Taoist magic

[Sloppy Zhang]

But if a person is intending to increase his stature by attaining the skills of magik, wouldn't this fall under the ego presumption?

 

I'm sure there are those who would categorize it as such.

 

And if this is the case, then we're maybe nurturing the wrong thing.

 

"Wrong thing". According to who? Some people a long time ago who wrote it down? Some people a long time ago who were trying to get rich quick by forging copies of manuscripts that "sounded holy"? A dominant social class that wanted to keep other social classes in check?

 

Egoic or not, it doesn't really bother me.

 

To live with an understanding of wu-wei (Do-Nothing) and how it works certainly qualifies as magik as well, if you ask me. Granted, not as immediate as the magik we're talking about here. But to be able to set one's intent on a specific and then watching it come around by doing nothing to further it is a feat of magik that is nearly impossible to explain to another. This form of magik seems to be a by-product of living the Tao and earnestly attempting to live as the Sage lives.

 

It sounds very nice. And I've certainly had such "magic" happen. But I've also had such "magic" NOT happen. Is it because it wasn't meant to be? Why is it not meant to be? Who decides? Why do I, or why does anybody, have to live by something they aren't even aware of it going on? That sounds like taxation without representation, and America fought a war over that! I don't know about everyone else, but I'm American, and I don't want taxation without representation, and I don't want to keep being subjected to laws that I have no say or no knowledge of!

 

I've also found (and heard it repeated very very often) that you get what you put in. And if you don't put in anything, then you don't get anything out And I for one want to get a lot out of life. Ego? I don't really care. So to that extent, I need to put a lot into life. But what do I put in? How do I do it? These are the things I'd like to find out.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[manitou]

 

Ego is a self-identity. Can self-identity be escaped? No, it cannot be.

 

 

We're talking about two different egos. The one I'm referring to is the one that is anything less than humility.

[rain]

One form of Taoist magic, Fu Jyeo 符咒, is similar in principle and is subject to the same misinterpretations and misappropriations as all forms of magic.

 

Magic is based on the premise that power plus the sustained alignment of intent creates an outcome. In order to sustain intent and to generate power "tools" were introduced -- spoken and written words, symbols, physical components, physical actions/practices etc. However it all comes back to the underlying formula:

 

Power + Intent = Outcome

 

How to generate power:

• Dissolving unnecessary investments of energy into artificial personality constructs which both frees up energy and stops leakages.
• Vitalizing and nourishing Jing, Qi, and Shen through traditional Taoist practices like Qigong, Neidan etc.
• "Summoning" energy of natural energy sources (sun, moon, stars, earth, etc.) and deities through pray, ritual, offerings

How to sustain intent:

• Articulating an intent through a written word. Interesting that the art of stringing together letters (originally magic symbols to signify spheres or phases of energy exactly like the I Ching) is called "spelling"
• Using physical components (i.e. crystals, herbs, charms etc.) to be anchors of intent
• Performing rituals that achieve the purpose of focusing intent

Most people fail in magic, regardless of which tradition, because they either can't generate energy or can't sustain intent or both.

 

 

the magic

is it dependant on the amount of power in the "object" it id directed towards ?

[Stigweard]

We're talking about two different egos. The one I'm referring to is the one that is anything less than humility.

I think the term you are looking for is "self-importance".

 

the magic

is it dependant on the amount of power in the "object" it id directed towards ?

Of course be a synergistic effect. I will reemphasize that my "magic endeavors", in accordance to my posts above, are more about the "Great Work" of transforming meteria prima into Jindan, Golden Elixir.

 

I have heard it said that magic effects are less important then the becoming of the magician.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I have heard it said that magic effects are less important then the becoming of the magician.

 

Yes, well if someone drops a mountain on that up and coming virtuous magician, then all that cultivation goes to waste, hm? unless you believe in the type of reincarnation in which your spiritual progress and achievements roll over into your next life!

[Stigweard]

[Sloppy Zhang]

[Stigweard]

[Sloppy Zhang]

[suninmyeyes]

 

...Are you then ready to give up many things you now enjoy and love to get your wish? It's not a freebie. It would be a total restructuring of the world as you know it.

 

 

 

Nice posts Gold,I have enjoyed reading them.

The above quote is so important IMO.

One time I talked to a yogini who is a sussed out and expirienced meditator .

Trying to portray something as totally impossible I have said to her (cant remeber the context):

"..It would be like trying to move your heart into your tigh."

And she said cool as cucumber -if you can think of it is possible.

I was like -all right ..are you sure?

But now I can see her point .[edit:no I havent moved my heart into to my thigh...]

Edited November 1, 2010 by suninmyeyes

[Mal]

[Ya Mu]

[fiveelementtao]

I'd like to be clairvoyant, move mountains, turn invisible and visible again, change physical shape, fly around, in a physical, non-metaphorical sense. These have been categorized as "magic". You can call it "magic", you can call it "flowing awareness", I don't care, I just want to be able to do them.

 

My Friend, the fact that you want them so badly, pushes them farther away. I can tell you from experience, that magical abilities do not bring fulfillment. In fact, In the case of someone who attains them out of need, (which is usually indicated by strong desire) they usually bring even more dissatisfaction and separation from your true self and others. After chasing after these abilities, if you DO find them, you are also faced with the reality that you had them within you the whole time and whatever practice you engage in to release them was merely an illusory frame of reference needed to trick yourself into simply opening your beliefs to allow them to manifest. And, then you may realize that if you had just listened (in meditation), you would not have had to go running after them in the first place. And THEN, you find you have no need to use them at all...

But, that is only my limited experience and though I have not experienced the majority of the abilities you describe here, I would be a hypocrite if I did not admit that I once felt exactly as you do now... So, enjoy the ride...

[C T]

I can tell you from experience, that magical abilities do not bring fulfillment.

Nicely said, 5E.

 

Imo, Not only do they not bring fulfillment, they create such a big hunger in one that whatever fulfillment that was there before the seeking began would be overshadowed by the deep yearnings for the actualization of said needs. Many who have sought and not found enter into the death's presence armed with nothing but despair and bitterness... no wonder the Wheel of Life will not cease revolving. How could it not turn, when there is so much self-justified desires left unfulfilled in the hearts of men and women as they meet death? They (meaning the mindstreams that carry unresolved desires, and not the individual person or soul) will just have to come back, lifetime after lifetime, to seek recompense for the things which had eluded them. Power, love, money, dreams, lost loves, revenge, approval....whatever's left undone, these are just some of the energies that feed Yama, who presides victoriously over the Wheel.

 

Only those who have quelled all desires truly get the power to disengage Yama's claws.

 

The elements offer up exquisite gifts only to the deserving, and none are more deserving to partake of these gifts than those who are desire-less.

 

The tricky part is, how does one overcome the desire to be without desire?

Edited November 2, 2010 by CowTao

[Aetherous]

Surrender.

[Birch]

"The tricky part is, how does one overcome the desire to be without desire?"

 

I wonder. I don't know. I think that this idea is a typical "man-thing" idea, to wish to overcome desire

 

Desire wants you And you think you're doing the desiring ?

 

I reckon if you let your desire run ragged, something neat could happen. Like a world ? Yours anyway.

 

Funny (to me) that the tantrics seem (to me) to use both full embrace and full denial of their desires to gain freedom from both. Where-d-they go t'after that?

[C T]

"The tricky part is, how does one overcome the desire to be without desire?"

 

I wonder. I don't know. I think that this idea is a typical "man-thing" idea, to wish to overcome desire

 

Desire wants you And you think you're doing the desiring ?

 

I reckon if you let your desire run ragged, something neat could happen. Like a world ? Yours anyway.

 

Funny (to me) that the tantrics seem (to me) to use both full embrace and full denial of their desires to gain freedom from both. Where-d-they go t'after that?

 

Its a typical 'man thing' you say... well, you could just be right, Kate!

 

Scotty said, "Surrender", so maybe its Man's duty to surrender unreservedly and the Woman's role to embrace this offering? Hmm, my guess is sparks might fly! One could go as far as the wings of visualization can carry! Limitless potential awaits!

 

Ragged? Totally... Who wants to retreat when the flow can be so exquisite? Immerse away!

 

If you are into tantrism, check out the manual, "The Intermediate Practices of Vajrayogini". Comes highly recommended.

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductDetail.asp?PID=14339

[Ya Mu]

Surrender.

Surrender, Surrender But Don't Give Yourself Away...Awayyy

[thelerner]

To Sloppy Zhang,

 

You've pointed to a direction (vast magical powers). One way to find out how to get there is to see where you are now and how quickly you walk.

 

So, what do you do now, in terms of practice and time spent?

What have you accomplished?

How fulfilling has it been?

 

Knowing these things is vital to which direction you should be sent.

 

 

Michael

[Birch]

"If you are into tantrism,"

 

Maybe. I think it's into me

 

I can't breathe without it getting to me. I can't put a foot on the ground without it holding me. I can't even run into my own ego without everyone else to remind me I have one.

[Taomeow]

"If you are into tantrism,"

 

Maybe. I think it's into me

 

I can't breathe without it getting to me. I can't put a foot on the ground without it holding me. I can't even run into my own ego without everyone else to remind me I have one.

 

Ego is a term of Freudian psychology, and Freudian psychology is one of the most contrived and least fruitful approaches to the human being ever concocted. If you study taoist anatomy, physiology, and psychology, it disappears, like all other junk memes replicating mental constructs and abstract ideas with no concrete organ-system-function task in the real world. Everyone who tells you you have an ego is merely making a confession: "I am infected with a Freudian meme, and it commands me to transmit it to you." All you have to do is politely decline the offering with a compassionate thought, "I forgive you, for you are not the one in charge of what you are doing, saying, or thinking."

[Birch]

"If you study taoist anatomy, physiology, and psychology, it disappears, like all other junk memes replicating mental constructs and abstract ideas with no concrete organ-system-function task in the real world"

 

Oh good:-) Except I'm slowly buying my way out of those (junk memes). Knowing next which model to try on when the one you've just come from turns out to be a lemon. Not as easy as pie. But getting less bad at it as (my) time wears on.

 

I was thinking while on the bus earlier today that to get to an isolated organ model would maybe require cutting up relatively c(old) cadavers when "stuff" had already congealed. Which lead me to think that modern surgery rips into folks as if they were already dead, well...

 

I was figuring if you were going to do "real" anatomy from the sectional POV it would take cutting up (or into) live people.

[Sloppy Zhang]

To Sloppy Zhang,

 

You've pointed to a direction (vast magical powers). One way to find out how to get there is to see where you are now and how quickly you walk.

 

So, what do you do now, in terms of practice and time spent?

What have you accomplished?

How fulfilling has it been?

 

Knowing these things is vital to which direction you should be sent.

 

 

Michael

 

I'm actually working on some stuff now that I'd rather not discuss. Had interesting experiences, but they happen in a rather coincidental manner. Sometimes stuff happens which later corresponds to an observable reality which can also be interacted with by others. Sometimes it doesn't.

 

The point is, I'm trying to rule out cognitive bias. It's easy to look back on stuff after the fact and say, "oh yeah, I was one with the Tao, yeah, I just 'knew' that that's where I needed to be, that's what I had to do, yadda yadda."

 

I'm trying to say BEFOREHAND, "this is what I want to do, this is how I want it to work out, will it happen this way?" And it hasn't so far. So I'm interested in whatever methods/techniques/practices/whatever people have to bring about this stuff.

 

For other stuff, yeah, feel more happy, empathetic, feel like I "get" people more. Lots of feeling (see my other thread) which is sometimes bad. More compassionate. I stopped being able to watch certain movies (like action films) I just get disgusted with the violence and stuff when I think about it going on in real life, so then I just leave. Overall, feeling pretty good in the "overall how are you feeling" sense.

 

In the "what can I practically do about it" sense, well, I got nothing!

 

The whole rhetoric about, "it's within you the whole time" is great, nice, so how do I GET to it? Surrender? That's nice. Been there. Done that. Got nothing. Oh, I guess because I didn't "do it right"? Of course! How could I have been so stupid obviously if I do it and don't get anything, I'm 1) doing it wrong 2) doing it out of desire 3) some other such thing

 

The whole "you won't be fulfilled" and all that is also something I just don't get. I'm not a hard person to satisfy. Everyone goes on and on about how it won't fulfill you, and.... well, when I get something I want, I'm fulfilled. If I want to get some t-shirt, and I get it, I feel really really good about it. I don't go buy new t-shirts for a very long time (of course someone can/would/will argue that even if it's a great length of time it's impermanence, blah blah blah).

 

The "if you want it, you push it away" thing also never really made sense to me (oh that's right, it doesn't have to make sense! ) Oh yeah, cup your hands to get water, yeah, makes sense, okay, how do you translate that into practice?

 

I find it incredibly unfair to tell people, "you don't want money, you don't want power, it will leave you unfulfilled" and blah blah blah. How about you quit making decisions for other people? Again, I like you guys, and I hear what you're saying.... buuuuut..... how about I decide whether or not I'm satisfied when I get it? Because, well, I dunno about you guys, but life sucks IMHO, and powers and money and all that jazz would be really, really nice! And having it would not prevent you from doing good!

 

Sure, liberation and escaping from cycles and wheels and stuff is good. In the long run, I want to do that (oh noes! "I want") Right now though, first things first! - da powerz!

[Mal]

I'm actually working on some stuff now that I'd rather not discuss. Had interesting experiences, but they happen in a rather coincidental manner. Sometimes stuff happens which later corresponds to an observable reality which can also be interacted with by others. Sometimes it doesn't.

 

Sweet, great work. That is also what I found at 1st. Delving deeper I then started to see the "bit's" I was missing before (i.e. when I though "Sometimes it doesn't")

[fiveelementtao]

Sloppy,

Go back and re-read what I said... slowly. I never told you not to go after it. I said, I did the same thing as you and found what I was looking for and found that it wasn't all it was cracked up to be. I have seen others find these abilities and some have gone crazy and others developed other serious emotional complexes.

 

Because, well, I dunno about you guys, but life sucks IMHO, and powers and money and all that jazz would be really, really nice!

 

Here is a fact: If you do not enjoy your life now... You will enjoy it even less after you get these things.You will still be human after you get them. You still have to deal with your human baggage, and possibly add some more to the mix.

 

Others are also telling you exactly how to get what you want. You just don't like what they are saying. and the fact is you are too emotionally attached to the outcome because you are seeking to escape your present state of "Life sucking". In your current state of mind, even if someone gave you the exact techniques for the abilities you want, you would have a very difficult time obtaining abilities because you want it too much.

 

Having said that, I will tell how exactly how to get what you want. This is a technique and it works everytime. You can choose to do it or not, believe me or not, I don't care. Here is the technique: Meditate and ask for them and ask why you don't have them. Then let it go completely and keep your eyes open. If you stay detached, you WILL find it or it will find you. If, however, you continue to project that everyone is dicking you around with spiritual platitudes and that life sucks, then you will miss it. Even if it's right in front of you.

 

In the meantime, since you want practical ways to get what you want. Look for practical ways you can begin enjoying your life. Then when your life doesn't suck anymore, you will be able to enjoy your money and magical abilities...