celibacy for 8 months...

[Aaron]

I'm hesitant to encourage anyone to commit to celibacy, if only because sex is a natural part of human life. I can't think of any animal that abstains from sex. Monkeys masturbate, dogs hump everything they can, and the list could get on, but you get the picture.

 

I think denying oneself sex is simply not natural. There are entire generations that have been scarred because they were taught that sex was bad, that masturbation caused angels to cry, and that giving in to your sexual urges meant you were sinful. I bought into that crap when I was younger, but somewhere around the age of twenty or so, a wise man told me, if we weren't meant to masturbate, then nature wouldn't have allowed us to grab our penises with our hands.

 

I would say, that if this is causing you anxiety, grief, and discomfort, why keep doing it? No one is going to get hurt if you masturbate. If however you do masturbate and someone dies or some natural disaster occurs, let me know, because that would certainly change my opinion about this whole topic.

 

Aaron

[Maddie]

I'm hesitant to encourage anyone to commit to celibacy, if only because sex is a natural part of human life. I can't think of any animal that abstains from sex. Monkeys masturbate, dogs hump everything they can, and the list could get on, but you get the picture.

 

I think denying oneself sex is simply not natural. There are entire generations that have been scarred because they were taught that sex was bad, that masturbation caused angels to cry, and that giving in to your sexual urges meant you were sinful. I bought into that crap when I was younger, but somewhere around the age of twenty or so, a wise man told me, if we weren't meant to masturbate, then nature wouldn't have allowed us to grab our penises with our hands.

 

I would say, that if this is causing you anxiety, grief, and discomfort, why keep doing it? No one is going to get hurt if you masturbate. If however you do masturbate and someone dies or some natural disaster occurs, let me know, because that would certainly change my opinion about this whole topic.

 

Aaron

 

I am not practicing celibacy now NOT because I think sex is bad, I am doing it in order to use all of that energy for healing purposes, and I don't plan on doing it forever either. There is no sinful/bad aspect in this.

Edited December 2, 2010 by dmattwads

[Aaron]

I am not practicing celibacy now NOT because I think sex is bad, I am doing it in order to use all of that energy for healing purposes, and I don't plan on doing it forever either. There is no sinful/bad aspect in this.

 

So my question, with utmost respect, is simply, is it working for you? Don't answer right away, think about it and let me know.

 

Aaron

[Maddie]

So my question, with utmost respect, is simply, is it working for you? Don't answer right away, think about it and let me know.

 

Aaron

 

For the goals that I had/have it is working extremely effectively.

[Fire Dragon]

[balance.]

[Fire Dragon]

[Non]

celibacy for me right now is a period of restabilization after having done all the wrong things.

[Non]

When I say celibacy I mean not masturbating. Whoops I guess that's a big one.

 

I should have stated that earlier. To me it's just no person can truly be celibate while masturbating. Celibacy means abstaining from all sexual practice right? Or is masturbation not sexual practice?

 

So, yes celibacy for me means not masturbating, and not having sex because well I haven't "got any".

 

When the time comes that there is an opportunity for sex I will not do the "wrong kind" of sex. And because I stopped masturbating it will be fine.

[Fire Dragon]

[Maddie]

Fire Dragon

 

First thing that immediately came to mind when you said that when you practice retention you get more/strange dreams is that, the Jing you are saving is rising to your upper dan tien and clearing out blockages there. Specifically the Jade Pillow which is at the back of your head where the spine enters the skull, for this is the back door of the upper dan tien, and the point on your MCO responsible for dreams and abstraction.

 

Another thing I have also noticed about the big draw vs cold draw is the same observation as you made. When I as doing the big draw I seemed to attract girls like honey does bees. Now that I do the cold draw I feel like I have turned into the invisible man lol. So the outward effect that it has is very stark, yet so is the inward effect too. When I was doing the big draw I was in a perpetual state of horniness, and now that I do the cold draw I am almost never horny. So I guess when I decide to end my celebate phase of my life I know which practice to switch to lol .

 

As far as the debate about weather celibacy is with or with out masturbation, again I don't think it has to be either or. For now that I am doing the cold draw there is no masturbation at all, as I don't have the desire to do so, and also it is not part of the cold draw practice. Of course when one does the big draw masturbation is pretty much required to stir up the jing. In both cases there is celibacy (assuming one does the big draw solo) because there is no contact with a woman, its just the two practices of celibacy have different goals and different methods.

[Non]

I have a problem with Ryan Randolph's "masturbate without fantasy" method.

 

Ideally, or in theory it should work.

 

The problem is can we Really truly not fantasize when we are having an orgasm?

 

I would imagine, that I get images in my mind as I masturbate, regardless of if I'm just keeping my mind focused on feeling. These may not be fantasy but simply my mind trying to visualize what's going on. Even so, if I keep the image of myself firmly placed in my field of vision while masturbating do I really want to? The reason why I say it seems "feminine" is for one.. the images that would appear are images of myself masturbating. Do I really want to be turned on by images of myself masturbating? Of a male masturbating?

 

Lol, sounds strange doesn't it. But I imagine that with enough time I would start to associate horniness with the image of a male masturbating, and not with the woman I desire.

 

That and well, it just seems odd to imagine touching myself.

 

Ok, so let's say I try my best NOT to indulge in any imagery that has to do with my own while masturbating. Let's say.. I just focus on pure blackness. Will I start to associate blackness with sexuality and horniness?

 

Can I just choose to focus on something external, like money? Lol will it manifest more money in my life like magick?

Edited December 2, 2010 by Non

[Maddie]

Can I just choose to focus on something external, like money? Lol will it manifest more money in my life like magick?

 

If that works let me know lol ... seriously. IMO if you don't feel ok with masturbating then don't, perhaps that is what your body is telling you, as everyone's individual needs are different. One thing that I just recently came to realize is that as I was adding my cold draw jing to my sacral charka and the blockages there were opening up, I realized how large a part guilt and shame about seuxal issues had been playing in my life and I didn't even realize it. Guilt is considered to be a sacral chakra issue and so I guess it should have come as no supprise that as I worked on that chakra that I became aware of how this issue had been effecting me. Anyways I'd say if you don't feel ok with masturbating then don't, there is nothing that says you have to do it lol. Rather use the cold draw which does not use self stimulation.

[Fire Dragon]

[Fire Dragon]

I have a problem with Ryan Randolph's "masturbate without fantasy" method.

 

Ideally, or in theory it should work.

 

The problem is can we Really truly not fantasize when we are having an orgasm?

 

I would imagine, that I get images in my mind as I masturbate, regardless of if I'm just keeping my mind focused on feeling. These may not be fantasy but simply my mind trying to visualize what's going on. Even so, if I keep the image of myself firmly placed in my field of vision while masturbating do I really want to? The reason why I say it seems "feminine" is for one.. the images that would appear are images of myself masturbating. Do I really want to be turned on by images of myself masturbating? Of a male masturbating?

 

Lol, sounds strange doesn't it. But I imagine that with enough time I would start to associate horniness with the image of a male masturbating, and not with the woman I desire.

 

That and well, it just seems odd to imagine touching myself.

 

Ok, so let's say I try my best NOT to indulge in any imagery that has to do with my own while masturbating. Let's say.. I just focus on pure blackness. Will I start to associate blackness with sexuality and horniness?

 

Can I just choose to focus on something external, like money? Lol will it manifest more money in my life like magick?

 

 

Actualy I think you hit the bulls eye, and what you describe is actually some sexual practises in western magick traditions. So you can project your sexuality to money and that will afect such issues in your life. I think there are quiet alot of those practises out there, even though I myself never counsously have practised them. More than affirmations without sexual stimulations

[Maddie]

Hello!

 

Yes it seems to be a reasnoble interpretation of why I have this dreams. I tend myself to either think psychologically, Jungian inspiered, or energetically. I have to learn to intergrate those thoughs field together to make deeper understunding of what happens with my practise. I have also noticed that the pearl in the fusion tends to want to stay longer times in the jade pillow. So for the moment I buy your explanation, ty.

 

Again I don't think that energy and psychology are really two separate things, just different perspectives of looking at the same thing, or different manifestations of the same thing. Energy affects psychology and vice versa. The way we think affects our energy, and the state of our energy affects our thinking.

[Fire Dragon]

Again I don't think that energy and psychology are really two separate things, just different perspectives of looking at the same thing, or different manifestations of the same thing. Energy affects psychology and vice versa. The way we think affects our energy, and the state of our energy affects our thinking.

 

 

Hello

 

Right you are. What I meant was that I think in a wrong way when doing this. I have to learn to see both aspects at the same time and to see both perspective, or intergrate them to one new way of looking at things. That is just my mental development that need to intergrate the two. Perhaps it is also a brother perspective of intergrating western and eastern thinking.

 

FD

[Aaron]

You know I did find something regarding being celibate in the Tao Teh Ching today. The passage is talking about a new born babe and goes as such (Wu Translation),

 

"It has not known the union of the male and the female,

Growing in its wholeness, and keeping its vitality in its perfect integrity."

 

Other than this passage, I didn't find anything else that advocates celibacy, I'm not sure if this does either, but it does seem to say that once you've known "the union" you're vitality no longer has perfect integrity. I'm wondering if the same goes for masturbation?

 

Aaron

[Non]

Actualy I think you hit the bulls eye, and what you describe is actually some sexual practises in western magick traditions. So you can project your sexuality to money and that will afect such issues in your life. I think there are quiet alot of those practises out there, even though I myself never counsously have practised them. More than affirmations without sexual stimulations

 

 

I know, that was intentional. But as for focusing on myself or touching myself while masturbating that's something I feel uncomfortable with.

 

Also, in my experience masturbation up to the pc muscle contractions leads to a blockage in that area. It makes my organs then feel inverted for a period of several weeks. It doesn't matter if it never goes all the way into ejaculation. Even if so, ejaculation is a waste if it's not meant for something creative like making a child. What else would it be useful for if expelled, food? Nice...

 

Now if there was a way to achieve orgasm without the ejaculation then yea.

 

Though in my experience, masturbatory sex magic hasn't really worked for me, because when I've focused on a girl and had many orgasms I never got it.

 

I don't believe masturbatory sex magic works, especially considering the losses it leads to in the chi, and how it actually affects the nervous system, unlike neo-tantric sexual practice with a partner or karezza.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Non

[Maddie]

You know I did find something regarding being celibate in the Tao Teh Ching today. The passage is talking about a new born babe and goes as such (Wu Translation),

 

"It has not known the union of the male and the female,

Growing in its wholeness, and keeping its vitality in its perfect integrity."

 

Other than this passage, I didn't find anything else that advocates celibacy, I'm not sure if this does either, but it does seem to say that once you've known "the union" you're vitality no longer has perfect integrity. I'm wondering if the same goes for masturbation?

 

Aaron

 

Well basically when ever you loose Jing you lessen your vitality

[Aaron]

Hello Non,

 

I see masturbation as a normal expression of sexuality. I think that there is a degree in which it can be over done and harmful, but for most people, it is perfectly normal. I have serious doubts that masturbation, even if it's once a day, could diminish enough energy to cause harm. Semen replenishes, so am I to assume the energy that's expelled takes longer to replenish than the semen, or that by hoarding that energy you can use it for some other "more noble" purpose.

 

That's my problem with this idea, that somehow having sex for any reason other than giving birth is wrong. Once you say that you're applying the same moral value to it that Christianity and nearly every other religion does, and it doesn't belong. Sex is a natural act, whether it's masturbation or done with a partner. There's nothing wrong with it and to say "it's a waste unless it's used for... making a child" seems strange to me.

 

Some of the most enjoyable times I've had in my life was making love to my wife, not because we were trying to have a baby, but because it was a chance to share something intimate and personal, participate in an act that brought us together, not just physically, but spiritually.

 

Perhaps the problem is the perception of sex. If one has never had an intimate experience with someone else, an experience that is deeply personal, not just physical, and helps to deepen that bond between two people, then it is easy to see that act as a simple release of energy, but to me, even the act of masturbation is more than the simple release of energy.

 

Masturbation is one of the activities that helps a person to develop psychologically for sex. There's a reason most men start to masturbate in their teens, and it isn't simply because it's enjoyable. Masturbation influences our sexual identity. It helps to define who were are. Fantasies are more than simply a waste of time, they help us to become who we are as sexual beings. None of this is a waste of time, but rather an intricate part of our psychological development.

 

My problem is that people seem to view sex as something dirty and sacred at the same time, when it's neither, it's a physical act. It can be deeply spiritual, but so can eating a wafer at church. The spirituality has less to do with the act and more to do with the fact that you're experiencing it with someone you love.

 

I could go on and on, but I wont bother. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just wish that the world would come out of the middle ages and let people be and do what they want, rather than try and label things according to some archaic moral process, using sin or "qi" as excuses to control the masses.

 

Aaron

Edited December 3, 2010 by Twinner

[Non]

Hello Non,

 

I see masturbation as a normal expression of sexuality. I think that there is a degree in which it can be over done and harmful, but for most people, it is perfectly normal. I have serious doubts that masturbation, even if it's once a day, could diminish enough energy to cause harm. Semen replenishes, so am I to assume the energy that's expelled takes longer to replenish than the semen, or that by hoarding that energy you can use it for some other "more noble" purpose.

 

That's my problem with this idea, that somehow having sex for any reason other than giving birth is wrong. Once you say that you're applying the same moral value to it that Christianity and nearly every other religion does, and it doesn't belong. Sex is a natural act, whether it's masturbation or done with a partner. There's nothing wrong with it and to say "it's a waste unless it's used for... making a child" seems strange to me.

 

Some of the most enjoyable times I've had in my life was making love to my wife, not because we were trying to have a baby, but because it was a chance to share something intimate and personal, participate in an act that brought us together, not just physically, but spiritually.

 

Perhaps the problem is the perception of sex. If one has never had an intimate experience with someone else, an experience that is deeply personal, not just physical, and helps to deepen that bond between two people, then it is easy to see that act as a simple release of energy, but to me, even the act of masturbation is more than the simple release of energy.

 

Masturbation is one of the activities that helps a person to develop psychologically for sex. There's a reason most men start to masturbate in their teens, and it isn't simply because it's enjoyable. Masturbation influences our sexual identity. It helps to define who were are. Fantasies are more than simply a waste of time, they help us to become who we are as sexual beings. None of this is a waste of time, but rather an intricate part of our psychological development.

 

My problem is that people seem to view sex as something dirty and sacred at the same time, when it's neither, it's a physical act. It can be deeply spiritual, but so can eating a wafer at church. The spirituality has less to do with the act and more to do with the fact that you're experiencing it with someone you love.

 

I could go on and on, but I wont bother. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, I just wish that the world would come out of the middle ages and let people be and do what they want, rather than try and label things according to some archaic moral process, using sin or "qi" as excuses to control the masses.

 

Aaron

 

i dont mean its immoral. im only talking about energetic loss.

 

but as for the moral aspect, which do u think is better? to be addicted to it or attached to sex or masturbation such that one has to risk part of himself or another just to "ease the tension"?

 

I remember somewhere reading from the book "Alien Primer" about how supposedly ETs see human beings always caught up in their vicious cycle of never ending violence and betrayal unless they learned to control their sexuality, and in fact even be confident enough to say that asexual beings are superior because they are less pleasure seeking. That most violence ends up always being about sexuality whether it's subtle or obvious, all about expansion and hoarding resources for procreative purposes, even if subconsciously.

 

Then you've got tantra and karezza (a la reuniting.info) talking about the negative effects of "normal sexuality" and how it can affect dopamine and cause it to cycle and make people feel depleted and much more irritable, causing breakups and the "coolidge effect." Taoist practices as well tell you it's depleting.

 

This is the major reason why sexuality is taught to be controlled.

 

Even the Buddha taught that one should restrain from having excess emotion, for desire begets craving and longing, which is gives rise to suffering. THis is akin to the dopamine cycling. Same with sugar cravings, addiction to cocaine, etc.

 

Sex is the most powerful drug of all. Studies on rats shown that after a rat has sex it is more inclined to seek more thrilling circumstances and even take cocaine, regardless of the risks.

 

It might have an evolutionary purpose.. in the jungle. Are we in the jungle? Further are we to compare ourselves to other animals simply because taoists say that we should look to the animals? We should, but not follow their every move. Have we forgotten the Human animal? Aren't we animals too? What about asexual species. but even so animals do practice their own form of retention, or conservation. Bonobo chimps have sex all the time yet rarely ejaculate, and the females dominate and use sex to calm tension in bonobo society. The other chimps on the other hand ejaculate all the time, rape their females, have territorial wars, are more frequently cannibals, and I think also eat meat. This may also be in a large part due to their evolution as bonobo's didn't have to compete with gorillas for food, and had access to ground food. They can walk upright because of this.

 

So yea.. sexuality can be a blessing and a curse. Best use it to the fullest potential and not have it hold us back.

There's a reason why major religions all in some form practiced moderation of sexuality. Passions and lust can get in the way of things if not checked. It is human emotion, not intuition, or even gut instinct. Emotions of the Old mammalian brain, which can and does filter logic and can cause problems if not checked.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Non

[Aaron]

i dont mean its immoral. im only talking about energetic loss.

 

but as for the moral aspect, which do u think is better? to be addicted to it or attached to sex or masturbation such that one has to risk part of himself or another just to "ease the tension"?

 

I remember somewhere reading from the book "Alien Primer" about how supposedly ETs see human beings always caught up in their vicious cycle of never ending violence and betrayal unless they learned to control their sexuality, and in fact even be confident enough to say that asexual beings are superior because they are less pleasure seeking. That most violence ends up always being about sexuality whether it's subtle or obvious, all about expansion and hoarding resources for procreative purposes, even if subconsciously.

 

Hello Non,

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about now. I'm not talking about sex addictions, I'm talking about a normal man masturbating, no addiction added to the mix. You seem to be taking a very small minority of men and adding their condition as a general condition for all men.

 

Nothing you cited changed my mind, simply because they're all religious organizations that derive some degree of benefit from controling their members sexuality. If you control one of the most basic functions of being human, then you control the human.

 

I came upon this conclusion, that sex is simply a physical act, that it is not inherently good, nor bad, after dropping preconcieved moral conclusions others had placed on it and examining it objectively. After I figured that out I had to ask myself, then why would they see this as bad? After much thought I realized it was a way of controling people. Control their base desires, you control them, easy as pie.

 

Anyways, I'm making a point, just because everyone has told you something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. "Must I fear what others fear? What abysmal nonsense is this?"

 

And also, sex is only linked to violence because violent men have linked it. Sex is about passion. Some people feel violence, drugs, sports, and numerous other things are about passion also, this doesn't mean that they're linked, just that these activities inspire similar emotional responses.

 

 

Aaron

 

edit- On the logic comment... Tao has nothing to do with logic. If you think you're going to become aware of the Tao by doing away with emotion, then you're in for a surprise.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Twinner

[Maddie]

Hello Non,

 

I have serious doubts that masturbation, even if it's once a day, could diminish enough energy to cause harm. Semen replenishes, so am I to assume the energy that's expelled takes longer to replenish than the semen, or that by hoarding that energy you can use it for some other "more noble" purpose.

 

From a TCM point of view there are specific guidlines as to how often a man can safely ejaculate, and it varies by age and health. The jist of it goes that a teenager can pretty much safely do it daily, a man in his twenties ever other or every few days, thirties a couple timea a week, fourties every once a week if not less, fifties once every couple weeks, sixties once a month, and older than that should not at all. Traditional Chinese Medicine is a very old science (much older than western medicine) and has had thousands of years to be tested and validated.

 

The thing is that yes semen does regenerate, but one must ask where does it come from? Since sperm has the power to make life, and a life with a soul is a very powerful thing, then it stands to reason that sperm carry a very powerful energy. This life giving energy is called Jing. We have two sources of jing, one is pre-natal and this is what we recieve from our parents, and it can not be added to. The second source of jing is post-natal and this is what we make from the food we eat and the air we breath. Ideally we try to draw upon our post natal jing and not use up our pre-natal jing. Doing Qigong is one excellent way of building up our post-natal jing. Our body uses our jing to make sperm (or ova for women). If we don't over do it then our body can mostly use post-natal jing to make sperm. But if we ejaculate past our capasity to replenish our post-natal jing, then our body has to dip into our pre-natal jing and this is where get get into trouble, because once we burn up too much pre-natal jing we age and have health issues, and once it is all gone we die.

 

As to its morality, I think that is a very subjective debate, for each one of us has unique moral standards. If for one of us masturbation does not violate our personal convictions then for us it is not immoral. Yet for those of us who feel that somehow masturbation is wrong (regardless of the resons) then we are violating our own morality and now feel guilty and shameful, and thus it is better for those of us who feel that it is bad to not do it. Though I will say that if one tends to feel guilt and shame very easily then perhaps they might want to determine why it is that they feel this way. Inappropriate guilt and shame are very often sacral and solar plexus chakra issues. I have found that running my MCO through these areas has done wonders for me in helping with this area of my life, as well as Bach flower remedies.

[Enishi]

On a purely physical level sperm/semen has tons of nutrients as well.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Enishi