Laozi and the magic square

[lienshan]

From the Guodian Laozi (312 BC):

 

zhi1 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 yi3 shen1 hou4 zhi1

qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 yi3 yan2 xia4 zhi1

qi2 zai4 min2 shang4 ye3 min2 fu2 hou4 ye3

qi2 zai4 min2 qian2 ye3 min2 fu2 hai2 ye3

tian1 xia4 le4 jin4 er2 fu2 yan2

yi3 qi2 bu4 zheng1 ye3 gu4 tian1 xia4

 

go-to influence people in-front yes because body behind exits

that influence people on-top yes because words below exit

that influence people on-top yes people not behind yes

that influence people in-front yes people not abused yes

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

 

The number of characters in front of the blue characters are in every line: 5

The numbers of the hidden hexagram are the opposites of the blue characters in the magic square:

 

2 earth ........ 7 joyful ...... 6 thunder

 

9 mountain .... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 wind

 

That'll say: 667787 corresponding to the (Guicang) hexagram 55 FENG line 2:

 

The curtain is of such fullness

That the polestars can be seen at noon.

Through going one meets with mistrust and hate.

If one rouses him through truth,

Good fortune comes.

 

The subject of the linetext is a sun eclipse; the polestars can be seen at noon!

The first blue characters "because body behind exits" describe too a sun eclipse!

 

Heaven under joyful advances and no hate

because they don't quarrel yes therefore Heaven below

[Marblehead]

I have no idea what to say about this one.

 

All I can do is take your word for it.

 

You do know that I do not believe in magic, Right?

 

Peace & Love!

[fizix]

To know the Tao is to know One, all other numbers are shenanigans; this is the key to the gate of heaven.

[lienshan]

To know the Tao is to know One, all other numbers are shenanigans;

I read somewhere, that Tao gave birth to One, so it's maybe a little more complicated?

I have a little correction to my magic square:

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain .... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Some commentaires to the trigram names to the left and their chinese outlook:

 

"earth" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "flowing"

"earth" has a substitute character JII meaning streams, that was carved in the stone Yi Jing.

That's why I read "earth" as meaning "mountain valley streams". Dry in summer and flowing in spring.

 

"water" consist of two components: a character meaning "clay/soil" and a character meaning "exhaling".

I read the meaning as both a pit and the content. Both the bottom and the water; all in all a river.

 

The left side of my magic square does thus correspond to the subject of Dao De Jing chapter 66

[Marblehead]

 

The left side of my magic square does thus correspond to the subject of Dao De Jing chapter 66

 

Well, I will agree that nature is being used as an example of how the Sage/King should conduct themself.

 

Peace & Love!

[Aetherous]

This is very interesting, but I'm having a hard time understanding how the magic square correlates with the verse?

[Stigweard]

Heya Lienshan,

 

I think it's great that you want to plumb the depths of Laozi and really get all the juices. But I really think you might be over-complicating things a little.

 

Also you might want to revise your magic square / I Ching associations.

 

The magic square originates with the Lo Shu or Lo Shih. Here is the traditional format:

 

 

When it is associated with the Later Heaven I Ching Bagua it looks like this:

 

 

This would mean:

 

1 = Water

2 = Earth

3 = Mountain

4 = Lake

5 = 0

6 = Heaven

7 = Wind

8 = Thunder

9 = Fire

 

Note that 5 = 0 because it represents the indescribable whole, the unifying force. If you were to associate a phase to 5 it would be Earth because Earth is the harmonizing and stabilizing force.

 

A question for you Lienshan -- are your theories coming from traditional sources or are they your own investigations?

 

Regardless though, I will always applaud someone who is willing to sift through the surface to find the hidden gold.

 

[lienshan]

1 = Water

2 = Earth

3 = Mountain

4 = Lake

5 = 0

6 = Heaven

7 = Wind

8 = Thunder

9 = Fire

 

are your theories coming from traditional sources or are they your own investigations?

The earliest evidence of the Lo Shu diagram is about 900 AD according to modern chinese studies.

There are no earlier textual or archaeological founds confirming the antiquety of the Lo Shu diagram.

My source is thus these two quotes from Shuo Gua (the 8th Wing):

 

"To heaven they assigned the number three, to earth the number two, and form these they computed the numbers."

"therefore too backwards mowing numbers."

 

The above quotes result by logic in the following trigram-counting rules:

The bottom line counts either 4, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line

The middle line counts either 2, if different to the top line, or 0 if equal to the top line

The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 3 (heaven/uneven)

 

::: 200=2 III 300=3 :I: 220=4 I:I 320=5 ::I 204=6 II: 304=7 :II 224=8 I:: 324=9

 

Counting reversed with an uneven number first change the counting rules into:

The bottom line counts either 4, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line

The middle line counts either 2, if equal to the top line, or 0 if different to the top line

The top line is either 2 (earth/even) or 1 (heaven/uneven)

 

::: 422=8 III 421=7 :I: 204=6 I:I 104=5 ::I 220=4 II: 120=3 :II 200=2 I:: 100=1

 

The first oracle was named Lian Shan (Mountains standing together) and that explains the two mountains:

 

2 earth ........ 7 wind ........ 6 thunder

 

9 mountain ... 5 fire ......... 1 mountain

 

4 water ....... 3 heaven ..... 8 marsh

 

Some commentaries to the trigram names in the middle column:

 

"wind" consists of a man standing on something; a stand, a table, or? I do not yet understand the meaning.

There are several characters with the man besides something or under something, all indicating an action.

 

"fire" consist of two characters, a net and a bird. I read it as meaning gravity. That which seperates (fly)

and that which connects (catch). Corresponding to the trigram nickname: The Clinging.

 

"heaven" consists of three characters, in the middle a sun, above a hanging plant and below a character,

that means "not breathing". I read all three as meaning "drought". The soil dryes and becomes solid; firm.

 

 

That'll say not like fifix's "this is the key to the gate of heaven"

Edited September 24, 2010 by lienshan

[lienshan]

[Aetherous]

I'm not just trying to be annoying, but it still really doesn't make sense to me.

[TheTaoBum]

Nice post Lienshan & stigweard,

 

Most people here have no knowledge or depth to explain the purpose of this square or the practical usage.

 

Perhaps one of the Moderators could explain ?

Edited September 24, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[TheTaoBum]

Nice post Lienshan & stigweard,

 

I have included a photo of the Indo/Arabic square used in Javanese & Islamic alchemy/occultism, said to contain many different formulas and cure for all.

Edited September 24, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[Taomeow]

Nice post Lienshan & stigweard,

 

Most people here have no knowledge or depth to explain the purpose of this square or the practical usage.

 

Perhaps one of the Moderators could explain ?

 

What would you like explained?

 

The luoshu is inexhaustible, you can't ask a moderator (even one who has studied the luoshu for Xuan Kong feng shui applications ) to explain the whole universe with its past-present-future, its being and nonbeing, its manifestations and its unmanifest, its emptiness and fullness, its opening and closing, in a TTB post.

 

The magic square derived from the Luoshu is the key to the pattern of movement of qi in the universe. The numbers are not merely figures -- they are the actual dynamics of qi in space-time. It is hard for a Westerner to think of a number as a reality rather than an abstraction, we are taught to count the number of "something," something other than the number itself... but here we're dealing with pure numbers, not of "something" but of themselves as forces that shape Houtian, the world of manifestations. Likewise, the numbers of Hetu are forces that shape Xiantian, the unmanifest world -- tao-in-stillness. Thus tao becomes closer to the human mind's home and transpires as the co-creation of certain interactions between these forces -- that of perfect balance, in the case of Xiantian, and that of cyclical motion in the case of Houtian. So these numbers, so mundane in our everyday understanding, combine to form tao itself, or rather, are tao's inherent property and main Virtue. The reference source is Ta Chuan; I'm not aware of anything better, or even a useful substitute.

 

Trigrams of the bagua are used to express some knowledge about these numbers' properties. To understand them, you consider the lines that form them and their interrelation. E.g., if you have one yang line between two yin lines, your trigram is "yang within yin." A name that will be used to designate it for easy recognition -- that of a natural phenomenon that also manifests as "yang within yin" -- is merely a clue to the nature of the trigram's (and its number's) energies, not the "substance" itself. So "mountain" is not mountain and "lake" is not lake, though they both (and the rest of them) partake of the energies that shaped them thus.

 

Anyway... don't let me get carried away on one of my pet mounts, I've stuff to do.

[TheTaoBum]

Thanks very much cow tao, You must be one of the very few people who has knowledge on this subject.

 

So can the square be used as a guide or oracle to solve ones problems in life (like magic), Or does this numbers only relates to the universe etc ?

 

Thanks.

Edited September 24, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[Taomeow]

Thanks very much cow tao,

 

Since CowTao wasn't part of this discussion, I will assume you mean Taomeow, and you're very welcome.

 

So can the square be used as a guide or oracle to solve ones problems in life (like magic), Or does this numbers only relates to the universe etc ?

 

Thanks.

 

It is used very extensively in taoist arts and sciences. In the taoist "as above so below" cosmology, the universe is seen as a fractal, a hologram, a ganying (resonance) phenomenon, so everything that relates to the universe has its human counterpart. So, I would be hard pressed to tell you where it is NOT used in empirical taoist endeavors... either directly or indirectly. It is used in TCM, form-compass feng shui, martial arts, taoist painting, music, poetry, architecture, timekeeping, divination, invention, and of course internal alchemy and taoist magic. I am familiar with some of the applications but not all of them of course... like I said, it's inexhaustible.

[Birch]

The numbers are not merely figures -- they are the actual dynamics of qi in space-time. It is hard for a Westerner to think of a number as a reality rather than an abstraction, we are taught to count the number of "something," something other than the number itself... but here we're dealing with pure numbers, not of "something" but of themselves as forces that shape Houtian.

 

Ah, and here I was happy in the void. Gah.

 

What do you mean non-abstract numbers? The irony is not lost on this westerner...

[Taomeow]

Ah, and here I was happy in the void. Gah.

 

I know! People who crave simplicity (and who doesn't, in our overcomplicated age?) should stay away from taoism, which is a simplicity-complexity paradox... Existence can, and probably should, be very, very simple, but it blatantly isn't for a "civilized" human. Hence taoism, a method and a map to use in order to return to simplicity --

not by condemning complexity or going into denial about its blatant existence (e.g. calling it an illusion... duh... as though it has ever helped anyone who ever stubbed a toe -- let alone a life...)

-- but by mastering it, getting on top of it... If you are competent, things you are competent in are simple. So taoism is an attempt to get competent in what matters -- time, space, destiny -- in little increments of practice, study, cultivation... Every one single taoist step is really, really simple. If one doesn't skip steps, one might not even notice the complexity that had arisen ten thousand li down the road, because each step was just one step... simple and easy. The void is our oyster!

 

What do you mean non-abstract numbers? The irony is not lost on this westerner...

 

Well, OK, tao gives birth to one, as the classic put it. "One of what?" you would ask in any other situation, e.g. if I told you "I have one" without specifying any further, you would invariably ask, "you have one what?" If I said, "I gave one," you would ask, "One what?" And so on... Millions, perhaps billions of eyes have skipped over this line without noticing that "one" is the actual object of birth, and you don't ask "one what" anymore than you would if you were told "tao gives birth to a child" or "Mary gives birth to Jesus" or "Socks gives birth to a litter of kittens." You don't ask "a child of what," "Jesus of what," "a litter of kittens of what?" A child is a child, Jesus is Jesus, a litter of kittens is a litter of kittens -- they are not abstractions (except I'm not sure about Jesus, but the grammar of "Mary gives birth to Jesus" presupposes he is a real human being, maybe the son of god or maybe just a random kid named Jesus somewhere in Colombia where the name is popular...)

 

So, tao gives birth to one is a statement of exactly the same nature. One is real. It is not an abstract way to count one of something; it is the concrete One, tao's child. One, having so far been empirically instructed by his mom only in one thing -- how one gives birth to One -- does the same thing and that's how One gives birth to Two, by replicating itself. That's how ------ becomes ---- ---- and that's why one, the odd number, is yang, the solid line, and two, the even number, is yin, the broken line. The broken line is not so much broken as open -- out of the self-replicating Ones, Two arises, united onto itself, into a Two, by an empty opening into new possibilities....

 

...are you with me so far?..

[Stigweard]

I know! People who crave simplicity (and who doesn't, in our overcomplicated age?) should stay away from taoism, which is a simplicity-complexity paradox... Existence can, and probably should, be very, very simple, but it blatantly isn't for a "civilized" human. Hence taoism, a method and a map to use in order to return to simplicity --

not by condemning complexity or going into denial about its blatant existence (e.g. calling it an illusion... duh... as though it has ever helped anyone who ever stubbed a toe -- let alone a life...)

-- but by mastering it, getting on top of it... If you are competent, things you are competent in are simple. So taoism is an attempt to get competent in what matters -- time, space, destiny -- in little increments of practice, study, cultivation... Every one single taoist step is really, really simple. If one doesn't skip steps, one might not even notice the complexity that had arisen ten thousand li down the road, because each step was just one step... simple and easy. The void is our oyster!

 

 

 

Well, OK, tao gives birth to one, as the classic put it. "One of what?" you would ask in any other situation, e.g. if I told you "I have one" without specifying any further, you would invariably ask, "you have one what?" If I said, "I gave one," you would ask, "One what?" And so on... Millions, perhaps billions of eyes have skipped over this line without noticing that "one" is the actual object of birth, and you don't ask "one what" anymore than you would if you were told "tao gives birth to a child" or "Mary gives birth to Jesus" or "Socks gives birth to a litter of kittens." You don't ask "a child of what," "Jesus of what," "a litter of kittens of what?" A child is a child, Jesus is Jesus, a litter of kittens is a litter of kittens -- they are not abstractions (except I'm not sure about Jesus, but the grammar of "Mary gives birth to Jesus" presupposes he is a real human being, maybe the son of god or maybe just a random kid named Jesus somewhere in Colombia where the name is popular...)

 

So, tao gives birth to one is a statement of exactly the same nature. One is real. It is not an abstract way to count one of something; it is the concrete One, tao's child. One, having so far been empirically instructed by his mom only in one thing -- how one gives birth to One -- does the same thing and that's how One gives birth to Two, by replicating itself. That's how ------ becomes ---- ---- and that's why one, the odd number, is yang, the solid line, and two, the even number, is yin, the broken line. The broken line is not so much broken as open -- out of the self-replicating Ones, Two arises, united onto itself, into a Two, by an empty opening into new possibilities....

 

...are you with me so far?..

Hahaha!!! She is starting to get worked up folks ... QUICK! Ask more questions!!!

 

Here's one for you ... why is Water the first element in the Loshu?

[lienshan]

I'm not just trying to be annoying, but it still really doesn't make sense to me.

I try put the subject of this tread into other words:

 

The Qin diviner Lao Dan (worked in the years 384-362 BC) added some ten verses to Dao De Jing. These verses are all anti-"mandate of heaven"! The philosophy of Dao De Jing is, that everything is natural, so to get rid of the unnatural "son of heaven" was the headline of Lao Dan's policy. Such a policy was ofcourse lese-majesty and the penality was execution. That's why his verses are "coded": The number of characters in each sentence correspond to a hexagram line; a hexagram line was expressed by numbers before 256 BC.

 

The Received Dao De Jing is an edition, so the number of characters in each sentence is not original. The Guodian version was buried 312 BC and the number of characters in each line seems to be original? The chinese (read communist) scholars have not been able to explain the seven ye3 (yes) characters of this chapter 66 ... they are neither diviners nor daoists, so they simply do not know how to read the chapter 66 text.

 

The Zhou point of view was, that the earth was flat and a new sun occurred every morning, like a new "son of heaven" was born, every time the former "son of heaven" died. So proving, that the earth is round and that it's the same sun occurring every morning, was the ultimate arguement against the "mandate of heaven" nonsense.

 

The moon is in front and the sun behind during a sun eclipse ... that's how I read the Guodian verse 66 ... but in order to read the text this way, then I have to "decode" the number of characters in the six lines into the hexagram 55 FENG, which is about a sun eclipse. And using the magic square result in 55 FENG ... so if I read the text "correct" ... then Lao Dan and his readers knew the magic square 384-362 BC

[Marblehead]

...are you with me so far?..

 

Very nice presentation. I am enjoying it. Please don't stop now.

 

Peace & Love!

[Apech]

Very nice presentation. I am enjoying it. Please don't stop now.

 

Peace & Love!

 

Yes keep going.

[Stigweard]

I try put the subject of this tread into other words:

 

The Qin diviner Lao Dan (worked in the years 384-362 BC) added some ten verses to Dao De Jing. These verses are all anti-"mandate of heaven"! The philosophy of Dao De Jing is, that everything is natural, so to get rid of the unnatural "son of heaven" was the headline of Lao Dan's policy. Such a policy was ofcourse lese-majesty and the penality was execution. That's why his verses are "coded": The number of characters in each sentence correspond to a hexagram line; a hexagram line was expressed by numbers before 256 BC.

 

The Received Dao De Jing is an edition, so the number of characters in each sentence is not original. The Guodian version was buried 312 BC and the number of characters in each line seems to be original? The chinese (read communist) scholars have not been able to explain the seven ye3 (yes) characters of this chapter 66 ... they are neither diviners nor daoists, so they simply do not know how to read the chapter 66 text.

 

The Zhou point of view was, that the earth was flat and a new sun occurred every morning, like a new "son of heaven" was born, every time the former "son of heaven" died. So proving, that the earth is round and that it's the same sun occurring every morning, was the ultimate arguement against the "mandate of heaven" nonsense.

 

The moon is in front and the sun behind during a sun eclipse ... that's how I read the Guodian verse 66 ... but in order to read the text this way, then I have to "decode" the number of characters in the six lines into the hexagram 55 FENG, which is about a sun eclipse. And using the magic square result in 55 FENG ... so if I read the text "correct" ... then Lao Dan and his readers knew the magic square 384-362 BC

OK let's just assume for the moment that you are right. How does this theory of yours enhance either your practice or your spiritual attainment?

[3bob]

The One is "real" enough until it to disappears.

 

Or there is a saying that goes something like: "when the many have been reduced to the one, to what shall the one be reduced?

 

Om

[Birch]

I know! People who crave simplicity (and who doesn't, in our overcomplicated age?) should stay away from taoism, which is a simplicity-complexity paradox... Existence can, and probably should, be very, very simple, but it blatantly isn't for a "civilized" human. Hence taoism, a method and a map to use in order to return to simplicity --

not by condemning complexity or going into denial about its blatant existence (e.g. calling it an illusion... duh... as though it has ever helped anyone who ever stubbed a toe -- let alone a life...)

-- but by mastering it, getting on top of it... If you are competent, things you are competent in are simple. So taoism is an attempt to get competent in what matters -- time, space, destiny -- in little increments of practice, study, cultivation... Every one single taoist step is really, really simple. If one doesn't skip steps, one might not even notice the complexity that had arisen ten thousand li down the road, because each step was just one step... simple and easy. The void is our oyster!

 

 

 

Well, OK, tao gives birth to one, as the classic put it. "One of what?" you would ask in any other situation, e.g. if I told you "I have one" without specifying any further, you would invariably ask, "you have one what?" If I said, "I gave one," you would ask, "One what?" And so on... Millions, perhaps billions of eyes have skipped over this line without noticing that "one" is the actual object of birth, and you don't ask "one what" anymore than you would if you were told "tao gives birth to a child" or "Mary gives birth to Jesus" or "Socks gives birth to a litter of kittens." You don't ask "a child of what," "Jesus of what," "a litter of kittens of what?" A child is a child, Jesus is Jesus, a litter of kittens is a litter of kittens -- they are not abstractions (except I'm not sure about Jesus, but the grammar of "Mary gives birth to Jesus" presupposes he is a real human being, maybe the son of god or maybe just a random kid named Jesus somewhere in Colombia where the name is popular...)

 

So, tao gives birth to one is a statement of exactly the same nature. One is real. It is not an abstract way to count one of something; it is the concrete One, tao's child. One, having so far been empirically instructed by his mom only in one thing -- how one gives birth to One -- does the same thing and that's how One gives birth to Two, by replicating itself. That's how ------ becomes ---- ---- and that's why one, the odd number, is yang, the solid line, and two, the even number, is yin, the broken line. The broken line is not so much broken as open -- out of the self-replicating Ones, Two arises, united onto itself, into a Two, by an empty opening into new possibilities....

 

...are you with me so far?..

 

 

Wow! Excellent.

 

Please do go on. So if I've understood something, the two is actually where things start getting counted? Because know they can see each other.

[3bob]

And how shall he or anyone else go on and return? Write a thousand volumes, give speechs, become a famous Master, gain a great name and following, even become an immortal?

 

...such are names, thus to really go on is to dissolve names and everything a name encompasses; and who of us is daring and faithful enough and really ready to choose and also be chosen for that?

 

I don't claim to be such, but such sometimes reveal without the use of names.

 

Om

Edited September 25, 2010 by 3bob