Gold Dragon Body Photos

[ralis]

I also ran the photo through a program that detects editing mathematically. It came to the same conclusion I did. You can see the results here:

 

Results

 

Thanks for taking the time to analyze those images! I am baffled as to why they would post these. Any image on the net can and may come under intense scrutiny.

[gendao]

I also ran the photo through a program that detects editing mathematically. It came to the same conclusion I did. You can see the results here:

 

Results

It says the following editors may have been detected:

 

The following IJG-based editors also match this signature:

GIMP

IrfanView

idImager

FastStone Image Viewer

NeatImage

Paint.NET

Photomatix

XnView

 

But no Photoshop listed...although obviously some editor was used to at least resize these photos down.

(I have no idea how to interpret the other data on there.)

And here's the zafu Kan was sitting on. Is that the "fake" shadow on the bottom left you were referring to?

 

Anyhow, since these pics were resized down, it's even more pointless to analyze them since they won't contain the original metadata either - yet are even smaller...

 

I also didn't see the photos of him sitting in the chair in their album..

[simply puzzled]

But no Photoshop listed...although obviously some editor was used to at least resize these photos down.

(I have no idea how to interpret the other data on there.)

 

Hey Vortex. I went ahead and used GIMP (probably the program used to doctor this photo) to crop and resize one of my photos, analyzed it, and post the results here. You can see the difference in the results returned - namely, you see evidence of compression but *not of doctoring*.

 

Anyhow, since these pics were resized down, it's even more pointless to analyze them since they won't contain the original metadata either - yet are even smaller...

 

No, it's really not. To someone like myself who has both 'shopped and looked at other people's 'shops literally hundreds of times, there is a lot of evidence. Moreover, you can resize it down, but that can't fool the algorithms used by detection software.

 

And here's the zafu Kan was sitting on. Is that the "fake" shadow on the bottom left you were referring to?

 

Yes. Now explain to me how a 3" high zafu can cast a shadow that goes 2' up a wall without a light at the base of it, and we'll be all set, except for the brushed in details, algorithms, hard-edged details of multiple people that look exactly like photos of multiple shots put together with gradients added and opacities reduced, and other little things that look "off" to my eye but I don't know how to put into words.

 

I mean, I don't want to be rude, but please believe me when I say that I really know what I'm doing. If we want to be serious about mystical claims, we need to be skeptics. I'm not a materialist. I do believe in deities, qi, astral travel, and many other things that science, not just the science we have today but science as a discipline, is unequipped to handle. But, if we go down that road, we need to be intensely skeptical about the claims made.

 

And looking at these photos, I see absolutely no reason to think they are genuine. Even though I think I've showed that these are fake, I think the burden of proof is really on the people taking the photos to show they aren't. For example, even a $100 camera can take quite good video, and video is much harder to fake. It takes more powerful computers, more powerful software, much more education, and much more time than 'shopping a still. If these are real, why not post videos? They're already using flash which would support it. Why not have The Amazing Randi come and take pictures and get $1 million for the trouble? Why not at least post .raw files for the world to see?

 

And I think the answer is obvious: because these are fakes. Because this is just one more carni looking to lead the credulous from the path of true Dao.

[simply puzzled]

The response to my request for originals:

 

I am sorry that you are spending your time trying to de-bunk photos. If

you want the original you need to ask Kan. For those who do their practice

and have meet Kan they know that they are real. We do not have to justify

anything for you or for the tao bums who have nothing better to do but

create drama for people, talk bad about people and what they teach.

 

Believe what you will and please do not contact us any further on this

subject. We are not here to make people believe in something or not, nor

to make people accept or not accept, these things are normal effects of

spiritual practices and many people throughout the world have these same

things happening to themselves or others they know.

 

If your seeking truths then do your own practices and look within, after

opening yourself you may find your own answers then you will see some form

of outer manifestation occur.

 

Good luck on your journey, and one day meet kan,

 

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[ralis]

The response to my request for originals:

 

I am sorry that you are spending your time trying to de-bunk photos. If

you want the original you need to ask Kan. For those who do their practice

and have meet Kan they know that they are real. We do not have to justify

anything for you or for the tao bums who have nothing better to do but

create drama for people, talk bad about people and what they teach.

 

Believe what you will and please do not contact us any further on this

subject. We are not here to make people believe in something or not, nor

to make people accept or not accept, these things are normal effects of

spiritual practices and many people throughout the world have these same

things happening to themselves or others they know.

 

If your seeking truths then do your own practices and look within, after

opening yourself you may find your own answers then you will see some form

of outer manifestation occur.

 

Good luck on your journey, and one day meet kan,

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:

Unless expressly stated otherwise, this message is confidential and may be

privileged.

It is intended for the addressee(s) only. Access to this E-mail by anyone

else is unauthorized.

If you are not an addressee, any disclosure or copying of the contents of

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Did you write to the Portland Center?

[simply puzzled]

Did you write to the Portland Center?

 

I wrote to the website that the original poster linked to: Primordial Alchemist.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

 

If they are faked, it seems unlikely that it's just Kan moving at a slow shutter speed. His body is seeming to disappear in a random way that would be impossible to do using that method. How do his legs appear fairly solid, while his face is completely gone? This would have to be photo-shopped in the way Ralis described in order to achieve that effect (cutting Kan out, fading his image in different areas, blending it back with the image of the chair).

 

 

No, the head is disappearing because the head is moving faster than the legs which is why there is more blur and even completely disappearing . It's NOT impossible to do, it's common. look at the picture I took and posted before of the car, exactly the same principle and technique.

 

This photo absolutely does NOT need to be photoshopped. In fact it would be a real pain in the ass to alter it on photoshop for the exact reasons you just mentioned...and I have used photoshop extensively to fine touch some of my own photos. It would take hours to do that on photoshop but about 5 minutes to do it badly with a camera(like those).

 

 

But then if you cut Kan out, how does the chair which was behind Kan appear solid? You would have to take another photo without Kan, and blend the empty chair back into the original picture.

 

 

You don't need photoshop for that. It was done with an SLR on manual. Therefore the chair looks solid.

 

See below, this is another I took. Look at the numbers behind the man walking. Solid. Obviously this mans whole body was moving at the same speed so you do not have one part that is clear. To get a clear picture of one part of the body all I would have to do is get you to sit and stand up several times, your legs would be picked up by the camera whereas the rest of your body wouldn't be, slower the shutter speed the less it would pick up.

 

By the way, the below example is no shining example of photography, I took it hand held at a slow shutter speed so there is some blur in the background. Easily remedied with a tripod.

 

 

 

 

It's actually pretty tricky.

 

 

It's not. I could teach you to be able to do the same with the right equipment in under 5 minutes and so could any photography student who had been studying the subject for around 3 months or less, depending on the teachers syllabus.

 

 

To actually emulate this effect would require a professional. Don't believe me? Try it yourself using whatever photography skills you have, and see if you can achieve the same thing...

 

 

Photography students and professionals emulate this everyday around the world, but they are not trying to pass it off as something it's not. It's truly a very very simple technique and effect Scotty.

 

The fact that as the set of pictures progresses the light is more and more apparent is a clear indication of the shutter speed being reduced, hence more and more light getting into the lense and less of the persons body being picked up. Had the photographer been a professional, or at the very least competent, the exposure for each picture would have looked to the human eye to be the same. A simple interplay between the shutter speed and the aperture is all that would be necessary. A good photographer would have done that.... that would have been more believable.

 

Edit/ps: Look at the foot of the guy....completely solid and clear because it's not moving. Same same.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that

[simply puzzled]

See below, this is another I took. Look at the numbers behind the man walking. Solid. Obviously this mans whole body was moving at the same speed so you do not have one part that is clear. To get a clear picture of one part of the body all I would have to do is get you to sit and stand up several times, your legs would be picked up by the camera whereas the rest of your body wouldn't be, slower the shutter speed the less it would pick up.

 

I see what you mean. I still believe they were retouched to clean them up, add in a bit of an aura effect, etc, but moving at a high speed with a slow shutter makes more sense than the multiple shots combined with gradients. Thank you for the explanation.

Edited October 22, 2010 by simply puzzled

[Guest paul walter]

If they are faked, it seems unlikely that it's just Kan moving at a slow shutter speed. His body is seeming to disappear in a random way that would be impossible to do using that method. How do his legs appear fairly solid, while his face is completely gone? This would have to be photo-shopped in the way Ralis described in order to achieve that effect (cutting Kan out, fading his image in different areas, blending it back with the image of the chair).

 

But then if you cut Kan out, how does the chair which was behind Kan appear solid? You would have to take another photo without Kan, and blend the empty chair back into the original picture.

 

It's actually pretty tricky.

 

To actually emulate this effect would require a professional. Don't believe me? Try it yourself using whatever photography skills you have, and see if you can achieve the same thing...

 

 

You so want to believe don't you . The legs are the things that don't move much in relation to the upper body as one gets out of a chair, therefore they register more 'solid' since they are in a more limited range than that which is moving and therefore blurring. All your posts actually point to out how it was done-they actually reveal the technical give-aways but you're seeing it's 'opposite'. Reminds me of part of an interview with Deepak Chopra on youtube where he goes through ALL the things relating to Barack Obama that are obviously part of an immense ploy/conspiracy on our perceptions and states them all as 'virtues' one by one thus falling right into the trap set by the ones perptrating The Obama Deception .

[Guest paul walter]

The response to my request for originals:

 

I am sorry that you are spending your time trying to de-bunk photos. If

you want the original you need to ask Kan. For those who do their practice

and have meet Kan they know that they are real. We do not have to justify

anything for you or for the tao bums who have nothing better to do but

create drama for people, talk bad about people and what they teach.

 

Believe what you will and please do not contact us any further on this

subject. We are not here to make people believe in something or not, nor

to make people accept or not accept, these things are normal effects of

spiritual practices and many people throughout the world have these same

things happening to themselves or others they know.

 

If your seeking truths then do your own practices and look within, after

opening yourself you may find your own answers then you will see some form

of outer manifestation occur.

 

Good luck on your journey, and one day meet kan,

 

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:

Unless expressly stated otherwise, this message is confidential and may be

privileged.

It is intended for the addressee(s) only. Access to this E-mail by anyone

else is unauthorized.

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Nice touch SP Remember people, look "within"

Edited October 22, 2010 by paul walter

[Aetherous]

You so want to believe don't you .

 

I really don't. It'd be much easier for me to think I am accomplishing great things in my practice, and not have to look up to the high task of disappearing in order to be truly accomplished. It puts me in my place. More work to do...shit!

 

I'm not simply a Kunluner. I'm a Scott first of all. So just because I'm arguing against your point of view, please don't lump me into some category. I'm a very skeptical person, and stand on my own when it comes down to it. My whole point here is to actually question...not just assume we've debunked it, when people have only offered simple explanations, and move on...in my opinion, so far nothing has been shown to be fake. There have just been some decent arguments.

 

What I want to see is someone who will post photos of themselves or a friend achieving the same effect. Not a similar effect, as ninpo just posted above. I don't believe that a slow shutter speed could cause the effect that was in Kan's tea pictures. His arm is see through, and there's no evidence of him moving it. His head is completely gone. His feet appear to be off the ground and relaxed, meaning that he would have to be moving his head wildly in order to not be seen while keeping the feet in that position...challenging!

 

This would HAVE to be photoshopped.

 

There are more things which make it questionable...

 

I've taken a few photography classes, myself. So if you want to try and prove your point, emulate the photos accurately...don't just tell me about how I don't know anything.

 

The fact that as the set of pictures progresses the light is more and more apparent is a clear indication of the shutter speed being reduced, hence more and more light getting into the lense and less of the persons body being picked up. Had the photographer been a professional, or at the very least competent, the exposure for each picture would have looked to the human eye to be the same. A simple interplay between the shutter speed and the aperture is all that would be necessary. A good photographer would have done that.... that would have been more believable.

 

This is a potentially good point.

[gendao]

simply puzzled - Thanks for your input! I'm going to admit that your technical analysis is going over my head at this point though so I personally cannot comment any further on it...lol.

No, the head is disappearing because the head is moving faster than the legs which is why there is more blur and even completely disappearing . It's NOT impossible to do, it's common. look at the picture I took and posted before of the car, exactly the same principle and technique.

 

But, your picture disproves your claim.

 

His head is moving fast...which only then leaves a longer visible blur. Sort of like these previous examples:

Drill team

Car

 

Now, in all these examples, all parts of these objects are fairly equally blurred - since they are all moving at about the same velocity. So, if this was simply a long exposure, Kan's transparent upper half would have to have been moving (thrashing) separately at a much faster rate than his lower half. I don't think this would be easy to do sitting down in a chair.. Nor would that even necessarily explain complete transparency, anyways.

Reminds me of part of an interview with Deepak Chopra on youtube where he goes through ALL the things relating to Barack Obama that are obviously part of an immense ploy/conspiracy on our perceptions and states them all as 'virtues' one by one thus falling right into the trap set by the ones perptrating The Obama Deception .

Lol, link to this video? Edited October 22, 2010 by vortex

[simply puzzled]

What I want to see is someone who will post photos of themselves or a friend achieving the same effect. Not a similar effect, as ninpo just posted above. I don't believe that a slow shutter speed could cause the effect that was in Kan's tea pictures. His arm is see through, and there's no evidence of him moving it. His head is completely gone. His feet appear to be off the ground and relaxed, meaning that he would have to be moving his head wildly in order to not be seen while keeping the feet in that position...challenging!

 

I have a DSLR and tripod checked out from work for a project I was working on. I think I can recreate them. If I do, if I post photos that look the same as the ones posted here, will you admit that these are forgeries?

[Aetherous]

I will appreciate it, admit that I really don't know, and that they possibly are forgeries.

 

Best I can do, being skeptical of everything.

[Apech]

I will appreciate it, admit that I really don't know, and that they possibly are forgeries.

 

Best I can do, being skeptical of everything.

 

Being totally skeptical and at the same time open, immediate and with child-like wonder .... the hallmark of a true mystic.

 

 

PS Scotty - forget the photos, if you get positive things from Kunlun then that's enough .... some teachers do/say baffling things ... and we don't always get to know why.

[simply puzzled]

I would like to make a formal apology. I have devoted myself to the art of kunlun and now realize the truth of being able to make oneself transparent. As evidence, I have a photograph of myself as proof.

 

[3bob]

(Is a dead horse still being beaten? Then again one man's dead horse is another man's treasure)

Edited October 22, 2010 by 3bob

[simply puzzled]

(Is a dead horse still being beaten? Then again one man's dead horse is another man's treasure)

 

I, for one, had a lot of fun learning to turn transparent. = )

[Aetherous]

I would like to make a formal apology. I have devoted myself to the art of kunlun and now realize the truth of being able to make oneself transparent. As evidence, I have a photograph of myself as proof.

 

One problem is that we can still see your head moving around.

 

PS Scotty - forget the photos, if you get positive things from Kunlun then that's enough .... some teachers do/say baffling things ... and we don't always get to know why.

 

It's totally possible that the photos were faked and put up to just open our minds to possibilities. Or some other reason. Or it's possible that they're real. Whatever is true, it has no impact on my practice or my life...so I see no problem continuing this discussion. Even if Max thinks taobums is just a bunch of people who badmouth teachers, and who don't practice. I like this place and the people here, and see no problem with discussing things, finding truths and helping one another.

[Apech]

 

 

 

 

It's totally possible that the photos were faked and put up to just open our minds to possibilities. Or some other reason. Or it's possible that they're real. Whatever is true, it has no impact on my practice or my life...so I see no problem continuing this discussion. Even if Max thinks taobums is just a bunch of people who badmouth teachers, and who don't practice. I like this place and the people here, and see no problem with discussing things, finding truths and helping one another.

 

ok - you have a great spirit and attitude.

[Aetherous]

Something else I just noticed...

 

http://www.primordialalchemist.com/gallery/kunlun_photos.html

 

Look at the third photo in. His elbow has vanished, but his forearm and hand appear stationary and fading. This specific effect would be impossible to do with only a slow shutter speed...it would require photoshop.

[Aetherous]

Thanks apepch7! You too.

[Owledge]

@Sloppy Zhang

Your frustrating situation and life experiences on the path sound a lot like mine. And help doesn't seem to be within sight, because many people can tell me the what, but not the how. It's all very much generalized and often just trying to brush off valid points.

 

Now what happens if someone REAL gets studied? We might find life isn't what we think it is! We might find humans really do have amazing potential! Suddenly practices are taken more seriously, and people actually CARE about stuff!

Bruno Gröning. 60 years ago. Scientifically verified spirit healings even of most difficult cases like paralyzed legs or blindness. Appeared almost like the return of Jesus. Was in the press all the time.

Tragically died because of the burden of the medical establishment suing him to death. Tragically, because I don't see it as a law of nature or something. With a different strategy, based more on covert healing, he probably could have lived. But that's just based on my limited knowledge of events.

And although great numbers of 'treated' people naturally produces relatively many healings, he also took the effort to heal difficult cases by tricking their ego or something. Real ninja healing, you could say.

He cooperated with science in order to verify his healings. It produced good and bad results. Like I said, I'm sure there is a kind of middle way of staying out of harm's way while doing everything possible for those with a friendly and open attitude.

I guess it's a huge problem today that there are so many really sincere people who wish nothing more than to go a positive way, but can't and thus despair. And part of this might be things being made unnecessarily difficult through 'spiritual politics'. Teachers/masters might be more troubled themselves than people would think, but this might not only be the student's fault, because where there is no communication, these things happen. I guess that applies to all somewhat revered personalities. Like a rich rock star who finally tells his fans how much his life sucks and how lucky the fans are with their simple lives. If the rock star hadn't come out with this, the fans would not have understood.

I suspect that all that prevents us from communicating more productively with each other is fear/pain.

 

Oh, and about another thing: I suspect that there are a whole lot of roleplayers out there who need to tell themselves illusions in order to stand the pain of life. Here, too, one should ask for verification. (Maybe this is what can be called "New Age". Things that people think will automatically work if they believe (or tell themselves) they will.)

Recently on a spiritual fair a woman spoke about the aura and about the first layer, a thin bright rim around the body, that can be seen easier against a bright background. Well, strange that the same effect can occur with paper cutouts and even drawn pictures.

Either people that really have 'supernatural powers' are still fooling themselves to a certain degree, or fooling yourself is a requirement for being able to go down that path.

But all of this could be due to the pain of seeking and not finding, about a spiritual discrepancy between supply and demand, so to speak.

 

About trickery: I saw a documentary about a healer taking tumors and stuff out of patients, involving quite a lot of blood and no wound afterwards. While at first this was believed to be all true, the documentary maker apparently was more inquisitive, and they told him that all the blood and the pig intestine parts make it more convincing for the patient, strengthening his belief in the method and thus activating his self-healing powers.

While this might work, it makes you wonder about the relation of healer's effort and healed's effort.

Personally, having very high regards for truth, this puts me off, and I would assume that part of the spiritual path is to acknowledge the value of truth, and that deviating from it even with good intentions behind it is a kind of failure or weakness or making it easier for the healer. At least this trickery might be unwise for truth-buffs.

It's a bit like lying to your kids about the nature of thunder and lightning because you think they are too stupid to understand the scientific explanation. Says a lot about the parents, and while they might laugh it off, I would claim that seeing the simple and blunt truth behind things and shedding illusions involves realizing that it is like I said it: parents lying to their kids, thinking they are stupid.

 

I also would like to point out a suspicion that the ruling powers are trying to amplify the pacifying infleence of spirituality, because it makes it easier for them to expand their rule and increase suffering in the world. I mean, look at different countries: The USA are supporting cruel dictators again and again and toppling democracies, but where did it not succeed? Venezuela (Chavez). Why? Because people took to the streets and demanded justice. Imagine what Venezuela would be like today if all the poor and suffering and simple working people had entertained a peaceful, accepting, laid back spiritual-style attitude. I'd say it has to be a case-to-case decision whether you neutralize evil by peacefulness or shatter it by force, depending on your inner strength to remain peaceful.

 

The sheer terror of having our world-view torn apart by these 'miraculous' phenomena is just too much to bear - and so we do anything in our power to keep to the status-quo.

I'd prefer having my world-view being torn apart in terror over my current path in life. At the very least, the former would be more interesting.

 

I think it was Ya Mu who said "A smooth mountain is difficult to climb" .... Disruption, obstacle and suffering are necessary components of practice and necessary catalysts for growth. The easy path leads ever downward into stagnation.

Yeah, one can find a metaphor for everything.

Did you never consider that too many obstacles can lead to stagnation?

How about positive feedback being a necessary component of practice, too?

 

What this means is: the practice is powerful, but it does nothing if you're unwilling to change. To let go of the things which serve you no longer.

Why do people always assume that things are so easy? This is an example of what I meant by "the what but not the how": There seem to be at least two interpretations of the word "willing". One can be willing to to something, but something else is blocking it from being done. Wanna call that unwilling? Does it matter? Finding out about the nature of the blockage seems to be the great trick that almost nobody has mastered, bur everybody tells you you have to figure it out for yourself. As if there were no point in recognizing who you are through reflection in and interaction with others.

 

@simply puzzled

Posting the answer to your e-mail without your e-mail is only half the story.

Edited October 22, 2010 by Hardyg

[Taomeow]

About trickery: I saw a documentary about a healer taking tumors and stuff out of patients, involving quite a lot of blood and no wound afterwards. While at first this was believed to be all true, the documentary maker apparently was more inquisitive, and they told him that all the blood and the pig intestine parts make it more convincing for the patient, strengthening his belief in the method and thus activating his self-healing powers.

While this might work, it makes you wonder about the relation of healer's effort and healed's effort.

Personally, having very high regards for truth, this puts me off, and I would assume that part of the spiritual path is to acknowledge the value of truth, and that deviating from it even with good intentions behind it is a kind of failure or weakness or making it easier for the healer.

This is quite common, but it's not lying, it's several healing modalities incorporated simultaneously. One of them, the one the healer in your example cited as the reason, is psychotherapy. A healer is very capable of doing things invisibly, but a patient who doesn't believe in things he can't see, touch, smell, or understand has a whole powerful structure of ideation working against an invisible, intangible, bloodless healing, making the task so much more difficult. Even if on the surface the patient "agrees to believe," or at least to suspend doubt, the unconscious mind will reject a healing it doesn't believe in.

 

The second reason is incorporating the aid of associative processes, "like resonates with like" considerations. Billions of women use lipstick for the same purpose. They don't pretend that the bright red or delicate pink or vampire-dinner-caked-blood shade of their lips is the real color, but the color they superimpose (hiding reality, effectively lying) is meant to evoke particular resonances in the observer -- "sexy," or "innocent," or "bold," or "thirsty for love" or "friendly but unavailable" -- whatever message a woman is trying to transmit to the world, she will reinforce with a particular choice of a "fake" color. The color may be fake, but the message is true, and methods to intensify its truth and efficiency can vary from lipstick for flirting to pig blood for healing. Same mechanism of action.

 

The third reason is sympathetic magic. This one is the most powerful of them all, but I won't be explaining it here.

 

The fourth is tradition. It has always been done this way in all early cultures that sacrificed animals and blood (and humans too, on occasion) toward a particular cause. The Chinese emperors used to sacrifice a thousand oxen to gods on a designated day, every year, to secure good health for themselves and the nation. Haitian voodoo priests will smear the patient with chicken's blood. A med school classmate of my sister-in-law's bit off a live frog's head before an important exam... he couldn't explain why and grossed everybody out. I know why!

[Owledge]

Yeah, OK, but a possible problem here is when more and more healers grow comfortable with the placebo strategy, because it really frustrates people like me who seem to be mostly immune to that approach due to a relatively well-developed intellect and need many disappointing experiences for realizing how often it is just placebo strategy. That kind of healers might actually be raising awareness for this and then in future any kind of approach to healing will be seen extra-skeptically.

Personally this has driven me to a point where when someone claims "This will even work if you don't believe in it.", I don't believe a word of it, because it's very likely just another placebo strategy, using reverse psychology.