Taoist Philosophy - Chapter 74

[Marblehead]

Be Good At Being Low

 

How did the great rivers and seas
Become the Lords of the Ravines?
The reason why rivers and oceans
Are able to be the kings of the one hundred valleys
Is that they are good at being below other things.
For this reason
They are able to be kings of the one hundred valleys.

Therefore,
In order to be the chief among the people,
One must speak like their inferior.
In order to be foremost among the people,
One must walk behind them.

Thus the Sage dwells above,
Yet the people do not regard him as heavy;
He dwells in front,
Yet the people do not see him as posing a threat.
The whole world delights in his praise
And never tires of him.
Is it not because he is not contentious,
That, as a result,
No one in the world can contend against him?!


Being Like An Inferior To People

“A distinguished man who can act as other men’s inferior is sure to obtain the following of men.”


The Great Sea


“The great sea does not object to flowing eastward (downward).”

Edited March 6, 2013 by Marblehead

[goonis38]

Hey there,

hows it it going? Beautiful and true. The great sea, is what we need to be... Mel

[Marblehead]

Hey there,

hows it it going? Beautiful and true. The great sea, is what we need to be... Mel

 

All is well here. Working too much but that is my own choice.

 

Yes, sometimes we should lay low and become as the sea.

[3bob]

Hey MH,

 

I think you have often done this in many ways at this site

 

Om

[Marblehead]

Hey MH,

 

I think you have often done this in many ways at this site

 

Om

 

Hehehe. You've noticed.

[Mark Foote]

How did the great rivers and seas

Become the Lords of the Ravines?

The reason why rivers and oceans

Are able to be the kings of the one hundred valleys

Is that they are good at being below other things.

For this reason

They are able to be kings of the one hundred valleys.

 

Nice one, M.H.!

 

"The empty hand grasps the hoe-handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still"

 

Fuxi, 5th century C.E.

 

Gotta be sink, 'til the cows come home:

[Marblehead]

 

"The empty hand grasps the hoe-handle

Walking along, I ride the ox

The ox crosses the wooden bridge

The bridge is flowing, the water is still"

 

Fuxi, 5th century C.E.

 

That still bugs my mind. Hehehe.

 

Sometimes I think I am way too much of a realist (materialist) but then I think "Being the way I am has worked for so many years, why would I want to change?"

 

How we put things into perspective (our perspective) has a lot to do with how we live our life.

 

I love Lao Tzu's paradoxes because if one takes only a moment to understand what was said one can find so much truth in what, at first view, seemed to be contradictory or utterly false.

 

But I still have a hard time viewing the bridge as flowing.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

But I still have a hard time viewing the bridge as flowing

Hi MH: I think Lao Tzu's brilliance is in the ability to present a perspective that counters our misconceptions so precisely as to leave us in a momnet of 'balance'.. we assume the water is flowing, Lao Tzu tells us the bridge is flowing, and.. for an instant, 'we don't know', then.. we start 'thinking'.. it is the instant of 'not knowing' that is the wisdom of the phrase.. the 'balance' is that it doesn't matter how we say it, it 'is' still what it 'is'..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

the water (as an analogy) is standing still because it is moving so fast that it has never left,

while the bridge is moving because it is to slow and can't catch up and stand still.

 

lol, my interpretation anyway

[Marblehead]

... Lao Tzu tells us the bridge is flowing, and.. for an instant, 'we don't know', then.. we start 'thinking'.. it is the instant of 'not knowing' that is the wisdom of the phrase...

 

Okay. This much I can buy. Nothing wrong with periodically questioning our understandings.

[Marblehead]

the water (as an analogy) is standing still because it is moving so fast that it has never left,

while the bridge is moving because it is to slow and can't catch up and stand still.

 

lol, my interpretation anyway

 

Well, I don't know how much logic there is in that but it did give me a laugh. Hehehe.

 

And then there is the saying that goes: You can never put your foot in the same water (river/stream/ocean) twice.

[3bob]

Well, I don't know how much logic there is in that but it did give me a laugh. Hehehe.

 

And then there is the saying that goes: You can never put your foot in the same water (river/stream/ocean) twice.

 

I'd like to refute that but my little brain hurts, in the meantime everybody lets do the limbo, can't get much lower than that..hehe

[Marblehead]

I'd like to refute that but my little brain hurts, in the meantime everybody lets do the limbo, can't get much lower than that..hehe

 

I haven't done the limbo in many, many years but I have gone down a few times in my life.

 

But then, those of us who couldn't do the limbo very well could always do the hokey pokey.

 

"You put your left foot in (the water). etc."

[Mark Foote]

 

I love Lao Tzu's paradoxes because if one takes only a moment to understand what was said one can find so much truth in what, at first view, seemed to be contradictory or utterly false.

 

But I still have a hard time viewing the bridge as flowing.

 

Here's Shunryu Suzuki attempting to explain the bit with the bridge, from his 'Whole-Body Zazen' lecture:

 

'The entire universe is doing zazen in the same way that your body is doing zazen. When all parts of your body are practicing zazen, then that is how the whole universe practice zazen. Each mountain and each river is going and flowing independently. All parts of the universe are participating in their practice. The mountain practice independently. The river practices independently. Thus the whole universe practices independently.

 

When you see something, you may think that you are watching something else [outside yourself]. But, actually, you are watching your mudra or your toe. That is why zazen practice represents the whole universe. We should do zazen with this feeling in our practice. You should not say, "I practice zazen with my body." It is not so.

 

Dogen-zenji says, "Water does not flow, but the bridge flows." You may say that your mind is practicing zazen and ignore your body, the practice of your body. Sometimes when you think that you are doing zazen with an imperturbable mind, you ignore the body, but it is also necessary to have the opposite understanding at the same time. Your body is practicing zazen in imperturbability while your mind is moving.'

 

That seems like some kind of explanation, and he describes something I think we can relate to (at least at times), but then he goes on the say that one should let the water flow, as that is the water's practice, and let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge. He had a license, so he showed some stinkin' badges, fine, alright.

 

 

 

Never saw the quote in Dogen, either. Might as well have been, I guess.

[Marblehead]

That seems like some kind of explanation, and he describes something I think we can relate to (at least at times), but then he goes on the say that one should let the water flow, as that is the water's practice, and let the bridge stay and sit there, because that is the actual practice of the bridge. He had a license, so he showed some stinkin' badges, fine, alright.

 

Never saw the quote in Dogen, either. Might as well have been, I guess.

 

But from the first two paragraphs it would require the river to also be flowing if it is suggested that the entire universe flows.

 

What I highlighted is what I am talking about. I do agree that when we escape physical reality we can have the water stationary and the bridge flowing. But why do that in the first place as this is only an imagined state that has nothing to do with the natural condition of things?

 

I know, I am being hard-headed, (not the first time, hehehe) but I see no purpose in imagining things that are naturally impossible. I often speak to the concept of knowing our capabilities and capacities. This concept also speaks to, not only ourself, but to other things of the universe as well.

 

It is within the rivers capability and capacity to flow - it is in the bridge's capability and capacity to remain stationary.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I know, I am being hard-headed, (not the first time, hehehe) but I see no purpose in imagining things that are naturally impossible. I often speak to the concept of knowing our capabilities and capacities. This concept also speaks to, not only ourself, but to other things of the universe as well.

Hi MH: Call it what you like.. i see simple clarity, and it is deeply appreciated..

 

Be well..

[Mark Foote]

[Marblehead]

Okay. First let me say that you have a wonderful imagination. Mine's not nearly so good.

 

 

The water is clear right through to the bottom;

A fish goes lazily along.

The sky is vast without horizon;

A bird flies far far away.

 

from Zhengjue's "The Lancet of Seated Meditation" (which Chris at Sonoma Mountain Zen Center said could be translated as "The Acupuncture Needle of Seated Meditation").

 

Now this I can 'get into'. It is reflective of a reality I am familar with.

 

There is a big difference, IMO, between imagining something that may be possible and something that just does not stand up to logical reasoning. Yep. I am a physical realist.