Gold Dragon Body Photos

[Sloppy Zhang]

That's a good point Sloppy! Agreed!

 

So, I have a question for 'ya sloppy.... do you practice something? I'm not sure you do or don't, as I can't clearly remember you mentioning it before, but that just might be my failing memory.

 

If you don't maintain some form of qi-gong/meditation/yoga or occult practice then why not? I seem to feel you're always searching for a system but can't quite make up your mind which one to choose. I may be wrong in that.... as I said, my memory may be failing me.

 

It seems to me that it doesn't make too much difference where one starts, just as long as they start... they may end up in a completely different place/system at some point...but still, they started.

 

If you keep up any practice at some point you will begin to experience things... these things will prove themselves to you. So, let's say for example you're interested in telepathically speaking with someone, even without too much knowledge or practice you can send a simple message.... but you wouldn't necessarily pick up the reply unless you had through some form or meditation stilled the mind.

 

Come on Sloppy, let's stop window shopping and make a choice

 

Two years ago I came across B.K. Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". Been doing that as a primary practice at least every other day since then. Interesting stuff.

 

About a year ago I came across Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics." That was a bit interesting because Bardon pretty much laid out on the table everything I had ever wanted in a system. I struggled for several months to get into it, but it just didn't seem to fit me, or I just didn't seem to fit it. Regardless, I tried to hammer it out for a year, and it didn't work. Kind of took a few steps back in my other practices before I finally decided to quit trying to force it. So I had to give up the thing that I had been searching for so long

 

I continue with Frantzis' material primarily. I supplement with a few other things I'd rather not talk about. I will say that yes, I have had interesting things happen to me. On a near daily basis. It makes me quite happy with myself and quite confident in the direction my personal practice is going.

 

However, if you were to ask me: "do you have anything that is objectively verifiable? Reliably repeatable?" I would have to answer no.

 

If you were to ask me: "is there any logical reason for why you think your practices are going to give you what you want?" I would have to answer no.

 

I fail at the standards that I have set out for my goals of my practice, as well as the standards I have set for others when it comes to the claims I make.

 

Do I think I'll meet my standards one day? Hell yes. Do I know anything else? Hell no.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Two years ago I came across B.K. Frantzis' "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body". Been doing that as a primary practice at least every other day since then. Interesting stuff.

 

About a year ago I came across Franz Bardon's "Initiation Into Hermetics." That was a bit interesting because Bardon pretty much laid out on the table everything I had ever wanted in a system. I struggled for several months to get into it, but it just didn't seem to fit me, or I just didn't seem to fit it. Regardless, I tried to hammer it out for a year, and it didn't work. Kind of took a few steps back in my other practices before I finally decided to quit trying to force it. So I had to give up the thing that I had been searching for so long

 

I continue with Frantzis' material primarily. I supplement with a few other things I'd rather not talk about. I will say that yes, I have had interesting things happen to me. On a near daily basis. It makes me quite happy with myself and quite confident in the direction my personal practice is going.

 

However, if you were to ask me: "do you have anything that is objectively verifiable? Reliably repeatable?" I would have to answer no.

 

If you were to ask me: "is there any logical reason for why you think your practices are going to give you what you want?" I would have to answer no.

 

 

Fair enough...it sounds all good to me.

 

 

I fail at the standards that I have set out for my goals of my practice, as well as the standards I have set for others when it comes to the claims I make.

 

 

Bag the standards, and bag the goals....and say bye bye failure! And you just reminded me to bag the expectation that anyone will ever conform to my expectations.

 

Heroically I have saved the day yet again! Now I gotta' go do some grocery shopping.

 

Peace out Sloppy

[Sloppy Zhang]

[C T]

Thanks for bringing my tridaya link back to life.

 

Well Cow its nice you have taken the time to scan the forum for my posts. But to a trained eye however, it reveals much about ones true nature, motives and current psychological state. All the Symptoms that authentic qigong practice are supposed to correct !

 

Next...

 

I didnt write the tridaya book and dont agree with much it said. But thats not to say its non effective. "They know the lyrics but not the medley".... is an old saying one should think long and hard about.

 

Just because an art does not contain all the trimmings and fancy dogma (as you call it) does not make it any less effective. In fact sometimes the complete opposite will happen.

 

The only reason i posted it here (Tridaya) was because lots of people were asking for it. Since that time however i have sadly discovered that many current members already had the tridaya book, but not one of them had the fortitude or willpower to share with their brothers and sisters.

 

I however was kindly thanked by having my thread deleted & a six day ban put in place for something else that doesnt matter now. But whos complaining.

 

Lastly,

 

Someone of my intellegence you remarked, lol thanks. Again, Constantly displaying a pedantic attitude, Offering fake apologies, whatever, reveals a very different and much darker character then the one you portray on the surface.

 

Cow tao 1 question....do you study qigong & if yes then who do you study with ? If its a secret or you cant tell us then thats ok.

Before you worry about the psychological state of others, perhaps it might be a good idea to reflect back on your own - what's the deal with resorting to jibes and taunts and taking cynical potshots at what you deem to be New Age invaders? Is this reflective of the sort of (not so) high level Qigong you are supposedly cultivating, when the best you can do is deliver cheap, unfounded and fear-based criticism at a group of people (funnily enough one which no one can clearly define) that happens to exist only in your mind? This is a tad paranoid to say the least.

 

To come here and forward a set of esoteric teachings (an incomplete set at that - reminds me of all the half-built and deserted new housing estates that was abandoned when the property bubble went POOF!) openly and now retracting your support of it certainly puts your credibility as an authentic practitioner into question. Imagine if someone new here reads your magnanimous offering (you said you were doing people a favor by posting the latihan, remember?) and then upon attempting to self-experiment (highly dangerous, imo) finds themselves in a quandary, or caught in limbo land, which is quite a common thing for beginners to experience without proper guidance - will you be accepting responsibility for this? Obviously not, seeing you have now mentioned you do not even agree with much of the contents. Why is that, i wonder? I think this is far more serious than any assumed pedantic attitude which (how dare you) have chosen to slap on me. You know why its serious? For one (which is already one too many), it screams of unaccountability... so please excuse me if i for one am not interested in whatever you are 'selling' here... lordy, no thanks. And trust me, this irresponsible action of yours, posting this Tenaga Dalam thing, says that you are definitely not in the position to judge my character, instead, might be good to first of all have a look at your own.

 

And btw, that compliment was meant for Sloppy - and it was sincerely made, because i know he is highly intelligent, although i have yet to make, due to lack of a tenacious disposition, a strong comparative case to link intelligence, gullibility and sheer stupidity as simultaneously present all at the one time, nonetheless i suspect it does happen every so often to the best of us. But its only a suspicion so far, so please ignore this remark for now.

 

And finally, the only Qigong that i possess(?) is the one my mom gave me at birth... oops, this isnt quite right, is it? Hmm, back to the drawing board, as Ninpo had wisely done.

 

Peace, man, not war. (before you jump to any elitist conclusions, let me just say i have not come from your [limited] idea of the hippie culture, either)

 

Flower power to all! (pic of daisy here?)

Edited October 29, 2010 by CowTao

[TheTaoBum]

What on earth are you talking about cowtao. You give the illusion the Tridaya manual is some top secret manual lol. Its nothing but common knowledge to silat and serious qigong students etc.

 

Instead You carry on like i have revealed the holy grail or something.

 

For the last time i only posted it because there were many requests. Some people dont have the $300 to lash out on an inner power booklet.

 

What about all the people who have benefit from practicing the tridaya course.

 

One gentleman mentioned the breathing techniques cured him of lung cancer and as a result was able to regain working again blah blah blah.

 

So to sit here and not acknowledge the positive results of the tridaya post (and believe me sunshine there are many) again shows a very childish attitude.

 

The breathing techniques described in the tridaya booklet are the basis of many tenaga dalam breathing techniques and styles ! Im lost for words by your comments and now realize just what kind of a person im dealing with.

 

I will no longer continue going back & forward in this conversation.

Edited October 29, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[TheTaoBum]

double post.

Edited October 29, 2010 by TheTaoBum

[forestofclarity]

I have attached a mysterious photo of myself meditating at dawn. Notice the auric light coming from my head. This can only come through high level practice.

[Aetherous]

[Aetherous]

Oh yeah, -O-,

 

The Colonels experience of me sitting in the trees is definitely not mine.

 

Seeing something physically happening, unless you're hallucinating, would be an objective event.

 

The exercises you were doing may have not turned you invisible, so that you could be aware of it, but may have had the effect of making you appear invisible. This I consider to be a legitimate siddhi of a lower level, although not the same as what's in Kan's pictures.

[Owledge]

Commentary on the -O- chornicles

I'm splitting the post cause it's just too hard on the eyes

 

...

 

Not that I agree or disagree with anything you said, but that was some nice display of some ideas that I, too, had (in a more vague way). Like a growing suspicion, a feeling that 'something is wrong here'. But I also suspect that the whole truth is much more wacky, because there seem to really be cases of pretty solid influence of the inner world in the outer world.

 

I'd like to add a comment about the "metaphor" thing: Could it be that quite a lot of people have a problem with saying they don't know? I really wonder why spiritual people phrase assumptions or metaphors like they were hard fact.

 

About the Colonel's experience: Sure you didn't turn invisible? If it was based on heightened vibrational level, I guess you yourself might not have seen you that way. Also, if it was 'only sitting in awareness', maybe you don't believe it to have happened because it happened when you didn't expect it at all, which would be consistent with what's so often said about these things: Stop expecting anything, then stuff will happen. Also, maybe the teacher helped those phenomena to manifest.

 

@forestofemptiness

In your photo you were apparently doing the Flash practice of the Canon Powershot system. It seems like a surge of pure light energy caused a manifestation on the threshold to another realm.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Hardyg

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

I have attached a mysterious photo of myself meditating at dawn. Notice the auric light coming from my head. This can only come through high level practice.

 

 

could it be....is it...is it......possible!!!

 

My God, you've only gone and bloody cracked it!

 

I think you may get the pulitzer prize with that one, come to think of it, I think the pulitzer is for writing, but hot damn it, what the hell, you're crossing dimensions with that photo anyway!

 

Bravo!!!

[Lucky7Strikes]

The outer world is the past's manifestation of habit energies of the inner world. There is not much of a difference, only timeliness. Like you imagine unicorns during the day then experience them as "real" in the dream. You are mentally hungry so you move your body and eat food, a physical manifestation...

 

Your mentality conditions your physical actions and the coming physical reality. This is really something taken for granted by us in everyday reactions. No such thing as objective reality, only a shared dream!

 

2 Cents...

[Sloppy Zhang]

Sloppy,

 

"Opening the Energy Gates of the Body" isn't a good book to be learning from if you want siddhis. No wonder you're dissatisfied!

 

So your suggestion for siddhi learning is....?

[Sloppy Zhang]

.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Aetherous]

Well for a more nonbiased source...read the 3rd part of the Yoga Sutras by Patanjali, which deals with samyama. I like the translation by Alistair Shearer. There it lists things to focus on or do (which many systems include), which will develop siddhis.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Well for a more nonbiased source...read the 3rd part of the Yoga Sutras by Patanjali, which deals with samyama. I like the translation by Alistair Shearer. There it lists things to focus on or do (which many systems include), which will develop siddhis.

 

Thanks for the recommendation

 

And I am still interesting in what you have to say regarding this:

 

Standards...haha!

 

Your choice of how you want to spend your time!

 

I'm just in a pretty wrathful mood tonight, so, ducking out now before I really speak my mind...

 

Again, it is a choice of how I want to spend my time, and if anyone has any valid criticisms or alternative suggestions, I'd be happy to hear them.

Edited October 29, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[-O-]

-O-,

 

 

 

I agree with this...but what happens when unusual experiences are happening in accordance with this objective physical reality...not just in inner "reality"? I think that's really what people are looking to discuss.

 

For instance, (if they're real) the Kan pictures aren't simply an inner reality manifestation...

 

.....Seeing something physically happening, unless you're hallucinating, would be an objective event.

 

The exercises you were doing may have not turned you invisible, so that you could be aware of it, but may have had the effect of making you appear invisible. This I consider to be a legitimate siddhi of a lower level, although not the same as what's in Kan's pictures.

 

What I physically experience is not necessarily indication of what is physically occurring. I have had the odd experience or two where I could not sincerely say that I could distinguish between the two by normal physical means.... meaning I could 'see' it as clearly as I see my hands on the keyboard - however I knew that it was not physically present... that anyone else in the room would see it. Like Paul said - does it occur with the viewer of the viewed. Statements like "people who are not ready won't see it" implies, although intended by the viewed, the occurrence lies with the viewer.

 

But whether it is happening 'out there' or 'in here' isn't the only nor the most important question. There is no means for you or me to absolutely verify if it happened 'out there' (and if it happened 'in here' you could not by nature ever accomplish this type of verification)... The questions I would focus on are more along the lines of "what happened here, what are the qualities of it, what are the outcomes, how much of my interpretation is based on physical senses, how much on belief and past experience" etc and do so without editing, denying information, but also not adding information that was not there in the original event.

 

Quite often with these types of experiences - the difficulty is in reconciling conflicting information and to generalize we tend to either add more information (make up stuff like theories) or edit out information (as denial or irrelevance) important information.

 

For me to approach the Colonel as a goof ball hallucinating in the woods, conflicts with other information that I have of him, like he is a capable man, able to handle stress... no indications of something wrong with his brain, no indication of a driving need to assert a belief... seemed a reasonable bloke. So to say he was off his rocker is to ignore his experience of the event.

However your paragraph that begins with "The exercises you were doing may have not...." I see as an attempt to reconcile these conflicts in the other direction. It is to add more properties to meditative theory to accommodate for the contradictions... I think soooooo much of new age and old age theories are just that. and these seem quite reasonable because they are observable, they are applicable... but they are also adding data onto of events where that data was not there before. In short the data added exists only in the interpretations of the events... it is the interpretation of the event that makes these theories appear to be observable.

 

The fact is I don't know what he experienced and any theory I pose about it is just another interpretation of events by either adding or withdrawing information. If I do not edit out information and do not add information onto of the events it simple comes down to "I know what I experienced, I don't know what he did." It is the only responsible answer. To say I might have gone invisible but was not aware of it is not an honest answer because that was not my experience of events. To interpret it this way reveals no new information to me. (there is a key to interpretive systems in that statement). To hold to an interpretation which has me as either invisible or the Colonel insane disrespects and damages the awareness I have. It is to grasp some of the awareness and twist it, or push out other parts of awareness. To me this is damaging to awareness.

 

 

 

(also I'm inclined to not believe the photos... but damn, I just can't imagine Kan or Max consciously doing that - interpreting a shadow image of a length of cordage along the bottom of an image can be forgiven as a misunderstanding but these other photos, if faked - would have to be done intentionally and that is the only point that I have a hard time with).

 

Not that I agree or disagree with anything you said, but that was some nice display of some ideas that I, too, had (in a more vague way). Like a growing suspicion, a feeling that 'something is wrong here'. But I also suspect that the whole truth is much more wacky, because there seem to really be cases of pretty solid influence of the inner world in the outer world.

First off, Hardyg - I have treated you poorly in the past and owe you an apology. I am sorry for calling you a 'dick' a while back.

 

When I say "know the difference in How these two exist" is not to say that these two realms are mutually exclusive. For instance: I love my daughter. She is everything I didn't know I wanted. I thought I knew what love was before she was born (and I was partial, or mostly correct) however I can only now say, after she was born, that I truly know what love is. The moment of her birth was the moment that Love was fully and completely realized for me... my love for my daughter is as real as anything in the physical world, however it does not exist the same way that say my chair exists.

 

They both exist, they are both equally real, not just for me... my love for her does not end at the boundary of my mind. The love for my daughter is a real, true object in the world that you live in as well. It is not a perception, nor an interpretation. It exists. It does not exist as physical matter like my chair. It is not a solid object that can be seen by the eyes, or smelled with the nose. It is intangible. If you tried to 'prove' my love for her all you would be left with is some observable behaviour that I exhibit when she is around - and then interpret that as "love" by some sort of measure.... but regardless of that interpretation this love does exist - with or without observations of others and for that matter myself.

 

When I am not feeling love, but rather feeling frustration or anger (because I feel that too under certain circumstances) my love for her does not end, but the behaviour that I would exhibit would be very different than when I'm feeling love. To observe my behaviour with her, when I'm angry with her, as love would mean having a different way of interpreting that behaviour so that the conclusion is 'love'.

 

 

Another good example is the reality of the relationship of quantities... or in shorter terms - numbers. Before anyone ever existed to be able to call nine things "nine" the quantity of nine existed. Before there were hands to pick up nine objects and collected them into one group (which we now call nine), the relationship of nine things existed. In fact it existed as soon as there were nine "things" in the universe, which IMO was a little while before there was someone around to observe "nine things". Nine does not cease to exist when we take one object way - it just changes from the actualization of nine things into the potential for nine things (and at that moment eight moves from a potential into an actualization).

 

I'd like to add a comment about the "metaphor" thing: Could it be that quite a lot of people have a problem with saying they don't know? I really wonder why spiritual people phrase assumptions or metaphors like they were hard fact.

 

I agree and I am guilty of doing this in the past.

 

About the Colonel's experience: Sure you didn't turn invisible? If it was based on heightened vibrational level, I guess you yourself might not have seen you that way. Also, if it was 'only sitting in awareness', maybe you don't believe it to have happened because it happened when you didn't expect it at all, which would be consistent with what's so often said about these things: Stop expecting anything, then stuff will happen. Also, maybe the teacher helped those phenomena to manifest.

 

 

This is adding information onto of events that were not present at the moment of the event. It is re-interpreting the events to allow for the collapse of inner and outer. This is how contradictory and IMO false explanations start out.... it is not born of any poor or misaligned intention - it is simply an effort to reconcile the conflict - to realize the mystery, in teacher speak. But when I say it is a collapse of the two, or an interpretation does not mean that the paradox shouldn't be engaged. We should try to reconcile the conflict - but without compromising the initial information and experience, without twisting the experience into something that it was not at the moment it happened..... If a hundred people saw me disappear does not change that this was not my experience of the event. In this case my experience was the normal one.... perhaps another -o- file might be appropriate where the experience was not so normal.

 

 

The outer world is the past's manifestation of habit energies of the inner world. There is not much of a difference, only timeliness. Like you imagine unicorns during the day then experience them as "real" in the dream. You are mentally hungry so you move your body and eat food, a physical manifestation...

 

Your mentality conditions your physical actions and the coming physical reality. This is really something taken for granted by us in everyday reactions. No such thing as objective reality, only a shared dream!

 

2 Cents...

 

I believe the Earth existed before I was around to form mental conditions and habits. I believe the earth was here before man was here to create it with habit energies. So the earth as a physical manifestation is to ignore that I was born to a world that existed prior to me becoming conscious of it. I have no indication in experience of awareness to believe differently.

 

I am not saying you are wrong nor that you statement is not applicable in allot of ways... but "past's manifestation's". "habit energies" etc. for me would be something that needs to be created (not revealed) for the sole purpose of interpreting the inner world as the only world and that is simply not what is occurring in awareness. And those creations would exist as long as the interpretation was held.... they exist in a particular part of the inner realm, reality that exist because of choice or consensus (for example money) which are asserted as physical objects, natural laws etc.

 

Okay - outer, physical reality of money is that it is paper with ink. Its intrinsic value as a physical object is nothing more than this. It has value to say... use to light a fire, or wipe your a@#... but we all know and live with the reality that money as a very different value. And that value exists and it is real, but it exists and is real in the realm of consensus. Whether I choose as an individual that money as no value does not change the reality of its role in society... on the other hand if society's consensus of the value of a currencey does change - then the value of it does, in reality change.

 

Similar to this there is a part of this inner reality that exist and is real simply because we choose to believe it this way. Its sole reality lies with our interpretation and as long as that interpretation is in place then it is real in our experience.... this is what we call "meaning". What an experience means to you is soly and entirely up to you. How you interpret an experience, and what impact that has on you lies totally within your sovereignty. No one else’s. The only caveat is when we exercise this aspect of reality in other areas where it is not applicable (like in the example of the person who chooses that money has no value).

 

This is what I mean about collapsing and misunderstanding one from the other.... and when teacher or therapist, or parent or friend has more influence (or authority) on how you interpret your life, or veto your view for their more "advanced" view is an invasion if what I believe to be our sacred sovereignty. A sovereignty that we are responsible for and need to care for and be totally responsible for - even if that means pushing back and being disrespectful to a teacher or lineage. There is far more at stake with this sovereignty then most are aware of... thus why I call it a rape.

Edited October 29, 2010 by -O-

[Aetherous]

The fact is I don't know what he experienced and any theory I pose about it is just another interpretation of events by either adding or withdrawing information. If I do not edit out information and do not add information onto of the events it simple comes down to "I know what I experienced, I don't know what he did." It is the only responsible answer. To say I might have gone invisible but was not aware of it is not an honest answer because that was not my experience of events. To interpret it this way reveals no new information to me. (there is a key to interpretive systems in that statement). To hold to an interpretation which has me as either invisible or the Colonel insane disrespects and damages the awareness I have. It is to grasp some of the awareness and twist it, or push out other parts of awareness. To me this is damaging to awareness.

 

I don't see a point in refusing the connect the dots. He saw you disappear, and you weren't aware of it. There are possibilities (some of which you listed) for why this could be, and acknowledging them without truly knowing what happened is what I consider to be honest.

 

I don't understand "damaging to awareness", or how acknowledging possibilities means that the awareness is twisted or pushed out.

[-O-]

I don't see a point in refusing the connect the dots. He saw you disappear, and you weren't aware of it. There are possibilities (some of which you listed) for why this could be, and acknowledging them without truly knowing what happened is what I consider to be honest.

 

I don't understand "damaging to awareness", or how acknowledging possibilities means that the awareness is twisted or pushed out.

 

 

I think we should acknowledge possibilites and definatly engage them, especailly when it is a paradox or a contradiction. For me this has afforded the most growth.

 

When I say damaging awareness what I'm getting at is.... say you ignore important information. Say I ignored the fact that I didn't directly experience what the Colonel did and if I keep doing this then there is comes a point where the interpretation of awareness becomes more of a consideration than what is in awareness. When this happens it opens a flood gate to make things out to be whatever you want regardless of what is happening in awareness... at this point the endevour changes from the persuit of truth to wishfullfillment..... An example of this for me, is what happened with philip when Max 'returned" from the dead. It was too much to bare, IMHO, and the methods he had learned for interpreting inner meditative experiences where then used to push out and protect him from an outer expereince which was painful. His interpretation insisted on adding in information that was simply not there - things like dopplegangers... as teachers this is, again IMHO, the most important thing to teach. The equinamity of all information during the interpretation....

 

If we don't attempt to form an interpretation then there is no possibility of growth or greater awareness. The interpretation is what brings information we were not aware of before into conscious awareness to be experienced... in philips case the new information is not being revealed but rather negated. This is a restriction to awareness not an expansion.

 

It becomes damaging beause the mind then needs to maintain and assert the interpretation as "more real" than what is occuring with in awareness and then over time the mind will naturally not weight information from awareness as important - fantasy can then take over reality - the inner and outer are then out of balance.

Edited October 29, 2010 by -O-

[-O-]

More -O- Files

There are possibilities (some of which you listed) for why this could be, and acknowledging them without truly knowing what happened is what I consider to be honest.

 

 

The Colonel Ammendment

Saying "I don't know what he experienced" is not the whole story. It is a statement pertaining specifically to the Colonel's experience.

 

So after this happened I was left with on one hand what was my very normal experience, on the other the testimony of the Colonel. And as I said to choose one over the other was not showing any forward movement.

 

So how could one on hand I be sitting in full view of another person and they not be able to see me?

How is this possible without rewritting the laws of physics, proclaiming unintention enlightment etc.

 

Well the purpose of the exercise we were doing was to effect the awareness of others over a distance. In my particular case the "intention" to instill in another was "You don't see me". Well what a great result to have with the Colonel hey! In short what was an interpretation that then lead to a few other great insights into awareness and consciousness was that his mind was "masked" of my presence... but the particular growth for me was more of a tactile "feel" - kind of like the begining of a mood shift - that became a precursor to know when another consciousness was present or having an effect on my own... but that is because this experience ties into other experiences and I've written too much already.

Edited October 29, 2010 by -O-

[freeform]

when teacher or therapist, or parent or friend has more influence (or authority) on how you interpret your life, or veto your view for their more "advanced" view is an invasion if what I believe to be our sacred sovereignty. A sovereignty that we are responsible for and need to care for and be totally responsible for - even if that means pushing back and being disrespectful to a teacher or lineage. There is far more at stake with this sovereignty then most are aware of... thus why I call it a rape.

 

I have a difficulty understanding what you mean here.

 

Are you saying your interpretation has a sovereignty?

 

Why?

 

So you see grass and you say "the grass is green" (I consider this an interpretation - the grass has no innate quality of 'greenness' - it's the interplay between your particular sensory modalities and 'the grass' that creates the greenness.)... Someone else comes and says "erm - no - the grass is blue-grey" - This is rape?

 

I guess it's rape only if you uphold your particular view as the correct one - the sacred, sovereign 'truth'...

 

Would you not rather change your view, how you're seeing, to accept that the grass really is 'blue-grey'? Just for the entertainment of it? This would be making love rather than getting raped, no?

 

Why would you choose rape over love-making?

 

If you're willing to make love with every way of seeing grass, surely the world becomes a bigger, more interesting playground? I mean I see your point in a way - but it only makes sense if you're happy to get stuck on one particular interpretation - why not make the interpretation fluid? I guess if suddenly you went "ah - well if HE says it's blue grey - then it must be so - I'll stick with that"...

 

The beauty of our mind is that we can create whatever we want with it - not for some specific outcome that we want to stick with, but just for play! The more love you make - the more interpretations you allow - the bigger the world becomes - the less stuck your mind gets.

 

The modern person loves getting stuck. We love trying to reach some absolute truth. But as far as I can tell the world keeps moving, shifting, changing. If we try to remain stationary in a moving universe we engage in a battle we'll never win.

 

It's difficult for the modern person to hold a contradiction - we want to collapse to one or the other. Like Schrodinger's cat - maybe you were invisible and visible at the same time. I can hold both 'the photos show golden dragon body manifesting' and 'the photos show the effect of a slow shutter speed' - and not lean one way or another... it's certainly more fun not coming to conclusions - or rather coming to two different/competing conclusions at the same time. Light is both particles and waves - there are experiments that prove one and disprove the other - for both sides - which one is the sacred, sovereign truth?!

[Sloppy Zhang]

I guess if suddenly you went "ah - well if HE says it's blue grey - then it must be so - I'll stick with that"...

 

Don't mean to speak for -O-, but these kinds of things are how I interpret -O-'s point.

 

Like, if you are painting a picture, and make the grass green. Then the teacher comes by and says, "no, your grass should be blue grey." And you go, "oh, well I thought it'd be green, but if you say it's blue grey, then I'll make it." And then you go around painting blue grey grass. And the whole reason you did it was because someone told you to.

 

Sure, you can choose to "make love" to someone else's view. But that brings a level of awareness on your part of what you are doing- you see another view, and choose to follow along with it because of what YOU decide to do. There are people who have ideas IMPOSED on them, and follow along because of that imposition, and I think that's where the term "rape" came into play.

 

But again, that's just my interpretation.

 

But as far as I can tell the world keeps moving, shifting, changing. If we try to remain stationary in a moving universe we engage in a battle we'll never win.

 

That's how I see it as well.

[-O-]

I have a difficulty understanding what you mean here.

 

Are you saying your interpretation has a sovereignty?

 

Why?

 

What I'm saying is there is a whole realm of our reality that exists simply because of our choice to see it that way. Now I'm not saying if someone poses a different choice that it is rape of an attempt at it rape, nor am I saying that we should be rigid of stuck and should stay gaurded in that stance.... not at all. I'm surprised that you come to that conclusion.

 

 

 

 

 

So you see grass and you say "the grass is green" (I consider this an interpretation - the grass has no innate quality of 'greenness' - it's the interplay between your particular sensory modalities and 'the grass' that creates the greenness.)... Someone else comes and says "erm - no - the grass is blue-grey" - This is rape?

 

 

However 'green' is a sensory experience and I think I conveyed elsewhere that this is about appling systems of interpretation appropriatly... however this will work as an example and I will keep it in the context above.

 

Say the student sees the grass as green. The teachers says no the grass is blue-grey. The student is left in a particularly tough spot... the contradition between what the teacher say and what is happening clearly in the students perception are in conflict.

 

Now the choice has to be made between choosing what the teachers says as the reality of the grass, or to choose what is occuring with in his/her's own sensory awareness. If the student sticks to his own awareness then what is the point of having the teacher. If he chosses the teachers perception over his own awareness then were is the student left to stand? IMO they would then be dependant on the teacher as the main means to qualify their reality, at this point they have handed over the keys for the house over to the teacher.

 

What I am saying is a teacher, lineage etc assertion that what occurs in our own expereince to be illusion or whatever is a violation of what is truly the only thing we have souvereignty over - our own awareness. And this sets the person up to begin to ignore or invalidate their own awareness and experience.

 

Here is another example - I've seen this happen twice. Student says -"I have an issue with food and really want to work through it". Teacher says "you were molested by your father and you eat to get fat to keep his interest away from you - weight is safety to you until you face your supressed memories of you father you will not be free". Up until this point the person has never had this kind of experience with her father. She loved him. There is no experience of violation.

 

However, if we replace green grass with 'pedophile father' and the person then picks up the teachers perspective and consider this interpretation as more valid, more real than her own experience of her father, what do you think will happen? Perhaps reinterpreting her past as her father being a preditor?

 

When we hand over that kind of power to another person then I believe we are being irresponsible with the awareness we have been given. We can consider that the teacher is right, we can try it on, sincerely explore it etc... but at the end of the day it is I that has to decide what it is for me.

 

So I get urked when I hear things like "you didn't experience it because you are not ready". Not because of the "not ready part" but because of this assumed authority as to what is reality and what is not. To stand with that kind of power over someone and then to blatantly qualify their experience for them I see as a violation of the highest sort so I use a strong term like rape.

 

I guess it's rape only if you up hold your particular view as the correct one - the sacred, sovereign 'truth'...

 

 

 

 

...- which one is the sacred, sovereign truth?!

 

I am using the word soveriegn in the context of it being the independant authority over my own awareness, not of All awarenes. The truth of what or how my life unfolds for me is mine - not yours or anyone elses. However if another is proposing their take on reality as the correct, sacred, 'sovereign truth' for me then yes it is IMO.

Edited October 29, 2010 by -O-

[-O-]

Don't mean to speak for -O-, but these kinds of things are how I interpret -O-'s point.

 

Like, if you are painting a picture, and make the grass green. Then the teacher comes by and says, "no, your grass should be blue grey." And you go, "oh, well I thought it'd be green, but if you say it's blue grey, then I'll make it." And then you go around painting blue grey grass. And the whole reason you did it was because someone told you to.

 

Sure, you can choose to "make love" to someone else's view. But that brings a level of awareness on your part of what you are doing- you see another view, and choose to follow along with it because of what YOU decide to do. There are people who have ideas IMPOSED on them, and follow along because of that imposition, and I think that's where the term "rape" came into play.

 

But again, that's just my interpretation.

 

 

 

That's how I see it as well.

 

 

Man, I could of saved allot of typing if I saw this first!

[Owledge]

The Colonel Ammendment

 

...

 

Would have been nice to reveal this crucially relevant information in the first place.