Falun Dafa thread - open discussion...

[Gauss]

[Jetsun]

As long as you cultivate genuinely according to the standard of a practitioner, the Buddha will be very pleased when he sees you. If you always do wrong deeds away from home, he will feel disgusted to look at you although you worship and kowtow to him. Is this not the truth?

 

No this is not the truth, the Buddha would see someome who harms themselves as well as other people by their non virtuous actions when away from his eyes, he would see it as ignorance and just furthering their own suffering and thus he would have compassion for them rather than disgust. It appears from this post and others that you have the view of the Buddha as being judgemental, this suggests a lack of understanding of his fundamental teachings.

[Astral_Anima]

No this is not the truth, the Buddha would see someome who harms themselves as well as other people by their non virtuous actions when away from his eyes, he would see it as ignorance and just furthering their own suffering and thus he would have compassion for them rather than disgust. It appears from this post and others that you have the view of the Buddha as being judgemental, this suggests a lack of understanding of his fundamental teachings.

 

I would suggest further that it may reflect the subliminal teachings of FG.

[markern]

Mandrake quote:

"

It seems as the general pattern is to clung to short sentences here and there in various western scriptures and force them to suit whatever you want them to be. As others already pointed out, your given interpretation is farfetched.

 

There is a context to this all, and it depends on the whole book of revelations it self, AND symbolics from the old testament. Trying to get the intended meaning you want from this line induces severe conflicts with the other passages and lines in the bible - which is not acceptable since an interpretation has to fit into all lines of the scriptures - and basically uses an "anything goes interpretation" that wildly explains away all incongruencies that arise, in a chain, from the first twisted interpretation.

 

It seems clear to me that you have very little grounding in the christian tradition. Nowhere in my life have I encountered an exegesis, either by scholars and/or Christian high-level cultivators, that were logically consistent with your hijacking of this verse. A sound exegesis would be able to provide a background in detail, with explanation and synthesis of the symbolics, the meaning of the classical greek and ancient hebrew, and providing the historical context.

 

I naturally wonder if you, other FD followers, or your leader has glanced through western scriptures(Bible, Swedenborg, Nostradamus) in a haste, found some verses that seem to suit you, clutch to them and force them to have a meaning that suits your agenda, disregarding the context and the authorities of the traditions. After this, nothing can change your mind/interpretation, especially since there is no formalized hermeneutics.

 

This hijacking of scriptures is absurd. One could basically open a random book, search for a verse and claim that it was a prophecy about whatever. Opening a cookbook, in a recipe one could interpret a line of "one lamb-steak" to mean the savior of the world. Context is everything, but as soon as the scripture is "spiritual" and not a book about dining, everything goes, but it is just as absurd.

 

\Mandrake"

 

 

Hi Mandrake!

 

Is it not so that each one enlightens to his truth at his wisdom level?

 

You have your truth which may be very different from mine since we are at different wisdom levels and hence we see truth differently.

 

I just gave you an example of a concrete number of the Dafa cultivators that I believe Revelation Cptr refers to. Nothing more nothing less.

 

It has nothing to do with Dafa scriptures or Master Li´s teachings, this is only my personal enlightenment today.

 

Feel free to tell us your opinion on what that passage means.

 

I never met a Christian who can tell me what that passage means or what this other passage from Revelation means:

 

"that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun may be made ready."

 

 

Does it not mean the genuine Dafa cultivators will arrive from the east(China mostly) with the truth(Fa) of the future world and that their way must be prepared(they must cultivate up) for a period of time before that happens?

 

Who among Christians apply the bible text on the world today?

 

Which other big spiritual practices have recently come up in the far east? None.

 

Has there ever been a spiritual practice worldwide growing as fast as FD? No.

 

Edgar Cayce said that the cradle of true christianity would be in China and 1999 would be the start of Armageddon. What does he mean? Does he not mean Falun Dafa is equivalent to True Christianity(Cayce used exactly the same term as Swedenborg) and evil vs good started their battle of other dimensions in 1999 when the CCP started persecuting Dafa cultivators?

 

Nostradamus said the battle between evil and good would last 20 and 7 years(phase 2 - world Fa rectification) starting from July 1999.

 

You ask which grounding in tradition I have, is Christian tradition worth something in self-cultivation?

 

In my opinion all traditions/forms are worthless to your cultivation level when you cultivate yourself. Unless you are in a temple and must follow the formal settings of that environment you don´t need any formalities at all, just cultivate up in your daily life.

 

I give you a quote on this subject from Master Li in Zhuan Falun:

 

"Some people still practise something like formally acknowledging somebody as their master. Speaking of it, I would like to mention, by the way, that many people want to take me as their master. This historical time of ours is different from the feudal society of China. Would knee down and kowtowing stand for worshipping your master? We do not practise such a formality. Many of our practitioners think: if I kowtow, burn incense, and worship the Buddha with a sincere heart, my cultivation energy will grow.

 

I would say that is ridiculous. Genuine cultivation depends upon oneself. It does not help at all to seek anything else. You do not have to worship the Buddha, nor burn incense. As long as you cultivate genuinely according to the standard of a practitioner, the Buddha will be very pleased when he sees you. If you always do wrong deeds away from home, he will feel disgusted to look at you although you worship and kowtow to him. Is this not the truth? Genuine cultivation depends upon the person himself. What is the use of your kowtowing to and worshipping the master today, if you do whatever you want to do upon stepping out of the door? We do not practise such a formality at all, or else you could possibly damage my reputation."

 

 

 

 

If you read Swedenborg you would know that Jesus finds the Christian church pretty useless(and even destroying people in some parts of church like the Jesuit order as he points out) and its interpretations false or even terrible including the trinity concept, the cross symbol(do they hate Jesus or why do Christians worship him being nailed to a cross instead of using a positive symbol from some of Jesus good actions??) and their concept of "faith is everything", which is just absurd and stupid.

 

All that concept does is to take away power from the individual and make him stop cultivate himself in his actions of everyday life. Other bad examples in church history are obvious like letters of indulgence etc.

 

I was raised in the protestant church and know some of that stuff. Knowledge and understanding(enlightenment) are two completely different matters and I focus on understanding the real sense of cultivation(by using Dafa scriptures).

 

 

As we all know from every cultivation school faith is just a foundation to build upon. To step into cultivation you need faith that something can be true although you can not yet see any truths since your third eye usually is closed when you start cultivation.

 

 

I have added in several quotes from Swedenborg earlier, I could add many more but what purpose does it serve, everyone must read and enlighten by themselves.

 

I do not claim to offer any absolute truth. I can only be closer or further away from the absolute truth depending on my wisdom level.

 

About Nostradamus, Master Li has deciphered a very specific verse from him regarding the start of the persecution in 1999-07-20(Remember 20 and 7, those two numbers are very interesting to me since Nostradamus said the persecution would last 20(gives us 2019-07-20 as end date) and 7 years(phase 2 until 2026-07-20)):

 

In Reference to a Prophecy

 

 

Disciples: What is currently unfolding in China was previously arranged in history, and many people throughout history prophesied this. They chose not to articulate the matter directly so as to both conform to the deluded way the world is and to warn its people. Therefore, everyday people are only able to realize the meaning of a prophecy after history has come to pass.

 

For example, with regard to what is happening in China, Nostradamus, the Frenchman, stated the following in his book of prophecy, Centuries, hundreds of years ago:

 

In the year 1999, seventh month,

From the sky will come a great King of Terror,

In order to bring back to life the great king of Angolmois,

Before and after Mars reigns in the name of bringing people happiness.1

 

What he said about "the year 1999, seventh month, From the sky will come a... Terror, In order to bring back to life the... king..." refers precisely to a few people with ulterior motives in the Central Committee of the CCP using their power to initiate a comprehensive, vicious suppression of Dafa and Dafa disciples. They have arrested people, beaten people, sent people to labor camps, sentenced people to jail, and destroyed the books; they have used the army, the police, secret agents, and diplomatic means; and they have used all radio stations, television stations, and the press to spread lies and carry out the persecution in a villainous fashion. Its overwhelming magnitude seems to threaten to bring down the heavens, while their evilness has spread throughout the entire world. With degenerate notions, the old forces arranged this for the purpose of "examining" Dafa in a destructive manner. The process of Master's Fa-rectification among humans is, as Gods see it, just like a process of resurrection.

 

As to the sentence "before and after Mars reigns," it means to say that [Karl] Marx is ruling the world before and after the year 1999. Actually, not only those societies ruled by the vile communist party are now practicing Marxism. The social welfare system and its kin adopted by the developed countries of the world are also wicked communist things within capitalism. Those appear to be free societies, yet it seems that the whole world is in fact practicing communism. People who come to the developed countries in the West from countries ruled by the evil communists share one impression: "It feels like communism here, except they don't advocate violent revolution."

 

With regard to the last part, "in the name of bringing people happiness," this refers to the vile communist party's idea of liberating all of humankind, as well as to Western society's sustaining social welfare through heavy taxation.

 

Since this matter is still in the process of being concluded, I am only deciphering these several sentences. As a matter of fact, prophecies concerning this time period have circulated in many countries. The few remarks above are only for reference.

 

Li Hongzhi

June 28, 2000

 

Evangelic christianity has grown faster than falun gong even if your 100 million number is true, which it is not.

Edited October 14, 2010 by markern

[markern]

No this is not the truth, the Buddha would see someome who harms themselves as well as other people by their non virtuous actions when away from his eyes, he would see it as ignorance and just furthering their own suffering and thus he would have compassion for them rather than disgust. It appears from this post and others that you have the view of the Buddha as being judgemental, this suggests a lack of understanding of his fundamental teachings.

 

 

I would suggest further that it may reflect the subliminal teachings of FG.

 

I agree with this completely. Nicely put!

 

Gauss, what is all this talk about getting into nice realms about? Neither Budhism nor Daosim as far as I have understood them are about being alowed to be somewhere pleasant because a powerfull god lets you. They are about becoming enlightened so as to become independent of the conditions you find yourself in. Achieveing that enlightenment is in both traditions not dependent on being alowed to become enlightened by a teacher or something that is dependent on receiving enery/gong or whatever to become enlightened. Sure transmissions occur in some traditions for gaining mastery of certain meditations and for help along the way but is completley absent in otehr traditions and certainly not seen as an absolute essential requirement for enlightenment in most of them. Certainly the Buddha thaught a way to enlightenment fully independent of transmissions of energy. So what Falun Dafa teaches is hersay.

[Encephalon]

I would like to see this thread moved to The Basement. Nothing can come of this post but a siphoning of mental and spiritual energy away from our collective progression on The Way. Bantering with absolutism of any stripe serves no purpose.

[C T]

I would like to see this thread moved to The Basement. Nothing can come of this post but a siphoning of mental and spiritual energy away from our collective progression on The Way. Bantering with absolutism of any stripe serves no purpose.

 

Sock it to 'em... Ultraman! :lol:

 

(on second thoughts, i am just wondering if there is any need for the true Way if not for such deviations which sometimes acts as markers to keep one in the knowledge that one's footing is strong and sure, and one's conduct unblemished)

Edited October 14, 2010 by CowTao

[Jetsun]

I would suggest further that it may reflect the subliminal teachings of FG.

 

I have, they say its "truth, compassion and forebarance", but there is no compassion in the theology that those "bad" people with too much karma will be wiped out and there is no compassion in the idea of a Buddha sitting in judgement on everyone... thats all just fear.

[levo]

I have, they say its "truth, compassion and forebarance", but there is no compassion in the theology that those "bad" people with too much karma will be wiped out and there is no compassion in the idea of a Buddha sitting in judgement on everyone... thats all just fear.

Thats a pretty general statment. Well, if that's the logic, do your white blood cells show compassion to germs, microbes, virus in your body?

[Astral_Anima]

Thats a pretty general statment. Well, if that's the logic, do your white blood cells show compassion to germs, microbes, virus in your body?

can white blood cells understand the concept of compassion? Does it have the level of consciousness a Buddha would? Can we even compare such things in these ways?

 

-Astral

[levo]

can white blood cells understand the concept of compassion? Does it have the level of consciousness a Buddha would? Can we even compare such things in these ways?

 

-Astral

I don't know 100%, thats why I asked the question. According to some teachings (just search for DNA and consciousness) , the DNA in the cells may carry consciousness. So if it's a cell of a living Buddha, it may carry that consciousness. I can not prove it, but it's a different way looking at it I think.

Edited October 14, 2010 by levo

[adept]

No this is not the truth, the Buddha would see someome who harms themselves as well as other people by their non virtuous actions when away from his eyes, he would see it as ignorance and just furthering their own suffering and thus he would have compassion for them rather than disgust. It appears from this post and others that you have the view of the Buddha as being judgemental, this suggests a lack of understanding of his fundamental teachings.

 

The Buddha died 2500 years ago. He does not look from anywhere, nor is he judgemental or an eternal being. He is dead.

This view of an eternal infinite life is a Upanishadic or theistic teaching, not the Dhamma.

[Encephalon]

Sock it to 'em... Ultraman! :lol:

 

Ultraman will save the day.

[Taomeow]

---Moderator's note---

 

Gauss, this is not a "moderator's warning," just a suggestion. If I were in your shoes I would heed the advice to post in off-topic. I'm equipped to move your threads there, but I'm giving you a chance to exercise Kindness-Forbearance-Truthfulness you preach and do it yourself in the future. Kindness (to other TTB members, some of whom, like me, have practiced Falun Dafa and pretty much dropped it because of people like you, even though as a practice it's really pretty good), Forbearance (of the fact that you are preaching to people who have been preached to too much and regardless of the message find it insufferable to be preached to here, where they come to get a break from being preached to elsewhere), Truthfulness (i.e. honesty and courage to face your lack of clout to convert TTB to Falun Dafa). Please. Whoever is pre-destined to find the way your way, will find it in off-topic. Peace out.

 

---Sword of tao sheathed---

[simply puzzled]

Does anyone but me remember back in the 1990s when "Master" Li was going on about aliens who wanted to harm us and gave us computers and modern machinery to enslave us? Here's an old time interview: Interview.

 

The guy is just off his rocker, and unfortunately, a lot of it is getting sanitized now so to make his marketing scheme more attractive to a larger audience.

[Encephalon]

This is precisely why I became a pedantic, critical thinking SOB. My introduction to critical thinking had a lot to do with the role it plays in making all of us, myself included, less vulnerable to influence and authority. Sadly, they are both powerful and take many prisoners.

[simply puzzled]

This is precisely why I became a pedantic, critical thinking SOB. My introduction to critical thinking had a lot to do with the role it plays in making all of us, myself included, less vulnerable to influence and authority. Sadly, they are both powerful and take many prisoners.

 

Quoted for Truth

[Dainin]

Who gave Master Li the title of "Master"?

[Seth Ananda]

I don't know 100%, that's why I asked the question. According to some teachings (just search for DNA and consciousness) , the DNA in the cells may carry consciousness. So if it's a cell of a living Buddha, it may carry that consciousness. I can not prove it, but it's a different way looking at it I think.

The very life of Buddha shows him emphaticly not sitting in judgement of anyone, but only extending compassion and helping to dispel ignorance. So a Buddha's consciousness is completely different to white blood cells, as observable through his actual life.

 

One of Li's many problems is that he wants his system to be kosher with and thus validated by every teaching and tradition every where.

It creates a very powerful mindset for his brainwashed followers, so If they start to question, not only are they questioning the Institution but also every other Religion on earth... Who can win against that?

The Authority of the Institution is therefore Absolute and Unquestionable, and the person who follows is nothing less than an amoeba while in conflict but virtually a Living God when in total agreement and obedience.

 

That's a very powerful set of dynamics to be trapped between within ones own mind...

 

Thus Falun

Is Taoist, yet has no understanding of the way...

 

Is Buddhist, but has no understanding of Emptiness and the central tenants of Buddhism...

 

Is Christian, yet Li replaces Christ, and It adopts the hateful and divisive teachings of Homosexuality being Evil, and makes full use of all the doom and gloom where it feels suited to do so...

 

Is predicted by Nostradamus, yet his prophecy's have been wrong for decades...

 

I will mention swedenborg in fear that Gauss will once again cut and paste a list of his prophecy's from the Falun website, But anyone who has studied Swedenborg can tell you the all important 'context' that he made those prophecy's in is completely different to how Li's Cult interpret them - In other words they use the few bits that work and discard the rest, yet Herald swedenborg as their forecryer while completely ignoring his central teachings...

 

To Learning to think clearly and freeing the nasty dualities within our minds that Cults use to trap us!

[Stigweard]

I'd like to pitch in here and fervently defend Gauss' right to post his views in the Open Discussion forum. Even though I share none of his views and nearly choked on my coffee in astoundment of the narrow-sighted, neo-religious waffle he shared, the fact is that Falun Dafa is an evolution of Taoism as much as the confusion of Western Taoist views that frequent our little mud-pool we call The TaoBums.

 

So if we were to condemn this topic as "Off-Topic" then we might as well trash 80% of the topics in the Open Discussion.

 

Yes Gauss is a FD convert and yes his mouth-frothing attempts to convert others has me almost wanting to wipe the spittle from my computer screen. HOWEVER he does have the right to post his views just as everyone else.

 

As those of us that have been around here for awhile will attest, we have seen many missionaries come and go. The beauty of TaoBums is that this sort of nonsense never finds fertile soil here and always will the appropriate "sorting out" be made by the members themselves WITHOUT the need for moderators to overstep their guidelines. I trust the same will happen here.

 

[Taomeow]

I'd like to pitch in here and fervently defend Gauss' right to post his views in the Open Discussion forum. Even though I share none of his views and nearly choked on my coffee in astoundment of the narrow-sighted, neo-religious waffle he shared, the fact is that Falun Dafa is an evolution of Taoism as much as the confusion of Western Taoist views that frequent our little mud-pool we call The TaoBums.

 

So if we were to condemn this topic as "Off-Topic" then we might as well trash 80% of the topics in the Open Discussion.

 

Yes Gauss is a FD convert and yes his mouth-frothing attempts to convert others has me almost wanting to wipe the spittle from my computer screen. HOWEVER he does have the right to post his views just as everyone else.

 

As those of us that have been around here for awhile will attest, we have seen many missionaries come and go. The beauty of TaoBums is that this sort of nonsense never finds fertile soil here and always will the appropriate "sorting out" be made by the members themselves WITHOUT the need for moderators to overstep their guidelines. I trust the same will happen here.

 

 

Well, it's a discussion board methinks. The moment you manage to get Gauss to discuss anything, I will repent. In any event, it was merely a suggestion. I based it on the precedent established by Sean the Owner when handling Mak Tin Si's offerings. Taoist as they get, but found inappropriate in the shape and form presented (not a discussion but an advert or a sermon -- or rather a long series thereof in a succession.) Merely channeling Sean here...

[Encephalon]

I think both of you make forceful arguments, and I realize I can only reconcile them because I've posted subject matter that veers far and wide from strictly Taoist subject matter, usually out of an effort to introduce levity or satire (which I believe I am getting a handle on, at least the sarcasm). But this board also serves an important function too.

 

If I hadn't lost a textbook I'd quote a modern philosopher by name who forcefully argued that our moral responsibility begins far earlier than our actions; he believed that we are morally responsible for the ideas and information we subscribe to, as it is this information that we ultimately act upon. It would take a bevy of social scientists to explicate the mess left by Gauss', so by that principle alone I would have to say that his posts are irresponsible at best and disharmonizing at worst. So I have to side with Taomeow that the higher functions of this board are genuine discussion and group learning, while mere proselytizing is a lesser function. Whether that is a betrayal of the spirit of TTB is beyond my understanding.

[Guest paul walter]

can white blood cells understand the concept of compassion? Does it have the level of consciousness a Buddha would? Can we even compare such things in these ways?

 

-Astral

 

Hi Astra--see my comments on the other Gauss thread about bacteria between my toes for a possible answer

[Stigweard]

I think both of you make forceful arguments, and I realize I can only reconcile them because I've posted subject matter that veers far and wide from strictly Taoist subject matter, usually out of an effort to introduce levity or satire (which I believe I am getting a handle on, at least the sarcasm). But this board also serves an important function too.

 

If I hadn't lost a textbook I'd quote a modern philosopher by name who forcefully argued that our moral responsibility begins far earlier than our actions; he believed that we are morally responsible for the ideas and information we subscribe to, as it is this information that we ultimately act upon. It would take a bevy of social scientists to explicate the mess left by Gauss', so by that principle alone I would have to say that his posts are irresponsible at best and disharmonizing at worst. So I have to side with Taomeow that the higher functions of this board are genuine discussion and group learning, while mere proselytizing is a lesser function. Whether that is a betrayal of the spirit of TTB is beyond my understanding.

As TaoMeow has rightly reminded me, discussing moderation issues in-thread is bad form. But it has happened here so let's quickly deal with it.

 

All we as moderators are meant to do is to sweep the floors and take out the trash. Nothing more. Check our Moderation Guidelines and we have a very short list of things to monitor.

 

Periods of disharmony is part of the spirit of TaoBums and, whilst we have tightened the reins on worst-case offenses, we must ensure the much-loved free-spirit of this forum is safe-kept.

 

And here is another point ... sometimes the greatest posts come out of those periods of disharmony. I know how much I am grateful for Vaj's proselytizing Buddhism over Taoism because so many of our quality members stepped forward and opened their hearts and minds to share their views and knowledge of Taoism.

 

So it isn't for us moderators to decide what is the "higher functions" of this forum because, to embody Laozi's principle of dispassion, we must honor the gutter trash as much as the diamonds.

 

So if you don't like or disagree with the OP then debate away wildly and freely. I have enough faith in members and readers to be able to make up their own minds.

 

I humbly apologize for this moderator's disturbance of this topic.

 

[Gauss]

---Moderator's note---

 

Gauss, this is not a "moderator's warning," just a suggestion. If I were in your shoes I would heed the advice to post in off-topic. I'm equipped to move your threads there, but I'm giving you a chance to exercise Kindness-Forbearance-Truthfulness you preach and do it yourself in the future. Kindness (to other TTB members, some of whom, like me, have practiced Falun Dafa and pretty much dropped it because of people like you, even though as a practice it's really pretty good), Forbearance (of the fact that you are preaching to people who have been preached to too much and regardless of the message find it insufferable to be preached to here, where they come to get a break from being preached to elsewhere), Truthfulness (i.e. honesty and courage to face your lack of clout to convert TTB to Falun Dafa). Please. Whoever is pre-destined to find the way your way, will find it in off-topic. Peace out.

 

---Sword of tao sheathed---

 

Thank you for your advice, I will take it into consideration.

 

First of all you are right about me sticking to Falun Dafa. As I see it I will continue cultivating Dafa until the end. So you could say that I am orthodox.

 

Secondly, NONE of my views(except copy-paste from Master Li´s quotes) are official FD truths.

 

Those views are just my personal state of enlightenment(cultivation level) at this moment. So I am actually arguing for my standpoints at my level of wisdom, which by no means is any absolute truth or any official FD truths. Note this. So these lively discussions are only my way of showing you some external reasons for my current enlightenment state. Everyone knows that during daily life and meditation one will have the strongest experiences and become convinced about one´s cultivation.

 

Thirdly, I agree, these discussions have become too intense and repetitive with the same users repeating their standpoints over and over. I will slow down here since many users seem agitated by now.

 

Finally, I have said it before. Nobody can be recruited to Dafa so why do you keep thinking that I am preaching? Predestined people come and the rest will not come.

 

It is absolutely impossible for anyone without a heart of steel to cultivate in Dafa. Hence nobody can become a genuine cultivator without that heart of steel.

 

Saving people is a completely different matter and only means people should like the principle of Zhen-Shan-Ren and hence think Falun Dafa is good.

 

 

Finally a side note about how some users look down at others in here.

 

Many users are upset about what Master Li has said and they actually slander him in various ways here on the forum. I am very sad when I see such things, no matter who is slanderred. Should a cultivator not be tolerant towards others no matter which opinions they have?

 

As mentioned before, Master Li has no karma(visible to anyone seeing him practice), hence he must have immense wisdom and a cultivation level very few people can ever dream of.

 

How can an average cultivator/everyday person understand such a man and judge him with their human opinions/emotions? Are you worthy of having opinions about such a man? Did you ever meet him?

 

Why has he no karma? Does he not speak truth?

 

In that case he would have had massive karma and could never sit like that in double Lotus. I urge everyone to use their common sense as a cultivator.

 

Do I dare to say something bad about Jesus, Lao Zi or Buddha or anyone else at their extremely high levels of cultivation?

 

Absolutely not! I am extremely far from their level and can only admire such people.

 

Let any man(or woman) who can sit 12 hours straight(hence he has almost no karma in his body and has surely seen many other dimensions) in double Lotus tell us his "opinions" about Master Li.

 

I bet that person will not say a single bad word about Master Li.

Edited October 15, 2010 by Gauss