Recovering yuan qi

[genmaicha]

As with most things there seem to be different opinions on how long it will take to recover one's yuan qi.

On the Longmenpai Blog it says the following:

"With that in mind, let examine how much time you need to complete the foundation (before you can do any actual inner alchemy). Foundational (ZhuJi) practice in longmen pai can be roughly understood as to replenish all the yuan qi that one has lost. The peak level of yuan qi that a human being can have happens when they are 16 years old (for men) or 14 years old (for women). So one can say that the foundation is built properly when the level of yuan qi in your body has returned to when you were 16 (or 14) years old. Now according to the Ling Bao Bi Fa classic text, one year (360 days) daily practice (6 hours per day) of Yin Xian Fa can replenish 10 years of lost yuan qi, and the 6 hours mentioned by the old masters refers to the practice being done in full lotus (of course!). "

http://longmenpai.blogspot.com/

 

So, in this example (depending on the age of the practitioner) one year of six hours per day in full lotus practicing Yin Xian Fa.

 

In Bagua a different number of days is quoted.

"Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle."

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

 

Do you know of any other approaches and what happens once yuanqi is recovered?

[NeiChuan]

As with most things there seem to be different opinions on how long it will take to recover one's yuan qi.

On the Longmenpai Blog it says the following:

"With that in mind, let examine how much time you need to complete the foundation (before you can do any actual inner alchemy). Foundational (ZhuJi) practice in longmen pai can be roughly understood as to replenish all the yuan qi that one has lost. The peak level of yuan qi that a human being can have happens when they are 16 years old (for men) or 14 years old (for women). So one can say that the foundation is built properly when the level of yuan qi in your body has returned to when you were 16 (or 14) years old. Now according to the Ling Bao Bi Fa classic text, one year (360 days) daily practice (6 hours per day) of Yin Xian Fa can replenish 10 years of lost yuan qi, and the 6 hours mentioned by the old masters refers to the practice being done in full lotus (of course!). "

http://longmenpai.blogspot.com/

 

So, in this example (depending on the age of the practitioner) one year of six hours per day in full lotus practicing Yin Xian Fa.

 

In Bagua a different number of days is quoted.

"Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle."

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

 

Do you know of any other approaches and what happens once yuanqi is recovered?

 

I"ve heard and experienced moxa being using on the lower dan tien. Theres specific instructions though.

 

After the second time burning moxa, I felt my feet become warm. In normal tempature there never freezing anymore.

[al.]

As with most things there seem to be different opinions on how long it will take to recover one's yuan qi.

On the Longmenpai Blog it says the following:

"With that in mind, let examine how much time you need to complete the foundation (before you can do any actual inner alchemy). Foundational (ZhuJi) practice in longmen pai can be roughly understood as to replenish all the yuan qi that one has lost. The peak level of yuan qi that a human being can have happens when they are 16 years old (for men) or 14 years old (for women). So one can say that the foundation is built properly when the level of yuan qi in your body has returned to when you were 16 (or 14) years old. Now according to the Ling Bao Bi Fa classic text, one year (360 days) daily practice (6 hours per day) of Yin Xian Fa can replenish 10 years of lost yuan qi, and the 6 hours mentioned by the old masters refers to the practice being done in full lotus (of course!). "

http://longmenpai.blogspot.com/

 

So, in this example (depending on the age of the practitioner) one year of six hours per day in full lotus practicing Yin Xian Fa.

 

In Bagua a different number of days is quoted.

"Your body requires one week to recover after one sexual intercourse. i.e. come back to the condition before the intercourse. One hundred days is required to recover Original Qi (Yuan Qi) completely (i.e. recover to the condition before one had any sex). About three years is required to open Small Heavenly Circle."

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/bagua/machuanxu.html

 

Do you know of any other approaches and what happens once yuanqi is recovered?

 

From the modern TCM perspective, yuan qi is "pre-heavenly qi" and as such cannot be replaced once it is gone. It could be thought of as the genetic life stamina you inherit from your parents and Source.

Whether it can even be replenished is debatable; I would assume it's very much down to what kind of relationship you share with Source, with "pre-heaven".

The time period of 100 hundred days to start anew is found in quite a few different traditions. Gurdjeff used this time period for a specific practice. Also the exercises known as "Kai Men".

a

[Aetherous]

It seems to me that brain/marrow practices help the most with this.

[hagar]

ed

Edited October 6, 2010 by hagar

[宁]

Thanks Hagar, kinda makes sense.

 

What about external resources?

Could Yuan Qi / Primordial Qi be 'accessed' from outside, and in-taken?

[Taomeow]

The teacher I have teach Nei Dan, and during one retreat he used the hexagram-analogy to describe the alchemical process in this way:

 

all yin lines equals death

One yang line relates to some serious disease or old age, i.e little yang energy is left (pre natal yang)

After good practice for several years one might attain yang energy equivalent to five out of six hexagram lines, yet if you did not start practicing before you got to puberty and started losing Jing, the last pure yang state is next to impossible to attain.

 

I think we underestimate the degree of dedication, subtlety and effort that is needed to reach such a level, especially today.

 

One thing is to sit in a physical position for some hours, another thing is to have right intent, being able to tune in and stay tuned in to the energy, and continue through discomfort for long periods.

 

h

 

Well, all yin lines don't equal death in the I Ching -- the hexagram they form is "The Receptive, Earth." Pretty much equals "life." A very auspicious hexagram all around.

 

By the same token, all yang lines don't equal "life" in the I Ching -- the hexagram they form is "The Creative, Heaven." Lots of references to fighting dragons therein, to spilled blood, and the final outcome of this pure yang situation is "an arrogant dragon will have reasons for regrets." A warning against getting too yang-skewed all around.

 

Yuan qi is yin, incidentally, compared to postnatal qi and shen. The situation of a fetus in the womb is a yin situation, not a yang situation. The practice you are describing sounds good -- a yin practice aimed to replicate the situation of the fetus in the womb. All practices geared toward restoring yuan qi are like that.

[markern]

 

 

Yuan qi is yin, incidentally, compared to postnatal qi and shen. The situation of a fetus in the womb is a yin situation, not a yang situation. The practice you are describing sounds good -- a yin practice aimed to replicate the situation of the fetus in the womb. All practices geared toward restoring yuan qi are like that.

 

Very interesting, and kind of amusing.

[Taomeow]

Very interesting, and kind of amusing.

 

 

I forgot to mention that the Eranos I Ching, the crowning jewel of all translations (even for a native Chinese speaker, since it gives all historic meanings of all words used in the original, something a native speaker won't otherwise know), which was co-authored by a theoretical physicist, translates all-yin-lines as "space" and all-yang-lines as "energy."

[exorcist_1699]

Thanks Hagar, kinda makes sense.

 

What about external resources?

Could Yuan Qi / Primordial Qi be 'accessed' from outside, and in-taken?

 

Yuan ("Meta")Qi or " Pre-heavenly" Qi , as the foundation of our life, comes from outside into a female 's body only after an intercourse of yin and yang (female and male ) under certain circumstance and the amount of it is quite constant. Together with what we eat , drink and behave after birth , Yuan Qi determines how long we live. Yet because the amount of this primordial Yuan Qi is already fixed , no matter how careful we live ,how well the food we eat, seldom can we live longer than the age of 120 .

 

However, if we want to live longer than 120 years , or over 500 years ,even forever, what can we do? The key is to do that intercourse of yin and yang on ourselves again so that outside Yuan Qi can be absorbed into our body and nourish it , sustain it .But how ?

 

Taoist alchemy finds that there are two ways:

 

1) By the way of Dual Cultivation : It says that as men get the yang qi , and women get the yin qi, so neither sex is perfect; Because of this, a man in cultivation has to find a female partner so that the said yin and yang intercourse can be done ,yet this time in a " pre-heavenly " way ; Because if it is done as an ordinary sex intercourse, then what they get is still a fetus in female's body at the expense of both of them ( losing their jing and qi).

 

2) By the way of Taoist Single cultivation: It says that both yin and yang are ready in our body despite our sex .Jing and qi , as the energetic/material (yin ) aspect, is always located in the bottom of our body , while spirit/shen (yang) on the top of us . Such a split of yin of yang , and their further distant from each other day after day ,is the main cause leading us to death : In daytime we spend a lot of spiritual strength in pursuing material wealth and sensational satisfaction, in night , we lose our jing in sex intercourse /nocturnal release.

 

To counter such a process, we must enable our shen and qi to have an intercourse again so that Yuan Qi can come into us .Of course, whether our life can be sustained and lengthened is really dependent on how well we do in this process.

Edited October 1, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[宁]

Yuan ("Meta")Qi or " Pre-heavenly" Qi

 

Thanks!!

I am at loss with the expression 'done in a pre-heavenly way', though.

Could you at least hint something about it?

[Franklin]

Well, all yin lines don't equal death in the I Ching -- the hexagram they form is "The Receptive, Earth." Pretty much equals "life." A very auspicious hexagram all around.

 

By the same token, all yang lines don't equal "life" in the I Ching -- the hexagram they form is "The Creative, Heaven." Lots of references to fighting dragons therein, to spilled blood, and the final outcome of this pure yang situation is "an arrogant dragon will have reasons for regrets." A warning against getting too yang-skewed all around.

 

Yuan qi is yin, incidentally, compared to postnatal qi and shen. The situation of a fetus in the womb is a yin situation, not a yang situation. The practice you are describing sounds good -- a yin practice aimed to replicate the situation of the fetus in the womb. All practices geared toward restoring yuan qi are like that.

 

 

I don't think he was referring to that as a way to interpret the I-Jing in a general sense

but instead as a way to see the lines of the hexagrams as a way to symbolize the alchemical process

 

and there are lots of different interpretation of the I-Jing in that regard...

 

 

i have also had cultivation teachers refer to the process as having the goal of being pure yang

not that there is anything bad or wrong with yin

but in this metaphor the yin is the form that decays and will go back to the earth

while the yang is the energy and light that can be cultivated and refined

and can continue without the yin

 

 

 

franklin

[Taomeow]

Thanks!!

I am at loss with the expression 'done in a pre-heavenly way', though.

Could you at least hint something about it?

 

Well, while we're waiting for Exorcist's explanation, here's a little bit from my own sources:

 

the woman moves, the man doesn't.

[hagar]

Well, while we're waiting for Exorcist's explanation, here's a little bit from my own sources:

 

the woman moves, the man doesn't.

 

I see what you mean regarding the interpretation of the I Ching. In that context the yin hexagram is an auspicious one.

The information I refer is taken from what my teacher has been taught by his teachers in China. Not my own interpretation.

 

The hexagram analogies used in Nei Dan has nothing to do with gender, and are meant only as a conceptual tool to understand the subtle transformation process. In this context the primal state, which is also present potentially in all humans, is one of pure yang. If thi actually correlates to the concept of Yuan Qi is beyond me. What I do know is that most of the time our Shen is dispersed, and this is the basic source of physical and energetic degeneration leading to illness and "yin" state, indicating death. Thus a pure Yin in this conctext is the absence of any true Yang energy. If someone is really ill, and gets a healing, and makes a miraculous recovery, there is probably a turnaround of one of the yang energy "lines". Even with only one Yang "line" present, you can recover dramatically from nearing death to life. Only through consistent practice and dedication will you be able to approach the totally Yang state.

 

h

[exorcist_1699]

Thanks!!

I am at loss with the expression 'done in a pre-heavenly way', though.

Could you at least hint something about it?

 

I know very little about Taoist Dual cultivation, and I do not get the conditions to test it here, however, it is said to be a purely intercourse between yin and yang qi, without clothes being taken off, even the two persons practicing it not necessarily be in the same room , so Taomeow's description seems doubtful to me .

 

Of course , to the male participant in the cultivation , he must already have succeeded in achieving certain stage of Awakening , otherwise , definitely he will lose rather than gain in the process.

 

By the way, Yuan Qi /Pre-heavenly qi , before its embodiment in human body, its split into yin and yang, should be an

unity of Shen and Qi ( How about jing ? people may ask . I have to say, it is only after its embodiment in living organisms, do we find the jing, talk about jing ), beyond the limitation of yin and yang. Because whenever the split of ying and yang starts, the vector of time towards death starts, no matter what living thing it is...

 

Women can also be said to have" jing" as men do, only her forms of expressions more complicated : sometimes in the form of blood , sometimes in the form of milk...

[Taomeow]

OK, thanks for a chance to put some meat on the bare bones of "concepts" and "beliefs," Hagar.

 

The information I refer is taken from what my teacher has been taught by his teachers in China. Not my own interpretation.

 

Understood -- in which case it is your teacher I disagree with, not you.

 

All my teachers, with the exception of one who was from Siberia and one who was American but had teachers from China, are Chinese and were taught in China and, some of them, have always lived in China and still do. I'm mentioning this just in case... so as to take the China syndrome out of the equation.

 

The hexagram analogies used in Nei Dan has nothing to do with gender, and are meant only as a conceptual tool to understand the subtle transformation process. In this context the primal state, which is also present potentially in all humans, is one of pure yang.

 

OK, this is where I disagree. The hexagram analogies used anywhere are derived from the I Ching, the I Ching views yang as the male principle and yin as the female principle, and the only situation where one would say they have nothing to do with gender is a situation where one wants to hide the fact that the ideology that is yang-centered is male-centered and present it as neutral. But the man has a solid line and the woman has an open line. We embody the lines of the hexagrams. We are microcosms. We have yin and yang lines embedded in our anatomy and physiology.

 

"The primal state is pure yang" is something I disagree with completely and utterly. This line of thinking was introduced into some schools of taoism, the ones heavily influenced by buddhism, but not others. There is absolutely nothing in the taoist-proper sources (the Taoist Canon) to indicate that the primal state is pure yang. It is quite explicitly not the case if you examine and compare the Hetu and Luoshu diagrams, the Xian Tian bagua, even give a read to Laozi for that matter... All "pure yang" dissipates as pure borrowings if you look at the taoist originals.

 

If thi actually correlates to the concept of Yuan Qi is beyond me. What I do know is that most of the time our Shen is dispersed, and this is the basic source of physical and energetic degeneration leading to illness and "yin" state, indicating death.

 

That's the thing. Shen is yang compared to jing (aka yuan qi) -- compare thoughts and ideas to DNA and sexual fluids, compare your neocortical memory of the previous sentence to your systemic memory of your species' evolution... that's your shen vs. jing. Shen is on the surface; jing runs deep. Shen is what jing transforms into when you merely let it take its course... jing to shen is the way of dissipation and dispersion, is DNA to Dr. Shen, Ph.D.. to the grave.

 

So it's not a yin state that indicates death. It's a state of running out of yin. The way you run out of yin is via transformation of yin into yang (tao's business as usual), jing into shen. Death would have been a yin state if we only believed in the physical body as the beginning and end of life. Then indeed a dead body would be as yin an outcome as it gets. But the body is not the whole story. The spirit, Shen! -- that flies up and away, no? That persists and perseveres after death, or else what are we talking about, right?

 

So what state are we in when shen leaves the body?.. Well, a dead state, aka pure yang.

 

Death is what happens when you turn all your yin into yang.

 

Thus a pure Yin in this conctext is the absence of any true Yang energy.

 

If we identify "me" with "my dead body," yes. If we don't, no.

 

If someone is really ill, and gets a healing, and makes a miraculous recovery, there is probably a turnaround of one of the yang energy "lines". Even with only one Yang "line" present, you can recover dramatically from nearing death to life. Only through consistent practice and dedication will you be able to approach the totally Yang state.

 

h

 

That's the thing... all yin lines do not indicate either illness or death -- they indicate an abundance of yin, yin that does not act in the outside world, yin that does not act not because someone filled with it to capacity is dead but because she is a fetus in the womb. All hidden, all Xian Tian, all full of ever-growing potential, all yin. Carried by a woman (has something to do with the female gender... traditionally yin-associated, no?). An introduction of a yang line into this situation displaces one yin line. When they all get displaced, blood will be spilled which, according to the I Ching's all-yang hexagram, is "red and yellow." These colors are symbolic of life in the taoist tradition -- well, red is obvious, blood proper, and yellow ("gold") is the color of the Gold Elixir of Immortality, of the Yellow Sprouts Field (aka lower dantien), of the Yellow Court (the site of taoist alchemical endeavors) -- in other words, the symbol of yuan (gold) qi. So in the taoist proper tradition, all yang signifies losing blood and yuan qi... losing life.

 

Whew... thanks for being with me this far.

[宁]

I know very little about Taoist Dual cultivation, and I do not get the conditions to test it here, however, it is said to be a purely intercourse between yin and yang qi, without clothes being taken off, even the two persons practicing it not necessarily be in the same room

 

Interesting and consistent with my own experience. Never knew about the Yuan Qi part though. Maybe it's because it's hard to identify?? What would be the characteristics of Yuan Qi? How would one 'feel' it?

[gendao]

I see what you mean regarding the interpretation of the I Ching. In that context the yin hexagram is an auspicious one.

The information I refer is taken from what my teacher has been taught by his teachers in China. Not my own interpretation.

 

The hexagram analogies used in Nei Dan has nothing to do with gender, and are meant only as a conceptual tool to understand the subtle transformation process. In this context the primal state, which is also present potentially in all humans, is one of pure yang. If thi actually correlates to the concept of Yuan Qi is beyond me. What I do know is that most of the time our Shen is dispersed, and this is the basic source of physical and energetic degeneration leading to illness and "yin" state, indicating death. Thus a pure Yin in this conctext is the absence of any true Yang energy. If someone is really ill, and gets a healing, and makes a miraculous recovery, there is probably a turnaround of one of the yang energy "lines". Even with only one Yang "line" present, you can recover dramatically from nearing death to life. Only through consistent practice and dedication will you be able to approach the totally Yang state.

This is what I've heard in most actual pragmatic practice too.

 

A (female) qigong doctor even says that yang qi is what's used to expel all the "yin" toxins.

The goal of neidan is to become pure yang. This is for both male & female adepts.

 

I think both men & women cultivate yang qi for healing, health & neidan.

 

So what is yin qi used for? I believe IMA may use it for rooting. And MoPai appears to use it as a "carrier" for yang qi (which otherwise cannot extend beyond the body on its own).

 

As you say, gender is just one context for yin & yang qi. But in other respects, associating gender with them is far less relevant or meaningful.

 

Anyhow, my understanding of this is still all vague and non-theoretical. But, at the functional level it does basically correspond with yours.

Edited October 2, 2010 by vortex

[hagar]

OK, thanks for a chance to put some meat on the bare bones of "concepts" and "beliefs," Hagar.

 

 

 

Understood -- in which case it is your teacher I disagree with, not you.

 

All my teachers, with the exception of one who was from Siberia and one who was American but had teachers from China, are Chinese and were taught in China and, some of them, have always lived in China and still do. I'm mentioning this just in case... so as to take the China syndrome out of the equation.

 

 

 

OK, this is where I disagree. The hexagram analogies used anywhere are derived from the I Ching, the I Ching views yang as the male principle and yin as the female principle, and the only situation where one would say they have nothing to do with gender is a situation where one wants to hide the fact that the ideology that is yang-centered is male-centered and present it as neutral. But the man has a solid line and the woman has an open line. We embody the lines of the hexagrams. We are microcosms. We have yin and yang lines embedded in our anatomy and physiology.

 

"The primal state is pure yang" is something I disagree with completely and utterly. This line of thinking was introduced into some schools of taoism, the ones heavily influenced by buddhism, but not others. There is absolutely nothing in the taoist-proper sources (the Taoist Canon) to indicate that the primal state is pure yang. It is quite explicitly not the case if you examine and compare the Hetu and Luoshu diagrams, the Xian Tian bagua, even give a read to Laozi for that matter... All "pure yang" dissipates as pure borrowings if you look at the taoist originals.

 

 

 

That's the thing. Shen is yang compared to jing (aka yuan qi) -- compare thoughts and ideas to DNA and sexual fluids, compare your neocortical memory of the previous sentence to your systemic memory of your species' evolution... that's your shen vs. jing. Shen is on the surface; jing runs deep. Shen is what jing transforms into when you merely let it take its course... jing to shen is the way of dissipation and dispersion, is DNA to Dr. Shen, Ph.D.. to the grave.

 

So it's not a yin state that indicates death. It's a state of running out of yin. The way you run out of yin is via transformation of yin into yang (tao's business as usual), jing into shen. Death would have been a yin state if we only believed in the physical body as the beginning and end of life. Then indeed a dead body would be as yin an outcome as it gets. But the body is not the whole story. The spirit, Shen! -- that flies up and away, no? That persists and perseveres after death, or else what are we talking about, right?

 

So what state are we in when shen leaves the body?.. Well, a dead state, aka pure yang.

 

Death is what happens when you turn all your yin into yang.

 

 

 

If we identify "me" with "my dead body," yes. If we don't, no.

 

 

 

That's the thing... all yin lines do not indicate either illness or death -- they indicate an abundance of yin, yin that does not act in the outside world, yin that does not act not because someone filled with it to capacity is dead but because she is a fetus in the womb. All hidden, all Xian Tian, all full of ever-growing potential, all yin. Carried by a woman (has something to do with the female gender... traditionally yin-associated, no?). An introduction of a yang line into this situation displaces one yin line. When they all get displaced, blood will be spilled which, according to the I Ching's all-yang hexagram, is "red and yellow." These colors are symbolic of life in the taoist tradition -- well, red is obvious, blood proper, and yellow ("gold") is the color of the Gold Elixir of Immortality, of the Yellow Sprouts Field (aka lower dantien), of the Yellow Court (the site of taoist alchemical endeavors) -- in other words, the symbol of yuan (gold) qi. So in the taoist proper tradition, all yang signifies losing blood and yuan qi... losing life.

 

Whew... thanks for being with me this far.

 

TM; I will reply more about what you say later. no time right now.

I see that this calls for a degree of nuance in my reply that I at this point is not able to muster.

In a sense, some of what you define as disagreements here are more related to theoretical interpretation, and knowledge of the alchemical canon that I do not have. So you might very well be correct in your criticism.

 

If I may attempt to answer one key point it would be this; as a pragmatic marker in actual practice of Nei Dan, yin energy is not defined primarily as related to death or illness. But the alchemical process is one of cultivating the pure yang "pill" in the cavities, thus circulated and, further used to dispell all impure "yin" energies (i.e conditioned) that comes with aging process. The Shen is in this sense the essential nature or "cosmic" state in the body. It is the "starlight" in us. If we realize this light/space essence, it is one of pure yang. Unconditioned energy. This energy is "white", and has intercourse with the "red" yin energy thus creating the essence of the physical body. When these energies join, a "pill" is created that dispels the impure aspect, just like a log that is damp, placed in a fire will not burn bright, but dispels the moisture from the wood. Only when there is absence of dampness (yin) will the log burn up totally. This will the transform the wood to pure fire. We need to withdraw the shen back into the body and fuse it with the Yin to regenerate, and stop the dispersal of Shen.

 

This is how far my actual experience of this goes. I am a dabbler, and want to underline that.

You probably have more theoretical knowledge about this than I do.

 

h

Edited October 2, 2010 by hagar

[Taomeow]

Intercourse at a distance with clothes on and with pure yang as the goal... sounds like something monks may have come up with who were forbidden to have actual sex... A woman in such an intercourse is optional, since it's all about pure yang... sounds like a homoerotic fantasy more than anything else.

 

The "woman moves, man doesn't" tip I posted is related to actual taoist bedchamber arts that involve Xian Tian energies. Again we have to remember that Xian Tian refers to the prenatal condition. In the prenatal condition... sheesh, you have to have been pregnant to get it.

[宁]

Intercourse at a distance with clothes on and with pure yang as the goal... sounds like something monks may have come up with who were forbidden to have actual sex... A woman in such an intercourse is optional, since it's all about pure yang... sounds like a homoerotic fantasy more than anything else.

 

I'm not sure I should say anything about this.

But it would only be fair, as I learned alot here myself.

At first, when it happened to me my intention played only a small part. Then I learned what are the conditions that make it possible. The girl I was with was flabbergasted, as was I. Really expands the notion of sexuality to a much deeper level... She also commented alot on the experience. Mind you, I'm not into replacing 'traditional' intercourse with this kind of 'non-traditional encounter', but, what can I say, it can be quite an experience... much more lasting, profound and emotional. As far as I can tell, it's not consistent with Drew's descriptions of the process and result.

Should I mention that it opens a whole new dimension to personal practice and meditation also?

 

L1

[Taomeow]

I'm not sure I should say anything about this.

But it would only be fair, as I learned alot here myself.

At first, when it happened to me my intention played only a small part. Then I learned what are the conditions that make it possible. The girl I was with was flabbergasted, as was I. Really expands the notion of sexuality to a much deeper level... She also commented alot on the experience. Mind you, I'm not into replacing 'traditional' intercourse with this kind of 'non-traditional encounter', but, what can I say, it can be quite an experience... much more lasting, profound and emotional. As far as I can tell, it's not consistent with Drew's descriptions of the process and result.

Should I mention that it opens a whole new dimension to personal practice and meditation also?

 

L1

 

Thanks so much for sharing. Pity the public forum is not the best place to discuss delicate matters in more depth, I'd love to know more. If you're up to it, I'll listen. If not, I'll take your word for "a whole new dimension" though I don't know what dimension that is. The single weirdest sexual dimension I ever visited was at the bottom of a waterfall... a real physical waterfall, we were in the mountains and accidentally fell in.

 

Would you be able to make any kind of connection between your wonderful experience and the idea that the primal state (and a state to gear cultivation toward) is pure yang? My main objections were against this concept, and it is extremely widespread, extremely, which makes it so much more difficult to argue against... But bubble gum is even more widespread... things widely popularized are not automatically true and genuine. Bubble gum ain't no caviar. Pure yang ain't no goal of original taoist cultivation. I can't prove it to anyone who has been massively exposed to the opposite belief... but there's no harm in trying.

[Taomeow]

TM; I will reply more about what you say later. no time right now.

I see that this calls for a degree of nuance in my reply that I at this point is not able to muster.

In a sense, some of what you define as disagreements here are more related to theoretical interpretation, and knowledge of the alchemical canon that I do not have. So you might very well be correct in your criticism.

 

If I may attempt to answer one key point it would be this; as a pragmatic marker in actual practice of Nei Dan, yin energy is not defined primarily as related to death or illness. But the alchemical process is one of cultivating the pure yang "pill" in the cavities, thus circulated and, further used to dispell all impure "yin" energies (i.e conditioned) that comes with aging process. The Shen is in this sense the essential nature or "cosmic" state in the body. It is the "starlight" in us. If we realize this light/space essence, it is one of pure yang. Unconditioned energy. This energy is "white", and has intercourse with the "red" yin energy thus creating the essence of the physical body. When these energies join, a "pill" is created that dispels the impure aspect, just like a log that is damp, placed in a fire will not burn bright, but dispels the moisture from the wood. Only when there is absence of dampness (yin) will the log burn up totally. This will the transform the wood to pure fire. We need to withdraw the shen back into the body and fuse it with the Yin to regenerate, and stop the dispersal of Shen.

 

This is how far my actual experience of this goes. I am a dabbler, and want to underline that.

You probably have more theoretical knowledge about this than I do.

 

h

 

H,

 

I didn't mean for my comments to come across as "criticism,"

and I don't necessarily have more theoretical knowledge, I merely have a different kind of knowledge, and a different understanding. What I was trying to convey is that there's a difference between a concept you hold because someone says so, and one you arrive at because it makes sense within the overall paradigm of taoist sciences. Many teachers (who are no teachers of mine though) will equate yin with all kinds of "impure" states, but it simply doesn't compute if you go to the taoist fundamentals. It computes as an ideology that serves certain interests, but it does not compute as a taoist science. I believe I've learned to separate the former from the latter, at least to an extent... I was trying to share some of my methods and sources for doing this, that's basically the gist of it.

[exorcist_1699]

Intercourse at a distance with clothes on and with pure yang as the goal... sounds like something monks may have come up with who were forbidden to have actual sex... A woman in such an intercourse is optional, since it's all about pure yang... sounds like a homoerotic fantasy more than anything else.

 

The "woman moves, man doesn't" tip I posted is related to actual taoist bedchamber arts that involve Xian Tian energies. Again we have to remember that Xian Tian refers to the prenatal condition. In the prenatal condition... sheesh, you have to have been pregnant to get it.

 

 

" Xian Tian " ? Do you refer to " Xia Tian " (下田),the lower dantian?

 

By the way, the Taoist bedchamber arts should not be mixed up with Taoist Dual Cultivation.

Edited October 3, 2010 by exorcist_1699

[exorcist_1699]

Interesting and consistent with my own experience. Never knew about the Yuan Qi part though. Maybe it's because it's hard to identify?? What would be the characteristics of Yuan Qi? How would one 'feel' it?

 

What kind of Qi we get/ experience is related to what kind of mental state we have .

 

If we can't get some kind of Awakening, then the qi we get anyhow is low quality; and, what prevent us from entering a much higher state of Mind are mainly 2 factors:

 

1) Our daily , fluctuating reasoning and feelings..

 

2) Our ordinary, but fluctuating way of breathing

 

So, only after the above-mentioned two are stopped, can the pre-heavenly way of breathing arise and then the Yuan Qi comes..