celibacy for 8 months...

[Aaron]

Hello dmattswad,

 

That's the problem I find, people are applying absolutes to sex. It isn't good or bad, it simply is. Just because someone tells you it's one thing doesn't make it so. My point is that, if you simply listen and never question, then you are blindly following something. There is a degree of faith required in any spiritual practice, but before one follows a spiritual practice they should first question that practice.

 

We are taught by our parents, teachers, and religious authorities what is right and wrong. Often times we never question this, even if we might abandon the religious practices of our youth, simply because we assume that what we've been taught is right. If we examine the true nature of the lessons we've learned oftentimes what we see is a motivation for those lessons that transcend mere morality and delve more into an issue of social conformity. Conformity that is motivated by a desire to influence how people behave. If you can influence the most basic instincts that exist within man, make them question the nature of these instincts, and control how they use these instincts, then you can control how they behave within society. Simply accepting something because it feel "wrong" isn't enough, one must look at it and see it for what it is.

 

If we remember Chapter Two of the Tao Teh Ching, then we should also remember that applying an absolute label to something doesn't necessarily make it true. If all the world sees an aspect of sex as wrong then that in itself is wrong. There are certain things we are encouraged to question. I think this is one of them.

 

Aaron

Edited December 3, 2010 by Twinner

[Non]

Hello Non,

 

I'm not sure what you're talking about now. I'm not talking about sex addictions, I'm talking about a normal man masturbating, no addiction added to the mix. You seem to be taking a very small minority of men and adding their condition as a general condition for all men.

 

Nothing you cited changed my mind, simply because they're all religious organizations that derive some degree of benefit from controling their members sexuality. If you control one of the most basic functions of being human, then you control the human.

 

I came upon this conclusion, that sex is simply a physical act, that it is not inherently good, nor bad, after dropping preconcieved moral conclusions others had placed on it and examining it objectively. After I figured that out I had to ask myself, then why would they see this as bad? After much thought I realized it was a way of controling people. Control their base desires, you control them, easy as pie.

 

Anyways, I'm making a point, just because everyone has told you something is wrong, doesn't make it wrong. "Must I fear what others fear? What abysmal nonsense is this?"

 

And also, sex is only linked to violence because violent men have linked it. Sex is about passion. Some people feel violence, drugs, sports, and numerous other things are about passion also, this doesn't mean that they're linked, just that these activities inspire similar emotional responses.

 

 

Aaron

 

edit- On the logic comment... Tao has nothing to do with logic. If you think you're going to become aware of the Tao by doing away with emotion, then you're in for a surprise.

]

 

Yes, it is true that many traditions had used the control of sexuality to control others. Like brahmacharya in the hindu traditions. Many of the elites use brahmacharya against their disciples, used it to control them. But also, brahmacharya was only meant for those in the bakti tradition. Ie devotion.

 

Normal masturbation IS what Im talking about. NOrmal sexuality IS what Im talking about. Normal masturbation and sex IS addictive. That's why taoists developed other methods.

 

the natural inclination is craving. it has an evolutionary purpose. if unchecked it will cause problems/suffering. thats what the buddha taught.

 

reuniting.info has all the research on that.

Edited December 3, 2010 by Non

[Non]

again im not saying its immoral to ejaculate ormasturbate but one does have to consider the effects each of these has on the body and just how easy it is to mess it up.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Normal masturbation IS what Im talking about. NOrmal sexuality IS what Im talking about.

 

What is normal? What is the standard you are using in order to create such a concept?

 

There are TONS of variations in methods and traditions, and even within those traditions, tons of variations, and even among people, TONS of variation, and even in one person, TONS of variation from day to day (do you eat the same thing every day? What is a "normal" food for you?)

 

Don't get so hung up on concepts of normal, because normal just flat out doesn't exist.

 

However, creation of a "normal" IS a key strategy in marketing, public policy, control of populations/individuals, etc etc. So be careful.

 

Normal masturbation and sex IS addictive. That's why taoists developed other methods.

 

EVERYTHING can be addictive!

[balance.]

]

 

Yes, it is true that many traditions had used the control of sexuality to control others. Like brahmacharya in the hindu traditions. Many of the elites use brahmacharya against their disciples, used it to control them. But also, brahmacharya was only meant for those in the bakti tradition. Ie devotion.

 

Normal masturbation IS what Im talking about. NOrmal sexuality IS what Im talking about. Normal masturbation and sex IS addictive. That's why taoists developed other methods.

 

the natural inclination is craving. it has an evolutionary purpose. if unchecked it will cause problems/suffering. thats what the buddha taught.

 

reuniting.info has all the research on that.

 

It was always my sense that the taoists developed their methods so that they could integrate their more base desires into a system/world-view that allowed them to have their cake and eat it too... You don't hear taoists saying that the body should be denied or that emotions should be stifled... These are things that need to be worked with and balanced, not cut off, forsaken and denied... I've always thought our personal problems are things we needed to come face to face with as opposed to just holding them at arms length, thinking we're making progress... I think we need to embrace the things in ourselves that we fear, detest and fret over the most instead of setting up a quarantine... How else are we to make changes for the positive if not through the pursuit of unity and acceptance?

 

Sex is natural and beautiful, and when practiced in the right way with the proper state of mind, it is balancing, energizing and uplifting... Not to mention that you and your lover have an opportunity to embody and express the unity of heaven and earth.... Why would you want to deny yourself this? Few things have the potential to be so beautiful.

 

... and as Sloppy pointed out, you can indeed be addicted to anything... Even things that are considered to be healthy and beneficial can begin to fuck with you if you don't exercise moderation... Even cultivation can be pursued with so singular a mind that we loose track of the important things going on within this sphere... We run the risk of ostracizing friends, family, and lovers by living only on our zafus... As much as meditation can open you up, it blows my mind how easy it is to forsake everything else.... eventually we may find ourselves completely alone (see the thread on the hazards of cultivation) if we don't risk embellishing our impulses from time to time, and always shy away from intimacy because we worry more about our retention practices than forging connections with another human...

 

You can talk on and on about resisting the baubles of this world because buddha said this and that.. but what it comes down to is that if you are always resisting these things, and not letting go of them, then your worse off than you were before. If you are always choking down your cravings as opposed to either letting them express themselves or just allowing them to pass through you, then you're causing yourself problems... If retention can't be integrated healthily into an individuals lifestyle, then it shouldn't be done at all. If you're gritting your teeth and chomping at the bit the entire time you're bottling up your essence, then thing are going to get rough...

 

And from where I'm standing, Non, (and forgive me for saying as I could be entirely wrong) you really don't seem to be taking the extended celibacy grind particularly well... So maybe consider allowing yourself to indulge in some release... You may find it surprisingly balancing... When our actions are in balance, we will always be moving forward... When we choose instead to court excess and deficit, we will always find ourselves running into problems.. if retaining doesn't make you feel good.... you oughta consider pulling the plug.

 

 

I wish you all the best, Non, truly.. and again, I apologize if my assessment of your behavior was wrong.. Passing judgment on folk based solely on their taobums posts is a risky and inaccurate business.

 

 

 

 

best.

 

 

 

balance.

Edited December 4, 2010 by balance.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Yes, non, perhaps you should begin by learning about the underlying mechanisms that surround things such as obsession, addiction, depression, loneliness, or whatever, rather than focusing on the surface causes (addiction to food, sex, feelings of being ostracized by society, etc etc).

 

I picked up a book on abnormal psychology, and found that a lot of the problems I were dealing with which I thought were just idiosyncratic quirks were really mild forms of OCD. I had never had a problem big enough to ruin my life, nor warrant a trip to a doctor, but I saw that some of the things I was doing were (literally) textbook cases of certain psychological functions.

 

Once I understood that, and I understood the clear steps to fix it, the problems really did resolve themselves. Most of my problems came about because I didn't know what was happening, and I was relying on trial and error, looking in the wrong places, etc etc.

 

So learn the mechanisms, because these things can show up to cause problems in a wide spectrum of areas.

[Non]

What is normal? What is the standard you are using in order to create such a concept?

 

There are TONS of variations in methods and traditions, and even within those traditions, tons of variations, and even among people, TONS of variation, and even in one person, TONS of variation from day to day (do you eat the same thing every day? What is a "normal" food for you?)

 

Don't get so hung up on concepts of normal, because normal just flat out doesn't exist.

 

However, creation of a "normal" IS a key strategy in marketing, public policy, control of populations/individuals, etc etc. So be careful.

 

 

 

EVERYTHING can be addictive!

 

 

Ok, then, what's normal according to western culture then? I live in the USA.

[Non]

It was always my sense that the taoists developed their methods so that they could integrate their more base desires into a system/world-view that allowed them to have their cake and eat it too... You don't hear taoists saying that the body should be denied or that emotions should be stifled... These are things that need to be worked with and balanced, not cut off, forsaken and denied... I've always thought our personal problems are things we needed to come face to face with as opposed to just holding them at arms length, thinking we're making progress... I think we need to embrace the things in ourselves that we fear, detest and fret over the most instead of setting up a quarantine... How else are we to make changes for the positive if not through the pursuit of unity and acceptance?

 

Sex is natural and beautiful, and when practiced in the right way with the proper state of mind, it is balancing, energizing and uplifting... Not to mention that you and your lover have an opportunity to embody and express the unity of heaven and earth.... Why would you want to deny yourself this? Few things have the potential to be so beautiful.

 

... and as Sloppy pointed out, you can indeed be addicted to anything... Even things that are considered to be healthy and beneficial can begin to fuck with you if you don't exercise moderation... Even cultivation can be pursued with so singular a mind that we loose track of the important things going on within this sphere... We run the risk of ostracizing friends, family, and lovers by living only on our zafus... As much as meditation can open you up, it blows my mind how easy it is to forsake everything else.... eventually we may find ourselves completely alone (see the thread on the hazards of cultivation) if we don't risk embellishing our impulses from time to time, and always shy away from intimacy because we worry more about our retention practices than forging connections with another human...

 

You can talk on and on about resisting the baubles of this world because buddha said this and that.. but what it comes down to is that if you are always resisting these things, and not letting go of them, then your worse off than you were before. If you are always choking down your cravings as opposed to either letting them express themselves or just allowing them to pass through you, then you're causing yourself problems... If retention can't be integrated healthily into an individuals lifestyle, then it shouldn't be done at all. If you're gritting your teeth and chomping at the bit the entire time you're bottling up your essence, then thing are going to get rough...

 

And from where I'm standing, Non, (and forgive me for saying as I could be entirely wrong) you really don't seem to be taking the extended celibacy grind particularly well... So maybe consider allowing yourself to indulge in some release... You may find it surprisingly balancing... When our actions are in balance, we will always be moving forward... When we choose instead to court excess and deficit, we will always find ourselves running into problems.. if retaining doesn't make you feel good.... you oughta consider pulling the plug.

 

 

I wish you all the best, Non, truly.. and again, I apologize if my assessment of your behavior was wrong.. Passing judgment on folk based solely on their taobums posts is a risky and inaccurate business.

 

 

 

 

best.

 

 

 

balance.

 

again the only reason why I'm practicing non-masturbation/celibacy is because I haven't gotten a sex partner.

 

And really the whole "downside of cultivation" is really just the fact that for one the rest of society isn't actually a healthy society, and two the society doesn't tolerate cultivators so they must isolate themsleves from the world.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Non

[Sloppy Zhang]

Ok, then, what's normal according to western culture then? I live in the USA.

 

I live in the US- and there is STILL no normal! That's the point!

 

If I were to ask you, "non, what's normal for you?" That would be such a broad question that it'd be impossible to answer. Even if I narrowed it down, "non, what's normal eating habits for you?" And you'd probably just give a list of foods you eat the most. But that's not really "normal", it's just a list of your particular habits. It doesn't mean anything. If you take a sandwich to work with you, and you work Mon-Fri, does that mean you are addicted to sandwiches? No, it just means that given your work schedule, you eat sandwiches.

 

Now let's say you quit your job, so you stop eating sandwiches, as you have time to prepare more elaborate foods. Are sandwiches now "abnormal" for you? Not really, they just aren't habitual any more, so don't occur as frequently.

 

Stop trying to be "normal", stop trying to find "normal". Just act as the situation unfolds.

 

again the only reason why I'm practicing non-masturbation/celibacy is because I haven't gotten a sex partner.

 

No offense, but that kind of reason for practice is not very constructive- it'll just lead to failure and frustration (some of which you tend to hint at in your posts). If you are practicing celibacy, it should be because that's what you feel you need to do. Even if a great woman came along and said, "non, I want you", if you really wanted to practice celibacy, you'd say, "sorry, I don't think that's right for me at the moment." If you are practicing it just because you don't have an alternative..... i don't see good things coming out of that. Sorry.

 

And really the whole "downside of cultivation" is really just the fact that for one the rest of society isn't actually a healthy society, and two the society doesn't tolerate cultivators so they must isolate themsleves from the world.

 

Now this is something that I disagree with.

 

Spiritual development should help you be able to relate to different people better, in my humble opinion and in my experience.

 

Sure, I went through a phase when I was like, "ah, nobody does what I do, ah, I'm so alone, ah, everyone is a horrible person, ah, I can't relate to anyone". And then I thought, well, if I'm practicing a system that reveals actual, universal truth, if I am cultivating an ability to know what is real, if I am working on compassion, if I am working on getting to know myself- then won't that help in meeting others?

 

And do you know what? It did.

 

As soon as I dropped all the crap of "oh no one will ever understand me" or "I'll never be able to connect with anyone", and instead just met people, and enjoyed who THEY were rather than what I wanted them to be, I started to connect much more easily, much more consistently, and much more enjoyably.

Edited December 4, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Yae]

I dunno if anyone mentioned that celibacy might have a more tangible effect if you also practice mind celibacy. Then you're cutoff for REAL.

 

The Chinese symbol for "qi" also means "no fire". When we stop spending our fire energy on outer sexy things, and turn our focus to our own experience and feelings, and the joyous aspects of them, we nurture and begin to awaken the "governing fire", the internal heat.

 

Someone on taobums has a post about celibacy and the really cool things they experienced with mind celibacy in the equation.

[Rara]

 

This is undobtably a self esteem problem. Listen , I get the impression we think alike, beside the female problem part. Don't get me wrong I'm into celibacy, I also think it's a great thing, but nothing is stoping me from getting to know women, flirt, date, it's all about the frame of mind that comes from self esteem. And it's enjoyable.

 

I confess that some time ago I also used to have self esteem problems, it's very common in today's society, sadly. The so called fix that I discovered is that "the little things make big things happen", look into yourself what is/are the root/roots of the problem.

 

The part with no girl wants to meet you is completely wrong, it's absolutely absurd. We are all great each and every one of us, that includes you. Confidence ... you got it when you aren't looking for it, don't doubt it you have it. Another thing, if you know you got some problems, beeing totally honest with yourself, don't delay getting them fixed.

 

Good luck

 

P.S. Such big changes don't happen over night, they are just like meditation, they require work. http://www.thetaobums.com/public/style_emoticons/#EMO_DIR#/smile.gif

Finally, some sense.

 

@Non , can you explain why you are doing this? Do you know what the pros of celibacy might be or do you just like the idea of it as some form of escape from the norm? Do you want girls to like you? Do you want a relationship, or a family? Is sex dirty to you? Is sex without climax the way?

 

Whatever your answer, celibacy is dangerous for you mentally AND physically unless you have a specific reason and method at doing it healthily.

 

The OP is clearly confused on this matter and using speculation. Don't tell yourself no girl will be interested in you, that's just disrespectful to yourself. If, alternatively, you don't like girls or the idea of having a relationship or sex, just be honest with yourself.

 

Edit: Ugh, then I realise the thread is 4 years old.

 

Still, my point above still stands for anyone with this complex

Edited September 30, 2014 by Rara

[GrandmasterP]

I wonder if he's still celibate?

That would make it four years and eight months by now.

I'm guessing.

NOT.

 

Edited September 30, 2014 by GrandmasterP

[Rara]

I wonder if he's still celibate?

That would make it four years and eight months by now.

I'm guessing.

NOT.

 

I think he will have combusted by now.

[GrandmasterP]

Married with kids I bet.