America

[Cameron]

Ok..soul searching time..what is America to you?

 

For me , I am America. My parents came from opposite ends of the Earth(Middle East and Australia) and met in Austin, Texas in a nightclub in the 70's. The entire events that brought them together and how they met were unique to America being a kind of unique place where people could come from anywhere in the world and make a life for themselves and be successful.

 

That is the good part..we are basically free...we live in probably the ultimate market/capitalist society of all time where money is the focus of your life whether you like it one way or another..you can have fun in your career and work but you gots to pay the bills..

 

And obviously all the freedoms and wonderful people that were raised here and attracted to this country also is balanced out by all the pain, the slavery, the wars and victories and losses.

 

But who are we as a nation? Who are we becoming? What do you think we need to do to create a future and world that is better for our children or grandchildren?

 

Cam

Edited May 5, 2006 by Cameron

[Leo]

I think that it used to be that America always looked at itself as just and right, and if the story didn't support that it was changed or swept under the rug. That was dishonest, but it was at least sustainable for society. Now I am becoming increasingly alarmed about the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves. No people can survive as a people if they only tell negative stories about themselves. We look at ourselves with sneering sarcasm and scorn, we tell cynical stories about ourselves to ourselves and the world. And we wonder why people hate us.

 

Loving our country is not cool, and hasn't been for a long time. Anyone that loves America is looked at as either naive or corrupt. We tell the world that their problems are our doing. Is it any wonder they believe us? Most people want to blame someone else for their problems. The bigger and more powerful the target, the easier it is to cast blame on. And if that target is in perpetual spasms of self-flagellation? Well, heap it on!

 

Have America and Americans done negative things? You bet! People are people and we will all do good and bad things. But there is a hyper-judgmentalism about America right now, and we need to wake up and start presenting ourselves in a better light because if we don't, no one else will.

[turbo]

Ok..soul searching time..what is America to you?

 

Sorry dude, hate to be a bummer, but America defines itself by what it consumes. There is no true American culture outside of consumerism. Think of a major holday Christmas for instance. When was the last time that anyone waxed spiritual about the birth of Christ? People say Happy Holidays now, not Merry Christmas. And the day itself is based completley around consumerism. Thanksgiving - was not really a holiday until Abraham Lincon made it so (and thats pretty old, so it should qualify as culture). Valentines day - (I know it not really a "holday") but it was completly invented to sell stuff. Halloween - sells costumes.

 

Outside of Thanksgiving, can anyone come up with anything that all of America celebrates as its own? Perhaps the Constitution. July 4th.

 

Who are we as a nation? A lot of consumers who only want more and are willing to go into so much debt that we pay for our groceries on credit cards and have to file bankruptcy when something happens to cause us to miss work. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/

 

Who are we becoming? The pawns of corporations with more power, money, influence and less morality than the government (and thats not much). All of our "representaives" are corrupted by corporations who give them money to receive their favorable legislation. See: The Corporation.

 

...Better world for our children and grandchilren? The question is not whether, but how? Psychologists have tuned advertisments to cause children to beg for toy/game/whatever enough to break parents "beg tolerace" [again see The Corporation]. How can someone break a child of this? Dont expose them to TV. Ok, so send them to school where they around all the other kids who have seen it, it wears off on them, think second hand smoke. Ok, home school them. Its a lot of work to not only educate, but to properly socalize a child who has never leaves mommie and daddys side for a full day. Ok, so dont own a TV. Seems like a good option, I only play DVDs on mine, no cable or any other inputs into it.

Also, these ads continue to stimulate desire in kids. Obesity in children is at an all time high, many point the finger at soft drinks, but its the advertising, the image, not the flavor that makes kids want more. Dont think we are immune to it either, we watched the same ads (not as well tuned psychologically) but it stimultaed tons of desire in us. Why do you think that we have to dig so deep with meditation to rid ourselves of these defilements.

 

This does not even scratch the surface of the myriad of problems facing us, our children and their children. But hey, what can you do. Gotta enjoy the insanity of it all and laugh every now and again.

 

Anhow, hope the rant wasnt too much.

T

[Cameron]

No bummer at all man. Give it to me straight!

 

Actually I know a zen teacher who said the same thing, we are a culture of consumerism..and he dropped out of the business world after he got into the Dharma since he felt it was a manipulation of other people.

 

It's actually only lately that some commercials on TV especially aimed at children physically disguist me. Probably in part since I am realizing how manipulated I was and probably we all were. To eat bad food, to play with stupid toys of violence, to waste years of our lives in front of a tv screen playing useless games..to zone out and not challenge things and not give a shit about what our fucking government is doing since we are too busy getting high and buying new clothes and CD's..

 

Ok, now I am fucking bummed

 

But I do still think we have great potential as a country..but probably even better to say we have potential(I hope) as a world and a race at this point..

Edited May 5, 2006 by Cameron

[turbo]

But I do still think we have great potential as a country..but probably even better to say we have potential(I hope) as a world and a race at this point..

I tend to disagree. I think we have potential as individuals. America is led by the corrput, fed poision (food and television), and has become complacent. The only people in history who have made change are individuals. It is up to each of us to live our lives with intergrity and to not only set an example for others but to create positive change in our own environments. We are living on the cutting edge of life, each moment can never be regained and if we choose not to use it to move the ball forward then we risk losing out and we sell ourselves short. No more hiding in the caves waiting for imortality/enlightenment. We must engage the world and expose its flaws and its strengths, so that all can learn and not repeat the same mistakes.

/end motivational speech

[Smile]

But I do still think we have great potential as a country..but probably even better to say we have potential(I hope) as a world and a race at this point..

You must be kidding me. America is so fucked there is no way in hell we are getting out all the shit and karma we created just for the past few years. Just to take 3 countries of Chechnia and the area around, Afganistan and Iraq. If you're not even looking of all the people being killed or wounded, look at all the DU (depleted uranium) polution which is already causing all the abnormal babies being born in the area affected. The only way out of for people leaving in those parts are moving out. It's like mini-Chernobyls all over the place but the whole thing gets covered up so we can sleep better at night dreaming of making that next monthly payment.

 

There is no more America. You can cheat and lie openly in the White House and nothing happens. Constitution is gone and whatever is left is just a joke.

[neimad]

I tend to disagree. I think we have potential as individuals. America is led by the corrput, fed poision (food and television), and has become complacent. The only people in history who have made change are individuals. It is up to each of us to live our lives with intergrity and to not only set an example for others but to create positive change in our own environments. We are living on the cutting edge of life, each moment can never be regained and if we choose not to use it to move the ball forward then we risk losing out and we sell ourselves short. No more hiding in the caves waiting for imortality/enlightenment. We must engage the world and expose its flaws and its strengths, so that all can learn and not repeat the same mistakes.

/end motivational speech

 

right on.

 

this [r]evolution is one of the individual.....

 

something i realised.

lead by examble.

change yourself and do the right thing by your body.... as soon as enough people do this, it's finished. the world is reclaimed.

 

no running away to hide in a cave, so true.

my dad wants to dissapear for a 3 year retreat next year.

 

i personally think thats lame, enlightenment isn't found through meditating for endless hours, enlightenment is RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!

[Cameron]

You must be kidding me. America is so fucked there is no way in hell we are getting out all the shit and karma we created just for the past few years. Just to take 3 countries of Chechnia and the area around, Afganistan and Iraq. If you're not even looking of all the people being killed or wounded, look at all the DU (depleted uranium) polution which is already causing all the abnormal babies being born in the area affected. The only way out of for people leaving in those parts are moving out. It's like mini-Chernobyls all over the place but the whole thing gets covered up so we can sleep better at night dreaming of making that next monthly payment.

 

There is no more America. You can cheat and lie openly in the White House and nothing happens. Constitution is gone and whatever is left is just a joke.

 

 

Are you saying there is no distiniction between the action Bush administraton made and the karma of the entire country? I am not just saying American government I am saying America..the people who live here including you and me.

 

I was complaining (just like you probably were) to customers, other students, family, whoever about invading Iraq and this administration from the beginning. Are you saying people against all these wars are responsible? I don't think so..I think the people who bombed and gave the orders are responsible. Period.

Edited May 5, 2006 by Cameron

[sunshine]

 

my dad wants to dissapear for a 3 year retreat next year.

 

i personally think thats lame, enlightenment isn't found through meditating for endless hours, enlightenment is RIGHT HERE RIGHT NOW!

 

It"s far from being lame if the intent is right, neimand. Sometimes it needs time off in order to be able to come back... !

 

What is America for an outsider?

 

There is no America per se. It is a conglomerate of many different types of people... the stories I hear here about America are very likely as disgusting as what some of you might have heard about Germans... a woman I currently work with went to some place in America at the age of 15... a study showed that most students of her school where she state had no clue about HIV/AIDS and if they had, they did not care... over 60 % of those that made it through school were infected... is this "not knowing" or "ignoring" America? Don"t think so... a guy I know (one of the superintelligent types) went to America to study a year at school... he said that in history classes students get told downright lies about history... is this America? I hope not? I personally feel that thinking about "us" as part of a nation leads one the wrong way... thinking about us as people under people, humans under humans might be the better look upon it...

[Lozen]

I love this country.

[SheepishLord]

I'm with Max. It is the end for this country. Nations have karma and it doesn't matter if 1/2 the nation is against the war, everyone will pay.

 

Mind you, the force (secret agenda) that is behind this country will continue on with strength because it has a different idea of borders then we do, but it will leave this country to rot like a spent carcass.

[karen]

An article about America that makes some important distinctions. (I posted the wrong link originally.. it works now).

 

In a nutshell, the NWO uses Hegelian dialectics to divide and conquer. They have no national allegiance at all, but pitting nation against nation, left against right, etc., is the method of manipulation. When we hate one side or another, one nation or another, we're being used, we're engaging in the manufactured drama.

 

-Karen

Edited May 5, 2006 by karen

[Smile]

Are you saying there is no distiniction between the action Bush administraton made and the karma of the entire country? I am not just saying American government I am saying America..the people who live here including you and me.

 

I was complaining (just like you probably were) to customers, other students, family, whoever about invading Iraq and this administration from the beginning. Are you saying people against all these wars are responsible? I don't think so..I think the people who bombed and gave the orders are responsible. Period.

 

You are right but we will also pay the price when this economy collapses and this country goes into a depression. You can consider it as the payment for being passive about the whole thing. Other people bombed and gave orders- we watched them and talked about it on a discussion board.

[thaddeus]

okayyyy now..how 'bout them mets?

T

[Leo]

[Cameron]

You are right but we will also pay the price when this economy collapses and this country goes into a depression. You can consider it as the payment for being passive about the whole thing. Other people bombed and gave orders- we watched them and talked about it on a discussion board.

 

 

What else can we do?

 

I seriously doubt America will ever have another depression. Where do you get this thinking from, if oil reserves run out or something?

 

Probably we will move to alternative energy completely in next couple decades even with oil cartels support/backing.

 

Or do you still think we're all out of here in 2012?

 

Cam

Edited May 5, 2006 by Cameron

[Lozen]

Bravo, bravo!!!

[neimad]

What else can we do?

 

I seriously doubt America will ever have another depression. Where do you get this thinking from, if oil reserves run out or something?

 

Probably we will move to alternative energy completely in next couple decades even with oil cartels support/backing.

 

Or do you still think we're all out of here in 2012?

 

Cam

 

 

no offense.... but america is going to collapse economically, probably the worst crash ever.

just another place trodden on in the totalitarian agenda. (plus you got that super volcano rumbling in yellowstone...)

 

hey last year when i was researching a lot, i found a newspaper article (can't remember where now) that said 1 in ever 173 americans were imprisoned.....

 

that's homeland security for ya!

 

careful what you say cos very likely you could be whisked away.

 

they got those big detention centres where they can hold people indefinately without trial.

 

 

personally though, i think it's going to get real rough in the coming years. but the human spirit will prevail. we are just that resilient

[sean]

My parents fucked here. That's about how much sentimentality I have for this country outside of the people that I know and love that live here. On the whole I find America gaudy, crass, fundamentalist, narcissistic ... psychopathic even. Outside of the Bay Area 9 out 10 people I meet are either blue or orange, which is fine, it's just not where I'm at and it gets old. I've spent time in almost every state in the US and prefer almost anywhere in Europe ... once I get enough passive income going I'll probably leave unless Yoda and I's David Koresh-style compound happens before then.

[Cameron]

Would you rank the Bay Area higher? Dennis said the same thing that the bay Area has a more open vibe or something?

 

Maybe I'll move there someday if it's that great..

[Trunk]

But who are we as a nation? Who are we becoming? What do you think we need to do to create a future and world that is better for our children or grandchildren?

Citizenship Papers by Wendell Berry

[turbo]

...kvetch...

 

You asked for it.

 

Brent and Shirley Roper

3640 SW Churchill Rd

Topeka, KS 66604

785-273-7262

785-273-0277

785-273-1080

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1G470rfJQCI

 

 

Ain't religion great?

[sean]

Would you rank the Bay Area higher? Dennis said the same thing that the bay Area has a more open vibe or something?

 

Maybe I'll move there someday if it's that great..

Bay Area is mostly Green (as in "Green Meme" on Spiral Dynamics) ... which is about as good as you are going to get in terms of the basic values of a whole community anywhere in the world really ... outside of maybe a few really progressive spiritual communities hanging out in yellow I imagine. But Green has it's own annoying quirks too, it's not paradise.

 

Via Green: A Transvaluation of Values

Green pluralism maintains, in its extreme--and most common--forms, that culturally there is no good or bad, no better or worse: there are no universal standards by which we may judge one culture to be better or worse than another. In fact, we cannot say anything about an Other that the Other would not say about itself.

I disagree, Green.

 

Sean

[Pietro]

Ok..soul searching time..what is America to you?

 

For me ...

 

But who are we as a nation? Who are we becoming? What do you think we need to do to create a future and world that is better for our children or grandchildren?

 

Hello Cam.

I would like to give you my unique perspective on all this. And it might sound harsh, and it might sound unpleasent, but I do hope that it doesn't sound (or is) untrue.

 

Look at your question:

soul searching time...

...

what is America to you

...

who are WE as a nation?...

 

Now just imagine, what would have happened if I where to write:

soul searching time...

...

what is Italy to you

...

who are WE as a nation?...

 

Wouldn't it feel strange? Wouldn't it feel extraneous. Being the only Italian here you might think it is only a matter of number. But I could have said:

soul searching time...

...

what is Europe to you

...

who are WE as a union?...

 

Because there are quite a lot of Europeans in this forum. And still it would feel strange. Or I could have asked the 'what is Italy to you' question in an Italian Forum. You know what would have happened? I would have been considered crazy. A Raving maniac. I am not making this up, this is exactly the attitude most Italian have respect to who idealises Italy. We accept this kind of phrase from the president of the republic, but only during official speach, and while he is in office. It's not that we don't love Italy. We just don't identify with it.

But there is something more. We don't link our soul to our nation. Maybe you were joking, but also jokes has a line of truth. If anyone where to ask something like that as a soul searching question in Italy, he would be the joke of two generations. Still his sons at school would still get it:"And you know what your father once said... ? WaHaHaHaHa".

 

And there is not this idealistic vision regarding Europe too. Yeah, we might have ways in which we like to procede, but there isn't this 'Europe is the greatest' belief. Belief that is as much present in the liberal as in the conservative from what I see in the USA. Ok more in the conservative, but slightly.

 

And then there is this attitude of no one else exists. And sorry if I keep going back to your question but, I believe, it is foundamental. Was your question worded to consider people not fromt he USA. Something like: and what you Eurpean, you Australian, you Middle Eastern people think about how this nation is acting in the world. And this is why it would also feel strange if a European where to ask something like this in an international forum like this. He would surely have worder the question to consider people from other nations. From other backgrounds. And this is probably the biggest single fault that I see in American people. This attitude that ignores the existance of the rest of the world. I know you are aware of the rest of the world, but if in somthing as simple as writing a message in a forum, you forget us, what is this saying?

 

After september 11 the article that I felt was better describing my emotions was They can't see why they are hated. (Which I invite you to read). Many things have changed, ad many American are more aware than they where 5 years ago. But the general attitude is still there, and I feel that attitude is at the core of what is happening, and has happened.

 

Because nations seem always to get the worse government that can get away with respect to the people. And if the American people simply ignore what is the goverment doing abroad, then the government knows it can get away with many crimes.

None of us agrees with the ways that Bin Laden used. But if you read his speach you realise how the root of his crime (and it was a crime!) was in previous crimes committed by the Usa.

 

You know, in my view, why was America great, and why it isn't anymore, and also why was Hitler doom to fall, and what can you do right now. Because there is a single underlying thing which links all those together. It's called immigration and emigration. When I was a kid, America was the dream. The generation of my parents, the baby boomers, were grown up during the years of the Marshal plan. My father went to the US for 1 year when he was 16 and this gave him an extra strength in work. Knowing English well, having a view which was not limited to Italy (Europe was nothing at the time). Few people of his generation did it. But many many went abroad. How many American have a passport? How many European have been out of Europe? More.

 

But now people are not going to the US anymore (and I lost the article describing this).

Thirty years ago people would go to the US and study there. Make a master there. Sometimes a PhD. All this was a richness for the US. Now people come to Europe, go to Australia, China.

 

I was once offered to study with one of the big guys in my field. I declined: I would have to go live in California. I don't consider my rights as a human being secure enough over there. I would feel more secure in Cuba, at least I am politically left. It's more unprobable that I would disappear.

 

The Lord of the Rings was not shot in the US, it was shot in New Zeland. Increasingly big projects are not happening in the US.

 

Which brings us to Hitler. Beside the invasion, the single reason why Hitler was doomed to fall, was (apart being a vegetarian, sorry I couldn't stop myself), because he made Germany a place so unpleasent to live that all the creative people, all the scientist, left. Fermi, Maiorana, Einstein, where all from Germany-Italy, and nations that were controlled by Hitler-Mussolini. But when Hitler rose the intelligentzia left. And they made the bomb somwhere else. They met all in Los Alamos, in the T-department. All together working on the bomb.

 

But, it is not just the US right now. Also Italy. Consider this, I was educated in Italy, and now I am working in Germany. I will soon move to Dublin. The possibilities to become a professor in Italy are slim (too much political games), but I get invited here and there. Apart the problem of not finding a gf who is willing to relocate every 3 years, I am actually contributing to everybody else richness. My work is giving papers, projects, work, patents to other nations. Not to Italy. And Italy spent a huge amount of money in educating me.

 

Think about this: There are more papers from Italian researchers aborad than from Italian researchers in Italy. Think how bad must research in Italy be. What should at this point Italy do? Russia and China faced with the same problem did not permit to people who are in their working years to leave. That is the last resort. And you are even protesting for immigration (as it is Italy). That's such a joke! I know there are different kind of immigrations, but the US became big because of all immigration, it had.

 

So what you should do? Vote with your feet. Leave. Go abroad. Travel, and relocate. And then you will not be supporting the US anymore. You will not share the Karma. Stop identifying with your nation and identify with your planet or with the whole of humanity. Where can you be to better help humanity? And when you are physically in a nation you are supporting it.

Edited May 6, 2006 by Pietro

[thaddeus]

 

Which brings us to Hitler. Beside the invasion, the single reason why Hitler was doomed to fall, was (apart being a vegetarian, sorry I couldn't stop myself), because he made Germany a place so unpleasent to live that all the creative people, all the scientist, left. Fermi, Maiorana, Einstein, where all from Germany-Italy, and nations that were controlled by Hitler-Mussolini. But when Hitler rose the intelligentzia left.

 

I was really liking what you were saying up until this point and then I had to say to myself..WTF. The single reason why Hitler 'failed'???? Do you need 11+ million reasons why? C'mon.

T