Taoist magic

[Sloppy Zhang]

So kinda inspired by the revived Jerry Alan Johnson thread, I was wondering if we could open up a more general discussion about Taoist magic. What do you guys know about it? What good resources have you come across?

 

Taoist Sorcery is a book that seems to come up frequently in searches. But from what I've seen of it, most of it seems to be from a religious Taoist angle- lots of prayer over alters, making offerings, usage of charms, and appeals to deities. Quite interesting, and no doubt useful for someone subscribing to a religious Taoist system, but I don't know how accessible it is to someone working a less regimented paradigm.

 

Jerry Alan Johnson's books certainly seem to be quite numerous and detailed in terms of the information they contain. Are they practical in terms of usage? Or do they tend to lend themselves more towards someone who is involved with Taoism as a religion, and who is already familiar with rituals to use and deities to appeal to?

 

Daoinfo is another interesting site I've recently come across. But rather than teaching methods to actually use, it moreso (from what I've explored and read) talks about stuff that exists, but doesn't really explain/teach.

 

This book on Maoshan certainly looks interesting, but I've only come across a few excerpts of the text, and most of it seems rather scholarly and historical. I don't know if any methods are included, except as kind of a record like, "this is how they do stuff."

 

That's all I've managed to discover so far Hope to hear from you all as well!

Edited October 15, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[aku]

I dont know about taoist magic, but you can find on internet Initiation into hermetics, a book supposedly writen by Hermes Tristmegistus, the greatest wizard of all times.

I remember a strange news a few years ago-in Sahara desert an old artefact from Hermes is discovered.There, inside, were written only one sentence;"As above,so below.As inside,so outside."

[Martial Development]

Taoist Sorcery is a book that seems to come up frequently in searches. But from what I've seen of it, most of it seems to be from a religious Taoist angle- lots of prayer over alters, making offerings, usage of charms, and appeals to deities. Quite interesting, and no doubt useful for someone subscribing to a religious Taoist system, but I don't know how accessible it is to someone working a less regimented paradigm.

 

Your comment is truly puzzling. It works or it does not, and it is based in truth or it is not.

 

What were you hoping to find? Secular magic for the agnostic and casual philosopher? If so, here is a magic spell for you:

 

This statement is a lie.

 

Behold the wonders!

[Stigweard]

One form of Taoist magic, Fu Jyeo 符咒, is similar in principle and is subject to the same misinterpretations and misappropriations as all forms of magic.

 

Magic is based on the premise that power plus the sustained alignment of intent creates an outcome. In order to sustain intent and to generate power "tools" were introduced -- spoken and written words, symbols, physical components, physical actions/practices etc. However it all comes back to the underlying formula:

 

Power + Intent = Outcome

 

How to generate power:

• Dissolving unnecessary investments of energy into artificial personality constructs which both frees up energy and stops leakages.
  
• Vitalizing and nourishing Jing, Qi, and Shen through traditional Taoist practices like Qigong, Neidan etc.
  
• "Summoning" energy of natural energy sources (sun, moon, stars, earth, etc.) and deities through pray, ritual, offerings
  

How to sustain intent:

• Articulating an intent through a written word. Interesting that the art of stringing together letters (originally magic symbols to signify spheres or phases of energy exactly like the I Ching) is called "spelling"
  
• Using physical components (i.e. crystals, herbs, charms etc.) to be anchors of intent
  
• Performing rituals that achieve the purpose of focusing intent
  

Most people fail in magic, regardless of which tradition, because they either can't generate energy or can't sustain intent or both.

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

I dont know about taoist magic, but you can find on internet Initiation into hermetics, a book supposedly writen by Hermes Tristmegistus, the greatest wizard of all times.

I remember a strange news a few years ago-in Sahara desert an old artefact from Hermes is discovered.There, inside, were written only one sentence;"As above,so below.As inside,so outside."

 

Initiation Into Hermetics was actually written by Franz Bardon (who may or may not have been a reincarnation or had knowledge from further back). It's a good method, there are lots of great resources online (such as commentaries, discussion boards, etc) for it online. Worked with it, and other methods of western magic (such as stuff from the Golden Dawn, a bit of Crowley's stuff) for a little over a year. It's not for me.

 

Looking for something of a more taoist flavor

 

One form of Taoist magic, Fu Jyeo 符咒, is similar in principle and is subject to the same misinterpretations and misappropriations as all forms of magic.

 

Magic is based on the premise that power plus the sustained alignment of intent creates an outcome. In order to sustain intent and to generate power "tools" were introduced -- spoken and written words, symbols, physical components, physical actions/practices etc. However it all comes back to the underlying formula:

 

Power + Intent = Outcome

 

How to generate power:

• Dissolving unnecessary investments of energy into artificial personality constructs which both frees up energy and stops leakages.
  
• Vitalizing and nourishing Jing, Qi, and Shen through traditional Taoist practices like Qigong, Neidan etc.
  
• "Summoning" energy of natural energy sources (sun, moon, stars, earth, etc.) and deities through pray, ritual, offerings
  

How to sustain intent:

• Articulating an intent through a written word. Interesting that the art of stringing together letters (originally magic symbols to signify spheres or phases of energy exactly like the I Ching) is called "spelling"
  
• Using physical components (i.e. crystals, herbs, charms etc.) to be anchors of intent
  
• Performing rituals that achieve the purpose of focusing intent
  

Most people fail in magic, regardless of which tradition, because they either can't generate energy or can't sustain intent or both.

 

 

Nice overview of general magic mechanics.

Edited October 24, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Birch]

 

 

Most people fail in magic, regardless of which tradition, because they either can't generate energy or can't sustain intent or both.

 

 

Oh, I think they're not failing in it. I do think they're doing it (if the "it" follows your steps) and they're doing it so well, well, here we are

[Sloppy Zhang]

Your comment is truly puzzling. It works or it does not, and it is based in truth or it is not.

 

What were you hoping to find? Secular magic for the agnostic and casual philosopher? If so, here is a magic spell for you:

 

This statement is a lie.

 

Behold the wonders!

 

I somehow missed this post on my first read through, sorry MD!

 

I highly suggest you (and anyone interested, for that matter) to take a look at Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics." It operates quite from dominant religious organizational structures. It basically sticks to the framework that Stig outlined. So for the non-denominational magic practitioner, it's still pretty good. And that's kind of the model that I'm looking for.

 

It stands in contrast to a method of magic that, say, requires you to subscribe to religious Taoism. So all of the "magic" it teaches you goes, "go to your alter, write a fu in this particular way, dedicate it to this particular entity, burn, and magic happens." Which is great if you're a religious Taoist, and already subscribe to that particular view. And if you DO subscribe to that view, then the underlying structure that Stig put forward is there.... but if you aren't a religious Taoist, you won't get that much of an effect.

 

However, as nice as it was, Initiation Into Hermetics IS rooted in another kind of overarching structure, and that is the western four/five element model (earth, water, fire, air, void), some Hermetic principles, and things of that sort. So it's a lot more open because it tackles the framework more so than the ideology that is draped over it, but it does still have ideology that is draped over it.

 

I've been working in the western magic model for a year, and it just doesn't have the same feeling that the Taoist model gives me. But at the same time, I'm not a religious Taoist at the moment (maybe one day I will be, then again, maybe one day I won't be), so a magic system based on Taoist religion isn't going to be the best at this point in time. Hopefully I can find a method, or group of methods, that is direct as Initiation Into Hermetics (and IIH is one of a kind, so I'm not necessarily holding my breath).

 

But cool stuff always turns up here, so I thought I'd ask

Edited October 26, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[RyanO]

I hear ya Sloppy.

 

I too have been looking for a comparable system of magick that works with the Taoist system in the same way that Bardon's works with the Western. I was considering doing Bardon's program but for one thing couldn't get past the discrepancy in the element system (since this is a huge aspect of his work).

 

I've been researching how to synthesize the element systems. Eric Yudelove writes in his Tao and the Tree of Life (a comparison of Kaballah and Taoist alchemy) that since Bardon recognized the polarity of air and it's role in mediating fire and water that in fact wood is air(+) and metal is air(-). I like this analysis.

 

Here is a link to my question to him and his response:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14058-beginning-taoist-practices/page__st__80

 

I recently read this book and recommend it, especially for this topic.

 

 

 

Fiveelementtao is coming out with a book on his Thunder Wizard path, which is distinctly Norse.

 

http://www.thunderwizard.com/

 

However his understanding is heavily influenced by the Taoist system, in that he understands the elemental truths as being phases. So he has matched ether (spirit) with wood and air with metal. It makes sense but personally I prefer Yudelove's intrepretation. The spirit element in Bardon's system is akasha and doesn't seem to share the same properties as wood.

 

 

I also have a book called Magick, Shamanism, and Taoism which attempts to combine Crowley's style with Taoism but I think it fails. Though it might be worth a look, as it contains ideas for tools, altar set up, etc.:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Magick-Shamanism-Taoism-Richard-Herne/dp/B000B8K7L8

 

 

I have a Kindle and purchased the Taoist sorcery book because of my interest in this topic, haven't read it yet though, thanks for the link. Though I don't like the title (art of getting even).

 

 

I currently do Healing Tao practices and my primary teacher has been Michael Winn. Though he doesn't label it as such, it is very much Taoist magick. I practice Primordial Qigong, which is very powerful and magickal:

 

http://www.taichi-enlightenment.com/ I dont like the tai chi enlightenment thing but I guess that's marketing.

 

It deals with the directions, elements, etc. Might be worth a look. It's 'sister' form, Deep Healing Qigong, is also very magickal.

 

In general the Healing Tao is a kind of internal magick (alchemy). It's not so much focused on the outer. But Winn says that holding an intention and doing primordial is a powerful way to manifest that intention. Though he's careful to say ask for what you NEED and not what your ego desires, though what that means is another topic in and of itself.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for bringing up this topic!

[Sloppy Zhang]

I hear ya Sloppy.

 

I too have been looking for a comparable system of magick that works with the Taoist system in the same way that Bardon's works with the Western. I was considering doing Bardon's program but for one thing couldn't get past the discrepancy in the element system (since this is a huge aspect of his work).

 

I've been researching how to synthesize the element systems. Eric Yudelove writes in his Tao and the Tree of Life (a comparison of Kaballah and Taoist alchemy) that since Bardon recognized the polarity of air and it's role in mediating fire and water that in fact wood is air(+) and metal is air(-). I like this analysis.

 

Here is a link to my question to him and his response:

 

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/14058-beginning-taoist-practices/page__st__80

 

I recently read this book and recommend it, especially for this topic.

 

 

 

Fiveelementtao is coming out with a book on his Thunder Wizard path, which is distinctly Norse.

 

http://www.thunderwizard.com/

 

However his understanding is heavily influenced by the Taoist system, in that he understands the elemental truths as being phases. So he has matched ether (spirit) with wood and air with metal. It makes sense but personally I prefer Yudelove's intrepretation. The spirit element in Bardon's system is akasha and doesn't seem to share the same properties as wood.

 

 

I also have a book called Magick, Shamanism, and Taoism which attempts to combine Crowley's style with Taoism but I think it fails. Though it might be worth a look, as it contains ideas for tools, altar set up, etc.:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Magick-Shamanism-Taoism-Richard-Herne/dp/B000B8K7L8

 

 

I have a Kindle and purchased the Taoist sorcery book because of my interest in this topic, haven't read it yet though, thanks for the link. Though I don't like the title (art of getting even).

 

 

I currently do Healing Tao practices and my primary teacher has been Michael Winn. Though he doesn't label it as such, it is very much Taoist magick. I practice Primordial Qigong, which is very powerful and magickal:

 

http://www.taichi-enlightenment.com/ I dont like the tai chi enlightenment thing but I guess that's marketing.

 

It deals with the directions, elements, etc. Might be worth a look. It's 'sister' form, Deep Healing Qigong, is also very magickal.

 

In general the Healing Tao is a kind of internal magick (alchemy). It's not so much focused on the outer. But Winn says that holding an intention and doing primordial is a powerful way to manifest that intention. Though he's careful to say ask for what you NEED and not what your ego desires, though what that means is another topic in and of itself.

 

 

Anyway, thanks for bringing up this topic!

 

Wow, great stuff! Thanks for all the resources.

 

Glad to know I'm not the only one pursuing this topic

[Stigweard]

[Sloppy Zhang]

So, beyond the charms and trinkets of lesser magic... That's where the "True Magic" is to be found.

 

Now now now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves! Everyone is always so quick to jump over to "true magic" of internal yadda yadda, and inter connectivity yadda yadda, and ever present loving awareness warmth and hugs, yadda yadda, but I'd like to look at lesser magic for a little bit.

 

Would I like to become immortal? Sure. Would I like to be a compassionate person who helps people out? Sure. Do I want to escape from this endless cycle of birth and rebirth? Sure. But I'd also like to be able to move mountains, summon storms, appear and disappear at will, know things psychically, transform myself, travel thousands of miles as if I was taking a single step, and many other feats of "lesser magic."

 

As amazing and wondrous as it may be to change your consciousness, I find it of great interest to accomplish "lesser feats".

 

Your information on internal alchemy was very good, and your contribution was much appreciated. But, in this thread at least, I'd like to get away from the prevailing attitude of what seems to be present in lots of spiritual communities, and that is that "lesser magic" isn't what you should spend your time on!

[Stigweard]

Now now now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves! Everyone is always so quick to jump over to "true magic" of internal yadda yadda, and inter connectivity yadda yadda, and ever present loving awareness warmth and hugs, yadda yadda, but I'd like to look at lesser magic for a little bit.

 

Would I like to become immortal? Sure. Would I like to be a compassionate person who helps people out? Sure. Do I want to escape from this endless cycle of birth and rebirth? Sure. But I'd also like to be able to move mountains, summon storms, appear and disappear at will, know things psychically, transform myself, travel thousands of miles as if I was taking a single step, and many other feats of "lesser magic."

 

As amazing and wondrous as it may be to change your consciousness, I find it of great interest to accomplish "lesser feats".

 

Your information on internal alchemy was very good, and your contribution was much appreciated. But, in this thread at least, I'd like to get away from the prevailing attitude of what seems to be present in lots of spiritual communities, and that is that "lesser magic" isn't what you should spend your time on!

OK ... here's the thing tho, referring back to my earlier post, you need both power and intent to create any magical effect. So, if you want to be a sorcerer and do really cool stuff, where are you going to get your power from?

 

You would want some kind of 'super power', am I right in saying so?

 

Hermeticists and Taoists came to the same conclusion and spent generations of empirical research and experimentation developing systems to achieve such a super power. The Hermeticists arrived at the Philosopher's Stone whilst the Taoists discovered 金丹 Jindan. Both refer to their discoveries as a super powered elixir, both use uncannily similar descriptives (both say its color is "red gold" and both attribute it to immortality), and both lay down an almost identical method of it's achievement.

 

It is because of this that I suggest that the Philosopher's Stone of Hermetics and the Golden Elixir of Taoism are precisely one and the same.

 

You want magic? That's exactly what Jindan offers. From the Daozang: "With it [Jindan] you can enter the densest stone and soar freely in the ethereal sky. Water cannot drown you and fire cannot burn you."

 

Here's another thing. Most of us would be familiar with Monkey Magic ... King Monkey Equal of Heaven ... right? He was the famous character Sun Wukong in "The Journey to the West". Were you aware of the fact that all the feats of Sun Wukong were regarded as benchmarks for the aspiring Taoist immortal? All the transformations and cool stuff Monkey did where signs of progression for the adept.

 

Remember the scene where he stole the "Immortal Pill" from the mountain sage? Well guess what? The immortal pill of Sun Wukong is Jindan, The Golden Elixir!

 

So basically Taoists are saying that if you want to do all the cool magical stuff of Sun Wukong you have to achieve Jindan and the way to 'get' Jindan is through the Taoist practices of Neidan, Neigong, etc.

 

Is that magic enough for you?

 

[Sloppy Zhang]

Is that magic enough for you?

 

Yes yes, people have been saying that stuff all the time. "focus on the higher stuff and the lower stuff will be there already."

 

Right. Okay. So how do you do it?

 

"Guard the three treasures. Return to stillness."

 

Okay, that's cool.... a lot of people have been sitting in stillness for a long time, but nobody seems to be flying around, breathing underwater, or living for thousands of years.

 

And before you say "you have to not want it", well, if I recall correctly from the story of the monkey king, he started cultivating with the exact goal of becoming immortal, and apparently so did all the people who discovered this secret, so if that's the case, wouldn't it have been impossible for them to discover it if they wanted it the whole time?

 

Let's get away from the cryptic messages here. "Eyes shut immortal must ride dragon through hidden door." Okay. That's nice. What does that mean? What method do you use? Where did the method come from? Who's done it?

Edited October 27, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

But I'd also like to be able to move mountains, summon storms, appear and disappear at will, know things psychically, transform myself, travel thousands of miles as if I was taking a single step, and many other feats of "lesser magic."

 

I think stories of these feats shouldn't be taken too literally...maybe these things don't work in the way that we assume at first. But I guess you never know.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think stories of these feats shouldn't be taken too literally...maybe these things don't work in the way that we assume at first. But I guess you never know.

 

What leads you to think that?

[Martial Development]

I somehow missed this post on my first read through, sorry MD!

 

I highly suggest you (and anyone interested, for that matter) to take a look at Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics." It operates quite from dominant religious organizational structures. It basically sticks to the framework that Stig outlined. So for the non-denominational magic practitioner, it's still pretty good. And that's kind of the model that I'm looking for.

 

Thank you, I was not familiar with that.

 

Nevertheless, it strikes me that someone who is literally looking for magic spells and advice on the Internet, has forsaken their right to disbelieve in, or "unsubscribe to" anything at all. Certainly including the lineages of a half-dozen real living masters whose names regularly come up here, just because their practice has some patina of "religious ideology."

[goldisheavy]

Now now now, let's not get too ahead of ourselves! Everyone is always so quick to jump over to "true magic" of internal yadda yadda, and inter connectivity yadda yadda, and ever present loving awareness warmth and hugs, yadda yadda, but I'd like to look at lesser magic for a little bit.

 

Would I like to become immortal? Sure. Would I like to be a compassionate person who helps people out? Sure. Do I want to escape from this endless cycle of birth and rebirth? Sure. But I'd also like to be able to move mountains, summon storms, appear and disappear at will, know things psychically, transform myself, travel thousands of miles as if I was taking a single step, and many other feats of "lesser magic."

 

As amazing and wondrous as it may be to change your consciousness, I find it of great interest to accomplish "lesser feats".

 

Your information on internal alchemy was very good, and your contribution was much appreciated. But, in this thread at least, I'd like to get away from the prevailing attitude of what seems to be present in lots of spiritual communities, and that is that "lesser magic" isn't what you should spend your time on!

 

Sloppy, I can teach you to do it, but you won't like the price you will have to pay. In fact, if you've been paying attention to my posts, you'd already understand how to do what you want.

 

Don't bother chasing traditions. Just use your own understanding. Begin by tracking your present limitations.

 

Try to move something with your mind, and when you fail, look into it. Ask yourself this: "If I was a great mage and I wanted to make a world where I had no power to affect objects with my mind, how would I accomplish that?" In other words, if you wanted things to appear physical, how would you do it?

 

If you understand this, then you will know how to go back.

 

Ask yourself this: "Why do my arms move?"

 

"Does intent have a beginning and an end?"

 

"Does intent have a boundary? If not, then why do people talk about 'intentions' in the plural?"

 

Learn lucid dreaming and try to do all that you want in a lucid dream. You may discover something interesting. You may discover that while you can certainly do interesting things in a lucid dream, even in a dream your power may not be infinite. If you experience limitations even in the dream, then ask yourself, "Why?"

 

If you follow all this up diligently, you'll get all your answers in time.

Edited October 27, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Sloppy Zhang]

Thank you, I was not familiar with that.

 

Nevertheless, it strikes me that someone who is literally looking for magic spells and advice on the Internet, has forsaken their right to disbelieve in, or "unsubscribe to" anything at all. Certainly including the lineages of a half-dozen real living masters whose names regularly come up here, just because their practice has some patina of "religious ideology."

 

Yes, but how many of those "real living masters" are out there saying, "this is how you do magic", and how many of them are saying, "this practice is more for a change in consciousness than it is about magic."

 

And I'm not looking for something devoid of any ideology. I'm looking for something that is primarily practical, does what it says it can do, and addresses the actual mechanics, rather than focusing on the ideology. Something of a Taoist flavor is preferable. Initiation Into Hermetics certainly has its own ideological constructs which determine its steps, but at the same time, it focuses on why and how those steps work, rather than just saying, "breathe like this, bow like this, write like this, bam, ur done". Though the flavor of its system is, still, western element theory/Hermetics. So it's a great system, it just doesn't mesh well with me. So I'm looking for something else.

 

And as much as Bardon says, "this practice is more for a change in consciousness than it is about magic," he does say, "and by the way, this is how you do magic." Which is what drew me to Bardon, and it's what kept me at the practice long after I began to realize that it wasn't for me.

 

Sloppy, I can teach you to do it, but you won't like the price you will have to pay. In fact, if you've been paying attention to my posts, you'd already understand how to do what you want.

 

Well after you revealed that jumping off of a building to fly was stupid, because at a subconscious level you are still thinking that you can't fly, I decided to just go out into a field and know that I can fly. Because really, somewhere along the line, I decided that I couldn't fly. So I decided that I could fly. And that didn't do much for me except for giving me the fear that I would fall out into the void of space and die. But then I realized, "when did I decide I'd die by falling into space?" So I got over my fears, and kept deciding to fly.

 

Haven't flown yet. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Please teach me!

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy, I can teach you to do it, but you won't like the price you will have to pay. In fact, if you've been paying attention to my posts, you'd already understand how to do what you want.

 

Don't bother chasing traditions. Just use your own understanding. Begin by tracking your present limitations.

 

Try to move something with your mind, and when you fail, look into it. Ask yourself this: "If I was a great mage and I wanted to make a world where I had no power to affect objects with my mind, how would I accomplish that?" In other words, if you wanted things to appear physical, how would you do it?

 

If you understand this, then you will know how to go back.

 

Ask yourself this: "Why do my arms move?"

 

"Does intent have a beginning and an end?"

 

"Does intent have a boundary? If not, then why do people talk about 'intentions' in the plural?"

 

Interesting thoughts!

 

Learn lucid dreaming and try to do all that you want in a lucid dream. You may discover something interesting. You may discover that while you can certainly do interesting things in a lucid dream, even in a dream your power may not be infinite. If you experience limitations even in the dream, then ask yourself, "Why?"

 

If you follow all this up diligently, you'll get all your answers in time.

 

I am an avid lucid dreamer, and that's one of the things I'm working with.

[Birch]

"Eyes shut immortal must ride dragon through hidden door"

 

OT. I'll have a stab at 'em.

 

- With eyes shut the pure consciousness (i.e. without any thoughts or anything else "in it" must ride (over?) the bodiliy sensations through the (hidden) beginning of perception.

 

Ok Sloppy, I have a crap question (as usual) - if you could move mountains, where would you put them? I mean really, don't you just want the magic stuff to get whatever you want that you think you don't have right now?

 

Would you seriously become that guy in Russia (and the other ones elsewhere) who seeds clouds? Or if you don't become that guy and get all that super awesome power, what would you do with it? Would anyone notice? I surmise that to have this much power requires you do something with it. But that's just an idea.

 

GIH, what did you mean by "you wouldn't like it" (context was saying you could tell Sloppy how to do it)?

[goldisheavy]

Yes, but how many of those "real living masters" are out there saying, "this is how you do magic", and how many of them are saying, "this practice is more for a change in consciousness than it is about magic."

 

And I'm not looking for something devoid of any ideology. I'm looking for something that is primarily practical, does what it says it can do, and addresses the actual mechanics, rather than focusing on the ideology. Something of a Taoist flavor is preferable. Initiation Into Hermetics certainly has its own ideological constructs which determine its steps, but at the same time, it focuses on why and how those steps work, rather than just saying, "breathe like this, bow like this, write like this, bam, ur done". Though the flavor of its system is, still, western element theory/Hermetics. So it's a great system, it just doesn't mesh well with me. So I'm looking for something else.

 

And as much as Bardon says, "this practice is more for a change in consciousness than it is about magic," he does say, "and by the way, this is how you do magic." Which is what drew me to Bardon, and it's what kept me at the practice long after I began to realize that it wasn't for me.

 

 

 

Well after you revealed that jumping off of a building to fly was stupid, because at a subconscious level you are still thinking that you can't fly, I decided to just go out into a field and know that I can fly. Because really, somewhere along the line, I decided that I couldn't fly. So I decided that I could fly. And that didn't do much for me except for giving me the fear that I would fall out into the void of space and die. But then I realized, "when did I decide I'd die by falling into space?" So I got over my fears, and kept deciding to fly.

 

Haven't flown yet. Maybe I'm doing it wrong? Please teach me!

 

Sloppy, you have got to be kidding me. You think you can overturn a mountain of conditioning in just one day?

 

Think about it for a second. Take a mundane skill like carpentry. You know you can become a carpenter if you want. But would you become the kind of carpenter that can earn money in one day? Even mundane skills take a lot of practice. An in a mundane skill like carpentry there is nothing that contradicts your worldviews, nothing that contradicts any fundamental and basic assumptions about reality, and even then it's not easy.

 

What you need is less trying and more understanding. It's good to try to fly once in a while just to get really close to the issue for your contemplation. But then you must contemplate the issues you discover in trying. In other words, it should be 1% trying and 99% contemplating what went on. Trying and testing is important, but contemplative analysis is much more important. You'll never fly if you don't understand what you want.

 

Can you imagine the kind of world where you can do anything? What would it mean? Would you want it? It might be a lonely world. It might be a world with you and not much else in it. Have you thought about this at all? Have you thought why your intention is fragmented to begin with? Have you considered that perhaps things don't fly around because you actually want it that way? So before you can change it, you have to remember why you wanted it to be so fragmented and limited to begin with.

 

Think of it this way. If your body is numb, you cannot control it. The first step to regaining control is to become sensitive to the body again. You cannot control that which you cannot feel. So something segments feeling, or at least, creates the illusion of such segmentation. What is that? Why does it happen? Are you ready to spend many lifetimes investigating it? Are you then ready to give up many things you now enjoy and love to get your wish? It's not a freebie. It would be a total restructuring of the world as you know it.

 

Suppose you did all that I am hinting at and came back from the future to meet yourself in the present. I say your present self would consider such future you to be insane and scary to boot.

[goldisheavy]

I am an avid lucid dreamer, and that's one of the things I'm working with.

 

That's good. In a lucid dream you are like 20 years to many lifetimes in the future in terms of your magical abilities, assuming you will remain resolute in all that time.

 

So have you experimented in your dreams? You should perform many experiments. Write down your intentions if it helps you get serious. Or don't write them down if you know you can just trust yourself. For example say, "I will try to go through a wall in this dream." Then try it. Then contemplate what you find.

 

I'll tell you what I found in my dreams, since you're not revealing yet what you have found in yours.

 

In my dreams while I can do amazing and at times utterly mind-boggling things, I still experience limitations. For example, there was one dream where I decided to go through a wall and guess what? I couldn't do it right away. For a while I was just pressing up against the wall and going nowhere, even though I knew I was dreaming! I knew I could do it, at least theoretically, since it's all just a dream, and yet I couldn't do it. Then I realized it had to do with how I conceived of the "walls." Even in my dream I imagined the walls to be actual impediments. In other words, I was intending the walls to impede me! When I realized this, I could go through a "wall" except guess what? I re-conceptualized the "wall" as a non-impediment and I could go through it, but guess what??? guess what?? When I did that it was no longer a wall! So in a sense I actually never did go through a wall, not even in a lucid dream. Do you get what I am saying? I enacted an illusion of going through a wall while all the while I knew there was no actual wall there. Get it? So even when I succeeded, in a sense I never did go through any wall.

 

There is a mystical saying that reflects this truth, "A mage doesn't open any locked doors." This means that to open the lock you have to re-conceptualize the lock as a non-lock. But the time you can open it, it's not a lock anymore. Do you see what's going on?

 

This is just a hint. To really get somewhere with this, you have to put your mind to it and practice and contemplate for years and years and perhaps lifetimes. If you're serious, you'll get there. But along the way you'll have many moments where you may ask yourself if you really still want that kind of life. By the time you realize what you have to do, you may not be willing to do it. Or you may still want it. It can be either or, but there is no guarantee. Only you know what you want.

[Sloppy Zhang]

In my dreams while I can do amazing and at times utterly mind-boggling things, I still experience limitations. For example, there was one dream where I decided to go through a wall and guess what? I couldn't do it right away. For a while I was just pressing up against the wall and going nowhere, even though I knew I was dreaming! I knew I could do it, at least theoretically, since it's all just a dream, and yet I couldn't do it. Then I realized it had to do with how I conceived of the "walls." Even in my dream I imagined the walls to be actual impediments. In other words, I was intending the walls to impede me! When I realized this, I could go through a "wall" except guess what? I re-conceptualized the "wall" as a non-impediment and I could go through it, but guess what??? guess what?? When I did that it was no longer a wall! So in a sense I actually never did go through a wall, not even in a lucid dream. Do you get what I am saying? I enacted an illusion of going through a wall while all the while I knew there was no actual wall there. Get it? So even when I succeeded, in a sense I never did go through any wall.

 

There is a mystical saying that reflects this truth, "A mage doesn't open any locked doors." This means that to open the lock you have to re-conceptualize the lock as a non-lock. But the time you can open it, it's not a lock anymore. Do you see what's going on?

 

This is just a hint. To really get somewhere with this, you have to put your mind to it and practice and contemplate for years and years and perhaps lifetimes. If you're serious, you'll get there. But along the way you'll have many moments where you may ask yourself if you really still want that kind of life. By the time you realize what you have to do, you may not be willing to do it. Or you may still want it. It can be either or, but there is no guarantee. Only you know what you want.

 

This is AWESOME. Thank you

[manitou]

There seems to be a Catch 22 tied up in this as well. That is, when we are looking for the lesser magik is this a function of ego? I guess it depends - if someone is specifically trying to find a method for a specific healing, etc, maybe this wouldn't fall so much under the ego category. But if a person is intending to increase his stature by attaining the skills of magik, wouldn't this fall under the ego presumption? And if this is the case, then we're maybe nurturing the wrong thing.

To live with an understanding of wu-wei (Do-Nothing) and how it works certainly qualifies as magik as well, if you ask me. Granted, not as immediate as the magik we're talking about here. But to be able to set one's intent on a specific and then watching it come around by doing nothing to further it is a feat of magik that is nearly impossible to explain to another. This form of magik seems to be a by-product of living the Tao and earnestly attempting to live as the Sage lives.

[goldisheavy]

There seems to be a Catch 22 tied up in this as well. That is, when we are looking for the lesser magik is this a function of ego? I guess it depends - if someone is specifically trying to find a method for a specific healing, etc, maybe this wouldn't fall so much under the ego category. But if a person is intending to increase his stature by attaining the skills of magik, wouldn't this fall under the ego presumption? And if this is the case, then we're maybe nurturing the wrong thing.

To live with an understanding of wu-wei (Do-Nothing) and how it works certainly qualifies as magik as well, if you ask me. Granted, not as immediate as the magik we're talking about here. But to be able to set one's intent on a specific and then watching it come around by doing nothing to further it is a feat of magik that is nearly impossible to explain to another. This form of magik seems to be a by-product of living the Tao and earnestly attempting to live as the Sage lives.

 

Ego is a concept that promotes as much delusion as does the concept of God. Instead of clarifying issues it just confuses them.

 

What is ego?

 

Ego is a self-identity. Can self-identity be escaped? No, it cannot be. Even Buddha has an identity as a Buddha. Buddha is distinct from non-Buddhas. Has Buddha ended his intention? Absolutely not. Intention has no beginning and thus it has no end.

 

Relaxed state of intentionality is not absence of intentionality!

 

So if ego is such a dumb word, why do people use it so much?

 

People use it because of a simple reason: fear. People fear that if someone gets very powerful, that power will be used to damage other people. And what is that fear? That fear is every bit as egoic as the egoism these scared people want to denounce. Fearing for one's safety and restraining others from power is egoism every bit as much as seeking power is egoism.

 

At the same time, if you look at the nature of ego, it's non-egoic to begin with. Ego is empty by its nature. Self-delineation is not rooted in the self! Self-delineation is itself rooted in the ultimate baselessness of the nature of mind. In other words, self-identity from the very beginning is completely selfless and doesn't need to be cured or suppressed or improved. It just needs to be understood.

 

Power is not evil. In the world many ignorant beings seek and, worse, attain power. It's only good if some of the good people also sought and attained power, instead of shying away from it. Attain it and help others attain it too.

 

When everyone in the world becomes powerful, what will become of power? Power is scary only because you don't share it. If you can share the power you can use power without fear.