Eye witness accounts of the spirit world

[Maddie]

I like the computer illustration, and will run with it... So lets say you don't reach enlightenment in a given life time, but you do acheive a degree of cultivation (i.e. your seriously upgrade your computer) in your next incarnation do you start from scratch, or (if you have upgraded enough, do you get a free cupon for a more advanced model when you get your new computer), that is does your spirit body retain some of the cultivation, so you pick up from where you left off?

[dawg]

[dawg]

I like the computer illustration, and will run with it... So lets say you don't reach enlightenment in a given life time, but you do acheive a degree of cultivation (i.e. your seriously upgrade your computer) in your next incarnation do you start from scratch, or (if you have upgraded enough, do you get a free cupon for a more advanced model when you get your new computer), that is does your spirit body retain some of the cultivation, so you pick up from where you left off?

 

Hello Dmattwads

 

your spirit body retains all of your cultivation, so you pick up from where you left off... with a new computer that is an up grade or down grade, depending on whether your cultivation went up or down.

 

Metta,

[Maddie]

Hello Dmattwads

 

your spirit body retains all of your cultivation, so you pick up from where you left off... with a new computer that is an up grade or down grade, depending on whether your cultivation went up or down.

 

Metta,

 

Thanks for the answer Dawg (I get a good vibe from you btw)

 

Would that explain why some people seem to be born with a knack for such things? If you do reach a higher level of cultivation in this life, then is there a pretty good chance that circumstances will lead you to pick up where you left off in the next life consciously? Personally I feel that at this point in my life my level of cultivation is higher than when I was born, because I think I was born with quite a bit of bad karma which I have been working very hard for the past couple of years to clear up. Would that suggest that next time round that I would be in a situation where I could pick up cultivation earlier in life, make more progress? be born in a better situation? Do we tend to get re-born in the same families often, or does it vary widely? I definately don't want to go into the ghost realm or something lower, but on the other hand even though it may be more cushy, I don't know if I necessarily want to go into a higher realm either as the human one is supposed to be the most adventageous for cultivation. Just wondering how all this stuff works?

[Taomeow]

Taomeow,

 

Dozens of other top 40 songs could also be taken as Koan-ish... (besides the salt subject)

 

The way you expressed yourself earlier made it sound like this was a very serious and intensely burning issue to you, and then your come back is "Margaritaville"?? (for a laugh?)

 

 

You are very perceptive, 3bob.

 

The problem is, I have some experience with public forums. They are not the best medium to tackle serious problems, questions, answers... I can hint here and there but I don't take it too far, stop, backpedal... have done it many times. The idea being, whoever has the ears will hear, whoever has the eyes will see, and the rest will keep looking at what their habitual-tint viewing glasses allow to see, and hearing what the standard issue ear filters will let in, regardless of what I say. Typing is a weak form of transmission -- there's no squeezing thousands of days of thought, feeling, research, reason, revelation and so on into a forum post. So all I can do in a situation like this is type an entry into a realm, and stop at that. Whoever is destined to cross the threshold, will, eventually. And everybody else deserves a little laugh, which I tried to provide. After all, tragicomedy is the genre of life...

[Taomeow]

Yeah,but my point was that he said they were alcoholics and shamans.

And my point was, they would and could stop if they so chose, unlike alcoholics with no shamanic resources.

 

Shamans are always "abusing a substance," whatever the substance happens to be, also Hindu sages, taoist masters, and (gasp) buddhist ones who have stayed with the tradition, and Sufi ones, everybody. (Rick Strassman's richly illustrated classic, Plants of the Gods, has photographs of buddhist and Hindu visionaries and venerated masters in India smoking ganja from huge bongs, shrouded in clouds of smoke...) That's because they are not really "abusing," they are "using" non-ordinary states of consciousness, it's something that comes with the territory: they know what to do in an non-ordinary state of consciousness, where to go with it, unlike alcoholics or "recreational" substance abusers. Their consciousness is not ordinary, and states they induce to modulate it are as far removed from being "trashed" as the madness of a crazy person is from what anthropologists used to say about the "madness" as a default state of a shaman. The shaman and the alcoholic swim in the same ocean of consciousness, the difference being that the alcoholic is always thrashing about and drowning, and the shaman knows how to swim to reach the island he's aiming for, the ship he plans to hitch a hike on, the underwater cave he intends to explore, and so on.

 

Don't argue it away from the "ordinary consciousness" perspective right away, try to think about it first?.. The shaman sacrifices himself, what Jesus is supposed to have done once, the shaman does with every single healing. How he handles his consciousness to be able to persevere for years and decades instead of bailing out on the third day is a miracle to behold, not an addiction to denounce.

[VCraigP]

well at least you have returned to burning intensity with this post.

 

Please...no more jimmy buffet. I am very susceptible to earworms :-)

 

Craig

[Birch]

 

Please...no more jimmy buffet. I am very susceptible to earworms :-)

 

Craig

 

I think I posted the cure for earworms here before...sing it to the end

[Guest paul walter]

And my point was, they would and could stop if they so chose, unlike alcoholics with no shamanic resources.

 

Shamans are always "abusing a substance," whatever the substance happens to be, also Hindu sages, taoist masters, and (gasp) buddhist ones who have stayed with the tradition, and Sufi ones, everybody. (Rick Strassman's richly illustrated classic, Plants of the Gods, has photographs of buddhist and Hindu visionaries and venerated masters in India smoking ganja from huge bongs, shrouded in clouds of smoke...) That's because they are not really "abusing," they are "using" non-ordinary states of consciousness, it's something that comes with the territory: they know what to do in an non-ordinary state of consciousness, where to go with it, unlike alcoholics or "recreational" substance abusers. Their consciousness is not ordinary, and states they induce to modulate it are as far removed from being "trashed" as the madness of a crazy person is from what anthropologists used to say about the "madness" as a default state of a shaman. The shaman and the alcoholic swim in the same ocean of consciousness, the difference being that the alcoholic is always thrashing about and drowning, and the shaman knows how to swim to reach the island he's aiming for, the ship he plans to hitch a hike on, the underwater cave he intends to explore, and so on.

 

Don't argue it away from the "ordinary consciousness" perspective right away, try to think about it first?.. The shaman sacrifices himself, what Jesus is supposed to have done once, the shaman does with every single healing. How he handles his consciousness to be able to persevere for years and decades instead of bailing out on the third day is a miracle to behold, not an addiction to denounce.

 

 

I'm aware off all this. And I don't/can't agree it is all as you say. You always take the view that whatever someone does who fits your views of how the "spirit" world should/does operate is in complete control of their thoughts/body/destiny. You often do a similar thing with "mundane reality", always discounting everyday/visible factors that are destroying lives and speaking to the ones that are beyond our reach (Annunaki, Controllers, etc), all of which often points to a need for escapism? (just a thought) So, I'm not at all convinced addiction to the spirit world is any better than any other. Of course I know the value of shamans, but there are different kinds with different knowledges and different self-knowledge, so...? I imagine we'll be in total agreement when the words fall away

 

 

I remember in John Blofeld's Taoist Mysteries and Magic he describes the doings of a taoist shaman who loses ten years off his life every time he invokes and incarnates a spirit, such was the effort involved. The monastics of course revere him for the sacrifice of his own life for the good of the community(through prophecy/warning etc). I suppose I'm beyond expecting others (shamans for example) to sacrifice themselves for what I'm too lazy or addled to discover for myself (and which is right in front of my/your/everyones nose if they choose to look in that direction for long and hard enough usually). Paul

[Taomeow]

I'm aware off all this. And I don't/can't agree it is all as you say. You always take the view that whatever someone does who fits your views of how the "spirit" world should/does operate is in complete control of their thoughts/body/destiny. You often do a similar thing with "mundane reality", always discounting everyday/visible factors that are destroying lives and speaking to the ones that are beyond our reach (Annunaki, Controllers, etc), all of which often points to a need for escapism? (just a thought) So, I'm not at all convinced addiction to the spirit world is any better than any other. Of course I know the value of shamans, but there are different kinds with different knowledges and different self-knowledge, so...? I imagine we'll be in total agreement when the words fall away

 

 

I remember in John Blofeld's Taoist Mysteries and Magic he describes the doings of a taoist shaman who loses ten years off his life every time he invokes and incarnates a spirit, such was the effort involved. The monastics of course revere him for the sacrifice of his own life for the good of the community(through prophecy/warning etc). I suppose I'm beyond expecting others (shamans for example) to sacrifice themselves for what I'm too lazy or addled to discover for myself (and which is right in front of my/your/everyones nose if they choose to look in that direction for long and hard enough usually). Paul

 

One of my teachers used to say, "when people say 'always,' 'never,' 'everybody,' 'nobody,' and so on, they are talking about a feeling of theirs that is 'always' there, 'never' goes away, is projected onto 'everybody,' and can be dissuaded against by 'nobody.' " Which is why I'm not going to argue.

 

One thing for you to consider though. When I'm talking about shamans, I'm not talking about "them" anymore. Not from the outside looking in.

 

You told me I was addicted to nostalgia, now I'm addicted to the spirit world? Do I have anything at all going on with me that isn't an addiction?..

 

I am addicted to only one thing: feeling alive. If I die, this will cause me to get addicted to feeling dead. What I hope to never be though is being addicted to feeling dead while being alive. Everything else goes.

[3bob]

You are very perceptive, 3bob.

 

The problem is, I have some experience with public forums. They are not the best medium to tackle serious problems, questions, answers... I can hint here and there but I don't take it too far, stop, backpedal... have done it many times. The idea being, whoever has the ears will hear, whoever has the eyes will see, and the rest will keep looking at what their habitual-tint viewing glasses allow to see, and hearing what the standard issue ear filters will let in, regardless of what I say. Typing is a weak form of transmission -- there's no squeezing thousands of days of thought, feeling, research, reason, revelation and so on into a forum post. So all I can do in a situation like this is type an entry into a realm, and stop at that. Whoever is destined to cross the threshold, will, eventually. And everybody else deserves a little laugh, which I tried to provide. After all, tragicomedy is the genre of life...

 

I'm not sure how to reply to this post but I do have a picture related to your last sentence...

 

masks.bmp

Edited October 26, 2010 by 3bob

[3bob]

The term "spirit world" is so undefined in the sense that there are so many categories.

 

Further, to know oneself as an atom (so to speak) of free Spirit is not of a "world" per-se but of an Ocean without measure!

 

Om

[Guest paul walter]

One of my teachers used to say, "when people say 'always,' 'never,' 'everybody,' 'nobody,' and so on, they are talking about a feeling of theirs that is 'always' there, 'never' goes away, is projected onto 'everybody,' and can be dissuaded against by 'nobody.' " Which is why I'm not going to argue.

 

One thing for you to consider though. When I'm talking about shamans, I'm not talking about "them" anymore. Not from the outside looking in.

 

You told me I was addicted to nostalgia, now I'm addicted to the spirit world? Do I have anything at all going on with me that isn't an addiction?..

 

I am addicted to only one thing: feeling alive. If I die, this will cause me to get addicted to feeling dead. What I hope to never be though is being addicted to feeling dead while being alive. Everything else goes.

 

Well that's one way to avoid criticisms Yes,of course what you said is correct, and some words were not chosen well but that's partly cause I don't think I'll be taken seriously (and not just by you)--your appraisal of my character is way off btw. I meant what I was implying though. Examples would probably be good, but I didn't give them cause I know you'd give me a super-size serving of alphabet soup as reply (I'm on the full-bigu diet as far as arguing goes too )

 

 

You said when you were meeting the drug-induced fairy that she told you power and the way you wield it was your personal bete noir, and you stated it took a while to be convinced of that, so perhaps the key lies somewhere in there re a certain unyielding quality in yourself? Since nothing productive is coming from all this (no actual two-way discussion) I'll bow out. Paul

Edited October 26, 2010 by paul walter

[goonis38]

One of my teachers used to say, "when people say 'always,' 'never,' 'everybody,' 'nobody,' and so on, they are talking about a feeling of theirs that is 'always' there, 'never' goes away, is projected onto 'everybody,' and can be dissuaded against by 'nobody.' " Which is why I'm not going to argue.

 

One thing for you to consider though. When I'm talking about shamans, I'm not talking about "them" anymore. Not from the outside looking in.

 

You told me I was addicted to nostalgia, now I'm addicted to the spirit world? Do I have anything at all going on with me that isn't an addiction?..

 

I am addicted to only one thing: feeling alive. If I die, this will cause me to get addicted to feeling dead. What I hope to never be though is being addicted to feeling dead while being alive. Everything else goes.

WOW...

That was beautiful!!!

Thank you... Mel

 

 

[Taomeow]

Well that's one way to avoid criticisms Yes,of course what you said is correct, and some words were not chosen well but that's partly cause I don't think I'll be taken seriously (and not just by you)--your appraisal of my character is way off btw. I meant what I was implying though. Examples would probably be good, but I didn't give them cause I know you'd give me a super-size serving of alphabet soup as reply (I'm on the full-bigu diet as far as arguing goes too )

 

 

You said when you were meeting the drug-induced fairy that she told you power and the way you wield it was your personal bete noir, and you stated it took a while to be convinced of that, so perhaps the key lies somewhere in there re a certain unyielding quality in yourself? Since nothing productive is coming from all this (no actual two-way discussion) I'll bow out. Paul

 

All right, we might have a better chance at understanding each other and talking productively and enjoyably some other time then, with one prerequisite. First I will have to forget that you called ayahuasca a "drug," the Mother of the Universe a "fairy," and turned a rather universal insight, which in honesty and vulnerability I applied first and foremost to myself instead of granting myself an exemption (something that kills all insights into all human problems, the "I'm OK, it's you who has a problem" mentality), into a stone to throw at me. Wish me luck.

[Taomeow]

WOW...

That was beautiful!!!

Thank you... Mel

 

 

 

Thank you, Mel.

[Taomeow]

well at least you have returned to burning intensity with this post.

 

Please...no more jimmy buffet. I am very susceptible to earworms :-)

 

Craig

 

Oh... I'm very sorry. No more, I promise.

 

In my defense, I don't know who Jimmy Buffet is... I have unexpected but very sizable pockets of pop-culture ignorance because I didn't grow up in the US... I've never seen a baseball game, e.g. ... and I don't know which of the songs I've first heard recently were already an earsore to the locals before I ever knew they existed. When 3bob asked "whose fault is all of this," out of nowhere "some people claim..." popped into my head, so I decided to go with it. And I know it's my own damn fault.

[dawg]

[3bob]

I feel that multi-tasking is possible, for example and as described below:

 

"...All of the states of turya from nijananda to cidananda comprise the various phases of nimilana samadhi. Nimilana samadhi is internal subjective samadhi. In your moving through these six states of turya, this samadhi becomes ever more firm. With the occurrence of krama mudra, nimilana samadhi is transformed into unmilana samadhi, which then becomes predominant. This is that state of extraverted samadhi, where you experience the state of samadhi at the same time you are experiencing the objective world. And when unmilana samadhi becomes fixed and permanent, this is the state of jagadananda"

 

From Swami Lakshmanjoo Brahmachari

 

Om

Edited October 26, 2010 by 3bob

[dawg]

[dawg]

I feel that multi-tasking is possible, for example and as described below:

 

"...All of the states of turya from nijananda to cidananda comprise the various phases of nimilana samadhi. Nimilana samadhi is internal subjective samadhi. In your moving through these six states of turya, this samadhi becomes ever more firm. With the occurrence of krama mudra, nimilana samadhi is transformed into unmilana samadhi, which then becomes predominant. This is that state of extraverted samadhi, where you experience the state of samadhi at the same time you are experiencing the objective world. And when unmilana samadhi becomes fixed and permanent, this is the state of jagadananda"

 

From Swami Lakshmanjoo Brahmachari

 

Om

 

Hello Bob,bob,bob,

 

"Samadhi" is just the Pali word(a dialect of Sanskrit) for "concentration"... it is not the spirit world...

 

And any way, the quote is talking about a series of ever deeper states of concentration... not multi tasking...

 

And the goal of Samadhi is to reach "one pointedness" which is the opposite of multi tasking.

 

Have a nice day,

 

Metta,

Edited October 26, 2010 by dawg

[Mokona]

[dawg]

[dawg]

I've tried this with feelings for my father, no luck yet.

 

Hello Mokona

 

This is not about your father, it is about you... it is about you understanding that your anger, hurt, and pain, are a part of him, not you... but that you are "clinging" to it as if it were a part of you... that your anger, hurt, and pain is his control trip still controlling you... that you do not have any anger, hurt, and pain in you that belongs to you... that it belongs to your father, poor fellow... "here dad, here's your anger, hurt, and pain... I don't need it any more so I'm returning it... thanks for the loan... I'll leave it in the kitchen... you can do what you want with it... see you latter... bye".

 

Just keep doing it on a regular basis... and you will cleanse your self of any baggage your father dumped on you.

 

Metta,

[gendao]

"But understand that it is "your fault", because you accept the role of the victim... "

 

I "get" this conceptually but it bugs me a great deal because can you really say that the child I was "accepted the role of victim"? What else was I supposed to do?

 

These days, I don't have to do that (anymore, thanks to many things, practice being one of them) but why the caveat that one "accepted" such things when one was not in a position to have the option to do otherwise?

 

Isn't it just a device to "clear out" whatever's left of the effects of the abuse I suffered? I mean to really poke one into a state of grief? I have to say I'm confused about taking responsability this far.

 

Any ideas why this is "the done thing"?

Well, I think that a lot of our "choices" are actually made by our "Higher Selves." So, "you" still may be responsible for it on a much higher level. It may just be a different level of "you."

 

The veil between these levels of "you" is what creates our ignorance, doubt & fear. Faith, or self-belief, is sensing the invisible connection that actually still exists there, even though it may be veiled.

 

Obviously, your conscious "you" as a child was probably not responsible for getting abused. However, your Higher Self may have subjected you to that experience for whatever reason... Your Higher Self's "free will" & karma may be your conscious self's "fate."

 

 

PS - dawg - AWESOME posts, man! ^5 Thoroughly enjoying all of them!!!

Edited October 26, 2010 by vortex