America

[Pietro]

I was really liking what you were saying up until this point and then I had to say to myself..WTF. The single reason why Hitler 'failed'???? Do you need 11+ million reasons why? C'mon.

T

Sorry. Let me rephrase it, I kind of put all the crimes under the same hat: things that made people go away.

 

The one reason that enough would have made him fall regardless of anything else.

The crimes he made, the way he treated people, the whole thing made sure that anybody with a spark of creativity and money, left. At that point the technological jump happened somwhere else. And if the war wasn't already won by that time it would have made sure Germany would have been history.

And of course the crimes placed also America in the position that if they had to use the bomb it would not be have been a political problem.

 

I am not making here a moral statement, but a practical one. If a person has a gun and reason (true or believed) that he needs to use it, and a morality that let him do it, on someone else who has no gun (ok exception made of the creator of Aikido), the other is probably dead. Well Hitler by acting like he did made sure that the technological jump happened somwhere else. And before German war technology was among the best. The machine guns of WWII of Germany would fire more bulletts without jamming than even modern machine guns. But there is something on how the military is grounded in society. And society in creativity that made germany eventually fall behind in something more important.

 

Does this sounds better?

 

Pietro

Edited May 6, 2006 by Pietro

[Peregrino]

Bongiorno, Pietro!

 

I'm an Amercan who did vote with my feet to leave the US and move to the EU (Spain), and I haven't looked back since. I really hate Bush, prefer the more civilized pace of life in Europe, the decent and universal health care, lack of gaping economic inequalities, etc. HOWEVER, I really can't pin ALL of the jihadis' rage on the US, and believe that Europeans (minus the sturdy Slavs) are as naive as ever about the need to defend themselves. Note: defending oneself does not equal invading Iraq for non-existent WMDs!

 

The jihadist attacks in Spain are not just about the war in Iraq, and I believe they would have occurred even if Chickenhawk IdiotBoy in the White House hadn't invaded Saddam-land. If you look at the writings of Al-Qaeda and other groups (e.g. Hamas), besides their ludicrous and indefensible "Elders of Zion"-style anti-Semitism (and I'm not simply referring to anti-Israeli sentiment, but truly genocidal anti-Sentimism, a longstanding problem in Europe, as you'll recall), these fundies actually want to re-claim Spain as its lost kingdom from the Middle Ages (Al-Andalus). Oy vey! I know they've got good hash in the Middle East and South Asia, but WTF else were these guys smoking?

 

So, obvious American narcissism aside (and I can see it in spades right now, as I'm back in the US visiting my family til Sunday), what would you say to do about the "clueless European wussy problem," as I affectionately call it? Will the EU finally have to import some Eastern Euro mercenaries (no Serbs, please!) to defend itself, since most Western Euro men have become hopelessly feeble, and inviting American "liberators" yet again would be just too humiliating, and would rapidly accelerate the already proceeding McDonalds- and Starbucksificiation of a great, diversified civilization?

 

Maybe you think I'm paranoid in my animus against radical jihad, but just have a listen to what many imams are saying, and take a closer look at what their followers are actually doing within Europe (Theo Van Gogh, RIP), and just keep in mind that my thinking gravitates in the opposite direction of Bush and towards George *Orwell*, a lifelong socialist and secularist who knew that progressive institutions needed more than progressive cappucino-sipping chatterers to defend them. BTW, have you read Bat Ye'or's _Eurabia_ yet?

 

Finally, and apropos of this website's orientation, what do you think is the appropriate *Taoist* (or, "spiritually enlightened," or whatever label you prefer) response to radical Islamic violence? Do you really think it will all end just by distancing yourself from the US? Do you think the bikini-hating, gay-murdering Islamic fundamentalists will leave Europeans alone just becasue they claim to hate, or at least disavow, the US too? If you listen to a lot of the imams (again, not just abroad, but IN EUROPE), they openly preach of the inferiority of EUROPEAN (not just American) culture, and proclaim the goal of its conquest and subjection to sharia.

 

As I flew over Paris on my way out here, I saw all those glorious achievements and could only say to myself, "Please don't implode, Europe--get your heads out of your asses and defend all those glorious achievements that BOTH the US AND the Islamic theocracies lack." How do we make the viable third (or multiple) enlightened way(s) beyond the false choice of Jihad vs. McWorld? Something to think about . . .

 

Peace--but with a backbone and cojones,

Peregrino

[Leo]

[thaddeus]

Sorry. Let me rephrase it, I kind of put all the crimes under the same hat: things that made people go away.

 

The one reason that enough would have made him fall regardless of anything else.

Does this sounds better?

 

Pietro

Maybe i'm seeing things..i read 'fail' not fall..so i was wondering what you were really trying to say...my apologies..I had to get up way too early today..

T

[sean]

So, mark my words. Remember this thread. Ten years from now some overeducated kid is gonna come up to you and pick an argument. He will spout a bunch of hardcore Neo-Conservative nonsense. He will tell you George W. Bush was a God. He will be ruthless and cut you to the quick with his statistics and facts. And you will stare at him open-mouthed with the knowledge that any attempt to argue will be met with derision and scorn. You will know that it would be pointless. And when that happens, please, for my sake, buy the kid a beer!

Hahah... Awesome! That is so true.

[Renewal]

Wow this has turned into an interesting thread.

Well, to add yet another non-American perspective I offer my humble canuck opinion. As far as I can see, most of the problems facing America both domestically and internationally are caused by corporations run amok. There is a frightening ultra capitalist/consumerism (embraced wholly by both the left & right) mentality in the United States, fueled by a media & advertising industry that reaches into every corner of daily life, both overtly and subliminally. Information overload.

I see and meet a lot of foreign students that study in Canada, and in their countries a person goes to school to learn and better themselves. In the United States, everything is tied to consumerism, even the education system. A young person there is'nt going to school to learn, their going to school so they can get turned into productive little consumers, get that ridiculously high paying job, buy three cars, buy that huge house, buy those new shoes.

Someone here said that people are no longer going to the United States, which is false. There are millions of latin Americans flooding into the United States every year "illegally", for the purpose of generating new American born citizens down the road to pay off the triilion dollar deficits and billion dollar wars that we see today.

While I am at heart a capitalist, the "Globalization" of the worlds economy, pushed in large part by America deeply worries me. I no longer fear world or nuclear wars, peace is far more profitable. Why nuke your enemy when you can sell them sneakers, or better yet get them to make you sneakers? (Case in point, China & the U.S.) This ever spreading consumerism is probably why many people around the world dislike the U.S., even though their own governments perpetrate it on them and then use America as a convenient scapegoat for all the worlds ills.

At heart I honestly think most Americans are decent well meaning people. But they need to start reigning in the corporations and special interests that control the congress.

Well, sorry if I went off there. Just my opinion.

[Lozen]

Wow. That's a pretty ridiculous assertion that students in Canada want to better themselves, and to learn, and students in America just want high-paying jobs and four cars. I guess none of the people I know who are in school to study and learn, or to get careers that will help others, actually exist. Or maybe we're not really American.

 

I'm having a hard time understanding how you can judge a whole entire country based on your personal anecdotes.

 

And yes, there are thousands of people illegally crossing the border in droves to be in our god-awful, evil, capitalist country. You know why? They want health care.

 

And as the article Leo posted points out, we give more assistance than any other country in the world...

[SheepishLord]

An article about America that makes some important distinctions. (I posted the wrong link originally.. it works now).

 

In a nutshell, the NWO uses Hegelian dialectics to divide and conquer. They have no national allegiance at all, but pitting nation against nation, left against right, etc., is the method of manipulation. When we hate one side or another, one nation or another, we're being used, we're engaging in the manufactured drama.

 

-Karen

 

Agreed. This is what I was referring to. The enemy has no country. Only control.

[Lozen]

I am thankful that I live in a country where there is no caste system.

 

I am thankful that I live in a country where I can choose who I marry, or whether I marry.

 

I am thankful that I live in a country where I am allowed to express myself freely.

 

I am thankful that my family was able to immigrate here for the education (no, not for the limousines, sorry) and because they wanted to be able to support themselves.

 

I am thankful that in this great country I live in, I am able to support myself.

 

I am thankful for the huge myriad of social services this country offers both to its citizens and to the rest of the world.

 

To bring this back to Taoism, I'm reminded of something Ken Cohen said when Cam and I heard him speak. He said that the greatest Taoist teachers are in this country. He said that one woman he taught with told him once that she understood why her students asked questions. "Because they wish to know the answers."

 

We live in a country where you CAN ask questions without worrying that you will offend people. We live in a country that allows such a level of independence and questioning and thinking and expression that this country will even support its own citizens who hate everything about it, will support their right to expression. There are so many countries in the world that can't say the same.

 

I'm sure people will disagree with this, but I believe we have an amazing court system in this country, which goes to all kinds of lengths to make sure there is a fair outcome in a trial. I really think people forget how good we have it as far as court systems go. I watched a video of a "trial" held in another country where a woman was being accused of adultery. She was brought into the room, the charge was read, a bunch of men heated up a tea kettle, and talked about her but not to her, and the way she "proved" her innocence was by licking the tea kettle three times, to show that she was a virtuous woman. They also inspected her tongue to make sure it did not blister, because the blister would signify impurities brought upon by her alleged unlawful behavior. We actually live in a country where people look at evidence, and you won't get locked in prison for several years without a trial because you belong to the wrong political party, and I think people forget that sometimes.

 

What else? Gosh, there really is so much to be thankful for. I know that when I was in England they told us it was illegal to carry signs that said anything bad about the queen. And I had a friend who went to France, and people had to hide their herbal medicine behind the counter, because it is illegal to put herbs in alcohol--making medicine without a license. In England almost all the herbs are bought in these nasty drug stores where everything is sterile and you can't smell the lovely aroma or look at the plants you are buying. They are all standardized, in little drug-looking containers. Same with Germany.

 

I've also been to other countries that have virtually no wilderness areas. And when I spent time in Central America, the poverty was so extreme and the people that lived there were so distressed that it tore at your heartstrings. I haven't seen that level of desperation here unless it was self-induced. I don't know that many in this country know what true suffering really is.

 

And I know that just like in Leo's article, some people will feel the need to nitpick all of this and criticize every wrong, real or imagined, this country has every been involved in. And I'm reminded of a guy I met on an Amtrak ride from Oregon to Chicago. I mentioned that it was beautiful out and he said, "Yeah, but look at the smog." Another lovely train commuter offered me an orange, which I willingly accepted, and he yelled at the man, "Don't give her that poison, it's not organic!" And on and on and on. You can look at the bright side, or you can spend all your time nitpicking real or perceived flaws of this country. And I agree--if you aren't doing something to change what you think is a problem, then you're part of the problem. And if you really are oh-so-worried about the bad karma you will collect when our great country spends time and money helping people all over the globe--then leave. That simple.

[Renewal]

Wow. That's a pretty ridiculous assertion that students in Canada want to better themselves, and to learn, and students in America just want high-paying jobs and four cars.

 

Agreed, sorry. What I should have said, is that is the general perception of Americans around a great deal of the world. I have no doubt most Americans are going to school for far more meaningful purposes than what I mentioned. I'm simply annoyed by the rampant consumerism which is glorified in American culture. But I cant be too biased, as that kind of attitude is present in my own country and many others. If I sounded too judgemental, I apologize.

[Lozen]

Sorry dude, hate to be a bummer, but America defines itself by what it consumes. There is no true American culture outside of consumerism. Think of a major holday Christmas for instance. When was the last time that anyone waxed spiritual about the birth of Christ? People say Happy Holidays now, not Merry Christmas. And the day itself is based completley around consumerism. Thanksgiving - was not really a holiday until Abraham Lincon made it so (and thats pretty old, so it should qualify as culture). Valentines day - (I know it not really a "holday") but it was completly invented to sell stuff. Halloween - sells costumes.

 

Easter, MLK Day, Memorial Day, Flag Day, Labor Day, Veteran's Day... And I disagree that Thanksgiving revolves around consumerism.

 

Who are we as a nation? A lot of consumers who only want more and are willing to go into so much debt that we pay for our groceries on credit cards and have to file bankruptcy when something happens to cause us to miss work.

 

So don't go into debt. Rip up your credit cards. Set up an emergency account. That;s what I did, and I'm a receptionist who started out at less than ten bucks an hour. Or you can go into debt and bitch about how you were forced to because of American culture. And btw, other countries have debt too.

 

You don't like the education system? Get in there and change it. You don't like obesity? Get the schools to get soda machines...oh wait, that already happened!

 

Why blame this country when it's just individual's own choices?!?!

 

Sorry I'm ranting... I know my patriotism will piss off everyone on this board, but I'm tired of people disrespecting our country and acting like victims instead of getting in there and changing things...

[turbo]

Which brings us to Hitler.

 

"As a thread grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."

 

Also, the reason he lost is because he tried to fight a war on two fronts. He should have learned from Napoleon. One must suppose that his ego got his the way. BTW, the Third Reich came up with some new technologies and the rest of the world learned a lot about medicine from their inhumane experiments.

 

 

Back to America - where do you start unraveling the gordian knot we've wrapped ourselves up in? How do you get a voice of sanity out to the masses and have them recognize it as such? Art? Music? Film? These seem like mediums through which some unknown has a major breakthrough into the public's conciousness every now and again.

[Lozen]

Renewal,

I too am annoyed by rampant consumerism... I am a big fan of the voluntary simplicy movement. (Which incidentally started in the U.S.... sorry, couldn't help it.)

[turbo]

You don't like the education system? Get in there and change it. You don't like obesity? Get the schools to get soda machines...oh wait, that already happened!

 

Why blame this country when it's just individual's own choices?!?!

 

Sorry I'm ranting... I know my patriotism will piss off everyone on this board, but I'm tired of people disrespecting our country and acting like victims instead of getting in there and changing things...

 

Many in this county do have the opportunity to or choose not receive an education that allows them to interprit the statements accompanying their agreements with financial instutions. Credit card agreements, loan documents, mortgages, deeds of trust, and the like. Financial instutions are well aware of this and add language in these documents so as to take as much advantage of them as the law will allow.

 

Please educate yourself on the matter. Click here.

 

Sure we may have the resources and smarts to pay off our credit cards or to not over spend on them in the first place. Not everyone is that fortunate.

 

 

Why blame the country? Because the government can put limits on these matters and keep people from losing their homes. Ever heard of an adjustable rate mortgage? The bank can change the interest rate on your mortgage whenever they feel like it (per the terms of your mortgage, see the lack of education comment above). People who chose (I'm not denying its not their lack of jugment that got them into it) mortgages may have their payments DOUBLE by the end of the year. Many of these people were encouraged to purchase homes greater than they could afford in the first place. What can America do about it? Hmm well we could change the corporate culture so as not to bleed people so hard for money. However, a corporate officer will be sued for breach of fiduciary duty if he/she were to choose an option that did not increase earnings per share as much as possible.

 

There are no easy answers and instead of singing the praises of our great country while turning a blind eye to those who suffer we should take a sober look at our problems and try to help out.

 

Running to another country to get away from America is not a viable solution either. If all the people perceptive enough to recognize that things are screwed up here left, then the blind would be leading the blind (if in fact they aren't already). You cant escape problems by running from them, we must face up and begin discussing them so some solutions can be found.

[Cameron]

Wow..ok it will probably take me a week to actually get the time and patience to absorb all this..great feedback!

 

Just to quickly respond to Pietro..sorry Paisono I meant no offense. I welcome all our European and Australian friends and whoever else reads The Tao Bums to open up and share the opnions/feelings about this subject.

 

If it came off as a boorish American expression it was not intended.

 

Cam

Edited May 7, 2006 by Cameron

[Pietro]

Just to quickly respond to Pietro..sorry Paisono I meant no offense. I welcome all our European and Australian friends and whoever else reads The Tao Bums to open up and share the opnions/feelings about this subject.

 

If it came off as a boorish American expression it was not intended.

No offense taken at all. It happens pretty commonly, and I (we) normally keep our mouth shut. But in this case it fitted well. After all you asked what was wrong with the US and I thought the problem is in the government and the root of the government is in the people and in this attitude. I was just giving a feedback.

 

I've also been to other countries that have virtually no wilderness areas. And when I spent time in Central America, the poverty was so extreme and the people that lived there were so distressed that it tore at your heartstrings.

Lozen,

how long have you been in other countries?

Where you living there or being a tourist (or something else)?

 

Thanks.

[Peregrino]

Running to another country to get away from America is not a viable solution either. If all the people perceptive enough to recognize that things are screwed up here left, then the blind would be leading the blind (if in fact they aren't already). You cant escape problems by running from them, we must face up and begin discussing them so some solutions can be found.

 

I have great respect for people who remain in the US and choose to light a candle rather than curse the darkness. I returned to the US from Spain and spent two years in human service jobs (case manager at a homeless shelter and employment specialist for persons with disabilities and barriers to employmet), but in the end I found myself too much in love with the differences I found in Europe. Still a lot that I admire about the US, but as my name is peregrino (pilgrim), I've rambled a lot and finally found the place I most love, based on experience, not speculation.

 

IMHO, for all the good intentions of many hard-working individuals, the biggest problems in the US are still structural, and I include the media as a "structure" that sends out an ideology--esp. consumerist narcissism--that very much affects people's perception of reality. Some other time I want to start a thread on the spiritual infantilism and narcissism of much of the pop psychology and "self-esteemism" that is rampant in the US, but for now I'll chant a respectful round of "USA! USA!" in specific memory of some great heroes who are near and dear to my heart: Quaker abolitionists like John Woolman; all the soldiers, black and white, who crushed the Southern Slavocracy; MLK; Dorothy Day (even though her pacifism contradicts my belief in just wars like the US Civil War); Cesar Chavez; and the 1980 Olympic Hockey Team.

 

--Peregrino

[Cameron]

After all you asked what was wrong with the US and I thought the problem is in the government and the root of the government is in the people and in this attitude. I was just giving a feedback.

Thanks.

 

 

Actually, I didn't ask what is "wrong" with US I asked what US is to YOU. But I guess for you that sounded like asking what is WRONG and someone like Lozen that sounded like asking what is RIGHT.

[Pietro]

Actually, I didn't ask what is "wrong" with US I asked what US is to YOU. But I guess for you that sounded like asking what is WRONG and someone like Lozen that sounded like asking what is RIGHT.

[Lozen]

Turbo--There are plenty of organizations out there that teach money management, etc. At the drop-in center I volunteer at, they actually have free classes for people to teach them about debt, mortgage, etc. etc. There are whole non-profits solely devoted to helping teach low-income people about money. Also, this country has one of the best library systems in the world. Nobody is stopping people from educating themselves. And yes, I do sing the praises of our great country, but I also spend a hell of a lot of time volunteering to help change things I don't like. I just don't see the point in whining about things I see a problem with and not doing anything.

 

Pietro--I was born in Israel and lived there for six years. I spent 8 months studying in England and travelled around Scotland, Wales, Ireland for about a month. I visited El Salvador for three weeks on an educational vacation. I've travelled quite a bit through Canada and some other places and of course back to Israel.

 

Oh, and by the way, many of the people I grew up with in Israel, as well as many of the students I met in Oxford, as well as almost everyone I met in El Salvador, they all want to move here... Coincidence?

[Michael]

I am brand new here, and I don't want to presume anything about the board members here, so please don't take personal offense to anything I'm getting ready to ask. I'm just curious, and being ignorant to the group dynamic here, I'm aware I may step on some toes, but I assure you, it is not intentional.

 

Regarding the comments that America is going to collapse, that we're heading for the biggest economic meltdown ever, and other doomsday comments of that nature, I'm curious: Are these simply emotional responses from people who are angry with our current government, or are they based on some evidence? It seems that the numbers and statistics tell a different story, at least as far as the economy is concerned. Our interest rates are still comparatively low, meaning we can afford to purchase surpluses of goods at lower proces (putting them away for a rainy day, so to speak). Our economy is experiencing pretty substantial growth, especially when you consider how large it is. The job market and unemployment numbers would seem to indicate that everyone that wants a job in this country pretty much has one. Why the doom and gloom? How can you think America's economy is ready to fall apart, and what are you basing these opinions on? I'm not sharpshooting here - I'm genuinely curious, since most of what I've read and seen is to the contrary.

 

Also, about the karma issue. When did karma become a subject to the state? Karma is a principle that exists outside any national borders. It's a personal "lesson plan" so to speak. In reference to the whole country paying the price for the karma of the wicked, doesn't that sort of blow the whole theory out of the water? If the people who've done right and have "built up" (for lack of a better term) their own good karma, isn't it awfully contradictory to assume they will suffer for the misdeeds of others? In my opinion, that kind of philosophy shows a real chink in your belief system. Besides, I'm pretty certain that people have been exploring the ins and outs of karma long before America even existed, so how can we all be expected to pay the price simply because "our parents fucked here."

 

Personally, I am a very proud American. I love this country, and in many ways, I am a product of the abundance of opportunity that exists here. I've grown out of my "station" in this life because the opportunities existed for me to pursue my own dreams. Money was never the motivator, as I spent several years with literally none. From living off the land in the Sierra Nevada mountains to being a homeless guy on the streets of Los Angeles, I realized early that money was not the engine that drives American life, but personal motivation. One can be happy with or without money. Given that fact, what's left? The pursuit of ideals. And America allows for that in each and every life within its borders. Within a year of that realization, I had achieved everything on my "Ambitions List" and found myself working at something I loved, for myself, and making more than enough money to only have to do it about 8 hours a week. I'm still doing that, and it's having a broad ranging impact and saving lives in places most of us would be scared to even go. I'm still a very happy person, as I was when I had no money at all, but now instead of sleeping in a sleeping bag at Salt Creek Beach, I own my own home, and I'm typing to you fine people on my own computer. So for me, the money made conveniences easier, but it certainly hasn't dictated my attitude. And since I've been to other countries and have seen how their people live, I know that what has occurred in my life, while accessible to anyone here, is nearly unheard of in many places. Imagine an Untouchable in India, or a famine stricken tribesman in Africa trying to change his station in life, and watching it happen inside a single year.

 

My attitude toward this country - the reason I believe it to be so wonderful and so great - is based on things I've lived, seen, and experienced. I just wonder if much of the negativity I'm hearing here about our country is coming from facts and experiences, or if it's just emotional reaction to a President or set of policies with which you personally disagree.

 

Looking forward to the discussion.

[Cameron]

I agree. I had an economics class a few months ago and asked that very question "is it possible the US could ever have another depression like the great depression?"

 

My teacher said it could never happen .We have too many safeguards in place to prevent it. the economy as far as I can tell is very strong.

 

Some of the people who talk like this beleive the world is run by a secret govenrnment of reptillian alien creatures and think David Icke is an authentic spiritual teacher.

 

If you want to respect the views of a guy who thinks the Queen of England is a lizard(no, I am not kidding that's what he says) by all means but don't expect me to pay much attention to what you say.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Cameron

[Lozen]

Welcome to the board, Michael.

 

I found some old Peter Falk quotes about Icke that I want to post (god, I miss that guy), they are pretty old but I feel still relevant.

 

Cam and I were talking the other day about how here in the desert we see these cute little lizards running around all the time (maybe I should put my old avatar back up) and hardly think they are responsible for all the world's evils.

 

Anyways, good ol' Petey argued this better than I ever could.

 

ok, ronnietzu, i love a good conspiracy theory as much as the next guy, but david icke is full of shit. he contends the world is ruled by shapeshifiting reptiles that eat children. every president, every monarch, every rich guy, and most celebrities, are to him, giant reptilians who feed on teh flesh of babes. (in fact, he's rather mccarthyistic in the way he goes about calling out reptilians--if he says you are, you are). they need this flesh to maintain their human form.

 

now if he had confined his theory to a few people or some small closely associated group and had solid evidence such as dna, photos, films, footprints, scales, a body, medical reports, etc., i might consider it. but there is no way that a conspiracy of the size he describes can go unnoticed by everyone but him. one of these people would've morphed back into a reptile in public at some point.

 

now that doesn't make everything he says untrue, and his comments about chemtrails might be. but with him as the source i'm inclined to discount them.

 

<snip>

because one does not lead to the other. a biblical creationist would only believe that life was created on earth. and there are literally millions of people who believe just that. or don't you read the newspaper or watch tv or read the bible? there are numerous other creation myths (surprise!) that make no account of life on other planets and whose believers only believe in life on earth. secondly, evolution only provides for the POSSIBILTY of life on other planets, not the actual belief in life on other planets. the mathematidcal odds indicate that it's probably so, but no one (in mainstream science anyway) really knows that it does for a fact.

i don't act i disbelief. i've seen lots of reptiles so i know they exist. we even have fossils of reptiles that were huge and once ruled the earth in ignorant bliss of their destiny with an asteroid or some other damn thing that wiped them out. of course i believe in reptiles. but no one has ever seen a reptile turn into a human or a human turn into a reptile. not has anyione witnessed the rituals in which they eat children to maintain their human form. the evidenc eis severely lacking for this to even be a valid hypothesis let alone a theory.

i don't believe or disbelieve anything. i research and figure out what's feasible, possible or even probable. some things are known with greater certainty than others. somethings are verified by people other than the origianl proponent of an idea. that has never happened with any of icke's stuff.

things that are far more likely than icke's theory:

1. sasquatch

2. UFO's/aliens

3. loch ness monster

4. the templars and the whole solomons treasure thing

5. international banking conspiracy for world finance control

6. the naga in the mekong river

7. the sphinx was built 10,000 years before the pyramid

8. the abominable snowman

9. the existence of somthing like the illumati (they meet in the woods

in california every summer)

10. chemtrails

11. cia-drugs-oil-bush family link

12. academic suppression of some valid science, esp. in archaeology

13. commercial interests influencing scientific research

13. vast incompetence that often looks like conspiracy but is actually

preventing it (i.e.,WTC intelligence failure).

14. ronnietsu will be castrated by the dept. of health and human services

granted some of these fit under the popular heading of "specualtion." the bigger a conspiracy, the harder it is to hide. and icke puts forth a conspiracy of vast scale that only he knows about. impossible? no. very very very very very unlikely? yes.

furthermore, much of what is called conspiracy is really just professional interest: the AMA is a professional group promoting their interest but are not conspiracists against alternative medicine. they are trying to openly protect a professional interest by driding (rightlyor wrongly) a competitive alternative to themsleves. the same can be said of pharmaceutical comapnies and food additive manufacturers with the FDA. and so on.

are there creatures and beings with powers and abilities far beyond those of mortal men? probably so, even though they are not accepted by mainstream organizations. do the flies believe in the scientist who is breeding them in a test tube? could we be the same to some superior beings? could we be part of a cosmic experiment by superior beings? sure we could. does it matter? no. not if your chief pursuit is immortality. is it interesting anyway? yes.

but ther is a real psychological danger in being interested in these things and that is taht our DESIRE TO BELIEVE something adversly affects our objectivity so that we end up beilieving any damn thing that fits the paradigm we created for ourself. wqe knew a guy who loved specualtion and conspiracy and believed all the stories, even if they contradicted each other. we used to make stuff up, MAKE IT UP, tell him, and then see how long it took to get back to us from another source. i've also seen this on the internet with the dropa stones. i found 5 or 6 websites on it, all reprinting the same two stories, word for word. none of the so-called original evidence is available. so that's a story i don't give much credence to. sure it's possible, but with the current state of evidence, it's not something i'm going to accept. and i'm certainly not going to go around propagating the tale irresponsibley to gullible people. one guy believes in the dropa stoens so strongly he wrote a whole book on it based, i suppose, on those two web articles. so i ask, is he just irresponsible, or is he out to make a buck? and i ask the same thing about david icke. his soccer career is over and so he has to make a buck doing something i suppose. at least he was right about manchester united.....

the AMA and its members is out to make a buck on gullible people, and so is david icke.

[SheepishLord]

To some of you who think the US economy is strong, you need to get educated. You can start by reading the book, "Empire of Debt."

 

In short, the US has no manufacturing base any more, the entire nation and almost all the citizens are in debt with ZERO savings, and the money supply is so inflated the figures are simply no longer published.

 

To compound this problem we have something called a derivate-securities bubble. Anybody remember Barings Bank in England?

 

So now we are looking down the barrell of a double-barrelled shotgun.

 

There are no safeguards except for people's belief inthe US Dollar because it is actually worthless. One of the reasons it hasn't collapsed is that China takes all of their savings and wealth (because they make the shit we buy) and invests it back into US Dollars. They would dump them all tomorrow but then in the process of dumping they would crash the whole system and lose their investment.

 

So they've simply stopped buying. Next the are creating their own stock market and allowing their people to invest in it. Next will come a unified Asian Currency. Our only hope to control them is with food but the Chinese are smart and recently turned away a ship filled with GMO soy. GMO is all about control of nation's via the food supply. It is an NWO tool.

 

This is why gold keeps climbing and will break $2000/ounce--it is the only store of value in times like these. Take your money and invest in StreetTracks Gold (GLD) or buy assayed bars and store them somewhere.

 

Unemployment in the US is actually over 10%. The statistics are compiled in such a way that discouraged job-seekers are no longer counted.

 

The housing bubble has almost popped. Home sales have gone down except in Manhattan because capital from all over the world comes here to speculate.

 

Inside of the next 2 years interest-only mortgages and other specualtive lending instruments will come out of their grace periods. With nobody left to flip properties to, the speculators will have to pay their mortgages but will not be able to. Then the defaults will begin and crash home prices.

 

America's wealth on the consumer level is built on the artifical value of their houses which have been borrowed heavily against.

 

Really people, do some research. It is nice to talk about ideals and opportunity but these are only possible WHEN YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM!!!

[Lozen]

My parents fucked here. That's about how much sentimentality I have for this country outside of the people that I know and love that live here. On the whole I find America gaudy, crass, fundamentalist, narcissistic ... psychopathic even.

 

Sean, to be honest, those first two sentences (aside from Ron's diatribes) are the crassest I've read on this board...

 

Also find it interesting that so many people seem to be saying things like, "This country is going to collapse economically. I can't wait until I have enough passive income to leave. Doesn't that seem like an enormous contradiction?

 

Interestingly enough, I was just rereading some Allen Ginsberg the other day, his poem on America... It's right here if anyone hasn't seen it: http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=6613&poem=30487

 

The part that struck me was, "It occurs to me that I AM AMERICA" (emphasis mine)--and I see that with people I know who are leaving. They'll say things like, "I want to move to Central America, to a nice area, but then I want to make sure the housing isn't too expensive because those damn Americans have moved in. But the areas where Americans haven't moved to don't have DSL lines." Do they not realize that they ARE Americans?