Do people get what they deserve?

[Non]

I was thinking about this earlier today. I think the answer to the question depends on one's definition of what exactly it is to deserve something, and what is being deserved. What is getting what one deserves?

 

Obviously.. there are people that believe without a doubt people get what they deserve.. all the time. It's possible if you think of deservingness as simply what you see is what you get. Or, what you get is by default what you deserve because by the "laws of nature" you have been given what you have dominion over, what you have achieved thus far all your efforts. Therefore, what you deserve is simply, what you get.

 

Is it really this way? You get what you are, or vice versa? Is it always this way? Is everything justified?

 

Does the opinion differ from gender to gender? or How can it?

 

Maybe this is not the way you think of deservingness. Who sets the rules, who decides whether something is worthy enough to deserve something? Is it even based on worth when you put the "law of attraction" in the picture?

 

What if, not everyone has taken advantage of the law of attraction? What if it might take some more time than others to achieve what is deserved? Or does it happen right away?

 

Is it possible that not all people get what they deserve? At least instantaneously?

[King Kabalabhati]

I don't know about deserving, maybe it's impossible to know that, but it may be useful to OWN what you get. By this I mean taking responsibility, like "stand back everyone, this is between me and the universe".

[manitou]

Maybe it isn't so much getting what we deserve (which implies a sort of karmic judgement)but instead we are manifesting exactly what we need at the moment. Maybe we are the creator and we manifest from the fire within. Is it possible we manifest the lessons the soul knows it needs to achieve ultimate enlightenment?

[Non]

I don't know about deserving, maybe it's impossible to know that, but it may be useful to OWN what you get. By this I mean taking responsibility, like "stand back everyone, this is between me and the universe".

 

 

Yes but what if you are doing what you're supposed to and still don't get what is supposed to be a natural consequence?

[thelerner]

From my experience and perspective I'd say no. Looking at it from a historical perspective I'd also have to answer no. Dropping what you'd like to believe and the lense of philosophy you come up with no. Especially if the question is rephrased as Do ALL people get what they deserve?

 

To think otherwise is IMO to do semantic twisting and not be willing to call shit shit and suffering suffering.

 

Course my perspective is by definition subjective and my experience limited, so on levels beyond the tic toc mundane..maybe..but we spend a hell of a lot time in the tic toc world and thats a lot of suffering to accounted for.

 

 

Michael

[Birch]

In a word: No.

 

Mysticism aside (I have nothing against it BTW) - I consider "deserving" to be a human (ego?) invention to explain events to oneself (or to have them explained to oneself, which is where the trouble starts IMO).

 

Better IMO (and small experience) to delve into the "what is happening" of things and put the "what I'm saying about what is happening" component aside for a minute.

 

This includes all judgement of "deserving" or otherwise. The "what I'm saying about what is happening" may (does?) have it's construction in past "what is happening"s which might or might not have a bearing on the current "what is happening"

 

I think Buddhists (Zen?) tend to say "nothing is happening" because of this. I think Taoists don't bother with that and look at the signs of "what is happening" to make a call on whether it's "shit or candy".

 

An experiment could be to change the "what is happening" discourse. See what happens with that. With that in mind, I don't believe people "deserve" anything. Good or bad. But I still use it on myself to pep up the bad moments and to add shine to the excellent ones.

[LBDaoist]

I think that we get what we create. Our own internal mental state and spiritual state of being determines our place in life. For example if a person spends their life stressed out, anxious and angry, they are going to drive away people who are calm and collected.

[Mal]

[zanshin]

there would have to be reincarnation, no, not in this lifetime, not coming around

[Encephalon]

RESOLVE

 

Banish uncertainty.

Affirm strength.

Hold resolve.

Expect death.

 

 

Make your stand today. On this spot. On this day. Make your actions count; do not falter in your determination to fulfill your destiny. Don't follow the destiny outlined in some mystical book: create your own.

 

Your resolve to tread the path of life is your best asset. Without it, you die. Death is unavoidable, but let it not be from loss of will but because your time is over. As long as you can keep going, use your imagination to cope with the travails of life. Overcome your obstacles and realize what you envision.

 

You will know unexpected happiness. You will know the sorrow of seeing what is dearest to you cut down before your eyes. Accept that. That is the nature of human existence and you have no time to buffer this fact with fairy tales and illogical explanations.

 

Each day, your life grows shorter by twenty-four hours. The time to make achievements becomes more precious. You must fulfill everything you want in life and then release your will upon the moment of death. Your life is a creation that dies when you die. Release it, give up your individuality, and in so doing, finally merge completely with the Tao.

 

Until that moment, create the poetry of your life with toughness and determination.

- 365 Tao / Daily Meditations - Deng Ming-Dao

[Mal]

RESOLVE

 

Banish uncertainty.

Affirm strength.

Hold resolve.

Expect death.

 

 

Make your stand today. On this spot. On this day. Make your actions count; do not falter in your determination to fulfill your destiny. Don't follow the destiny outlined in some mystical book: create your own.

 

Your resolve to tread the path of life is your best asset. Without it, you die. Death is unavoidable, but let it not be from loss of will but because your time is over. As long as you can keep going, use your imagination to cope with the travails of life. Overcome your obstacles and realize what you envision.

 

You will know unexpected happiness. You will know the sorrow of seeing what is dearest to you cut down before your eyes. Accept that. That is the nature of human existence and you have no time to buffer this fact with fairy tales and illogical explanations.

 

Each day, your life grows shorter by twenty-four hours. The time to make achievements becomes more precious. You must fulfill everything you want in life and then release your will upon the moment of death. Your life is a creation that dies when you die. Release it, give up your individuality, and in so doing, finally merge completely with the Tao.

 

Until that moment, create the poetry of your life with toughness and determination.

- 365 Tao / Daily Meditations - Deng Ming-Dao

+1,000x10¹⁰

[Taomeow]

[King Kabalabhati]

RESOLVE

 

Banish uncertainty.

Affirm strength.

Hold resolve.

Expect death.

 

 

Make your stand today. On this spot. On this day. Make your actions count; do not falter in your determination to fulfill your destiny. Don't follow the destiny outlined in some mystical book: create your own.

 

Your resolve to tread the path of life is your best asset. Without it, you die. Death is unavoidable, but let it not be from loss of will but because your time is over. As long as you can keep going, use your imagination to cope with the travails of life. Overcome your obstacles and realize what you envision.

 

You will know unexpected happiness. You will know the sorrow of seeing what is dearest to you cut down before your eyes. Accept that. That is the nature of human existence and you have no time to buffer this fact with fairy tales and illogical explanations.

 

Each day, your life grows shorter by twenty-four hours. The time to make achievements becomes more precious. You must fulfill everything you want in life and then release your will upon the moment of death. Your life is a creation that dies when you die. Release it, give up your individuality, and in so doing, finally merge completely with the Tao.

 

Until that moment, create the poetry of your life with toughness and determination.

- 365 Tao / Daily Meditations - Deng Ming-Dao

 

I understand this, but then I don't. Death is a great neutralizer. It doesn't necessarily make any difference whatsoever if we live with this kind of great "cease the day"-attitude. These kind of important sounding words have a very empty ring to them. Which is the Tao I think

[Mokona]

I think the chances of me running into two people I know from the same past life, then the events that followed have to be a billion to one, unless something else is at work. just IMO and I wouldn't know if it should be called divine will, or what - but it sure took the "Heaven and Hell" out of the Christians bugging me. lol.

 

Edit: So do people get what they deserve? I don't think so, i'm sure plenty of other people should be lucky enough or deserve the same experience. But maybe more people do have this sort of thing happen and I just don't hear about it.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Mokona

[Taomeow]

I think the chances of me running into two people I know from the same past life, then the events that followed have to be a billion to one, unless something else is at work.

 

I dunno, but I was just reading Edgar Cayce's biography (didn't pay much attention to his stuff before, but apparently he was in touch with something "not of this world" for real, according to this particular biographer, who knew him well and personally for a bunch of decades -- the book is from the 40s) --

 

so, according to Cayce's "readings," people reincarnate in whole groups, whole families, whole nations, whole races -- there's personal karma and also family karma, national, racial, etc. -- so that's why chances to run into someone from a past life of yours in this one apporximate 100%. But, like I said, I dunno... seems to make sense though. You personally may not have done anything wrong, but someone had to come to this continent to kill 99% of its native inhabitants... so this has to be paid for. If you choose to be white in this reincarnation, you choose to pay some of that. We're all a bit like Jesus in this respect, according to Cayce's supernatural sources -- we take on some of the karmic burdens voluntarily, because "not man and not God but the natural law demands an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

[Encephalon]

I understand this, but then I don't. Death is a great neutralizer. It doesn't necessarily make any difference whatsoever if we live with this kind of great "cease the day"-attitude. These kind of important sounding words have a very empty ring to them. Which is the Tao I think

 

The third paragraph answers the question of this post -

 

You will know unexpected happiness. You will know the sorrow of seeing what is dearest to you cut down before your eyes. Accept that. That is the nature of human existence and you have no time to buffer this fact with fairy tales and illogical explanations.

[Mokona]

I dunno, but I was just reading Edgar Cayce's biography (didn't pay much attention to his stuff before, but apparently he was in touch with something "not of this world" for real, according to this particular biographer, who knew him well and personally for a bunch of decades -- the book is from the 40s) --

 

so, according to Cayce's "readings," people reincarnate in whole groups, whole families, whole nations, whole races -- there's personal karma and also family karma, national, racial, etc. -- so that's why chances to run into someone from a past life of yours in this one apporximate 100%. But, like I said, I dunno... seems to make sense though. You personally may not have done anything wrong, but someone had to come to this continent to kill 99% of its native inhabitants... so this has to be paid for. If you choose to be white in this reincarnation, you choose to pay some of that. We're all a bit like Jesus in this respect, according to Cayce's supernatural sources -- we take on some of the karmic burdens voluntarily, because "not man and not God but the natural law demands an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth."

 

Cool stuff. Thanks for the bit of info there. Very interesting.

[goldisheavy]

I was thinking about this earlier today. I think the answer to the question depends on one's definition of what exactly it is to deserve something, and what is being deserved. What is getting what one deserves?

 

Obviously.. there are people that believe without a doubt people get what they deserve.. all the time. It's possible if you think of deservingness as simply what you see is what you get. Or, what you get is by default what you deserve because by the "laws of nature" you have been given what you have dominion over, what you have achieved thus far all your efforts. Therefore, what you deserve is simply, what you get.

 

Is it really this way? You get what you are, or vice versa? Is it always this way? Is everything justified?

 

Does the opinion differ from gender to gender? or How can it?

 

Maybe this is not the way you think of deservingness. Who sets the rules, who decides whether something is worthy enough to deserve something? Is it even based on worth when you put the "law of attraction" in the picture?

 

What if, not everyone has taken advantage of the law of attraction? What if it might take some more time than others to achieve what is deserved? Or does it happen right away?

 

Is it possible that not all people get what they deserve? At least instantaneously?

 

This is where I disagree with Buddha. In Buddha's opinion, it's only a matter of time before your karma matures into karma vipaka. Thus, depending on your intentions, you will get echoes from those intentions sooner or later. I don't believe this the way Buddha explained.

 

Actions do have consequences, but... and this is an important but... these consequences are determined by so many factors, that by the time you get something back to you, your hand in it is quite small if you can even detect it at all.

 

Consider that at least to a great extent (if not to say always) what we observe in the natural world operates by the laws of physics. So if I get hit by a tornado and die, did I deserve it? Absolutely not. It was an act of nature that has all kinds of causes, but not one of these causes is tied to my volition -- at least not when I am operating under the physicalist mindset anyway. The mindset conditions intention. So if my operating mindset is largely a physicalist one, then guess what, the nature patterns I experience are what I "deserve", namely the deterministic (with elements of randomness!) physical patterns, which is to say, I don't deserve any of them. So in a very very ultimate sense, if we can pierce the veil of physicality, we can say I deserve them, but at that level I am pretty much omnipotent, so it's not a very useful level to visit in day to day conversation. In day to day conversation I am just a man, a regular fallible man, and I don't deserve any natural patterns.

 

Of course nature is 99.9% predictable. Most of our problems don't come from nature. They come from people. Do I deserve how people relate to me? This depends on whether or not you believe in free will. If I have a free will, I am free to do something very much undeserved to another being. Obviously this works in reverse too. This is true for positive and negative cases. So I can undeservedly punish others and be undeservedly punished by others. Likewise I can undeservedly reward others and be undeservedly rewarded by others. If other people were only a reflections of my past volition, it would imply that I am the only real person in the universe and all other people are just echoes. I don't subscribe to this mindset. That's what I would call 'solipsism'.

 

So since I do believe in free will, there is a strange situation happening. Obviously other people are not acting completely separate from my actions. At the same time, other people, while influenced by my actions, are not governed by them -- they have their own free wills. So I would say that the most important part of other people's actions toward me is their own responsibility and only a tiny part of other people's actions is a reflection of my own past intention. And the same is true in reverse. I am responsible for how I treat others and only a tiny fraction of my actions toward others can be said to be an 'echo' of other people's intentions. If I didn't believe this, I wouldn't honestly feel responsible for my actions and I couldn't honestly hold others responsible for their actions as well.

 

So numerous sentient beings with free will really throws a huge wrench into the idea of perfect and perfectly deserved fruition of intent. Our intent still matters and it still has effects and some of those effects are lasting, but to say we get what we deserve is really simpleminded, wrong, and it allows people to be cold-hearted to others who are in need of support or in pain. I can't tell you how many libertarians I've known who'd walk past a homeless person on the street being all smug, thinking, "This lazy loser deserves it." That's a wrong attitude. Also the idea that people get what they deserve is what's responsible for the longevity of the hideous and unjust caste system in India.

 

So in some ways we do get what we deserve, but in many important ways we don't and it's damn hard, if not impossible, to tell what's what. It's more compassionate to at least start with the assumption that one doesn't deserve any troubles, learn about the situation, and then if necessary, change your mind. But it's very harmful to enter into new situations already being smugly sure that everyone deserved what they got before you even learned a damn thing about the situation.

 

A person who is tremendously enlightened, who has pierced all the veils and whose operating and not just the ultimate mindset is a non-physicalist one, such person perhaps gets mostly what one deserves. Mostly! Not even then is it perfect. Even then there are elements of surprise and unpredictability. The sphere of influence of an enlightened being is incalculably larger than an ordinary being, but influence never becomes outright control. Influence just get arbitrarily refined, but it never enters into a state of flawless control; not even upon enlightenment. So when we act, when we exercise our intent, we are exercising influence and never control. So we're not helpless, and we have an important amount of influence over our lives, but we don't have outright control, and no one does.

Edited October 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[manitou]

Maybe we are the creator.

[Birch]

"If other people were only a reflections of my past volition, it would imply that I am the only real person in the universe and all other people are just echoes. I don't subscribe to this mindset. That's what I would call 'solipsism'."

 

Even if, you yourself were only a reflection as well?

[Dreamingawake]

I suspect that for the most part, I'm in the 'yes' camp.

 

Things that happen to us are very strongly influenced by our own actions and trying to say we don't 'deserve' (insert whatever here) is just an attempt to avoid responsibility for the consequences of our actions. Sadly that also deprives you of the power to change you're circumstances for the better. If you decide you're fat because of genetics then you're just screwed, but if you decide you're fat because you live off of Mcdonalds and snickers bars then suddenly you have the power to lose all that extra weight.

 

If you walk into a starbucks and pay $8 for a coffee then you 'deserve' to pay way too much for your coffee.

 

If you walk into a dark alley in a ghetto in the middle of the night and get mugged then yes you probably 'deserved' that too.

 

If you treat your girlfriend well and make her genuinely happy to be with you then you 'deserve' your girlfriend.

 

If you don't watch where you're walking then you 'deserve' the lump on your head when you walk into a wall or pole.

 

If you show up late to work everyday then you 'deserve' to lose your job.

 

If you're a douchebag all the time then you 'deserve' to not have any friends or you 'deserve' the 'friends' you do have.

 

If I rob a liquor store tomorrow, get pummeled by the cops and get sent to prison then I 'deserve' my new 'boyfriend'

If I pay for a really good lawyer and avoid prison then I 'deserve' my freedom.

 

There are things I'm not sure about. I'm not enlightened and don't see through the mysteries of the universe so I can't tell you whether a child diagnosed with leukemia was an axe murderer in his last life. I won't even speculate on how something so sad could happen, but I will tell you that if you trip and fall down the stairs tomorrow, you 'deserve' that broken leg. Hopefully you learn to pay attention to your footing the next time around though.

[goldisheavy]

"If other people were only a reflections of my past volition, it would imply that I am the only real person in the universe and all other people are just echoes. I don't subscribe to this mindset. That's what I would call 'solipsism'."

 

Even if, you yourself were only a reflection as well?

 

I know I am not a reflection though. I am present to myself in a way other people aren't present to me. I am with myself all the time. Others come and go. If any person is real and if any people are echos, I am real and all others are echoes.

 

Besides...

 

Suppose I am merely an echo. In that case, obviously I don't "get what I deserve." If I am merely an echo, my actions have no moral content at all, and all talk of deserving and/or not deserving is wasted.

Edited October 15, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Birch]

"I know I am not a reflection though."

 

How do you know? I'm not trying to be difficult, really. I just don't get the opportunity to debate intelligently all the time

 

"I am present to myself in a way other people aren't present to me."

 

In what way?

 

"I am with myself all the time."

 

How?

 

"Others come and go."

 

Yes they do

 

"If any person is real and if any people are echos, I am real and all others are echoes."

 

I think everyone is real but I only have echoes of them. Of course I would say that because to admit otherwise could point to me not being real either.

 

Besides...

 

Suppose I am merely an echo. In that case, obviously I don't "get what I deserve." If I am merely an echo, my actions have no moral content at all, and all talk of deserving and/or not deserving is wasted.

[goldisheavy]

"I know I am not a reflection though."

 

How do you know?

 

How do I know when I am warm? How do I know when I am hot?

 

I'm not trying to be difficult, really. I just don't get the opportunity to debate intelligently all the time

 

 

"I am present to myself in a way other people aren't present to me."

 

In what way?

 

For one thing, I am never looking at the top of my head. Secondly, I can taste what's in my mouth, but I can't taste what's in the mouths of others. I can't leave myself. Even if I let go myself, I am still there in my not-me form. I am never truly gone.

 

"I am with myself all the time."

 

How?

 

The same way space allows objects to pass through it. Naturally.

 

"Others come and go."

 

Yes they do

 

"If any person is real and if any people are echos, I am real and all others are echoes."

 

I think everyone is real but I only have echoes of them. Of course I would say that because to admit otherwise could point to me not being real either.

 

It all depends on what you want to consider real. What is the requirement for a thing, or an event, a situation to be considered real? Is there the requirement? Or even is there any set of requirements which determine that a thing or a situation is real?

 

Besides...

 

Suppose I am merely an echo. In that case, obviously I don't "get what I deserve." If I am merely an echo, my actions have no moral content at all, and all talk of deserving and/or not deserving is wasted.

 

Think about this. If I am an echo, whose echo am I? Echoes have no meaning without the source of sound. If you try to identify whose echo are you, you'll have trouble, but don't take my word for it. Try it. I have no source.

[Birch]

This is fun. You quoted my quote of your quote. Did you notice?

 

"Suppose I am merely an echo. In that case, obviously I don't "get what I deserve." If I am merely an echo, my actions have no moral content at all, and all talk of deserving and/or not deserving is wasted.

 

 

Think about this. If I am an echo, whose echo am I? Echoes have no meaning without the source of sound. If you try to identify whose echo are you, you'll have trouble, but don't take my word for it. Try it. I have no source."

 

I tried it already. I found my first source in the words, thoughts and senses of others I knew and didn't know. Then I went to where there was only stillness and I found, nothing.

 

Besides, I can look at the top of my head using mirrors. I can taste what's in someone else's mouth if I kiss them.

 

I will now have to go look up that word. "Real". I think it's something someone who wanted to instill doubt invented.