 19

If the TAO verse number is smaller than 20 then add 62 to know the response)

 

so here verse 11 leads to 73 : click on 11

 

to fabricate the tool : Page 2

 

and have a dictionary that uses example sentences that explain the words...

I use the " Longman Dictionary of Contemporary English - edition 2003)

or you can use the on line version. Instead of asking a page number

ask with the pendulum 3 starting letters followed by an asterisk sign

Ask what word and explanation that has the answer to your question,

 

All your questions shall be answered...

 

Taoistic Greetz

3deedit

Edited September 30, 2010 by 3deedit