Gold Dragon Body Photos

[ralis]

That term true believer coined by Eric Hoffer is flat out ridiculed by sociologists.

 

Yes Ralis, you just are not special. What can I say? You are just left out. Boo hoo!

 

Instead of personal attacks, then why not respond to my post in a civil intelligent manner?

[Birch]

"then we're left with nothing really said for any shared sense of reality."

 

_oh THIS (I'm taking my "THIS" back for a while ) is the best one! It's the what happens after one (might) realise such a thing that's interesting IMO.

 

Still, it would be neat if the "shared reality" part looked nicer than what it is from where I'm looking at it. But I guess I can't have that (being a silly "idealist" in an "imperfect" world n' all).

 

Anyway, IF whatever Max is doing has resonance in the "right" places it might still stand that he sucks at marketing (or has pretty bad advisors). I also stand by my desire to see BS practices come under the critical regard of people who know what they're talking about in favour of other people who are starting path (whatever it is) and who should be treated better.

 

I was listening to a qi-gong master podcast yesterday and the invitee explained the concessions he made in his teaching practice in order to "make a living". That pissed me off quite a lot because it seemed to me the concessions he was making were being made on the heads of his students.

[Pero]

Why has does this discussion lead to divisiveness, authoritarianism, provisional faith and exclusivity? The true believers create these divisions for myriad reasons. Mostly as a group dynamic! However, the arguments for these miraculous events are created as one upmanship against anyone that questions authority. "You aren't ready", "you have no faith", "you can't see or trust", ad infinitum.

 

Hm yeah, I suppose it really is hard to understand why I would think that someone who CHALLENGED Padmasambhava (a nobody really, just one of the greatest figures in Tibetan Buddhist history) has no faith/devotion in him. I guess in this day and age that's the appropriate way to address people important to us, right?

 

And it's not like there's people going around saying "I can see him but you can't ha ha ha" or something, so I don't know where you get your idea of one upmanship.

[Ya Mu]

Don't know exactly yet if I really have anything to say, but for some reason I was prompted to post to this thread. Perhaps an invisible "nudged me"?

 

Some considerations: Cameras don't always catch the full spectrum of what is happening. But sometimes they do, or at least part of it. I know my wife took a pic when I was communing with a Spirit that I "saw" in New Mexico on the reservation. We had no idea the camera caught it until we got the film back. She was not attempting to photo it but was simply taking pics of the landscape while I did the things I do.

 

We have a new move in Gift of the Tao 2 called Spirit Circle Walking. In the last class one of my senior students "saw" the senior student right in front start to disappear (the move IS actually designed to shift a person). But I didn't hear anyone else say they "saw" that. Several said they felt it happening. Which gets back to the fact that everyone will not see the same thing because of the differences in their talents or cultivation level.

So it is an utter fallacy to apply linear seeing to these type of things.

 

My suggestion is to use common sense and inner heart in choosing what to study and don't let these things distract you. It really makes no difference whatsoever if the pics were real or not. What matters is how YOU feel after any particular practice.

[90_1494798740]

[quote name='Ya Mu' date='20 October 2010 - 02:17 AM' timestamp='1287533858' post='218322'

My suggestion is to use common sense and inner heart in choosing what to study and don't let these things distract you. It really makes no difference whatsoever if the pics were real or not. What matters is how YOU feel after any particular practice.

 

Exactly! So fascinating any "promised" effects of a practice might be ... the direct effect on your well-being should be the real focus. Does it feel right? How do you feel afterwards? Balanced, energetic or tired!?

It's not so much different from a good training session in the gym. If you feel refreshed afterwards everything is fine and you are in good shape. If you're tired you have trained to much or you might be getting ill.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

car-ge bunshin no jutsu?

 

Those car-ge are always up to no good.

 

 

I remember a story about a gen-jutsu master once being summoned in front of an emperor and then everyone swearing blind afterwards that he turned into a dragon and disappeared.

 

It's not to say that I think it's impossible to disappear.... but I doubt that anyone that can do it will ever promote themselves as being able to do it. What would be the point other than money?

 

You can't really ever trust a camera, even your own....and even if you could it could always be shown to be some form of photographic technique even if it wasn't.

 

You can't even trust your own eyes, the other week I met a beautiful girl at a bar, the next morning she was anything but beautiful! A clear case of gen-jutsu. I think she spiked my beer with alcohol, Naughty kunoichi that she was.

 

edit: mixed up my terms

Edited October 20, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[Sloppy Zhang]

It's not to say that I think it's impossible to disappear.... but I doubt that anyone that can do it will ever promote themselves as being able to do it. What would be the point other than money?

 

Maybe they actually care about getting teachings that actually work out to people?

 

I find it funny that many people overlook really "low level" spiritual feats- stuff like clairvoyance, telekinesis, illusions and things like that. They say stuff like, "oh yeah, I could easily do that, but then decided to turn on to real stuff, like awareness and things like that."

 

It's like.... you could go a LONG way into exploring the nature and capabilities of humans if you explored and shared those "low level" things.

 

Again, it is infuriating and incredibly sad to see people say stuff like, "yeah, I could use clairvoyance to find people, but I'm not going to. What's the point other than money and selfish fame? I'd rather focus on real stuff." When you have people like Natalie Holloway who still can't be found, alive or dead.

[Birch]

"But it would be true that historical Karmapas are said to..."

 

 

Would it also be "true" that I just almost nearly wrote "Oooh you're getting very good at this stuff"?

 

Mr Apech, I expect more/better. Why I do is, of course, my own problem. I guess I'm doing it for my own practice. Forgive me for doing it on your forum space/time. Take it as flattery, maybe?

 

Was the "But it would be true" caveat necessary? How about just "Historical Karmapas are said to..."?

 

Either they are said or not said to. In which case adding "...it would be true" is pointless, no?

[Birch]

"low level" spiritual feats- stuff like clairvoyance, telekinesis, illusions and things like that.

 

Oh, I dunno what's "low level" about:

 

- Clairvoyance

- Telekinesis

 

"Illusions" are IMO something else.

[Sloppy Zhang]

"low level" spiritual feats- stuff like clairvoyance, telekinesis, illusions and things like that.

 

Oh, I dunno what's "low level" about:

 

- Clairvoyance

- Telekinesis

 

Well it's "low level" like, "extra stuff", "distractions", "not the real path" etc etc etc. Pretty much, "serious practitioners" don't pay attention to stuff like that.

 

"Illusions" are IMO something else.

 

I think it'd still be pretty significant if I can make an entire crowd of people think I was the president for however long I wanted.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

Maybe they actually care about getting teachings that actually work out to people?

 

 

Come on sloppy.... if you could really disappear would you tell the world? I mean really, then you'd get thousands of thousands of students turning up wanting to learn. Then a load of 'em may go off and rob a bank.... then some agencies would turn up and shut you down or use you for their own purposes.

 

As for the using clairvoyance to find someone or a dead body this has been done many a time. I'm sure you can find some examples online somewhere. That's fairly common as far as my reading goes.

[Birch]

"Well it's "low level" like, "extra stuff", "distractions", "not the real path" etc etc etc. Pretty much, "serious practitioners" don't pay attention to stuff like that."

 

Because?

 

 

"I think it'd still be pretty significant if I can make an entire crowd of people think I was the president for however long I wanted."

 

Well, if Obama/Bush can pull it off, why not? I'm not being snarky BTW. It's just that I believe that a "presidence" of anything is pretty much an illusion. I think the getting everyone to believe in the illusion stuff is pretty "high-level.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Come on sloppy.... if you could really disappear would you tell the world? I mean really, then you'd get thousands of thousands of students turning up wanting to learn. Then a load of 'em may go off and rob a bank.... then some agencies would turn up and shut you down or use you for their own purposes.

 

How is that any different from anything else though?

 

We teach chemistry in college, then people go off and teach terrorists how to make bombs with stuff you can buy at Wal-Mart.

 

We teach martial arts to kids, who turn around and use it to bully other kids.

 

We produce guns that people can obtain to kill people for no reason.

 

Are we going to shut all of those people down because they have a potential for harm? I don't think so, because the same progress that can lead to harm can (and has) lead to great good.

 

As for the using clairvoyance to find someone or a dead body this has been done many a time. I'm sure you can find some examples online somewhere. That's fairly common as far as my reading goes.

 

Everything I've seen that while psychics and stuff might be consulted, their main usage seems to be in cold cases and things like that. Basically, a last ditch effort in cases when they don't have anything else to go on.

 

I saw an episode of the Tyra Banks show where she had a bunch of "psychic kids" up there. Also a guest was Allison Dubois, whose life has been "adapted" in a way to the television show "Medium." Anyway, at the end they picked a bunch of random people out the crowd for the kids and Allison to "read".

 

Generic stuff. They'd look at a middle aged person and go, "it feels like you have a child....." It's like because there's NO way you'd be able to know that!

 

"Well it's "low level" like, "extra stuff", "distractions", "not the real path" etc etc etc. Pretty much, "serious practitioners" don't pay attention to stuff like that."

 

Because?

 

I don't know. But it's how stuff gets treated all the time (especially around here). Just peruse through some old threads on siddhis, psychic powers, paranormal abilities, qi powered super martial arts, etc etc.

 

"I think it'd still be pretty significant if I can make an entire crowd of people think I was the president for however long I wanted."

 

Well, if Obama/Bush can pull it off, why not? I'm not being snarky BTW. It's just that I believe that a "presidence" of anything is pretty much an illusion. I think the getting everyone to believe in the illusion stuff is pretty "high-level.

 

No, not think of me as "a president." But see me as the CURRENT president. As in, I'd walk into a room and make everyone think I was Obama. Then I'd give some speech and everyone would be like, "wow, it was totally Obama." Then it's like, in reality, Obama was on the other side of the planet. But thousands of people would be like, "no, I saw him, for real he was there!".

 

THAT kind of illusion.

[Birch]

"I don't know. But it's how stuff gets treated all the time (especially around here). Just peruse through some old threads on siddhis, psychic powers, paranormal abilities, qi powered super martial arts, etc etc."

 

Right. I reckon it might be because TTB's is mainly:

 

- Buddhist in culture. Because Buddhism is a neat dialectic (i.e. still mainly acceptable to Western cultures) that doesn't carry much weirdness until you hit shamanism tantra/bon. I guess philosophical Taosim is somewhere around there, but it gets weirder quicker IMO (and small, dithering experience).

 

- Beginner's place (i.e. where many people come to have their beliefs challenged - sometimes quite hard - which can be hard going)

 

I reckon if you can practice to the point where none of the above (siddhis, psychic powers, paranormal abilities, qi powered super martial arts) are anything more than extensions of your own human awareness and physical address then are we still talking "abnormal"? Possibly. Maybe not.

 

 

"No, not think of me as "a president." But see me as the CURRENT president. As in, I'd walk into a room and make everyone think I was Obama. Then I'd give some speech and everyone would be like, "wow, it was totally Obama." Then it's like, in reality, Obama was on the other side of the planet. But thousands of people would be like, "no, I saw him, for real he was there!".

 

THAT kind of illusion."

 

Oh. I dunno. I guess you could make a drama-docu of Obama's last year? Something like that? I don't think the illusions that are being discussed involve the person being anything other than themselves.

[Taomeow]

How is that any different from anything else though?

 

We teach chemistry in college, then people go off and teach terrorists how to make bombs with stuff you can buy at Wal-Mart.

 

We teach martial arts to kids, who turn around and use it to bully other kids.

 

We produce guns that people can obtain to kill people for no reason.

 

 

Kids who learn martial arts are not perceived as a threat to the establishment right here right now (what are they gonna do against HAARP?.. and who cares if they bully their classmates?..). However, where I grew up, and at the time when levels of paranoia maintained by the establishment were higher there than here... once upon the Iron Curtain... Asian martial arts were forbidden to the general population. You had to be a member of the ruling establishment, some kind of special forces or other, to learn that.

 

People with guns and bombs can be raided, scanned, and otherwise revealed as possessing guns and bombs, so the establishment can take the latter away and put the former away. Not so with internal power. It can't be revealed by search and seizure. It can't be suspected from a bulging pocket because it's not in the pocket. It can't be ass probed out of the one possessing it. So if it is real, it is feared. Control systems don't like to deal with anything at all they can't control. Any master who knows he/she has something "they" can't control is likely to be intelligent enough to know not to let "them" know.

[C T]

I find it funny that many people overlook really "low level" spiritual feats- stuff like clairvoyance, telekinesis, illusions and things like that. They say stuff like, "oh yeah, I could easily do that, but then decided to turn on to real stuff, like awareness and things like that."

 

It's like.... you could go a LONG way into exploring the nature and capabilities of humans if you explored and shared those "low level" things.

 

Its possible these feats are not classified under spiritual attainments (not even in the 'low' side of it). Likely they are psychical abilities, powers which have always taken the fascination of many throughout the ages. There is no prerequisite for any spiritual evolvement before one can learn to develop them. All cultures have their own unique desires and modes of development/dabbling. Ouija boards, tarot and other basic stuff all the way up to instant mass trance induction capabilities - people who can do these things, and who actually do them, need not necessarily be more spiritual than that woman who decided to dump the cat into the bin just for kicks.

 

For example, If you took a course in hypnotism, there is likelihood you could eventually learn, at will, to induce a crowd of people to think you are the president (although what that has to do with spiritual development idk). So its not like its that difficult a task.

 

Not demeaning the integrity of those who choose to cultivate these abilities. It all depends on one's needs really. Its not too accurate to project a comparison and say that this sort of choice is labelled lowly and insufficient as a spiritual pursuit whereas things like awareness is the more authentic or 'higher' fruit of spiritual attainment - this premise of speculation is in itself fundamentally incorrect.

 

Upon reflection, its no wonder humanity is still as befuddled, despite the apparent leaps in intelligent levels and immense info tech accessibility - people in general are still in the dark as to what is authentic spiritual development (the trunk) and what's not (the branches). This is glaringly stark - many out there seems to think their lives have become spiritually more meaningful simply by virtue of the fact they have started to believe in the newer possibilities of guardian angels, channelling outer dimensional beings, PLR(Past Lives thing), crystals, feng shui, NLP, reiki, aliens, mushrooms, joined meditation/yoga classes, etc etc. Imo, absolutely fantastic with expanding one's field of interest to inject a bit of needed variety into one's mundane life, but to think these have any spiritual significance in and of themselves might be stretching it a bit.

Edited October 20, 2010 by CowTao

[Guest paul walter]

yes. he. does.

 

 

ok then, yes he does. Just goes to show you can't trust primary source material. Paul

[Guest paul walter]

This argument is easily made the other way around. It's an old speech pattern: "this issue in our culture is overstating/understating, so beware". Shit like this gets no where. Be a scholar if you want, but it'll leave you crumpled over a chair, intellectualizing, doubting, again and again. Just practice like Scotty says, and see if the art works.

 

You need a degree of faith in anything. But you also need caution yes, but you can't rationalize learning to ride a bicycle and actually learn.

 

 

My response has nothing to do with "rationalising" "intellectualising" or "doubting" etc (that sort of thing is simply used to communicate my point to others, or try to anyway) My response was based on primary sense response-the talk comes after my eyes 'see' the 'truth'. Paul

Edited October 20, 2010 by paul walter

[Guest paul walter]

 

So the point about the pictures is mute. It is very possible that the camera can't see. It is very possible that the pictures showing what people who can see actually see can be made, as an educational aid. That they were created for this purpose instead of just snapped is possible and even likely, but this wouldn't render anyone or anything fake, in and of itself, if you follow my logic.

 

 

 

 

This is really stretching things to retrogressively cover potential dishonesty. The plane of normal sense perception is the plane these photos have been taken on and they have been posted with that way of perceiving 'in mind', they weren't suggested in any way to be other than the representation of the dry phenomena of a vanishing individual in situ and as read.

Edited October 20, 2010 by paul walter

[Apech]

"But it would be true that historical Karmapas are said to..."

 

Would it also be "true" that I just almost nearly wrote "Oooh you're getting very good at this stuff"?

 

Mr Apech, I expect more/better. Why I do is, of course, my own problem. I guess I'm doing it for my own practice. Forgive me for doing it on your forum space/time. Take it as flattery, maybe?

 

Was the "But it would be true" caveat necessary? How about just "Historical Karmapas are said to..."?

 

Either they are said or not said to. In which case adding "...it would be true" is pointless, no?

 

Kate,

 

Thank you for the exegesis! I used to practice Karma Kagyu so I have read a lot about the history of the Karmapas. If I just put ...'they are said to..." I think this would come across that I don't believe it. For instance the Karmapa stood on a stone and left his foot imprints on the stone. Do I believe that? It doesn't matter really. I think I do ... but if it turned out to be just symbolic or metaphoric then it wouldn't make a lot of difference to me.

 

Fundamentally I think that what is real is spirit (or whatever word you choose) and that spirit has infinite potential and is capable of anything. I am not a materialist. Matter is just a bound state of spirit. So I am open minded.

 

My problem (?) is that those photos are just obviously time exposures. That's it.

[Aetherous]

My problem (?) is that those photos are just obviously time exposures. That's it.

 

I'm not so sure about that. I could only admit that if someone took their own photos and achieved a very similar effect.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Kids who learn martial arts are not perceived as a threat to the establishment right here right now (what are they gonna do against HAARP?.. and who cares if they bully their classmates?..). However, where I grew up, and at the time when levels of paranoia maintained by the establishment were higher there than here... once upon the Iron Curtain... Asian martial arts were forbidden to the general population. You had to be a member of the ruling establishment, some kind of special forces or other, to learn that.

 

People with guns and bombs can be raided, scanned, and otherwise revealed as possessing guns and bombs, so the establishment can take the latter away and put the former away. Not so with internal power. It can't be revealed by search and seizure. It can't be suspected from a bulging pocket because it's not in the pocket. It can't be ass probed out of the one possessing it. So if it is real, it is feared. Control systems don't like to deal with anything at all they can't control. Any master who knows he/she has something "they" can't control is likely to be intelligent enough to know not to let "them" know.

 

I see what you're saying, and do agree.... to a certain extent.

[Birch]

"simply by virtue of the fact they have started to believe in the newer possibilities of guardian angels, channelling outer dimensional beings, PLR(Past Lives thing), crystals, feng shui, NLP, reiki, aliens, mushrooms, joined meditation/yoga classes, etc etc. Imo, absolutely fantastic with expanding one's field of interest to inject a bit of needed variety into one's mundane life, but to think these have any spiritual significance in and of themselves might be stretching it a bit."

 

I think it's unfortunate that all of the above be lumped together. I'd rather see them taken apart and given proper attention, but I realise that would be too much to ask, as usual. I also don't seem to have time to become an expert in all of them so I'm afraid I rely on people doing honest work in all of these areas

 

I also disagree with this part you wrote: "to think these have any spiritual significance in and of themselves might be stretching it a bit."

 

I think, well of course they have "spiritual significance"! Anything we do that implies a connection between the seen and the unseen is IMO an attempt to integrate "spirit". Is there a distinction between "spirit" and "mind"? Open for debate.

 

However, adopting a pre-emptive belief in any of them without doing the necessary legwork, well, that's probably pointless and leaves you open to mucho BS, I agree.

 

Edited:typo

Edited October 21, 2010 by Kate

[ralis]

As I indicated earlier, I asked a professional artist who is an expert in the use of Adobe Photo Shop, what his expert opinion on these images is. He stated unequivocally, that the images are definitely photoshopped. He is a very close friend and I have no reason to doubt his expert opinion.

[Aetherous]

I'm still not satisfied. I'd like to see this redone by someone using photoshop. There are things which seem hard to do. For instance, look in the first picture. Kan appears to be fading out in different areas, but the chair behind him isn't at all...it's solid. How could that effect be achieved?

 

I'm not asking for someone to make up an answer...I'm really asking something challenging: emulate the photos accurately and share it here!

 

Until then, I remain a skeptic.