America

[sean]

Sean, to be honest, those first two sentences (aside from Ron's diatribes) are the crassest I've read on this board...

 

Also find it interesting that so many people seem to be saying things like, "This country is going to collapse economically. I can't wait until I have enough passive income to leave. Doesn't that seem like an enormous contradiction?

 

Interestingly enough, I was just rereading some Allen Ginsberg the other day, his poem on America... It's right here if anyone hasn't seen it: http://www.poemhunter.com/p/m/poem.asp?poet=6613&poem=30487

 

The part that struck me was, "It occurs to me that I AM AMERICA" (emphasis mine)--and I see that with people I know who are leaving. They'll say things like, "I want to move to Central America, to a nice area, but then I want to make sure the housing isn't too expensive because those damn Americans have moved in. But the areas where Americans haven't moved to don't have DSL lines." Do they not realize that they ARE Americans?

"My parents fucked here" is actually a Bill Hicks quote in which he is making fun of patriotism. Pretty hilarious comedian, but yeah, crass. I never said the economy was going to collapse. Honestly I don't really talk or even think politics much anymore. History is one of my poorest subjects, and so I end up only being able to take philosophical positions on discussion topics. Nowadays I skim the news here and there, read a political philosopher on occassion, the idea of second tier libertarianism appeals to me, but my opinions about America are mostly aesthetic, as strange as that may sound. The visual and even emotional texture of this country just disturbs me and always has since I was a kid. Much of American architecture, the way towns and suburbs are laid out, the cookie cutter mindset behind almost everything that completely devalues art and feeling and the environment, even down to our color pallette ... gaudy saturated primary colors, even our freakin' flag is ugly, I'm sorry. God, it makes me shudder when I see Americans walking around in their flip flops, gut hanging out of a "World's Best Dad" shirt and an American flag hat. This probably sounds shallow, but I'm just trying to explain that, while I am often embarrassed of American politics, I do think it's a democratically evolved country with economic opportunities for people, hence so many people coming here. I just don't feel at home here. And yeah, maybe it's a bit of a copout to want to leave, but not really ... I respect people that like it here and think it's great if you want to stay and do your work here. There is work to be done everywhere.

 

The passions of delusion are inexhaustible.

I vow to extinguish them all at once.

 

I read somewhere about Papaji, a modern Indian sage, saying that Americans who take up a spiritual search are often more spiritually ready than people in countries like India, because people in these countries haven't witnessed the "man behind the curtain" of the images of celebrity, glamour, fortune and flatland capitalism they are exposed to ... seekers in America are close enough to the realities behind these images to see that they are illusions and that there is no happiness in them ... but from afar it looks like a paradise on Earth has been born. This is how I see much of the "coming to America" ... they don't realize that it's mostly false advertisement.

 

 

Sean

[Trunk]

Just to briefly butt in again...

 

The writings of Wendell Berry would add great breadth and depth to the view of this topic. I recommend:

The Unsettling of America and Citizenship Papers.

 

His views are too complex to put in a one-liner. But, I would say that his work is the definitive clarity on post-industrial economies (not just the corporations, but also what we do). And its not just America, applies to all modern economies.

[sean]

Just to briefly butt in again...

 

The writings of Wendell Berry would add great breadth and depth to the view of this topic. I recommend:

The Unsettling of America and Citizenship Papers.

 

His views are too complex to put in a one-liner. But, I would say that his work is the definitive clarity on post-industrial economies (not just the corporations, but also what we do). And its not just America, applies to all modern economies.

Wow, that guy is prolific, just checked out his books on amazon. You've recommended him before and I bumped into one of his books at the store the other day. I will have to check him out. He reminds me of Scott Nearing for some reason ...

 

Sean

[Trunk]

Wow, that guy is prolific, just checked out his books on amazon. You've recommended him before and I bumped into one of his books at the store the other day. I will have to check him out. He reminds me of Scott Nearing for some reason ...

 

Sean

Yup, has similarities to Scott & Helen Nearing. But his detailed description of his view (philosophy), really just observations of character, community, economy, ecology, is unmatched. Berry's descriptions will give a kind of bedrock clearing of this whole vague big bewildered what the hell are we all doing?!? sensation.

 

--- later edit ---

Berry writes both fiction and non-fiction. His fiction is just 'ok'; I don't particularly enjoy it nor find it special. His non-fiction is what I'm referring to here.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Trunk

[sean]

Berry's descriptions will give a kind of bedrock clearing of this whole vague big bewildered what the hell are we all doing?!? sensation.

Oh man, ok, I'm sold right there.

[Pietro]

the US has no manufacturing base any more, the entire nation and almost all the citizens are in debt with ZERO savings,...

 

... One of the reasons it hasn't collapsed is that China takes all of their savings and wealth (because they make the shit we buy) and invests it back into US Dollars. They would dump them all tomorrow but then in the process of dumping they would crash the whole system and lose their investment.

 

So they've simply stopped buying. Next the are creating their own stock market and allowing their people to invest in it. Next will come a unified Asian Currency. ...

 

Very interesting, thanks. I was speaking just one month ago with an american who come from a wealthy family involved from more than one generation in finance. I asked him about the possibilities of american collapsing because of china owning so many dollars. He said if china where to try to make america economy crash america would just pass one law forbidding importation from jobs that don't have some minimum wage/laws/respect for the workers and all china import would collapse too.

 

Now, I know that both china and america are in the wto. And my understanding is that such a law is against the rules of the wto. Still I don't think it would stop america. They have ignored international economical treatise (ref to medicines) before forcing everybody to rewrite them not to show that those rules are a fake, so...?

 

But the idea of china trying to get a different currency makes a lot of sense. I remember a very interesting article that would describe the war in Iraq in terms of currency. After all Iraq was selling oil in Euro. And Venezuela and Russia could switch too. This would have made the dollar much less needed in international market, permitting every nation to free all the dollars they have in their tresury, and using it back to buy things in america.

 

And of course the reason why american economy is generally going down it is also at the root of why the euro keeps raising. Europe is not doing that much good, but america is really collapsing economically at this point.

 

I mean, when Berlusconi was trying to be reelected he made some big posters that he placed all around the town. It is generally agreed that italian economy has never been so ill. Basically we had NO raise of the GDP at all. 0. If we were trying to attein sustainability that would make sense, but Berlusconi is as green as Bush, so...

 

So back to Berlusconi posters, in some of those he presented the average salary when he came to power and when he left, and the ads showed that the average salary had INCREASED!? And everybody went nuts? Increased, how come, and we feel all more poor. Then they looked at the ads better, and the average salary was not expressed in euro but in dollars. And if you make the exchange of euro to dollars with the historical rate, and the modern rate... well the average salary had actually DECREASED in euro. So by giving it in dollars, he could give a raising figure instead of a lowering figure. But people are buying things in euro, not in dollars.

 

You know what does this mean, right? It means that italian economy was going bad and not good during those 5 years... but that american economy was even worse. And knowing how bad is italy in this moment, man, that's really something! Or it is all a strategy from bush to try to keep the dollar law to get more turism, more export... it would make sense.

 

In any case the good news is that the debt of third world countries is in dollars, so if the dollar will stop being valuable, they are getting automatically our of debt.

Edited May 8, 2006 by Pietro

[Buddy]

First, the answer.

"Outside of Thanksgiving, can anyone come up with anything that all of America celebrates as its own?"

Thanksgiving? Most cultures have a Thanks giving. So the quick answer is...jazz.

But really, no need for all this alarmism. The rest of the world is upset because we have exported our culture.

But time and tide will wash all of this away. We're no worse or better than Rome, the Byzantines, the Ottomans, the Khans, The British, French or Dutch. Once the Chinese become the dominant world power everyone will bitch about them, if we're allowed to (which, by the way, we have the right to now).

[turbo]

First, the answer.

"Outside of Thanksgiving, can anyone come up with anything that all of America celebrates as its own?"

Thanksgiving? Most cultures have a Thanks giving. So the quick answer is...jazz.

 

And a damn fine answer if I say so my damn self. Jazz is incredible. I could go on for a long time but theres no sense in it.

[Lozen]

This is way old but makes interesting parallels to the article Leo posted.

 

LET'S BE PERSONAL"

CFRB 1010, Toronto, Ontario

 

Topic: "The Americans"

 

The United States dollar took another pounding on German, French

and British exchanges this morning, hitting the lowest point

ever known in West Germany. It has declined there by 41% since

1971 and this Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the

Americans as the most generous and possibly the

least-appreciated people in all the earth.

 

As long as sixty years ago, when I first started to read

newspapers, I read of floods on the Yellow River and the

Yangtze. Who rushed in with men and money to help? The Americans

did.

 

They have helped control floods on the Nile, the Amazon, the

Ganges and the Niger. Today, the rich bottom land of the

Misssissippi is under water and no foreign land has sent a

dollar to help. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain

and Italy, were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans

who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in

debts. None of those countries is today paying even the interest

on its remaining debts to the United States.

 

When the franc was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the

Americans who propped it up and their reward was to be insulted

and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

 

When distant cities are hit by earthquakes, it is the United

States that hurries into help... Managua Nicaragua is one of the

most recent examples. So far this spring, 59 American

communities have been flattened by tornadoes. Nobody has helped.

 

The Marshall Plan .. the Truman Policy .. all pumped billions

upon billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now,

newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent

war-mongering Americans.

 

I'd like to see one of those countries that is gloating over the

erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplanes.

 

Come on... let's hear it! Does any other country in the world

have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tristar

or the Douglas 107? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all

international lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does

no other land on earth even consider putting a man or women on

the moon?

 

You talk about Japanese technocracy and you get radios. You talk

about German technocracy and you get automobiles. You talk about

American technocracy and you find men on the moon, not once, but

several times... and safely home again. You talk about scandals

and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for

everyone to look at. Even the draft dodgers are not pursued and

hounded. They are here on our streets, most of them... unless

they are breaking Canadian laws .. are getting American dollars

from Ma and Pa at home to spend here.

 

When the Americans get out of this bind... as they will... who

could blame them if they said 'the hell with the rest of the

world'. Let someone else buy the Israel bonds, Let someone else

build or repair foreign dams or design foreign buildings that

won't shake apart in earthquakes.

 

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking

down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When

the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke,

nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can

name to you 5,000 times when the Americans raced to the help of

other people in trouble.

 

Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the

Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even

during the San Francisco earthquake.

 

Our neighbours have faced it alone and I am one Canadian who is

damned tired of hearing them kicked around. They will come out

of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are

entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over

their present troubles.

 

I hope Canada is not one of these. But there are many smug,

self-righteous Canadians. And finally, the American Red Cross

was told at its 48th Annual meeting in New Orleans this morning

that it was broke.

 

This year's disasters... with the year less than half-over - has

taken it all and nobody...but nobody... has helped.

 

ORIGINAL SCRIPT AND AUDIO

COURTESY STANDARD BROADCASTING CORPORATION LTD.

 

© 1973 BY GORDON SINCLAIR

[SheepishLord]

You know what does this mean, right? It means that italian economy was going bad and not good during those 5 years... but that american economy was even worse. And knowing how bad is italy in this moment, man, that's really something! Or it is all a strategy from bush to try to keep the dollar law to get more turism, more export... it would make sense.

 

Actually, there is fear that Italy will pull out of the EU and cause the whole thing to fall apart. This is because while the European countries share the same currency, their debt (in Euros) is valued at different levels.

 

-Plato

[Michael]

All,

I hate to reiterate the point, but some follow-on comments have brought up two very common misconceptions. First, anyone who thinks opportunity costs money in this country is delusional. I am a living example that it's not so. Further, I know of several "grass roots" projects (I hate that term, but it gets the point across) that are doing quite well at providing even more, and on a large scale. Again, I think some people may be confusing the politicians they so despise with the issues and opportunities themselves, and that is a mistake. Our country is full of enough opportunity that even the indigent welfare mothers can afford their own cell phones, and they feel entitled to more than most truly "poor" people can even imagine having in a lifetime. If you think opportunity costs money in this country, I suppose you're right in one respect. But that money is borne on the backs of the taxpayers, and is the prudent and compassionate gift of those who have to those who have not. If you don't think that's so, then I might recommend taking your views to the streets and the voting booths. Put people in office that will support the kind of opportunity you'd like to see. I'm all for positive change, but first comes some personal responsibility for the things you think are so screwed up.

 

Secondly, the economy. Please look into currency exchange rates and what drives them. Where's our economist for this? Please tell me if I'm off base. A strong dollar here in the US means good things for consumers. It means they can buy goods at lower "real" prices. Their dollars are worth more on the world market, and so goods come into the households cheaper when the dollar is strong. Many of us think that means a strong economy. Superficially, we're right. But deeper than that, this is in fact, a WORLD economy. Global trade is not the exception - it's the rule, the standard. Shipping, imports, exports, and the internet have made the globe a very small economic neighborhood. What does that mean in terms of my post here? It means that while a strong dollar is good for consumers, it sucks for the exporters and importers, and therefore, for the businesses that drive our economy. If it takes 5,000 notes in a foreign currency to equal a dollar, foreign buyers can't afford to buy as much as they can when their currency is worth, say, 3,000:1. Hence, foreign buyers (importers) are more likely to wait until the dollar is weaker to buy big ticket items. In a nutshell, that means that whilea strong dollar may be good for the end consumer, it is hurtful to international business. And comparatively, a weaker dollar by virtue of its value compared to foreign currencies drives up buying activity, in turn strengthening the economy all over again.

 

In other words, the cycle is self-healing. One of the wonders of capitalism. People tend to panic at the idea that their money is getting weaker, when in fact, that very cycle of strengthening and then weakening again is what makes it so strong. It's the same with interest rates. We freak out because the national debt is high, but think about it. Interest rates have been at an all-time low. You wait for interest rates to drop when buying your own big-ticket items, right? You try to find credit cards with lower interest rates, and you try to negotiate the lowest rate possible on your mortgage right? Well what happens when interest rates are through the floor? You hurry up and buy a house, a car, and whatever else you can afford to buy while the interest rates are so low, correct? What's that mean? It means you've incurred the biggest debts you'll ever have as a direct result of low interest rates. But those debts would be a lot higher if you incurred them during times of high interest rates, so you get what you need and you save money in the long term. The nation works the same way. When the World Bank decides interest is going to be low, our nation buys and buys because we can afford it better at lower rates. In other words, we build a surplus so that when rates jump up, we can lay off the buying. Low interest equals higher spending. High interest equals reductions in spending. It works that way in your household, and it works that way in government.

 

So forgive me if I've bored you to tears with my own analogies on economics. I know it's not very Tao of me. But I think that these are common enough complaints to warrant an explanation.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Michael

[Pietro]

Actually, there is fear that Italy will pull out of the EU and cause the whole thing to fall apart. This is because while the European countries share the same currency, their debt (in Euros) is valued at different levels.

 

-Plato

 

Yes, there is a serious risk that Italy will have to quit/ be thrown out of the EU. This is how bad berlusconi was. And it is the reason why I asked my friend in the first place financial questions. I wanted to know if it was safe to keep money invested in Italy or should I instead buy Bonds from other countries. You see Italy is really following the way defined by Argentina. If Berlusconi had won the elections again I would have got out of the boat, but as Prodi won who is in my opinion much better and way more Euro aimed whe might actually recover.

 

And yes, each country have it's own debt, but being in Europe requires that a country keeps its debt within certain values. Italy failed this this year.

 

Still I don't think Italy quitting is enough for the whole Europe to collapse. But in this regard it is more interesting the vote on the European constitution that was done little time ago in some countries (depending on the law of the individual country, the procedure was diffferent). It is interesting because France voted against and this slowed down unification a lot.

 

You see no one wants his culture to be destroyed, and we are dealing often with new laws that define traditional ways as unsafe. The italian cheese with worms is now no longer inside EU health standards. People are allowed to make food from a region and then label it as if it was from another region..., And on Italian highway people need to keep the light of the car on even in daytime because is sweden... (in sweden!!!) that's the law and we need to standardize with them.

 

When I was in Amsterdam my gf was against europe and I could not see why. Now I can.

Edited May 9, 2006 by Pietro

[minimoke]

To some of you who think the US economy is strong, you need to get educated. You can start by reading the book, "Empire of Debt."

 

( snipped all facts so wisely articulated in order to save space )...............

 

Really people, do some research. It is nice to talk about ideals and opportunity but these are only possible WHEN YOU CAN PAY FOR THEM!!!

 

thank you for beating me to the punch. You are so very tuned into economics. The bubbles are all there and more not even mentioned. The end is near for the simple fact that so many people think, "safe guards are in place". THERE are no safeguards.

 

Recently I am administering my "dead dad's" estate. This whole country's employment structure is ludicrious. I tried to retain workers on a part-time basis, but they would rather file for unemployment and sit at home than continue to work. So I tried to "hire" un-employed and under-employed friends I know, only to find almost without exception that they want to be paid "under-the-table" in cash.

 

The world is running out of natural resources. Oil, iron ore, precious metals, yada yada yada. The only surplus in the world is guess what? PEOPLE. The equation is only tilting one way.

 

Bruce

[Pietro]

In other words, the cycle is self-healing.

 

Would this also be true if the dollar would not be the currency of the world? After all Argentina DID collapse economically, and Italy is going in that direction, so the self healing of the system obviously didn't work at least in that one case.

 

Surely now it is a great time to buy a house in rio de janeiro... still it doesn't seem to be enough.

 

What if china produced this very strong asian currency, and the euro started to be the currency of choice to buy and sell petrol.

[Trunk]

I just found Air America online. Fun to hear a liberal host kicking ass.

 

--- later edit ---

yipes. for about 5 minutes.

Edited May 10, 2006 by Trunk

[Pietro]

Bongiorno, Pietro!

 

...

 

So, obvious American narcissism aside (and I can see it in spades right now, as I'm back in the US visiting my family til Sunday), what would you say to do about the "clueless European wussy problem," as I affectionately call it? Will the EU finally have to import some Eastern Euro mercenaries (no Serbs, please!) to defend itself, since most Western Euro men have become hopelessly feeble, and inviting American "liberators" yet again would be just too humiliating, and would rapidly accelerate the already proceeding McDonalds- and Starbucksificiation of a great, diversified civilization?

 

Maybe you think I'm paranoid in my animus against radical jihad, but just have a listen to what many imams are saying, and take a closer look at what their followers are actually doing within Europe (Theo Van Gogh, RIP), and just keep in mind that my thinking gravitates in the opposite direction of Bush and towards George *Orwell*, a lifelong socialist and secularist who knew that progressive institutions needed more than progressive cappucino-sipping chatterers to defend them. BTW, have you read Bat Ye'or's _Eurabia_ yet?

 

Finally, and apropos of this website's orientation, what do you think is the appropriate *Taoist* (or, "spiritually enlightened," or whatever label you prefer) response to radical Islamic violence? Do you really think it will all end just by distancing yourself from the US? Do you think the bikini-hating, gay-murdering Islamic fundamentalists will leave Europeans alone just becasue they claim to hate, or at least disavow, the US too? If you listen to a lot of the imams (again, not just abroad, but IN EUROPE), they openly preach of the inferiority of EUROPEAN (not just American) culture, and proclaim the goal of its conquest and subjection to sharia.

 

As I flew over Paris on my way out here, I saw all those glorious achievements and could only say to myself, "Please don't implode, Europe--get your heads out of your asses and defend all those glorious achievements that BOTH the US AND the Islamic theocracies lack." How do we make the viable third (or multiple) enlightened way(s) beyond the false choice of Jihad vs. McWorld? Something to think about . . .

 

Peace--but with a backbone and cojones,

Peregrino

 

 

Hello Peregrino,

you know that you have such a good name that when I saw it I though: Fuck I should have thought of taking that 4 years ago when I started posting on internet?

 

You ask some really good question, I will try to give you my answers.

 

First of all Democracy is not about not having cojones, but about everybody in a society having cojones in an individual way instead of few people deciding for all.

 

I was hearing a Beautiful talk from Paolo Rossi. It was taken from a discourse from Pericles. (starts from "Most of my predecessors"). The 2500 years old talk was censored by italian television during berlusconi because it contained strong affirmations like: "We don't use political power to fix our personal problems" and " and let every athenians grow a sense of individuality and the ability to face every situation, and this is why we never send away a stranger. And thus I declare Athene school of the Ellade (Grece)".

 

I think a healthy democracy is able to face and overcome the growing invasion from the muslim culture. We need laws and we need them clear and respected. But not reaching such excess that are really forgetting our roots and the democratic process that happened in those countries in the last 300 years. The problem is that democracy does not scale, and from the greek deomcracy where people would discuss on the street we have reached a big amorphous democracy of people who are more or less slave of the television. Are we surprised that those people are unable to defend ourselves?

 

But I think internet is bringing back the possibility for fruitful discussion to be there. And we should use it. I will make some examples later.

 

I shall give you now some example that I thought were healthy way of answering:

Example, think about the division of state and church. I think they got it right in France where they require no religious symbols in school. We have to be very strict about it, and stop permitting to the pope to tell us what people whould think. Clarify very well that sin and crime are different thing. As the previous generation did during ''68.

In England they require an exam of english to people who want to come and live there. It doesn't seem such a bad idea, if you want to join our society you should know about our uses and costumes. Maybe let it also include something about the costitution and why do we think what we think (example the division of state and church).

And we should stop refering to the division of state and church as being only an application of Jesus saying give to Caesar what is of Caesar, or we are effectively unrooting the whole concept.

I am not usually in agreement with this pope. In fact I think this is the first time (but he doesn't seem to mind), but lately he decided to stop the praying together with the muslim. Saying that unless the muslim accept the division of church and state there is no common ground even to pray together.

Think about the cartoon story. I think we should not have given up. No government should have say they are sorry and in case we should have closed all the embassy. It is more them wanting to keep the relations open more than us. Of course in this reasoning oil poses a problem, but their government wants the money too, so not that much.

 

In short clarifying very well what are the base of our democracy and staying precisely on that. Accepting that this might mean to divide and polarise a bit more the world. Buut still without losing balance to try to overcome the silent invasion. People who come here will be less extreme, will not have the possibility to create so much of a sub culture and by the time they are many they will have a democratic heart. Regarding imams preaching, we don't need extra laws, we need to apply the laws that are there. Inviting people to kill is "apology of crime" and a crime in itself. Public discourses from both the extreme xenofobic right and the extreme jihadist (but also extreme left) should be recorded and offered on internet and discussed on internet and on the major newspaper. The way in which a person speaks when he knows his words will reach millions of people is different if he is speaking to only his friends.

The government might even pay french philosophers and historian to explain in plain language why do we believe what we believe, how we came to believe what we believe.

 

And as Pericles sais we should... "Not see discussion as an obstacle toward democracy."

 

You see the leaders might be thinking about inviding, but most of the people who come here want to have democracy and want to have exchange of ideas. We should let their ideas and their uses propagate in our society and learn from them, and in this we will inevitably teach them the basis of democracy. We should not be afraid to test the strength of our ideas, because they have been filtered by generations of people discussing them. The people from Mexico who were protesting some days ago in the US want to be american. They have translated the american hymn, but the spirit of the hymn was kept in the translation. I saw the pictures of those peoples and although they were of latin origins I was amazed by how americans they seemed at first sight.

 

This as a society.

 

Regarding answer to Terrorists, I don't think we should consider it a war, but work against it as criminal actions, while trying to take away the ground of poverty that is feeding its plant. "Osama Bin Laden said, if we were against freedom why would we not attack Sweden". It feels starnge to think that he might be right on anything, but on this one thing I think he really is. Most of terrorism is not against our culture, is against the militar actions of our government. And the poverty that our strong economy induces. We should heal that and the symptom will disappear.

 

Now as a Taoist.

 

A taoist does not has a heart of his own but take his the heart of the people. We adapt to whatever culture is there. If there is slavery we keep slaves. If people don't keep slaves and marry at 38 we marry at 38. We don't have our set of values, except the value of finding our own value but still being able to live within the values of the community. So, just be like water.

 

 

I hope I answered your questions.

Take care,

Pietro

[Emelgee]

Lots of interesting discussion...

 

What I think:

 

Firstly, I am amazed at the hypocrisy of a nation who believes it can promote democracy in other countries when it is arguable whether Bush was actually voted in to start with. Tell me what the actual difference is between Bush's (or his people's) manipulation of the system to ensure being voted in against any other dictator who holds an election and then disregards/manipulates the results? (I am talking about the election process alone and not any other inhumane acts said dictator may have caused to happen).

 

Secondly, I find it distressing that the US country or administration can act without the support of the UN in invading Iraq. A dangerous precedent was set which really puts fear into the smaller nations about how useful the UN is as a protection from the largest power. Australia has to be so far up the US' arse for our own protection. Sure, if we don't agree the US might not invade us, but it wouldn't be a problem for them to put in trade sanctions etc to stuff up our economy completely.

 

Finally, do you really think Bush would have been voted in (if, in fact he even was) if every single citizen *had* to vote? In Australia voting is mandatory - so, I think, even if you are a "lazy" voter - as I am(!) - I am still forced to consider where this country is going and use my best judgment...except for one year when I voted for the Australian Marijuana Party!! (That time is a bit hazy for me...)

 

Sorry - I am only 30 so my knowledge of past political is limited - so I can only comment on what I have seen

 

I think it was Lozen who said the US makes the most donations or gives the largest financial assistance? I wonder if we can get some statistics on the per capita rate of donation?? I would be interested to know...

[Cameron]

The US is a great country..probably the greatest ever. Look at history and all the countries with great power how they abused it. Bush will be gone in a couple years and if you look at thoe polls most Americans(even Republicans) are sick of Bush and the milking 9/11 crap.

 

I know this may sound like crap but watch where we are in 10 years. Shit like this has to happen for the yonger generations to wake up, not just in USA but all over the world.

 

I am 30 also. Soon this will be our world then what will you say? The neocons will be dead and we either get smarter or grow stupid.

 

Cam

Edited May 14, 2006 by Cameron

[Emelgee]

The US is a great country..probably the greatest ever. Look at history and all the countries with great power how they abused it. Bush will be gone in a couple years and if you look at thoe polls most Americans(even Republicans) are sick of Bush and the milking 9/11 crap.

 

I know this may sound like crap but watch where we are in 10 years. Shit like this has to happen for the yonger generations to wake up, not just in USA but all over the world.

 

I am 30 also. Soon this will be our world then what will you say? The neocons will be dead and we either get smarter or grow stupid.

 

Cam

 

 

Ummm...I don' t agree that the US is "probably the greatest" country ever...Big, loud, full of money and loaded up with power doesn't equal a great country. But maybe you just answered your original question - the belief that America is the greatest country ever can create a sort of moral laxity that can explain away many very questionable political decisions.

 

Cam, I completely accept a person's patriotism, I am a patriotic Australian but that certainly doesn't mean that I shut my eyes to what is going on and say that in 10 years this had to happen so that things could get better.

 

The world is already my own and I have already said exactly what I think of the situation. Realistically, there isn't too much more I can do other than to promote open and honest discussion and transmission of ideas. The chances of my voting in a US election are pretty slim!

 

I also completely understand how the political climate is changing and Bush is not regarded as highly as he was previously. The frightening aspect of this, in my view, is that globally Bush hasn't been viewed very highly for a very long time yet it seems a fairly recent phenomenon in the mainstream in the US. And, lets face it, what practical difference does a low popularity in an opinion poll towards the end of his second term really make given that he cannot be voted in for a third term? The time for action was at the last election - yet he got voted in again! Why I think this is frightening is that I wonder what information has been fed to the US public that can keep people so unaware of the global realities. Perhaps another misuse of the administration's power to keep relevant information away from the everyday population?

 

All the best.

[Smile]

The time for action was at the last election - yet he [bush] got voted in again!

Not by people.

Read this:

http://www.linkcrusader.com/vote_machines.htm

http://www.rense.com/general5/vtd.htm

http://www.rense.com/vote.htm

[Cameron]

Max is right. Americans didn't want Bush reelected. I was shocked he won again as it seemed like Kerry killed him in the debates.

 

Of course the rich like Bush because they are 'his base' but that will only last for so long. Hopefully after the smoke clears people will want to take there country back and have leaders that actually represent there views.

 

Cam

 

ps .but that Karl Rove guy is a genius. He was able to tap into the religious fundamentalist who put issues like abortion and gay marriage over war.

 

I was blown away when I was sitting in class a few months ago and this girl was comparing Bush to Clinton saying "Clinton lied". She was refering to when Clinton lied about getting a blow job.

 

As sad as it is, there are probably millions of people in Amerca that think Clinton lying about a blowjob is on the same level as Bush lying about being weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. And those morally retarted idiots are alot of the problem.

Edited May 14, 2006 by Cameron

[Pietro]

I think it was Lozen who said the US makes the most donations or gives the largest financial assistance? I wonder if we can get some statistics on the per capita rate of donation?? I would be interested to know...

 

Interesting the financial situation of the third world countries is so bad that they are actually collapsing due to the interest of the debt. Essentially for each dollar the US gives there are more (about 10) that are taken away in interest. I remember reading of a help where lot's of money was allocated for a country, and essentially not one penny reached the country as they were moved from Bank A to Bank B in the same US city to cover for the growing interest of the debt. I know all this is very smoky, but if anyone is interested in the data I can contact the friend of mine who knows it all and he can fill the data in.

 

In any case speaking about 'we are the nation that gives more' is quite ludicrous in this situation. And I speak as an Italian, being Berlusconi's Italy the nation that gives less in Europe.

[affenbrot]

the picture below shows the national GNPs as anamorphotic illustration.

To me it also shows how the West sucks the energy of the whole planet.

 

 

edit: here's the picture:

Edited May 14, 2006 by affenbrot

[Peregrino]

[Cameron]

If people keep all there beleifs to themselves and don't make it a public issue we will do just fine. I think that's one of the reasons I like Taoism so much(one of many) we do our personal balance and harmony with the universe thing but for the most part arent interested in making everyone beleive any special doctrine.

 

Though probably it is in each individuals best interest to purse ba lance and harmony both for theselves and the planet.