dawg Posted October 19, 2010 That is interesting. Ok this raises a question I have wondered about. When you read old accounts of the 'gods' you read a lot about animal sacrifice. Was there a real reason for this? Did this actually do anything for the gods? I did not realize that the gods were mortal, I assumed they were immortal. Hello Dmattwads, The Gods wanted human sacrifices (Aztec gods for example), or animal sacrifices (Greek or Roman gods for example)... The reason the gods wanted these blood sacrifices was because the sacrifices sent them vital energy, that made them more powerful, and kept them alive in the god realm indefinitely... metta 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 19, 2010 Thanks for the reply Dawg! So there is nothing above or beyond this state of nonduality? Or do we simply not know? Hello Observer, Some people say that we then start at the bottom of a higher ladder... and climb to a higher unity... but nobody really knows... If you take the attitude that our consciousness evolved from the unity of a one celled creature floating in the sea, you could say that when we reach enlightenment and non-duality, we are a higher one celled creature floating in a higher sea... and that we will start evolving a higher awareness in a higher universe... But that is just speculation. metta, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The Observer Posted October 19, 2010 Hello Observer, Some people say that we then start at the bottom of a higher ladder... and climb to a higher unity... but nobody really knows... If you take the attitude that our consciousness evolved from the unity of a one celled creature floating in the sea, you could say that when we reach enlightenment and non-duality, we are a higher one celled creature floating in a higher sea... and that we will start evolving a higher awareness in a higher universe... But that is just speculation. metta, I see. Just reading that made me feel infinitesimally small lol. But I guess I have to get there for myself to see what it's like! I've often wondered however, does enlightenment really have to be sought out for or does it happen naturally after living and experiencing many, many lives? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 19, 2010 (edited) Hi there Observer... I have found this site very helpful whenever there was a need to get a better perspective on certain Buddhism-related topics > http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/index.html I trust that you too will find it useful as a source of reference. Hello CowTao, Thanks for your comment. The link you provided is describing Tibetan and Chinese Buddhism, and only mentions Theravada Buddhism superficially in passing, and in the context of Mahayana Buddhism... I practice Theravada Buddhism, so I have posted below a description written by a Theravada Monk of high attainment. Metta, Nibbana Thanissaro Bhikkhu Copyright 1996 Thanissaro Bhikkhu For free distribution only. You may reprint this work for free distribution. You may re-format and redistribute this work for use on computers and computer networks provided that you charge no fees for its distribution or use. Otherwise, all rights reserved. We all know what happens when a fire goes out. The flames die down and the fire is gone for good. So when we first learn that the name for the goal of Buddhist practice, nibbana (nirvana), literally means the extinguishing of a fire, it's hard to imagine a deadlier image for a spiritual goal:utter annihilation. It turns out, though, that this reading of the concept is a mistake in translation, not so much of a word as of an image. What did an extinguished fire represent to the Indians of the Buddha's day? Anything but annihilation. According to the ancient Brahmins, when a fire was extinguished it went into a state of latency. Rather than ceasing to exist, it became dormant and in that state -- unbound from any particular fuel -- it became diffused throughout the cosmos. When the Buddha used the image to explain nibbana to the Indian Brahmins of his day, he bypassed the question of whether an extinguished fire continues to exist or not, and focused instead on the impossibility of defining a fire that doesn't burn: thus his statement that the person who has gone totally "out" can't be described. However, when teaching his own disciples, the Buddha used nibbana more as an image of freedom. Apparently, all Indians at the time saw burning fire as agitated, dependent, and trapped, both clinging and being stuck to its fuel as it burned. To ignite a fire, one had to "seize" it. When fire let go of its fuel, it was "freed," released from its agitation, dependence, and entrapment -- calm and unconfined. This is why Pali poetry repeatedly uses the image of extinguished fire as a metaphor for freedom. In fact, this metaphor is part of a pattern of fire imagery that involves two other related terms as well. Upadana, or clinging, also refers to the sustenance a fire takes from its fuel. Khandha means not only one of the five "heaps" (form, feeling, perception, thought processes, and consciousness) that define all conditioned experience, but also the trunk of a tree. Just as fire goes out when it stops clinging and taking sustenance from wood, so the mind is freed when it stops clinging to the khandhas. Thus the image underlying nibbana is one of freedom. The Pali commentaries support this point by tracing the word nibbana to its verbal root, which means "unbinding." What kind of unbinding? The texts describe two levels. One is the unbinding in this lifetime, symbolized by a fire that has gone out but whose embers are still warm. This stands for the enlightened arahant, who is conscious of sights and sounds, sensitive to pleasure and pain, but freed from passion, aversion, and delusion. The second level of unbinding, symbolized by a fire so totally out that its embers have grown cold, is what the arahant experiences after this life. All input from the senses cools away and he/she is totally freed from even the subtlest stresses and limitations of existence in space and time. The Buddha insists that this level is indescribable, even in terms of existence or nonexistence, because words work only for things that have limits. All he really says about it -- apart from images and metaphors -- is that one can have foretastes of the experience in this lifetime, and that it's the ultimate happiness, something truly worth knowing. So the next time you watch a fire going out, see it not as a case of annihilation, but as a lesson in how freedom is to be found in letting go. Edited October 19, 2010 by dawg 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
goonis38 Posted October 19, 2010 Hi there, And welcome again... I read this the other day, when you first posted it, and didn't have time to reply... Wow... Great post, we are all going to love having you here. I know some of what you are saying to be true... I have only been trice, and have contacted my spirit guide, and Angel and had some visits from other people that are advanced at OBE, which i hope to be myself one day... But I have spoken to advanced people such as yourself and heard great beautiful story's... I was told as you say there are no words to explain the beauty of it... Still I have had people try. I heard of, if you look in a mirror your hands, and feet look cool... I have heard that you can go any where you like. Say you want to go lay on the grass in England... Lay in the sun. Or check out the moon. No problem... Awesome... Also i know by contacting my higher being, that I have been told that there are some beings that, may not always have the best intent in mind? Whats your thoughts on that? I have heard throwing yourself back into the vibrational state which gets you there. Will help in getting away from negative energies... But I am more concerned with the positive higher beings. Your insight in so awesome. I'm sure everyone is talking to you know... When you have time please PM me... Take care Melanie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 19, 2010 It seems those who ought to be morally and ethically responsible are not, and that which weak humans attempt to exert governance over are operating at levels beyond human moral and ethical standards, in short, could do without any 'intelligent' (lacking in wisdom?) interference, for this larger system is by its very nature self-governing. No wonder the general idea is that we as humanity are doomed - how dare we pitch our puny little acorns against the force of total, relentless yielding? Nature never hits back in direct fashion, nor in expected patterns and/or times when we think it might. Well, as the saying goes, God does work in mysterious ways... Well, yes, nature works in mysterious ways. I've seen a British documentary about Chernobyl 20 years after the nuclear disaster. Totally abandoned by humans, for whom it is off limits and supposedly will be for at least another four hundred years, the land became... not the nuclear desert it was predicted by our scientists to become, not even a mutagenic hell for breeding monsters... Nothing of the kind. A haven for animals, both "domestic" (the film is actually the story of a Chernobyl cat) and wild. Species returned and multiplied and thrive there that at the time of the accident were near extinct -- hundreds of them. Not small creatures either -- the largest mammals, bear, boar, wolf, everything. And birds -- falcons, eagles, everything. And domestic cats and dogs and goats... who don't have to be domestic anymore and appear none the worse for the fact. Scientists talk about levels of radiation they are exposed to there... animals don't know about that, they just thrive, the only thing they noticed was that the two-legged super killer doesn't kill them in that spot anymore, and just live. Here's a link to Part 1 if you like to watch it (it's a full length film in a bunch of parts): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-UOHn9PvJ0 Just curious TM.. Have you ever heard anyone mention that among the Chinese, those who are able to 'see' beyond this dimension into the spirit realm, possess what they call 'yin yang eyes'? Generally observed that those in possession of such visions have one eye larger than the other... the smaller one being that which enables the owner to see into the netherworld. Myth perhaps? Where i come from its an apparent fact that is simply acknowledged without question, so i thought maybe, just maybe, there could be some truth to it. No fire without smoke eh? I've read about "yin-yang eyes" in one of Amy Tan's novels. I've met people who see into the netherworld (and took a peek myself, in Peru) but only one of them had one eye smaller than the other, due to a childhood accident. Which of course may be connected to his unusual vision -- in some cultures the shaman was known as "the wounded healer," the premise being that you have to have been to the land of sickness and death yourself and found your way back in order to know the way and be able to find and lead out of it other human souls. This guy is a taoist though, not a shaman, but he is indeed a healer (who has, but doesn't use, "superpowers" and uses TCM instead.) 1 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Maddie Posted October 19, 2010 speaking of the planes of existence has raised another question.... I am going to assume that just as the creatures that fill these planes have evolved, then so have the realms. What was there before humans evolved? Did our hominoid ancestors have their own realm or did they fit into the animal realm? or did we belong to another realm before human evolution reached the stage it is at now? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Taomeow Posted October 19, 2010 Craig, thank you so much for helping formulate some of my ideas (and the ones we share) better than I do myself! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
宁 Posted October 19, 2010 This is how TM's posts look to me, sometimes Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
VCraigP Posted October 19, 2010 This is how TM's posts look to me, sometimes Cats are like that... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest paul walter Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) This is how TM's posts look to me, sometimes Saved me a reply there Little 1 Edited October 20, 2010 by paul walter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest paul walter Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) Hello Dawg. Before you realise there is nothing to gain from talking about the 'unknowable' through human language on TTB (or anywhere else ) I wanted to ask if it was ok if I PM you with a few simple questions. I understand/am in agreeance with everything you have said so far based on my own 'journey' and long proved experience so don't expect it would take up too much of your time/internet time through contention or things like that. Thanks, Paul. Edited October 20, 2010 by paul walter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest paul walter Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) double post Edited October 20, 2010 by paul walter Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 20, 2010 Hey Dawg thanks for your replys :-)... which raises a few more questions lol. Ok so the earth spirits are bummed due to use human folk ravaging the earth,... how is it that we are so dominate anyhow? I take it they are powerless to stop us eh? As for the gods and godesses are they suffering greater mortality now that less people tend to believe in them and sacrific to them? Are we as humans doing a fairly good job of throwing our corner of the universe out of wack? :-S ******************************************************************************** Hello Dmattwads, Thanks for your comment. You have a physical body, and you have a spirit body... the earth also has a physical body, and a spirit body... the "human realm" and the "animal realm" occupy the physical body of the earth... The "earth deva realm" (higher than the human realm and the lowest "heavenly realm", and the home of nature spirits) and the "ghost realm" occupy the spirit body of the earth... these four realms inter-penetrate and are superimposed on one another, and form one interactive unit... This is the world of shamanism. Humans and animals can see and manipulate the physical world... earth devas and ghosts can see the physical world but cannot manipulate it... some ghosts like to hang around the human realm so they can suck vicarious pleasure from human emotions, some ghosts live in groups in "ghost villages" and even "ghost cities"... The earth devas have a higher level of spiritual development than humans, so they shun contact with humans, and inhabit places that are not inhabited by humans... The earth devas are on a higher spiritul level than humans, so they look down on humans in the same way that humans look down on animals... Humans because they are physical, can destroy a part of the physical world... and as a consequence they destroy the spirit body of what they have physically destroyed... The ghosts don't seem to really care, they just want to reincarnate and be a human again... and the earth devas being spirit beings cannot effectively physically attack humans to stop them, especially considering the scale of the human assult on the physical world... even if the earth devas launched a spirit attack on humans and created problems for humans, humans would not even be aware that the problems were related to their destruction of the natural (physical) world... so the earth devas who just want to live in peace, retreat from and shun areas inhabited by humans. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mokona Posted October 20, 2010 Dawg, Do you feel comfortable giving tips into percieving the spirit world? I would like some advice if your so inclined. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
C T Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) Hello Enishi, If the intentions of your thoughts, words, and actions are good; you will attract good spirits... If the intentions of your thoughts, words, and actions are evil; you will attract evil spirits... even if you are unable to see them, they will be there... According to teachings laid down by the Buddha, things do not unfold as cut and dried and straightforward as you have put forth here. Such views could lead to over-simplification and eventual stagnation, resulting in a deluded state of mind. Not saying here that you are... its obvious you have been taught well by your master, but sometimes we (as in anyone of us - no matter how realized we want to think we are) have a tendency to fixate on certain matters and then it could happen that these 'keys of realization', instead of opening the door to ever-wider emancipation, gets jammed in the keyhole of ignorance. In order to prevent this, its good to keep check of the unsurpassed teachings of the Buddha from time to time. This particular sutta highlights what has been said above: http://www.vipassana.com/canon/majjhima/mn136.php Hope it can shed some light on the discussion in general. Sarva Mangalam! Edited October 20, 2010 by CowTao Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 20, 2010 I see. Just reading that made me feel infinitesimally small lol. But I guess I have to get there for myself to see what it's like! I've often wondered however, does enlightenment really have to be sought out for or does it happen naturally after living and experiencing many, many lives? Hello Observer, Thanks for the comment. In answer to your question... You will never reach enlightenment just by many lives. Imagine that you wanted to walk to a certain place, but didn't know where it was... you would first need a "road map" or "directions" telling you how to get there... then you would have to exert the effort of walking there, one step at a time until you arrived at your destination... Getting the "road map" or "directions" is quick and easy... the hard part is exerting the effort to walk there step by step... Now imagine that when you start walking, you are walking uphill, but when you reach the top of the hill it is downhill for the rest of the journey... Enlightenment is the destination of your journey, the journey is your spiritual practice. The first part of your journey that is all uphill, is trying to reach "one pointed-ness"... one pointed-ness is the top of the hill... one pointed-ness is call "little nirvana", because it is considered a taste of nirvana... one pointed-ness is a state where your mind is focused down to a single point of awareness, and nothing else exists... not even time... my first experience of one pointed-ness occurred when I was mediating at a Buddhist monastery... It was morning, and I had been meditating for 2 hours, and I looked at the clock and decided to meditate for another hour... I closed my eyes and started meditating again, but after two or three minutes there was a loud noise just outside my kuti (monk's hut) window... I opened my eyes and glanced out the window, and saw that the noise was caused by some workmen chopping up and hauling off some fallen branches... I glanced at the clock and was astounded when I realized that many hours had passes... at first I thought something was wrong with the clock, so i checked my watch but it agreed with the clock... Then I realized that everything I saw looked fresh and beautiful... and I was so energized that I thought I might not sleep for six weeks... and even though I had been sitting in a lotus position for hours without moving a muscle, I had no aches or pains, and my body felt really great... then I realized that my sense of hearing and smell were so sensitive that I could hear and smell every separate individual thing within 100 meters... this state of heightened awareness lasted about a week, before it started to wear off... I can't really explain what it did to my mind, but I can say that it totally changed my life... I began to spontaneously understand things that I had not understood before... I began to see, visit, and explore the spirit realms on a regular basis... I understood greed, anger, & fear; and they simply dropped away, never to return... I reached equanimity... I unified the yin and yang in my mind to create a unity with no conflicts between them... I am so peaceful and serene, that I marvel that I could have reached such a state... I estimate that I am 2/3 of the way to enlightenment... and I know that if I don't reach enlightenment in this lifetime, I will be reincarnated again no more than 6 times... and if I do well in this life, those reincarnations will probably be in high heavenly realms which are really amazing and wonderful places to be... So you can see that after you reach one-pointed-ness, your spiritual development accelerates as if something is pulling you forwards... this is why I say that this part of the spiritual journey is down hill... The purpose of meditation is to develop and hold "concentration"... and to stop that little voice in your head that is constantly talking. Think of that little voice as your worse enemy. Think of it as the voice of the devil, of evil. It is that little voice that creates all of your problems... The first big goal of meditation is to stop that little voice and reach "one pointed-ness"... at this point you have gained control of your mind... now your goal is to "purify the mind", to get rid of all the accumulated garbage that is considered "defilements"... now you use meditation and concentration to investigate your mind to understand and rid your mind of conditioned negative emotions like anger, greed, fear... to develop equanimity... Then if you want to reach enlightenment you must rid your mind of all attachment to your body and personality, and see them as not a real part of your chitta (immortal spirit)... and understand that you have inhabited countless other bodies and minds/personalities, and that your immortal spirit is something beyond all that... and to see the body as a bundle of pain and suffering... So that when your body dies and drops away from your immortal spirit, you will not want another body... and be tempted to reincarnate. Disclaimer... This post is a very simple and short answer to a very large and complex question... an adequate answer could fill volumes of books... But I hope it gives "the observer" more understanding of the process of reaching enlightenment. 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
三江源 Posted October 20, 2010 (edited) . Edited March 30, 2015 by 三江源 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 20, 2010 Dawg, Do you feel comfortable giving tips into percieving the spirit world? I would like some advice if your so inclined. Hello Mokona, You can ask me any questions you want to ask, and I will try to answer them if I can... no problem... metta, 1 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 20, 2010 Hi there dawg,, nice to see you, thankyou for coming in and sharing, what you say is great to read... I havent yet read your Knol, so will come back to it later, but wanted to greet you, and thankyou for your open - ness about your findings. It's really interesting. And I didnt know about your teacher,Thanissaro Bhikkhu,but I just looked him up, because the image you gave us from him of the "mind as fire unbound" expresses so beautifully and deeply, I'm really grateful to you for bringing it, and him, up. Perfect! Thankyou. I found it online and will read it. One of the reasons I am aware of for not sharing deep experiences is part of the art of the staying 'unlatched'.. so congrats to you for your clarity and sharing, combined with your unlatchedness. Sounds great to be up there in the mountains. Yum ! _/\_ Hello Cat, Thanks for the welcome, and your comment. Thanissaro Bhikkhu is not my teacher, I just quickly googled Theravada Buddhism and found his description of nirvana, which I thought was excellent, so I posted it... But my teacher is just as good him... metta, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dawg Posted October 20, 2010 Hello Dawg. Before you realise there is nothing to gain from talking about the 'unknowable' through human language on TTB (or anywhere else ) I wanted to ask if it was ok if I PM you with a few simple questions. I understand/am in agreeance with everything you have said so far based on my own 'journey' and long proved experience so don't expect it would take up too much of your time/internet time through contention or things like that. Thanks, Paul. Hello Paul Walter, Thanks for your amusing comment. If you want to PM me with a few simple questions, feel free to do so... If I can answer them, I will... Metta, Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
