Lifting Weights

[Upfromtheashes]

Hello

I am curious if anyone here has an opinion on weightlifting both its long term effects on the body and how it may affect energy work - Some opinions say that it is a drain on the body - makes the muscles too hard -

Many seem to think that energy practices will suffer

Opinions ?

[Encephalon]

Bad laptop. No donut.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Blasto

[Encephalon]

Oh, boy... now you've done it. Gonna getta lotta feedback on this one.

 

4 years ago, when I turned 46, I became a personal trainer in LA, partially out of a desire to help people, partially out of a need for $$, but also because I wanted to gain a few pounds and have a free gym to do it in. At least three years were spent working out 2-4 hours a day, 4 days a week. I didn't gain that much, and actually lost weight, but that was because I fell in love with strength training and lost interest in size. Besides, when you're 11-12 percent bodyfat, you look muscular anyway.

 

I was virtually the only trainer who took flexibility and yoga classes seriously, being the "old hippy" of the group, and it was the perfect combination; strength training with deep flexibility. Pound per pound I was the strongest, and smallest, male trainer there, and hands down the most flexible. I invested in kettlebells and put on a freak show.

 

Looking back, I can see why my joints make more noise than they need to, but the fact is that strength remains the godfather of all other fitness criteria. Strength will grant you the "mind/muscle connection" faster than any other form of fitness...BUT.. and this is critical... you MUST balance flexibility with strength. One should never exceed the other by too much. This makes sense for many intuitive reasons, but as this pertains to energy work, your capacity to relax in order to feel your incipient chi flow is essential, and the right combo of strength and flexiblility will grant upon you a well-honed capacity for deep relaxation. The feeling of "effortless effort," that exquisite feeling of bolting up a long flight of stairs without even feeling it, is the state of fitness you're after, fertile ground for feeling your chi.

 

Almost anything else you hear on this thread about the negative side of weightlifting will no doubt be true, but it may be soundly indicated at some juncture of your life and ill-advised at other times. By far, the greatest joy in my strength-training career was when I took a break from exercise for about 4 months and did nothing but finish my thesis and practice nei kung. When I returned to working out with my clients, I was absolutely blown away by the absence of soreness following my microcosmic orbit opening up. My kettlebell routines leave people sore as hell, but I was without it. I can only assume, based on the literature, that our nervous systems get much more efficient at triggering the motor neurons, so our musculature seems less taxed. That's my working hypothesis away.

Edited September 21, 2010 by Blasto

[Mattimo]

A great well-rounded response Blasto.

[Upfromtheashes]

A great well-rounded response Blasto.

 

Agreed yes thank You that is very Helpful

[Vajrasattva]

if you lift weights and do chi kung or MCO or 5pb you will not get sore as much and you will remain flexible.

 

 

I see no issue between weights and Chi development. Shaolin & Russians have been doing well with this stuff for centuries.

[goldisheavy]

if you lift weights and do chi kung or MCO or 5pb you will not get sore as much and you will remain flexible.

 

 

I see no issue between weights and Chi development. Shaolin & Russians have been doing well with this stuff for centuries.

 

I am aware of Russians using kettlebells for a very long time, but I don't know of any of them trying to develop chi at the same time. Chi is not a Russian concept, as far as I know. There is no Russian analogue for chi. When Russians want to discuss chi, they use loan words like we do in English. Perhaps if you stretch a bit, you can convince yourself that "boi na lubki" as practiced by the Opheni ethnic minority (originating from Greece, supposedly, and not exactly Russian in my view) is something that may combine weight training with "chi." Except there is no obvious analogue to chi and nakat (overwhelming of the opponents consciousness using non-contact methods) is explained with consciousness and symbols and not with chi. Plus there is no obvious advocacy of weight training either by any of the last surviving elders, who are all dead now, that I know of. Maybe I am missing something.

 

You're probably right about the Shaolin though. I think the monks there did perform both strength training and qi gong.

[hagar]

I am aware of Russians using kettlebells for a very long time, but I don't know of any of them trying to develop chi at the same time. Chi is not a Russian concept, as far as I know. There is no Russian analogue for chi. When Russians want to discuss chi, they use loan words like we do in English. Perhaps if you stretch a bit, you can convince yourself that "boi na lubki" as practiced by the Opheni ethnic minority (originating from Greece, supposedly, and not exactly Russian in my view) is something that may combine weight training with "chi." Except there is no obvious analogue to chi and nakat (overwhelming of the opponents consciousness using non-contact methods) is explained with consciousness and symbols and not with chi. Plus there is no obvious advocacy of weight training either by any of the last surviving elders, who are all dead now, that I know of. Maybe I am missing something.

 

You're probably right about the Shaolin though. I think the monks there did perform both strength training and qi gong.

 

I second Blasto here.

Being a climber myself, doing alot of extreme strength training, especially related to hard bouldering, I'd say balance is key. One thing is training to increase bulk, another is how you gain strength without utilizing the chi, which most strength regimens do.

My personal experience is that specialized strength training hardens the ligaments and decreases flexibility, so better do alot of qigong and dao yin to compensate.

Ideally, when I've done alot of qigong, often strength and flexibility has come instantly.

 

h

[markern]

I have done one session of clubbels. It left me feeling stronger and strong in a fuller range of motion. It also left me feeling more flexible in my joints. It also left me feeling a smotther flow of chi. Weights training tend to leave me feeling like I have done good in some way and like my muscles are like sponges that have been squised witch is ggod for chi flow but also that I have created small damages that give a feeling of iiritability in the muscles, fascia etc. This iiritability seems bad for chi flow. Especially the harmony of chi flow. Based on this exepreince I`d say go with clubbels as oposed to weights. Myself I am going to sticjk to the weights for some time but that is only a matter of practical concerns. I am going over to clubbles eventually.

[goldisheavy]

In Chinese books that I've read, it's been said that to harness Chi one has to give up one's addiction to Li (translated as physical strength). So, at least in the few materials I've read, there is a kind of opposition between chi and li. Personally, I don't believe there is any opposition. We create the opposition in our minds, if anything, but we don't have to create it.

[markern]

if you lift weights and do chi kung or MCO or 5pb you will not get sore as much and you will remain flexible.

 

 

I see no issue between weights and Chi development. Shaolin & Russians have been doing well with this stuff for centuries.

 

You mentioned once doing kettlebels combined with breathing practices. How does on do that? Not asking for precise instructions just a general idea.

[Encephalon]

You mentioned once doing kettlebels combined with breathing practices. How does on do that? Not asking for precise instructions just a general idea.

 

It depends on the routine. Some call for holding your breath to stabilize your abdomen, some call for linking the exhalation to the motion that naturally squeezes the lungs, such as a KB swing with moderate weight, reversed with heavy weight. There's really no short answer to all the possibilities. I have my clients exaggerate their breathing, exchanging lung gases as deeply as possible, because KB routines will suck the oxygen out of your bloodstream like there's no tomorrow!

[goldisheavy]

You mentioned once doing kettlebels combined with breathing practices. How does on do that? Not asking for precise instructions just a general idea.

 

If you do the standard kb exercises, such as swings, snatches, clean and jerks, you can't avoid breathing, as these are done for high reps. The kb pretty much dictates how you will breathe. If you breathe wrong, the kb will punish you, hard. If you breathe right, you are rewarded. The general kb attitude is to do everything with minimal exertion and minimal struggle (so in this way, Pavel Tsatsouline is somewhat of a deviant, as he advocates adding extra struggle and tension on top of the normal challenge that kb gives you). The non-deviant kb way is to use 0 force and no strength, if you can manage it. The kb should move itself in the ideal scenario.

Edited September 21, 2010 by goldisheavy

[markern]

It depends on the routine. Some call for holding your breath to stabilize your abdomen, some call for linking the exhalation to the motion that naturally squeezes the lungs, such as a KB swing with moderate weight, reversed with heavy weight. There's really no short answer to all the possibilities. I have my clients exaggerate their breathing, exchanging lung gases as deeply as possible, because KB routines will suck the oxygen out of your bloodstream like there's no tomorrow!

 

 

If you do the standard kb exercises, such as swings, snatches, clean and jerks, snatches, you can't avoid breathing, as these are done for high reps. The kb pretty much dictates how you will breathe. If you breathe wrong, the kb will punish you, hard. If you breathe right, you are rewarded. The general kb attitude is to do everything with minimal exertion and minimal struggle (so in this way, Pavel Tsatsouline is somewhat of a deviant, as he advocates adding extra struggle and tension on top of the normal challenge that kb gives you). The non-deviant kb way is to use 0 force and no strength, if you can manage it. The kb should move itself in the ideal scenario.

 

 

I think he mentioned doing it together with 5 point breathing, hair breathing, secret smile or stuff like that and I couldn`t really see how that would work but found it intriguing as it would be efficient to get a two in one. But maybe I just remember it wrong.

[gendao]

In Chinese books that I've read, it's been said that to harness Chi one has to give up one's addiction to Li (translated as physical strength). So, at least in the few materials I've read, there is a kind of opposition between chi and li. Personally, I don't believe there is any opposition. We create the opposition in our minds, if anything, but we don't have to create it.

Yiquan master Fong Ha related a story about how Paul Chek came by once to test how strong he was and if he knew any "ancient Chinese secrets."

 

Now, Paul Chek is a New Agey strength guru who is a very physically strong, fit & sizeable guy.

(160-lb dumbbell)

(200-lb dumbbell)

in the back of my mind, I knew that Chek was one of the best in the world in his field: corrective and high-performance exercise kinesiology. In fact, with his holistic approach, he's practically reinvented the field. I knew that, at 44 years old, Chek could outperform a lot pro-athletes in their twenties. (In his own words, he can "hammer the shit out of them in the gym." And he really can.)

 

I'm a 44 year old who can run as fast as he did in high school football. I can lift more weight than I ever have in my life. I can outperform almost every single professional athlete in the gym that I've ever conditioned – and that's a lot of them.

 

There's an old Tibetan saying, "Drink your food and chew your water."

 

It takes an average of eight hours of sleep per night for the human immune system to kill down the bacteria population to a safe level, because every single bacterium in your body is urinating and defecating in your body 24/7.

 

They produce a toxin called endotoxin LPS. If your body doesn't get enough sleep at night, you will progressively be poisoned by the bacteria in your own intestinal track.

Whereas Fong Ha is a far more diminutive senior citizen in his 70s now. I'm guessing he is somewhere between only 5'4" and 5'7" tall.

Well, so Fong asked Paul to push him. And Paul tried and tried...but could not budge him with all his might!

 

And no one in our workshop could, either. It just seemed to defy all classical physics. One time, he was even sitting back in a metal chair with his feet up off the floor - and told me to come push his forearm. But I tried and still couldn't move him!!!

 

I asked him to explain how he did this??

 

He kept saying that it was simple...and it "only" took him 10 years to figure it out...

 

Was it qi, a certain mentality, a lower CG, some biomechanical alignment? I still don't really know yet myself...

 

Anyhow, about 80% of his training is zhan zhuang. The rest other forms of meditation or qigong. There is no weightlifting or any brute strength training involved.

Edited September 21, 2010 by vortex

[Ramon25]

http://www.fullkontact.com/ this guy is is chi gung master and strong as hell. The keu really is mixing flexability/mobility with weights.

[Ramon25]

if you lift weights and do chi kung or MCO or 5pb you will not get sore as much and you will remain flexible.

 

 

I see no issue between weights and Chi development. Shaolin & Russians have been doing well with this stuff for centuries.

Im always impressed with your attitude on issues santi always a balanced perspective.

[Upfromtheashes]

If you do the standard kb exercises, such as swings, snatches, clean and jerks, you can't avoid breathing, as these are done for high reps. The kb pretty much dictates how you will breathe. If you breathe wrong, the kb will punish you, hard. If you breathe right, you are rewarded. The general kb attitude is to do everything with minimal exertion and minimal struggle (so in this way, Pavel Tsatsouline is somewhat of a deviant, as he advocates adding extra struggle and tension on top of the normal challenge that kb gives you). The non-deviant kb way is to use 0 force and no strength, if you can manage it. The kb should move itself in the ideal scenario.

 

Ok this is interesting because I have noticed using regular dumbells or pretty much any weight I can just use energy and move the weight while keeping my muscles completely soft -(posture and balance) the energy flows very well this way - it is effortless and yet by always doing this is one missing out on not applying tension to the muscle and benefits from this ? I can do hindu squats the same way with a cadence that is almost painfree and doesnt create a burn but I feel like I am not working my muscles this way - I can run just using good bio-mechanics and transfer of energy and yet by doing this could it be so efficient that the muscles dont get worked?

Could being too internal and relying too much on chi acually be a detriment?

From what I know some say not to create tension even in Tai Chi Movements - Yet there is a magic to tension in the muscle it is grounding and lets me know I am there and not a floating powder puff of disembodied energy -

[Upfromtheashes]

Ok this is interesting because I have noticed using regular dumbells or pretty much any weight I can just use energy and move the weight while keeping my muscles completely soft -(posture and balance) the energy flows very well this way - it is effortless and yet by always doing this is one missing out on not applying tension to the muscle and benefits from this ? I can do hindu squats the same way with a cadence that is almost painfree and doesnt create a burn but I feel like I am not working my muscles this way - I can run just using good bio-mechanics and transfer of energy and yet by doing this could it be so efficient that the muscles dont get worked?

Could being too internal and relying too much on chi acually be a detriment?

From what I know some say not to create tension even in Tai Chi Movements - Yet there is a magic to tension in the muscle it is grounding and lets me know I am there and not a floating powder puff of disembodied energy -

 

Other interesting issues are is having a lot of muscle simply a waste - Does it take away nourishment that could go to fortify the organs/ the brain?

[fizix]

Does it take away nourishment that could go to fortify the organs/ the brain?

Only if one is calorie deficient. Strength/weight training to any degree short of Pro BB training will only HELP your energy; more jing is produced, more chi as a result; the benefits are countless. I think a hybrid of western and eastern - physical and internal exercise to be optimal for one's best health.

[Enishi]

In regards to the master Fong Ha, I would be interested to see if he could demonstrate the same unmovable phenomena if a machine was pushing against him with roughly the same amount of force as the people in the workshop? Although a lot of it might be coordination of the fascia and tendons, my personal pet theory at the moment is that using chi/internal strength also has a subtle effect on the other person's nervous system and inhibits their ability to push out with full extension (so essentially they're tensing in place).

Edited September 22, 2010 by Enishi

[goldisheavy]

Yiquan master Fong Ha related a story about how Paul Chek came by once to test how strong he was and if he knew any "ancient Chinese secrets."

 

Now, Paul Chek is a New Agey strength guru who is a very physically strong, fit & sizeable guy.

(160-lb dumbbell)

(200-lb dumbbell)Whereas Fong Ha is a far more diminutive senior citizen in his 70s now. I'm guessing he is somewhere between only 5'4" and 5'7" tall.

Well, so Fong asked Paul to push him. And Paul tried and tried...but could not budge him with all his might!

 

And no one in our workshop could, either. It just seemed to defy all classical physics. One time, he was even sitting back in a metal chair with his feet up off the floor - and told me to come push his forearm. But I tried and still couldn't move him!!!

 

I asked him to explain how he did this??

 

He kept saying that it was simple...and it "only" took him 10 years to figure it out...

 

Was it qi, a certain mentality, a lower CG, some biomechanical alignment? I still don't really know yet myself...

 

Anyhow, about 80% of his training is zhan zhuang. The rest other forms of meditation or qigong. There is no weightlifting or any brute strength training involved.

 

I don't dismiss this kind of story at all. I believe it's possible. At the same time, has anyone asked this Chinese guy to lift a 160 lbs dumbbell? Is it specialized skill that's only good for certain things (like resisting a push)? Or is it a general purpose skill that works for many diverse applications?

 

Maybe this guy is really great at a few things and everyone else could learn a lesson or two. At the same time, it doesn't disprove other methods. In particular, you have to admit that strength training works for a lot of people, whereas someone who's benefitted from zhang zhuang to the same extent as Mr. Fong, well that's a rarity.

 

I think it's possible to embrace it all. Common strength training has a certain mentality and a certain worldview that backs it up. People don't challenge it. I think real zhang zhuang operates from a very different worldview (not a physicalistic one). Unfortunately Chinese people are shy to introduce this worldview and the Western people are all to happy and enthusiastic to slap a physicalist worldview on top of every Chinese spiritual practice.

 

Shamans of the old didn't think of the world in terms of substance. We just need to admit that. If we want to try to live the life of a shaman, we have to believe as they believed.

Edited September 22, 2010 by goldisheavy

[goldisheavy]

Ok this is interesting because I have noticed using regular dumbells or pretty much any weight I can just use energy and move the weight while keeping my muscles completely soft -(posture and balance) the energy flows very well this way - it is effortless and yet by always doing this is one missing out on not applying tension to the muscle and benefits from this ? I can do hindu squats the same way with a cadence that is almost painfree and doesnt create a burn but I feel like I am not working my muscles this way - I can run just using good bio-mechanics and transfer of energy and yet by doing this could it be so efficient that the muscles dont get worked?

Could being too internal and relying too much on chi acually be a detriment?

From what I know some say not to create tension even in Tai Chi Movements - Yet there is a magic to tension in the muscle it is grounding and lets me know I am there and not a floating powder puff of disembodied energy -

 

You're not missing anything out. You're getting a different kind of exercise when you do it this way. What you describe is the traditional way to lift the kettlebell. When it feels like the kettlebell lifts itself, that's the correct feeling. When you can do it many times, you need a heavier bell. If you can do 200 snatches with 32kg kb, then just get yourself a 56kg bell, like everyone else who has it too easy. And if you can operate a 56kg kb as if it weights nothing, good for you. If you can do it without using muscles, then good for you. Don't worry about what's right and what's wrong. Look at the result! But also try to understand what is happening so that you can explain it to someone else.

[goldisheavy]

I think he mentioned doing it together with 5 point breathing, hair breathing, secret smile or stuff like that and I couldn`t really see how that would work but found it intriguing as it would be efficient to get a two in one. But maybe I just remember it wrong.

 

If you are new to the kb, or if you're a new to the weight, for example, if you just upgraded to the 24kg kb, or if you just upgraded yourself to the 32kg kb, then you will probably not be able to combine it with anything. KB will demand your entire attention and if you screw around, you'll get punished by the kettlebell.

 

However, once you become very effortless and comfortable with a particular kb, you can do anything with it. You can clean floors, cook, do secret smile, whatever, all the while tossing the kb around like a little toy. At this point the kettlebell will not be able to distract you and it won't dominate your efforts or your attention.

[buscon]

I don't dismiss this kind of story at all. I believe it's possible. At the same time, has anyone asked this Chinese guy to lift a 160 lbs dumbbell? Is it specialized skill that's only good for certain things (like resisting a push)? Or is it a general purpose skill that works for many diverse applications?

 

Maybe this guy is really great at a few things and everyone else could learn a lesson or two. At the same time, it doesn't disprove other methods. In particular, you have to admit that strength training works for a lot of people, whereas someone who's benefitted from zhang zhuang to the same extent as Mr. Fong, well that's a rarity.

 

I think it's possible to embrace it all. Common strength training has a certain mentality and a certain worldview that backs it up. People don't challenge it. I think real zhang zhuang operates from a very different worldview (not a physicalistic one). Unfortunately Chinese people are shy to introduce this worldview and the Western people are all to happy and enthusiastic to slap a physicalist worldview on top of every Chinese spiritual practice.

 

Shamans of the old didn't think of the world in terms of substance. We just need to admit that. If we want to try to live the life of a shaman, we have to believe as they believed.

 

I like your point of view.

 

I think it's better to look for a way to integrate eastern and western understanding, and fill up what's missing. Our culture is getting more and more syncretic, melting a lot of different approaches.

 

So there are no right and wrong, it depends on you and what you're looking for.

It's quite individual: I'm understanding more and more the importance of a master!

 

Lifting weights can be even a very good corrective practice. In my case it adjusted the muscle of my back and now I'm always straight, even when I sit 8 hours in front of a computer.

My kung fu and qigong practice gained a lot from weight lifting, from many point of view, the good posture is just one.