Gold Dragon Body Photos

[Sloppy Zhang]

There are some here that are interested in cutting through the fake crap that is put forth as authentic! The true believer as part of a mass movement, will always admonish the outsider for asking serious questions. Why? The outsiders critique is seen as a threat to a tenuous belief system. The belief system is not based on reality or proof and is based on emotional tenets. Further, one who truly pursues a chosen avenue of spiritual practice, must question without fail, extraordinary claims. If the claims hold true, then there is no problem.

 

Yes!

[ralis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, karma is just so convenient isn't it. Not saying that it can't be real. It's just convenient how it always steps in to prevent someone from doing something.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well put!

 

 

The use of karma against people is a real travesty and is nothing more than a roadblock to real evolution of one's potential.

[Cloudhand]

There are some here that are interested in cutting through the fake crap that is put forth as authentic! The true believer as part of a mass movement, will always admonish the outsider for asking serious questions. Why? The outsiders critique is seen as a threat to a tenuous belief system. The belief system is not based on reality or proof and is based on emotional tenets. Further, one who truly pursues a chosen avenue of spiritual practice, must question without fail, extraordinary claims. If the claims hold true, then there is no problem.

 

 

Rock on.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I think these are good points. Has anyone considered that certain types of energy have a moral intelligence?

 

Yes. I have.

 

And it's very (in)convenient, depending on what you want to do.

 

But I haven't experienced anything like that myself. Maybe I will one day. Maybe I won't ever.

 

If stories are going around that you are performing things for your students, who already love and adore you and hang on every word, and then the call gets made for you to do it in front of everyone else, and you fail, and can't do what the reports say, and you can't do what your students have seen you do, what sounds better?

 

A) I cannot actually do it, and was preying on people who already wanted to believe.

 

B ) The moral intelligence of my energy allowed me to perform in front of my students, because it was a learning exercise, and I can't do it in front of the scientists, to prove that there is more to humans than it would initially appear, because it would feed the ego too much.

 

....... Well..... okay.

 

I (personally) am not saying that B can't happen. That might very well be the case. Maybe the only reason anyone of us can do anything is because we are allowed to do so because of the energy at any given moment. It's just.... well, looking at who stands to gain from what explanation, I think it's pretty self explanatory.

 

 

Oh, that's right, I suddenly thought of all the gurus who have become corrupted by power, used it for personal gain, became evil sorcerers and demons, terrorized the land, and had to be put down. I guess their energy's moral intelligence allowed them to use their powers for personal use, but not, apparently, to do so in front of an audience!

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

Lucky,

 

Just go take his classes and do the practices to see if they are fake or not.

 

It's that simple.

 

The practice works. It is incredible. End of story.

 

Max doesn't ask anything in return, except for 25 bucks an hour for a whole weekend of his time and to support himself. That's not much.

 

As for the photos, the Karmapa has a similar thing going on, so call him a fake too eh?

 

I agree with you completely, yet see nothing wrong with people questioning these photos. I don't think it goes against Kunlun or Max. Knowing him the little bit that I do, even if these photos were genuine, I think he'd completely understand the disbelief. I believe it's the Kunlun way to seek the truth, even (especially?) if that means parting ways with the status quo of the community.

 

"Speak your truth"

[Sloppy Zhang]

Lucky,

 

Just go take his classes and do the practices to see if they are fake or not.

 

It's that simple.

 

The practice works. It is incredible. End of story.

 

Max doesn't ask anything in return, except for 25 bucks an hour for a whole weekend of his time and to support himself. That's not much.

 

As for the photos, the Karmapa has a similar thing going on, so call him a fake too eh?

 

I agree with you completely, yet see nothing wrong with people questioning these photos. I don't think it goes against Kunlun or Max. Knowing him the little bit that I do, even if these photos were genuine, I think he'd completely understand the disbelief. I believe it's the Kunlun way to seek the truth, even (especially?) if that means parting ways with the status quo of the community.

 

"Speak your truth"

 

Lucky said "the practice works".

 

Please allow me to ask a very specific question: is there anything scientifically objective that the practice does?

 

I certainly understand the need for a practice that heals you mentally/emotionally. I fully support that (especially in light of my own current situation).

 

HOWEVER, more than just mental/emotional health is being claimed. Physical effects (disappearing, immortality, golden dragon body, heavenly eye, etc) are being claimed. These things happening, and their physical effect, can easily be verified by our current scientific method and technological abilities. Photos aren't really substantial enough to count as "proof" in and of themselves, but they can certainly start the ball rolling in a very positive direction towards a more careful analysis and verification.

 

So....

 

When people say "the kunlun practice works", are they including these physical effects? (anyone familiar with the practice feel free to answer) Does Kunlun actually produce these in practitioners? Has it been verified, if not, why not?

 

 

Do they realize the amount of harm being done by not just verifying their method, and instead being all wishy washy about what they want, one moment saying discover it yourself, the next minute producing relatively feeble examples, then turning around and saying "just do it yourself"?

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

Good work.

 

I haven't disappeared. But yeah, weird shit happens. I don't think that this shit can be proven scientifically...the furthest we could get in testing is just saying, "oh yeah, this person is a little different." But aren't we all?

 

I agree with Lucky's point that if you want to experience the weird shit, do the practices. That's the closest you can get to the weirdness of the shit.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Good work.

 

I haven't disappeared. But yeah, weird shit happens. I don't think that this shit can be proven scientifically...the furthest we could get in testing is just saying, "oh yeah, this person is a little different." But aren't we all?

 

I agree with Lucky's point that if you want to experience the weird shit, do the practices. That's the closest you can get to the weirdness of the shit.

 

I mean, weird shit happens to people who do drugs.

 

But does that have any bearing on reality? Well, about as real as chemicals in your head getting messed up.

 

I for one am looking for a spiritual practice that is significantly more realistically important than just getting high. Yeah, it'd be a lot easier to just be a pothead for the rest of my life. But that's not why I'm here.

 

So, anything that can be verified scientifically? (bear in mind that a LOT can be verified scientifically)

 

Clairvoyant visions which would be verified according to an event or object that you'd have know way of knowing given our current understanding of how humans receive information?

 

Disappearing body that objects can pass right through? (like coffee cups?)

 

Healing energy which would really help crippled people (including innocent victims who receive spinal injuries from things like drive by shootings).

 

 

There are a shit ton of things that would 1) verifying the credibility of these methods and 2) help out a lot of people.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

I mean, weird shit happens to people who do drugs.

 

Obviously potheads aren't clairvoyant, experiencing enlightenment, seeming to disappear, or having healing energy, like Kunluners are.

 

So, shitty argument.

 

I for one am looking for a spiritual practice that is significantly more realistically important than just getting high.

 

I'd also like to heal people too. I'm on a good path for developing this ability, eventually. I've helped some friends with minor problems, but not to the extent where I can walk into the ER and confidently save lives with my energy.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Obviously potheads aren't clairvoyant, experiencing enlightenment, seeming to disappear, or having healing energy, like Kunluners are.

 

So, shitty argument.

 

So then:

 

So, anything that can be verified scientifically? (bear in mind that a LOT can be verified scientifically)

 

Clairvoyant visions which would be verified according to an event or object that you'd have know way of knowing given our current understanding of how humans receive information?

 

Disappearing body that objects can pass right through? (like coffee cups?)

 

Healing energy which would really help crippled people (including innocent victims who receive spinal injuries from things like drive by shootings).

 

Gotta admit, your argument is pretty shitty too. For all the talk about what Kunluners have, no one's DOING anything. Just coming up with more reasons for why they DON'T do anything.

 

I'd also like to heal people too. I'm on a good path for developing this ability, eventually. I've helped some friends with minor problems, but not to the extent where I can walk into the ER and confidently save lives with my energy.

 

You don't even have to heal anybody. They can heal themselves!

 

The story goes someone taught Kan the hold the ball posture. He held it while watching tv, and was no longer paralyzed.

 

Maybe all Max or Kan have to do is walk into a hospital, teach them hold the ball, and have them do it for a few months. Heck, find some paralyzed combat veterans. I'm sure more than a few of them would do whatever it took for them to walk like new again, no matter how long it took- so long as it worked.

 

 

Why is this not being done? If kunlun, or any other method for that matter (this is more or less a kunlun thread, but I think it applies) gets so much done, then why isn't anybody actually DOING something???? Seems contradictory to claim you want to spread some good teaching, but then not actually do everything you could possibly do to transmit it in the best manner.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Apech]

 

I agree with you completely, yet see nothing wrong with people questioning these photos. I don't think it goes against Kunlun or Max. Knowing him the little bit that I do, even if these photos were genuine, I think he'd completely understand the disbelief. I believe it's the Kunlun way to seek the truth, even (especially?) if that means parting ways with the status quo of the community.

 

 

Scotty,

 

Do you really believe that those photos are anything other than time exposures of someone moving (probably rapidly depending on the exposure). They are placed on that website for a purpose. To excite interest in Kunlun.

 

I am not saying there is no value in Kunlun or that Max has never helped anyone but why use this kind of promotional material. I remember a thread a long time ago which was a about the claim to harness the energy of black holes (or some such thing) this seems similar to me.

 

I think one of the dangers/temptations of energy practice is that the subjective experience is so compelling that you can get a completely over blown idea of its external effect. The inner world has different laws to the outer one. Powers in the inner realm are first cycle powers. Things like increased sensitivity and knowing things that should be beyond your knowledge, mainly picking up on energy flows and being able to predict events. These are first cycle stuff. They are accessible to us (not easily) but attainable through practice.

 

Other siddhis, particularly actual bodily transformation ... light body or rainbow body are part of the next cycle and are for the very, very few. However the first cycle energy movements mirror them ... so subjectively you can access powers beyond what you can manifest.

 

Not sure I have entirely expressed myself properly - but I hope you get what I am saying.

[Aetherous]

Gotta admit, your argument is pretty shitty too. For all the talk about what Kunluners have, no one's DOING anything. Just coming up with more reasons for why they DON'T do anything.

 

I don't know what you mean. I experience weird shit every day. It's a normal part of the spiritual path (not just Kunlun), for those who actually practice.

 

It'd be impossible for me to prove this kind of stuff to anyone, and when I've tried in the past (to friends) it didn't work.

 

I don't care if you don't believe my reasons. They are questionable. As is my assertion that weird shit (whatever that entails) happens.

 

Oh well.

 

You don't even have to heal anybody. They can heal themselves!

 

then why isn't anybody actually DOING something????

 

They are all practicing the methods, and healing themselves.

 

But I also think that there are challenging or even impossible problems to self heal. For instance, if a vertebrae is completely messed up. Or if a person is dying within like 10 minutes. It's hard to say how a person will react to a self healing practice.

 

But about the holding the ball story...I think the moral was more about personal destiny than about the efficacy of the posture. If someone else holds that posture, will they heal in the same way? Who knows. If the story is true, then it just means that Kan needed to do that posture at the time. Someone was clairvoyant enough to see that.

 

So pay attention to what you need to do at this time for your own progress...I think that was the actual point.

[Aetherous]

Apepch7,

 

Do you really believe that those photos are anything other than time exposures of someone moving (probably rapidly depending on the exposure). They are placed on that website for a purpose. To excite interest in Kunlun.

 

I truly don't believe either way. My bias is towards them being fake. I want them to be fake! Yet, if I were to believe they were fake without actually knowing, I'd be doing myself a disservice.

 

I am not saying there is no value in Kunlun or that Max has never helped anyone but why use this kind of promotional material.

 

I'm not the one running the show. I've actually decided to not be a facilitator anymore, in order to fully be myself. I don't fit into the mold. Disappearing, etc, is not in my experience...so how can I facilitate it?

 

My view is that everyone does what they decide to do regardless of my opinions. So I'm going to do that as well, and let no one's choices and actions (not Max's, not anyone's) affect my life.

 

So yeah, I'm not the one to ask about anything regarding Kunlun really. I just practice it.

[Sloppy Zhang]

I don't know what you mean. I experience weird shit every day. It's a normal part of the spiritual path (not just Kunlun), for those who actually practice.

 

I experience weird shit too. But nothing that is significantly different than if I just did some recreational drugs. (so far, anyway, I hope to move on up with my practice!)

 

It'd be impossible for me to prove this kind of stuff to anyone, and when I've tried in the past (to friends) it didn't work.

 

Scotty, you are a cool guy, and I respect you as someone who is very knowledgeable, experienced, and has given great advice, but you have continuously dodged the MAIN points in my past posts. Let me quote them again:

 

So, anything that can be verified scientifically? (bear in mind that a LOT can be verified scientifically)

 

Clairvoyant visions which would be verified according to an event or object that you'd have know way of knowing given our current understanding of how humans receive information?

 

Disappearing body that objects can pass right through? (like coffee cups?)

 

Healing energy which would really help crippled people (including innocent victims who receive spinal injuries from things like drive by shootings).

 

These things have been claimed to have happened. These things are easily reproducible and easily verifiable (well, maybe not the disappearing, but knowledge of events and self healing seem to to be pretty common threads for first signs of a practice working).

 

So why is nobody doing them in a manner to verify that they are actually happen outside the person's own mind?

 

 

It's hard to say how a person will react to a self healing practice.

 

Same can be said for any other medical treatment. Yet they work in just enough cases that they are viable options, and it doesn't stop anyone from using them, or experimenting with them. The same might be said for energy healing if people actually took the time to verify that stuff is happening outside of their own minds. And if all it takes is holding the ball for a few months, I bet the Kunlun people could easily find some paralyzed people and see what could happen with them.

 

Even if it only actually worked in a few people, even just ONE well documented case study, it would be PHENOMENAL.

 

But about the holding the ball story...I think the moral was more about personal destiny than about the efficacy of the posture. If someone else holds that posture, will they heal in the same way? Who knows. If the story is true, then it just means that Kan needed to do that posture at the time.

 

Know how we'd know? Rational, scientific examination and inquiry.

 

Someone was clairvoyant enough to see that.

 

Know how we'd know? Rational, scientific examination and inquiry.

 

So pay attention to what you need to do at this time for your own progress...I think that was the actual point.

 

Ah, convenient. It was an allegorical story about someone miraculously self healing from paralysis. Not actually supposed to be taken to be truth. That's good. Maybe more people should know this? Or would that mess up the marketing?

Edited October 18, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

These things are easily reproducible and easily verifiable (well, maybe not the disappearing, but knowledge of events and self healing seem to to be pretty common threads for first signs of a practice working).

 

So why is nobody doing them in a manner to verify that they are actually happen outside the person's own mind?

 

The bolded part is where I disagree. I can give you reasons/excuses as to why it's not easy, such as "energy has its own intelligence and decides not to work at those times" etc...but it's not like I actually know. It's just a guess. But yeah...it generally doesn't work for me to reproduce strange results. They spontaneously happen to me (in the verifiable external world) without any of my own control.

 

So something significantly weird will happen, other people will notice how weird it is, and it will coincide with me practicing something...yet I can't replicate it or actually prove to them (or myself) that it was due to the practice or my path.

 

So, I can either choose to believe for myself that it was the practice, or just deny it. But either way, it doesn't matter! It especially doesn't matter if other people think weird shit is happening as a result of my own doing. Claiming that all the time just makes a person seem crazy. Playing the role of a person with supernatural powers isn't enjoyable, even if you can prove it! It's a much better calling (at least for myself) to just help people become stronger in themselves, and have a heart. That's all I care about. To see a person change in that way is a greater miracle than bringing storms, making people have spontaneous movements, disappearing, knowing the future or other's thoughts, etc. It's even better than experiencing enlightenment, in my opinion.

 

Same can be said for any other medical treatment. Yet they work in just enough cases that they are viable options. The same could be said for energy healing if people actually took the time to verify that stuff is happening outside of their own minds.

 

Well energy work in general is actually shown to be helpful with healing. Mayo clinic is involved with Chunyi Lin's stuff. Ya Mu shares some of his case studies here on the forum.

 

Relaxation therapies are well accepted in Western medicine. Massage is accepted. I think healing touch (like reiki?) is done by some nurses.

 

The difference is that most medical treatments are specific and targeted. If someone has back pain, you treat it with pain killers. With energy work, the results are generally slow and holistic (unless you have specific methods for healing).

 

But at the same time, the results are real!

 

This is just my limited experience. I don't usually try healing.

 

Ah, convenient. It was an allegorical story about someone miraculously self healing from paralysis. Not actually supposed to be taken to be truth. That's good. Maybe more people should know this? Or would that mess up the marketing?

 

Why not take it as truth? But the point wasn't that holding the ball will do that for everyone. It was that someone came to Kan at the right time and taught him what he needed.

[That Guy]

so its as simple as stepping on a stage, demonstrating, and the world believes? ah sweet naivete.

 

 

...and when Randi declares you're still a fraud because your aura doesnt show up as 60Hz AC?

:lol:

Ok so by your logic I guess stepping on a stage to prove your claims to some skeptics IMPOSSIBLE!

Golden dragon body, obviously possible, was there ever a doubt?!

 

How do you decide what is possible and whats not? coin flip?

 

Oh look someone on a stage showing what he can do? Is this for real? I dont mean the stunts, I mean is that really a guy on stage showing what he is capable of?!

Well maybe if there were skeptics there saying he cant do these things he d try a flip and fall on his face...

Or he'd show them on a stage(thats right on a stage showing the skeptics what he can do, i know sounds insane! but please stay with me), and convince them right there that what he claims he can do he really can do!

[ralis]

Here is a video of a person levitating that people believed to be authentic. This trick was believed to be authentic for generations.

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etSivpBHUmE

Edited October 18, 2010 by ralis

[Lucky7Strikes]

Lucky,

 

 

 

I agree with you completely, yet see nothing wrong with people questioning these photos. I don't think it goes against Kunlun or Max. Knowing him the little bit that I do, even if these photos were genuine, I think he'd completely understand the disbelief. I believe it's the Kunlun way to seek the truth, even (especially?) if that means parting ways with the status quo of the community.

 

"Speak your truth"

Yeah I agree. I'm not sure if he minds as much anymore of people calling him a fraud. Max just delights in exploring mystical and ancient phenomena, be it Buddhist, Egyptian, whatever. I mean, if he wasn't so interested, why would he be where he is now?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Scotty,

 

Do you really believe that those photos are anything other than time exposures of someone moving (probably rapidly depending on the exposure). They are placed on that website for a purpose. To excite interest in Kunlun.

 

I am not saying there is no value in Kunlun or that Max has never helped anyone but why use this kind of promotional material. I remember a thread a long time ago which was a about the claim to harness the energy of black holes (or some such thing) this seems similar to me.

 

I think one of the dangers/temptations of energy practice is that the subjective experience is so compelling that you can get a completely over blown idea of its external effect. The inner world has different laws to the outer one. Powers in the inner realm are first cycle powers. Things like increased sensitivity and knowing things that should be beyond your knowledge, mainly picking up on energy flows and being able to predict events. These are first cycle stuff. They are accessible to us (not easily) but attainable through practice.

 

Other siddhis, particularly actual bodily transformation ... light body or rainbow body are part of the next cycle and are for the very, very few. However the first cycle energy movements mirror them ... so subjectively you can access powers beyond what you can manifest.

 

Not sure I have entirely expressed myself properly - but I hope you get what I am saying.

If the pictures are just promotional material, that makes Max a liar. He has shown these pictures in seminars as evidence of Kan's rainbow body status.

 

So if these are faked, it means he and Kan set up these photos purposefully to deceive practitioners and the public. It would seriously damage his credibility.

[ralis]

In general, the problems human primates have are: Fear of questioning authority, wanting to believe in anything that looks good i.e, the woo woo factor and lack of critical thinking skills. The true believer will accuse one who questions and analyzes of being linear and unable to grasp the complete picture. The so called complete picture is the guru's ideology and one must accept that so as to be part of the group.

[ralis]

If the pictures are just promotional material, that makes Max a liar. He has shown these pictures in seminars as evidence of Kan's rainbow body status.

 

So if these are faked, it means he and Kan set up these photos purposefully to deceive practitioners and the public. It would seriously damage his credibility.

 

I doubt anyone ever questions him on this. Further, why not demonstrate this phenomenon in public.

[ralis]

Yeah I agree. I'm not sure if he minds as much anymore of people calling him a fraud. Max just delights in exploring mystical and ancient phenomena, be it Buddhist, Egyptian, whatever. I mean, if he wasn't so interested, why would he be where he is now?

 

Exploring is one thing and is far from mastering any of the above mentioned. Max having his students pay for his explorations is being disingenuous. It is implied he has mastered these disciplines. Come on! He teaches Mongolian Shamanism? The commitment, if one is even qualified to study shamanism, takes decades! Further, the whole Egyptian spiritual system is lost forever in the sand!

Edited October 18, 2010 by ralis

[Lucky7Strikes]

Lucky said "the practice works".

 

Please allow me to ask a very specific question: is there anything scientifically objective that the practice does?

 

I certainly understand the need for a practice that heals you mentally/emotionally. I fully support that (especially in light of my own current situation).

 

HOWEVER, more than just mental/emotional health is being claimed. Physical effects (disappearing, immortality, golden dragon body, heavenly eye, etc) are being claimed. These things happening, and their physical effect, can easily be verified by our current scientific method and technological abilities. Photos aren't really substantial enough to count as "proof" in and of themselves, but they can certainly start the ball rolling in a very positive direction towards a more careful analysis and verification.

 

So....

 

When people say "the kunlun practice works", are they including these physical effects? (anyone familiar with the practice feel free to answer) Does Kunlun actually produce these in practitioners? Has it been verified, if not, why not?

 

 

Do they realize the amount of harm being done by not just verifying their method, and instead being all wishy washy about what they want, one moment saying discover it yourself, the next minute producing relatively feeble examples, then turning around and saying "just do it yourself"?

I'm still very much of a beginner so my answer is going to be very very limited. Read some of Winpro's posts after doing Kunlun. He talks about seeing into the future, burning his own clothes, altered sight, and much more.

 

The practice actually for me has had more physical effects than mental. Your body feels completely different than before. It buzzes, it's blissful, it's so blissful the nervous system feels like it's being punctured by needles. Sounds are heard with incredible clarity, you can begin to feel the insides of the body, and other parts you've forgotten you could feel. You can start doing MCO, and other energetic movements in the body spoken in books. Life becomes lighter and lighter, much more effortless. If you combine this with vipassana, the hidden egoic tendencies spring up and as they are released you can physically feel that energetic blockage removed. You feel fear, like cold damp fear take over your body and there is crying suffering and all sorts of amplified sensations take over and filed through, and after they're filed through you feel lighter and lighter.

 

But I'm know I'm still going through a healing process, like taking medicine. My body is not even fully healed, I can't even fully "feel" my body, so why would I expect to be clairvoyant or fire energy out of my palms? To me, Kunlun is not mo-pai, it's not magic, it's not learning to zap people with energy. It's purification, and it's doing what it said it would do which is to heal one's body and mind.

 

I think it's naive to think: hey if you can do all these cool things why don't you go check yourself into a lab? Yea, and become their lab rat? Become dissected? People fear these anomalies. I sure wouldn't go near a hospital or a government institution with real mystical powers. Max has shared stories about his relationship with the military and the medical institutions, and there's a reason why masters don't go become lab rats.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Exploring is one thing and is far from mastering any of the above mentioned. Max having his students pay for his explorations is being disingenuous. It is implied he has mastered these disciplines. Come on! He teaches Mongolian Shamanism? The commitment, if one is even qualified to study shamanism, takes decades! Further, the whole Egyptian spiritual system is lost forever in the sand!

Live with your disbeliefs. Live in your cage of fear and insincerities. Call everyone who challenges you liars. Keep playing your game of cards. And surely die that same way. There no one here at loss but yourself.

[Lucky7Strikes]

In general, the problems human primates have are: Fear of questioning authority, wanting to believe in anything that looks good i.e, the woo woo factor and lack of critical thinking skills. The true believer will accuse one who questions and analyzes of being linear and unable to grasp the complete picture. The so called complete picture is the guru's ideology and one must accept that so as to be part of the group.

 

 

Take a leap will ya?

 

Edited October 18, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes