Law Wheel

[Mokona]

I've noticed that techniques will normally work if you put enough time in, regardless of your philosphy. Visualizations and 'techniques' are just tools. Even just following the heart will cultivate. I just speak from personal experience. Religion isn't needed, but can help some. Peace.

[Guest paul walter]

That deadly sarcasm rears its ugly head. Addicting, isn't it?

 

 

 

Well..um...yes . I plead "not fair" that all I've been left with for a reasoned argument/discussion about something as worldly as Falun Dafa's role in contemporary China are my attempts at sarcasm and bile. I'm innocent guv'ner! Paul, the Bereft.

Edited October 8, 2010 by paul walter

[Gauss]

Yes, I apologise for assuming a religious type would ever take responsibility for their "good works" of proselytising the gospel--it's all up to god (or ole Li in this case).

 

I take it you mean noone should accept the CCP's "evil arrangements" except those stuck in China without an international money and support base to keep them rolling in it? I'm sure someone of Li's stature could come to some sort of arrangement with his peers and temporary rivals in the CCP?

 

You must understand Gauss my argument isn't with tricks and practices as such its with peoople like you and Li, it's entirely personal. Best, Paul

 

Cultivation is very serious business.

 

If someone is caught by the police and taken to labour camp that happens for a reason(their attachments are the reason). Nothing is coincidental.

 

If you are handed the options of being killed or resigning your cultivation by signing a paper, what would you choose?

 

If you want to become an Arhat, can you be attached to life and death? You can not.

 

The persecution is a serious test for cultivators and it is all arranged from other dimensions.

 

I am sorry that you have personal issues with other people like me or Master Li.

 

I wish you all the best.

[Junbao]

Hi Gauss,

 

It sounds as though from your perspective things are always someones fault and it's never a question of Falun Dafa at all. I could be wrong but the way I read it was you believe that if the person is captured by police it is their karma or attachments that prompted this result? I could not tell if from there you were further suggesting that if were to come to signing a paper or death, that the person should not be attached to their life? I think if you were truly without attachments you could just sign the paper without attachment to it's meaning and then continue with your cultivation.

It seems like the problem with this thinking is that you can use the idea of attachments and karma to justify or negate almost any circumstance.

As in Seth's case, he did not like Falun Gong after a good go at it, so he must have attachments and poor enlightenment quality, and that is why he didn't get it. Another person reads the book and practices for a week and praises the practice. They must have a great enlightenment quality and a predestined relationship with Master and Falun. Ok but stick that Karma thing in your back pocket in case he quits or gets caught by police then we can just explain it away.

It's like a set-up that once you buy into it can not fail. Just like the book and exercises draw you in, and then you are told you can't really progress until you join the cause and spread Falun Dafa to the world to save sentient beings (but shouldn't those people already be coming considering their predestined relationship?) and send forth righteous thoughts and pass out flyers or be in a parade. It's not so much for the good of all people as it is exclusively for Falun Dafa. But then you are told that Falun Dafa is really the only way to save people so why fight for anything else?

 

Anyway just my thoughts this morning on this. To me it seems like a trap and does not let you think freely and that is my problem with it.

 

I do respect you very much Gauss as I think you have been nothing but kind here and have been well tempered in making your arguments. You also have a strong conviction toward what you are doing and so long as that means becoming a better person it's good with me

 

I'm not trying to change your mind or anything, just pointing out things the way they look to me.

[Aetherous]

Cultivation is very serious business.

 

If someone is caught by the police and taken to labour camp that happens for a reason(their attachments are the reason). Nothing is coincidental.

 

If you are handed the options of being killed or resigning your cultivation by signing a paper, what would you choose?

 

If you want to become an Arhat, can you be attached to life and death? You can not.

 

The persecution is a serious test for cultivators and it is all arranged from other dimensions.

 

This is delusion. Just sign the paper and continue cultivating in secret.

[ralis]

Gauss fits the true believer, authoritarian mindset. He posits the illusion of a neat little hierarchy of belief systems and Falun Dafa is the apex.

[Gauss]

I could be wrong but the way I read it was you believe that if the person is captured by police it is their karma or attachments that prompted this result? I could not tell if from there you were further suggesting that if were to come to signing a paper or death, that the person should not be attached to their life? I think if you were truly without attachments you could just sign the paper without attachment to it's meaning and then continue with your cultivation.

It seems like the problem with this thinking is that you can use the idea of attachments and karma to justify or negate almost any circumstance.

As in Seth's case, he did not like Falun Gong after a good go at it, so he must have attachments and poor enlightenment quality, and that is why he didn't get it. Another person reads the book and practices for a week and praises the practice. They must have a great enlightenment quality and a predestined relationship with Master and Falun. Ok but stick that Karma thing in your back pocket in case he quits or gets caught by police then we can just explain it away.

It's like a set-up that once you buy into it can not fail. Just like the book and exercises draw you in, and then you are told you can't really progress until you join the cause and spread Falun Dafa to the world to save sentient beings (but shouldn't those people already be coming considering their predestined relationship?) and send forth righteous thoughts and pass out flyers or be in a parade. It's not so much for the good of all people as it is exclusively for Falun Dafa. But then you are told that Falun Dafa is really the only way to save people so why fight for anything else?

 

 

 

If you are caught by the police you are bound to have done something improper(ie not considerring security issues, thinking it is cool to go to labour camp etc etc) that caused the police to react and catch you, that is common sense. Your attachments(showing off, competitive mentality, pursuit, talking too much etc etc) will cause you to do bad things.

 

That is why all cultivators seek to eliminate their attachments, to stop doing improper things that generate karma.

 

As I see it any person doing genuine orthodox cultivation(there are other orthodox schools than Dafa, I respect every one of them) never would sign such a paper no matter what were the consequences. If you are signing that paper you tell your Master that you are afraid of dieing and ready to renounce your cultivation for a worldly matter. Anyway, you can come back to cultivation but the signed paper leaves a stain on your cultivation path.

 

If you are really killed in labour camp, would you not achieve consummation after you showed that kind of determination and faith in your Master? What happened to Jesus and what were the real reasons for him being nailed to a cross being a cultivator saving sentient beings?

 

I am not saying Seth had poor enlightenment quality, I do not know him and his situation. I talked about a general situation where you have 100 million cultivators at all kinds of levels. There are conflicts between different people at different levels and some people have difficulties handling these conflicts.

 

If someone likes Dafa after one week, that does not mean he or she will succeed in cultivation, does it? That is merely a start and the journey is long and exhausting. One week means nothing although a good start is always beneficial.

 

Saving sentient beings is a personal matter, it is important but there is no absolute rule about it. How can an old person living in a remote place, meeting no people save many people? Everyone has a different character and some save a lot of sentient beings, others don´t.

 

Usually cultivators by being very good people etc let their family members see the power of Dafa and then their family members are saved since they become very positive about the practice. Also the health of the family members usually becomes stronger as the cultivation level is raised and their energy field is bigger and bigger.

 

About predestination it is said in the bible there are 200 million predestined cultivators in this world(the original deal was changed so only 100 million are allowed to cultivate as I understand it). Saving sentient beings is something different. Those people will not practice cultivation, they just like the principle of Zhen-Shan-Ren and Dafa and hence have a good future.

 

I must tell you, nobody can be recruited to Dafa. Each one that arrives to Dafa and then continues to cultivate by him/herself every day at home does it because they believe in the supernormal power of Dafa.

 

Many of them operate autonomously and cultivate completely alone. Once in a while they speak to other cultivators but the essential cultivation is done by yourself alone in everyday society.

 

Dafa has a different logics(from other dimensions) compared to everyday society. Many people analyze it as being a cult, sect, etc.

 

As I understand it Dafa offers a complete toolbox for each living being to reach other dimensions and reach their inborn potential. It is all up to you if you are prepared to do the hard work or not. Nobody will give you any Gong without you working hard on yourself.

Edited October 8, 2010 by Gauss

[Mal]

Gauss fits the true believer, authoritarian mindset. He posits the illusion of a neat little hierarchy of belief systems and Falun Dafa is the apex.

 

Very true, but I don't think there is anything wrong with that. Many/most people place their own favorite religious "ism" at the top of the pyramid. Is that really any different than interpreting the world through the precepts of science, Christianity, Buddhism, Taoism, etc...

 

However I feel it only becomes a problem/issue when the "ism's" precepts require it's practitioner to convert others to it's cause So it's nice to hear "nobody can be recruited to Dafa"

[Guest paul walter]

Cultivation is very serious business.

 

If someone is caught by the police and taken to labour camp that happens for a reason(their attachments are the reason). Nothing is coincidental.

 

If you are handed the options of being killed or resigning your cultivation by signing a paper, what would you choose?

 

If you want to become an Arhat, can you be attached to life and death? You can not.

 

The persecution is a serious test for cultivators and it is all arranged from other dimensions.

 

I am sorry that you have personal issues with other people like me or Master Li.

 

I wish you all the best.

 

 

I love you too Gauss.

But I believe Li's persecution was karmic and he has opted out of his karmic role. He doesn't need to sign a paper, the Chinese will put him away without his consent-they're easy like that. Really I can't tell what you're actually saying in all this talk at all...about karma, arhats,death, cultivation ....it seems very contradictory. So if life and death are relative to the point of being void then I do not see what the problem is with Li standing before a firing squad? Remember big guy, me hounding you and calling you a hypocrite is YOUR karma, nothing more , nothing less, so you had better work out why you're getting cosmically bitch-slapped by a nobody like me. Also, your Buddhist fetish for karma (excuses/distancing) should be modified in the light of the knowledge that there are some high cultivators that think the human world is so screwed up now that what you call karma really doesn't apply all the time anymore and that such laws are becoming hopelessly entangled in all sorts of other 'pollution'. Your karmic brother/nemesis, Paul.

 

 

 

P.S. I'm one of those types engaged in serious cultivation but you keep getting in my way and confusing me--I need to resolve attatchment to you so I consider this part of my practice.

Edited October 9, 2010 by paul walter

[Gauss]

I love you too Gauss.

But I believe Li's persecution was karmic and he has opted out of his karmic role. He doesn't need to sign a paper, the Chinese will put him away without his consent-they're easy like that. Really I can't tell what you're actually saying in all this talk at all...about karma, arhats,death, cultivation ....it seems very contradictory. So if life and death are relative to the point of being void then I do not see what the problem is with Li standing before a firing squad? Remember big guy, me hounding you and calling you a hypocrite is YOUR karma, nothing more , nothing less, so you had better work out why you're getting cosmically bitch-slapped by a nobody like me. Also, your Buddhist fetish for karma (excuses/distancing) should be modified in the light of the knowledge that there are some high cultivators that think the human world is so screwed up now that what you call karma really doesn't apply all the time anymore and that such laws are becoming hopelessly entangled in all sorts of other 'pollution'. Your karmic brother/nemesis, Paul.

 

 

 

P.S. I'm one of those types engaged in serious cultivation but you keep getting in my way and confusing me--I need to resolve attatchment to you so I consider this part of my practice.

 

My friend, I try to think about what I do and less about what others do. If I act without intention and keep calm, balanced and compassionate in my heart at all times, that means my cultivation is doing progress.

 

I am not Master Li and can not understand what his realm of wisdom is like. I very much doubt any other human being can understand it. From a common sense perspective I find it very important that he stays alive, writes more scriptures and continues to inspire his disciples worldwide to raise their levels as much as possible before the World Fa-rectification arrives.

 

 

Wish you good luck in your cultivation.

[Guest paul walter]

My friend, I try to think about what I do and less about what others do.

 

I am not Master Li and can not understand what his realm of wisdom is like.

 

 

 

 

Ok, you win (but only in the earthly realm where my patience is worn out more easily--see you guys in outer space )

 

I am not master Li either but I got a fair idea of his "wisdom" from his rants.

 

See ya Gauss, you've failed to "attract" me despite your name. Paul

[Gauss]

Ok, you win (but only in the earthly realm where my patience is worn out more easily--see you guys in outer space )

 

I am not master Li either but I got a fair idea of his "wisdom" from his rants.

 

See ya Gauss, you've failed to "attract" me despite your name. Paul

 

I am happy as long as you think Truth-Compasion-Forbearance is good in your heart. As long as you do that you will think Falun Dafa is good too, no matter what you practice.

 

Wish you all the best.

[The Observer]

I am happy as long as you think Truth-Compasion-Forbearance is good in your heart. As long as you do that you will think Falun Dafa is good too, no matter what you practice.

 

Wish you all the best.

 

Forgive my ignorance but what does "Forbearance" mean when you say Truth-Compassion-Forbearance?

[Guest paul walter]

I am happy as long as you think Truth-Compasion-Forbearance is good in your heart. As long as you do that you will think Falun Dafa is good too, no matter what you practice.

 

Wish you all the best.

 

 

 

I think I just saw the light! Thankyou!

It's little wonder I seem get more constructive input on matters of cultivation from the bactieria that lives between my toes than from people like your good self. All the best,Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

Forgive my ignorance but what does "Forbearance" mean when you say Truth-Compassion-Forbearance?

 

 

It means I think that when you encounter people like Gauss you're not tempted to chew your own arm off in frustration...?

[King Kabalabhati]

It means I think that when you encounter people like Gauss you're not tempted to chew your own arm off in frustration...?

 

Even the most advanced adepts will be tempted, however, with heaps of forbearance you avoid actually doing it.

[Guest paul walter]

Even the most advanced adepts will be tempted, however, with heaps of forbearance you avoid actually doing it.

 

 

Yes. Anyway, I suppose the thread will go the way of all threads now that I've had my 15 minutes of fun . Paul, The Half-Armed

[Mal]

Why not take a few days to consider if referring to other members as { being less constructive than} single celled organisms is the right way to "have fun"

 

Moderating

 

edit for clarification added in {}

Edited October 11, 2010 by Mal

[King Kabalabhati]

Why not take a few days to consider if referring to other members as single celled organisms is the right way to "have fun"

 

Moderating

 

Wait!

 

"I seem get more constructive input on matters of cultivation from the bactieria that lives between my toes than from people like your good self"

 

If you're referring to this, then you got it wrong IMO.

 

I'm not defending the way Paul is picking on Gauss, though G. is very provocating. I just want you to read carefully what people write before moderating.

 

Respectfully, KingK

[Mandrake]

Where in the Bible - give me exact references. I have asked for these in the past without getting any. For any cultivator, lying about what is in a holy scripture should be wrong, and avoided. Back these up or just stop name-dropping scriptures from all kinds of traditions.

 

\Mandrake

 

About predestination it is said in the bible there are 200 million predestined cultivators in this world(the original deal was changed so only 100 million are allowed to cultivate as I understand it).

[C T]

Where in the Bible - give me exact references. I have asked for these in the past without getting any. For any cultivator, lying about what is in a holy scripture should be wrong, and avoided. Back these up or just stop name-dropping scriptures from all kinds of traditions.

 

\Mandrake

Its obvious such indoctrinated information (among many other similar distortions) must have been faithfully gleaned from the guy who is the organization's top honcho- what's his name... Liu or Li was it not, and his followers are then requested not to question the authenticity/authority/legitimacy of this guy, or else their Fa bubble would pop.

 

........... ............. .............

 

 

 

@ Mal... KK is right... it looks like you have over-reacted to Paul's words, and also misread them. No disrespect intended. Just thought that action was quite harsh. Thanks for noting.

[Gauss]

Where in the Bible - give me exact references. I have asked for these in the past without getting any. For any cultivator, lying about what is in a holy scripture should be wrong, and avoided. Back these up or just stop name-dropping scriptures from all kinds of traditions.

 

\Mandrake

 

Sorry for the delay in my response.

 

The number of the army of the horsemen is given in Revelation Cptr 9:16:

 

 

Quote:

 

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

 

 

I am not inclined to lying and hope I can stay as truthful as possible at my level of wisdom.

 

The link between this number of 200 million horsemen from the Lord and the predestined number of Dafa cultivators is just my understanding and nothing official in any Dafa teachings.

 

Everyone has his own truth at his current wisdom level. Contrary to what many think the Master provides theory but you yourself must enlighten to lots and lots of things along your cultivation path.

Edited October 11, 2010 by Gauss

[Gauss]

Forgive my ignorance but what does "Forbearance" mean when you say Truth-Compassion-Forbearance?

 

Forbearance is just one meaning of Ren in the principle of Zhen-Shan-Ren.

 

Ren includes tolerance, patience, endurance, forbearance etc. The Chinese symbol is a knife and a heart. It means you should put a knife into your heart(and eliminate your karmic self).

 

Dictionary - forbearance:

 

1. The act of forbearing.

2. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience. See Synonyms at patience.

3. The quality of being forbearing.

4. Law The act of a creditor who refrains from enforcing a debt when it falls due.

 

 

At my level that means something like how big your heart is in the face of opposition. Lipworks count for nothing, real life acts are everything.

[The Observer]

Forbearance is just one meaning of Ren in the principle of Zhen-Shan-Ren.

 

Ren includes tolerance, patience, endurance, forbearance etc. The Chinese symbol is a knife and a heart. It means you should put a knife into your heart(and eliminate your karmic self).

 

Dictionary - forbearance:

 

1. The act of forbearing.

2. Tolerance and restraint in the face of provocation; patience. See Synonyms at patience.

3. The quality of being forbearing.

4. Law The act of a creditor who refrains from enforcing a debt when it falls due.

 

 

At my level that means something like how big your heart is in the face of opposition. Lipworks count for nothing, real life acts are everything.

Ahh I had a feeling but wasn't sure thanks for clearing it up.

[Jetsun]

I learned the Qigong of Falun Dafa a few years back but unfortunately it didn't have the power to bring me the healing I was searching for so I gave it up and experimented with many other systems and techniques until I found other practises which work on a much deeper level. It is ok Qigong but for me anyway there is better out there and the literature I found doesn't compare in the slightest to Buddhist texts like Santideva's guide to the Bodhisattva way of life in terms of wisdom and inspiration and is mixed up with strange claims like aliens and ancient cultures having nuclear power plants, which puts me off.