Gold Dragon Body Photos

[Lucky7Strikes]

No, he doesn't.

yes. he. does.

[Lucky7Strikes]

This only has to do with your perceptions and knowledge of image production, NOT the actual photos. We forget this as we take in so much information every day so we maintain a certain scepticism, but one that cuts both ways--we don't believe everything we see/hear etc but equally we don't not. So, essentially we're screwed , cannon fodder for the spectacle. The photo's to me are "obvious" fakes cause I can see the 'flaws' in their 'argument'. They fail to convince me because of the things represented in them that you take as expectant (?) in photos dealing with amorphous phenomena? This is a serious 'issue' in 'our' culture--any number of levels of control are possible through playing on our expectations from the delivery of the genre under perview. For example, we can't imagine a leader who is a pathological liar and sociopath so we make fun of their gaffs and quips cause to admit the truth would send us into a spin out of our comfort zone and we would have a very complicated and uncomfortable life ahead. We can turn them into "quirky and inept politician" whereas the truth of the matter may be a little more horrifying. I see these sorts of photos/claims being in that lineage of indoctrination by their insistence that the onus for their validity is placed squarely on the viewer (as with the politician:'we' voted for him/her and support the electoral process hence our complicity/lack of courage in confronting the illusion). Paul

This argument is easily made the other way around. It's an old speech pattern: "this issue in our culture is overstating/understating, so beware". Shit like this gets no where. Be a scholar if you want, but it'll leave you crumpled over a chair, intellectualizing, doubting, again and again. Just practice like Scotty says, and see if the art works.

 

You need a degree of faith in anything. But you also need caution yes, but you can't rationalize learning to ride a bicycle and actually learn.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

Seminars + travel = LOTS of money. As a current college student, I have lots of costs just to do what I'm doing right now. If I were to add the cost of something else, I'd have to make sure it was good BEFORE I put out hundreds of dollars on it. If I wanted to do something more extreme, such as dropping my college education entirely to bet my life on supposed "genuine teachings", then I'd need to have an even better prospect (as in, be completely convinced that what I'm going after is 1) possible and 2) I can do it).

If you can attend college, you can afford to take a seminar. Send an e-mail asking for a discount. Get work, save some money.

 

No one will tell you that a spiritual master is GOOD. You need to take a leap and go. If you are disappointed, then whatever. You took your chance.

 

None of these excuses will come out if you were truly passionate about exploring these things. You know the history of Max on this forum and the practice carries some legitimacy.

[Lucky7Strikes]

All I'm saying is that, in the search for something that is actually true/working/effective/whatever you want to call it, just saying, "oh well, anything's possible!" doesn't actually get you anywhere.

 

As ralis put it earlier, some people just want to cut through the crap. I want to cut through the crap.

 

There are a BUNCH of teachers out there teaching stuff that does. not. work. and they come up with all these excuses for why they can't legitimize their claims, yet are still expecting you to bow and scrape and hand over your money.

 

Then you got people teaching stuff which they claim works, and has worked for them. But don't really do anything to actually legitimize the claim, and instead comes up with reason upon reason for why they can't show anything to anybody. These SEEM a bit more legitimate than the obvious fakes, but there's nothing REALLY there to REALLY put them over the edge. They just have their credentials in order, and may or may not act the part. And they still ask for various forms of your money.

 

Then you got other people saying that the previous person's practice does work, that they've experienced it, but don't do anything to legitimize the claim. These people may be experiencing something, but they come up for all these reasons for why they can't prove it, even if their claims are easily verifiable through the means a non-cultivated person has at their disposal. These people might also just be delusional and following someone because they want to feel accepted, but since they are following the pattern and not trying to legitimize their claim, we'll never know! They claim it really really does work, if only you'd just try it out for yourself.

 

And then you got people like myself. Who've been taken for a ride so many times. Thought, "I'll just give it a go, and be open minded!" Had my wallet taken, but thought, "ah, karma, I'm paying the price for real teachings!" Got nothing. Taken for more rides. Got nothing. Sometimes got hurt. Then had weird shit happen to him. Was excited for a bit. Then sees the potheads over in the corner that have had that feeling this whole time.

 

 

So, how does someone in my (and no doubt, many others') situation get out? By doing the same thing? By really believing all the nice people who really said it works, and really believed it works?

 

Sorry, Scotty. Again, you're a nice guy. But it's like..... you gotta come up with something better than that. You can call it negativity. I call it experience.

 

What separates real teachers from fake teachers? NOTHING. Their pitch is identical. Their behaviors are identical. All that has to happen is ONE real teacher step forward, and set the standard. If the fakes can't abide by that standard, then they are obviously fakes.

 

Just like every other aspect of life. The fakes will fail, the real deals will act.

 

Wow. Yeah. Go on bitching and moaning.

 

Finding a real master is always hard. Read through any story on enlightened master and sages. They spend years, decades under some master without knowing that he is legit without anything being shown to them. Seekers used to travel years for a certain teaching or to meet a teacher because they were that desperate for something more than the material world.

 

Proof proof proof. I don't think you realize how risky it is for a master to subject himself to the scientific community if he is really legit. All sorts of shit would get involved and I doubt the government would want any sort of "miracle" proven to the public if it could lead to social upheaval.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Birch]

To badly paraphrase Alan Watts. "A good teacher steals your watch and sells it back to you, if only to make you realize you had a watch in the first place."

 

Sloppy, I agree with everything you've said. Again and again, this is why I come to TTB's - as a sort of a clearing house for BS practices.

 

Any mind/body/spirit practice is going to be (IMO and small experience) challenging for someone who grew up in a culture which has split them apart (in fact I believe this is the goal of many "religions" - to install a split model for lay people and an integrated one for the "chosen" but I digress...)

 

Systematically blaming the student for not "getting it" very fast is IMO somewhat disengenous (sp?)on the part of (some) teachers who, if they know better, are perpetuating the very thing they claim to eliminate, or if they don't know better, should probably not be setting up in the teaching business in the first place. I can't decide which is worse so far.

 

I won't address the societal breakdown that could potentially stem from such pictures. Much worse gets shown every day on TV news and no societal breakdown or upheaval (aside from the usual) seems to be going on.

[freeform]

These 'scientists' you guys are talking about seem way more mystical than the Maxs and John Changs of this world.

 

I reckon it's a little immature to think of 'scientists' as these benevolent truth verifiers.

 

The science world is just as enmeshed in politics, economy and dogma as the rest of us.

 

Firstly - What kind of scientist would risk his career to study 'paranormal people'... think about it. It's likely to be a scientist with no real 'career' to speak of... There are thousands of scientists with no reputation studying 'the paranormal'... is their research being taken seriously?

 

Secondly - Research costs money. A lot of money. To get to the point where it would even register on the scientific community's radar it would cost millions. Of course even with a lot of money it could easily be dismissed... the creationists are pumping loads of funds into disproving the existence of dinosaurs before man. The only people willing to give out this level of funding almost always have an agenda - whether political or good old $$... There are very few organisations with money and power that would benefit from this sort of research. In fact there are very many organisations with a lot of money and a lot of power and already involved in funding many scientific studies that would greatly benefit from keeping this kind of research out of the labs.

 

Thirdly - lets say in a highly unrealistic alternate universe a prominent scientist, with good reputation in his field decides he's ready to face the mockery of his skeptical peers and takes on the opportunity to study a person such as Max... And he manages to partner with a similarly unlikely, but credible billionaire, ready to squander his riches on this sort of project. What exactly would they study? I mean he can't exactly 'verify' that Max can turn into a brilliant white light... He needs something to measure... ok he could measure the amount of photons coming off of Max (this phenomenon has been studied already in plants and animal cells)... But would the headline "Scientist discovers man who gives off unusual amount of photons!" really change the world as dramatically as we'd all like? There are hundreds of studies on all manner of qi-related phenomena... qi gong masters having unusual electrical properties, giving off inaudible, low frequency sound, affecting in-vitro cells etc... there's statistical data on the effects on patients in qi-gong hospital in china... none of that has broken through to the mainstream to challenge our world-view yet.

 

I mean if tens of thousands of witnesses who directly witnessed a 'miracle' at Fatima can be discounted, discredited or just plain laughed at, then what do you reckon would happen if someone like Max turned into a bright light on stage?...

 

I get your sentiments guys. Of course I would love for things that us Taobums cherish, practice and study deeply every day to be validated and accepted or at least seriously studied and examined... but the sad truth is it's just not that simple. It's naive to think that the world at large is curious enough and more importantly open-minded enough. Most of us are set in our ways. The sheer terror of having our world-view torn apart by these 'miraculous' phenomena is just too much to bear - and so we do anything in our power to keep to the status-quo.

 

Just to illustrate the point it's very common for entire families to disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from very clear, obvious, unequivocal, evidence of sexual abuse in their family... because the horror of coming to terms with the reality is far too painful - so their entire psyche blocks the possibility of this being true in every way it can... and this can be the case for dozens of members of the same family...

 

You might think of this as an over-dramatic comparison - that maybe so, but the mechanism is the same... It's also the same when a follower or maybe a couple of thousand followers of a guru are presented with unequivocal evidence that he or she is a complete charlatan would disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from the evidence.

 

I propose true skepticism.

 

Most people claiming to be skeptics are never skeptical about anything except the things they have a prejudice against. It's most important to be skeptical with your own beliefs and assumptions.

 

just because something COULD be faked - doesn't prove that it WAS.

 

That's the only truly skeptical answer here...

[Birch]

These 'scientists' you guys are talking about seem way more mystical than the Maxs and John Changs of this world.

 

I reckon it's a little immature to think of 'scientists' as these benevolent truth verifiers.

 

The science world is just as enmeshed in politics, economy and dogma as the rest of us.

 

Firstly - What kind of scientist would risk his career to study 'paranormal people'... think about it. It's likely to be a scientist with no real 'career' to speak of... There are thousands of scientists with no reputation studying 'the paranormal'... is their research being taken seriously?

 

Secondly - Research costs money. A lot of money. To get to the point where it would even register on the scientific community's radar it would cost millions. Of course even with a lot of money it could easily be dismissed... the creationists are pumping loads of funds into disproving the existence of dinosaurs before man. The only people willing to give out this level of funding almost always have an agenda - whether political or good old $$... There are very few organisations with money and power that would benefit from this sort of research. In fact there are very many organisations with a lot of money and a lot of power and already involved in funding many scientific studies that would greatly benefit from keeping this kind of research out of the labs.

 

Thirdly - lets say in a highly unrealistic alternate universe a prominent scientist, with good reputation in his field decides he's ready to face the mockery of his skeptical peers and takes on the opportunity to study a person such as Max... And he manages to partner with a similarly unlikely, but credible billionaire, ready to squander his riches on this sort of project. What exactly would they study? I mean he can't exactly 'verify' that Max can turn into a brilliant white light... He needs something to measure... ok he could measure the amount of photons coming off of Max (this phenomenon has been studied already in plants and animal cells)... But would the headline "Scientist discovers man who gives off unusual amount of photons!" really change the world as dramatically as we'd all like? There are hundreds of studies on all manner of qi-related phenomena... qi gong masters having unusual electrical properties, giving off inaudible, low frequency sound, affecting in-vitro cells etc... there's statistical data on the effects on patients in qi-gong hospital in china... none of that has broken through to the mainstream to challenge our world-view yet.

 

I mean if tens of thousands of witnesses who directly witnessed a 'miracle' at Fatima can be discounted, discredited or just plain laughed at, then what do you reckon would happen if someone like Max turned into a bright light on stage?...

 

I get your sentiments guys. Of course I would love for things that us Taobums cherish, practice and study deeply every day to be validated and accepted or at least seriously studied and examined... but the sad truth is it's just not that simple. It's naive to think that the world at large is curious enough and more importantly open-minded enough. Most of us are set in our ways. The sheer terror of having our world-view torn apart by these 'miraculous' phenomena is just too much to bear - and so we do anything in our power to keep to the status-quo.

 

Just to illustrate the point it's very common for entire families to disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from very clear, obvious, unequivocal, evidence of sexual abuse in their family... because the horror of coming to terms with the reality is far too painful - so their entire psyche blocks the possibility of this being true in every way it can... and this can be the case for dozens of members of the same family...

 

You might think of this as an over-dramatic comparison - that maybe so, but the mechanism is the same... It's also the same when a follower or maybe a couple of thousand followers of a guru are presented with unequivocal evidence that he or she is a complete charlatan would disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from the evidence.

 

I propose true skepticism.

 

Most people claiming to be skeptics are never skeptical about anything except the things they have a prejudice against. It's most important to be skeptical with your own beliefs and assumptions.

 

 

 

That's the only truly skeptical answer here...

 

 

Great post too!

 

Edited to add link: http://www.amazon.com/Why-Not-Scientist-Anthropology-Knowledge/dp/0520259602/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1287490616&sr=1-1

Edited October 19, 2010 by Kate

[Apech]

If the pictures are just promotional material, that makes Max a liar. He has shown these pictures in seminars as evidence of Kan's rainbow body status.

 

So if these are faked, it means he and Kan set up these photos purposefully to deceive practitioners and the public. It would seriously damage his credibility.

 

Lucky,

 

There is another possibility and that is that Max sincerely believes that the pictures show what is suggested - but he may be mistaken. I don't like to judge people I have never met and I accept there may be merit in Kunlun (those who have done it have to say). My main point was that 'high energy' practices can make you feel subjectively that you have gone further than you have. For instance a strong feeling of flying, visions of flying and so on - don't mean you have actually physically levitated. But you might think you have. BTW I accept that levitation is ultimately possible.

 

(sorry to go back several pages but I have been traveling).

 

PS. I think that RV's moral energy idea deserves a thread of its own.

[Ninpo-me-this-ninjutsu-me-that]

Here's a picture I took myself last year of a car practicing gold light body thingy.

 

The only difference is mine isn't badly overexposed. I should have done it with a nice bright back light to add that ethereal effect. I actually do have a few of those.... generally, technically that's called a crap photo. Then again it does depend what effect you are going for. No photoshop required.

 

I think you can see the evidence is clear. The car is definitely levitating.

[That Guy]

Here's a picture I took myself last year of a car practicing gold light body thingy.

 

The only difference is mine isn't badly overexposed. I should have done it with a nice bright back light to add that ethereal effect. I actually do have a few of those.... generally, technically that's called a crap photo. Then again it does depend what effect you are going for. No photoshop required.

 

I think you can see the evidence is clear. The car is definitely levitating.

car-ge bunshin no jutsu?

[Lucky7Strikes]

Lucky,

 

There is another possibility and that is that Max sincerely believes that the pictures show what is suggested - but he may be mistaken. I don't like to judge people I have never met and I accept there may be merit in Kunlun (those who have done it have to say). My main point was that 'high energy' practices can make you feel subjectively that you have gone further than you have. For instance a strong feeling of flying, visions of flying and so on - don't mean you have actually physically levitated. But you might think you have. BTW I accept that levitation is ultimately possible.

 

(sorry to go back several pages but I have been traveling).

 

PS. I think that RV's moral energy idea deserves a thread of its own.

Max once mentioned that Kan can be anywhere he wants. There are stories of Kan walking through walls.

 

If he just "believes" that his body can manifest anywhere or walk through walls, then that's not just a belief. Either you are crazy, a complete liar, or telling the truth.

 

You cannot "mistake" your body's disappearance nor can witnesses by "mistake" another body's disappearance.

 

Anyways, I would like to hear people's opinions about the picture of the 16th Karmapa. Is he also a giant fraud? Or a deluded fool? Is he making fake photos too?

Edited October 19, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[ralis]

Max once mentioned that Kan can be anywhere he wants. There are stories of Kan walking through walls.

 

 

 

Anyways, I would like to hear people's opinions about the picture of the 16th Karmapa. Is he also a giant fraud? Or a deluded fool? Is he making fake photos too?

 

I invited Kan to come to my house and so far he has not arrived. I even challenged Padmasambhava to appear in the passenger seat of my truck. After all he is said to have about 5 billion emanations at any one time. Hasn't happened yet!

 

In terms of the Karmapa, your argument is emotional and faulty. The Karmapa was photographed at a teaching by someone with a camera. You imply he was taking photos of himself. I have been to those events and people take photographs and pass them around. If there is a woo woo moment i.e, a strange aura or whatever on the image, then people get all excited and attach all manner of wonderment as opposed to asking serious questions around what these images really are. To attach delusion or fraud to the Karmapa is irrelevant as to whether the image is substantive evidence of something miraculous.

[Sloppy Zhang]

If you can attend college, you can afford to take a seminar.

 

Ever occur to you that I can't afford a seminar BECAUSE of college? Guess not.

 

Which is why, if I'm going to set aside an extra couple hundred dollars, I'm going to make sure it's a damn good seminar, that the teacher is legit, and the teachings I'm going to receive are legit. If it's something I can do at home with a book, I'd rather do that (and I do!).

 

You need to take a leap and go. If you are disappointed, then whatever. You took your chance.

 

I've taken chances time and again, "blindly believing" thinking I'd make real progress if I was a "good student", shut up, chopped wood, and carried water. And that didn't get me anything but a sore back and a lot of extra firewood! You get what you put into it. If you aren't willing to investigate and ask questions, you are going to get nothing but a bunch of lies into your face!

 

None of these excuses will come out if you were truly passionate about exploring these things.

 

BULLSHIT! It's BECAUSE I am passionate about exploring these things that I am looking at them so critically!

 

It angers and saddens me that so many frauds are able to go around scot free because NOBODY is held to any standard. A "real" teacher and a "fraud" can stand shoulder to shoulder, pronounce their teachings, and no one would have any way of knowing which one is real and which one is fake because NO ONE is actually DOING anything! Let's get some results and put the fakes out for good!

 

As the saying goes, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

 

And there are a whole lot of "good" men out there doing a whole lot of NOTHING! And charging you out the wazoo for it!

 

Proof proof proof. I don't think you realize how risky it is for a master to subject himself to the scientific community if he is really legit.

 

I don't think you realize how EVERYONE in ANY field has to subject themselves to the SAME scientific criticisms. I have a physics professor who does not accept the global warming caused by CO2 emissions model that has been put out. There's just not enough evidence for him to accept that particular model. He's considered a crackpot! Do you know how much sleep he loses at night? NONE!

 

I suppose he's a more spiritually realized person, as he's realized how stupid it is to be obsessed with something as fleeting as reputation?

 

Max once mentioned that Kan can be anywhere he wants. There are stories of Kan walking through walls.

 

There's also a story of Frodo Baggins and the War of the Ring. They made a couple good movies about it too.

 

If he just "believes" that his body can manifest anywhere or walk through walls, then that's not just a belief. Either you are crazy, a complete liar, or telling the truth.

 

Now all he has to do is "believe" in front of a skeptical audience that is monitoring the conditions of the experiment, and he'd be *chuckle* golden!

Edited October 19, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[That Guy]

I'll never go to a seminar of someone I'm not sure is legit because I don't want to risk supporting BS.

[Apech]

Max once mentioned that Kan can be anywhere he wants. There are stories of Kan walking through walls.

 

If he just "believes" that his body can manifest anywhere or walk through walls, then that's not just a belief. Either you are crazy, a complete liar, or telling the truth.

 

You cannot "mistake" your body's disappearance nor can witnesses by "mistake" another body's disappearance.

 

Anyways, I would like to hear people's opinions about the picture of the 16th Karmapa. Is he also a giant fraud? Or a deluded fool? Is he making fake photos too?

 

Hi Lucky,

 

I didn't know about these stories or claims, I was just looking at the photos.

 

I agree with Ralis about the Karmapa - I am not aware that he himself claimed anything about that photo. But it would be true that historical Karmapas are said to have had miraculous powers.

 

I suppose you are right that if people make these kind of claims they will either have to be either true or false there is no in between, in the way I was suggesting. It was just my way of making sense of the photos, the claims and this thread.

 

I have to say having looked at the photos again it seems clear that they are time exposures of a person who is moving during the time that the 'shutter' is open (I know there isn't a shutter as such on a digital camera but you know what I mean). Aside from the claims made by people that they are something else then I don't think anyone would reach a different conclusion.

 

I hope no-one builds too much on all of this. Its all rather like medieval relics and saints bones. In the end not a real basis for faith.

[Pero]

I invited Kan to come to my house and so far he has not arrived. I even challenged Padmasambhava to appear in the passenger seat of my truck. After all he is said to have about 5 billion emanations at any one time. Hasn't happened yet!

 

That's like an ant complaining to another ant that it tried to challenge you but you didn't respond.

 

Not to mention that Padmasambhava is said to be present in front of people who have faith/devotion in him (which you don't seem to have anyway), not that people will actually see him. As far as I know people who can see him already have quite some realization and people with such a realization are probably far and few inbetween.

 

edit: this in refference to Padmasambhava, have nothing to say about Kan.

Edited October 19, 2010 by Pero

[Taomeow]

I think I told the story before but since most people in this thread probably either didn't hear it or don't remember, I will indulge myself and tell it again.

 

At the second kunlun seminar I attended, some two years ago, there was a woman for whom it was her first one, who got into some deep, soul-shattering feeling. She started crying and couldn't stop for a while. She was mumbling something incoherent and trying to communicate her feeling to others -- all I could make out was "we're all the same... I understand now... compassion... all the same... compassion..." Every attempt to express this just brought about more uncontrollable sobbing. Finally Max came up to her and did something, a mudra I think, I couldn't quite see from my spot, or else don't remember what it was. All of a sudden, the woman stopped crying and jumped three feet up in the air, her jaw hanging open, looking at Max it utter disbelief. He started saying something comforting, she interrupted him: "but why... but why... but why did you just go transparent?.." Max quickly changed the subject and distracted everyone's attention from this interesting exchange.

 

After the seminar, I bumped into this woman on my way out. I asked her how she was feeling. She immediately started crying all over again, hugged me, and said, "I wish for you to experience someday what I experienced today."

 

What I gleaned from that episode was that seeing a rainbow body or not seeing it is a co-creation between who's showing and who's looking. Most people won't see! Whoever is not ready to see, won't see! There's no way in hell that the woman was "fake," an actress hired to perform. I can tell a human hug from an act.

 

So the point about the pictures is mute. It is very possible that the camera can't see. It is very possible that the pictures showing what people who can see actually see can be made, as an educational aid. That they were created for this purpose instead of just snapped is possible and even likely, but this wouldn't render anyone or anything fake, in and of itself, if you follow my logic.

 

Oh, and what she wished for me that day came true.

[Sloppy Zhang]

These 'scientists' you guys are talking about seem way more mystical than the Maxs and John Changs of this world.

 

I reckon it's a little immature to think of 'scientists' as these benevolent truth verifiers.

 

The science world is just as enmeshed in politics, economy and dogma as the rest of us.

 

Firstly - What kind of scientist would risk his career to study 'paranormal people'... think about it. It's likely to be a scientist with no real 'career' to speak of... There are thousands of scientists with no reputation studying 'the paranormal'... is their research being taken seriously?

 

Secondly - Research costs money. A lot of money. To get to the point where it would even register on the scientific community's radar it would cost millions. Of course even with a lot of money it could easily be dismissed... the creationists are pumping loads of funds into disproving the existence of dinosaurs before man. The only people willing to give out this level of funding almost always have an agenda - whether political or good old $$... There are very few organisations with money and power that would benefit from this sort of research. In fact there are very many organisations with a lot of money and a lot of power and already involved in funding many scientific studies that would greatly benefit from keeping this kind of research out of the labs.

 

Thirdly - lets say in a highly unrealistic alternate universe a prominent scientist, with good reputation in his field decides he's ready to face the mockery of his skeptical peers and takes on the opportunity to study a person such as Max... And he manages to partner with a similarly unlikely, but credible billionaire, ready to squander his riches on this sort of project. What exactly would they study? I mean he can't exactly 'verify' that Max can turn into a brilliant white light... He needs something to measure... ok he could measure the amount of photons coming off of Max (this phenomenon has been studied already in plants and animal cells)... But would the headline "Scientist discovers man who gives off unusual amount of photons!" really change the world as dramatically as we'd all like? There are hundreds of studies on all manner of qi-related phenomena... qi gong masters having unusual electrical properties, giving off inaudible, low frequency sound, affecting in-vitro cells etc... there's statistical data on the effects on patients in qi-gong hospital in china... none of that has broken through to the mainstream to challenge our world-view yet.

 

I mean if tens of thousands of witnesses who directly witnessed a 'miracle' at Fatima can be discounted, discredited or just plain laughed at, then what do you reckon would happen if someone like Max turned into a bright light on stage?...

 

I get your sentiments guys. Of course I would love for things that us Taobums cherish, practice and study deeply every day to be validated and accepted or at least seriously studied and examined... but the sad truth is it's just not that simple. It's naive to think that the world at large is curious enough and more importantly open-minded enough. Most of us are set in our ways. The sheer terror of having our world-view torn apart by these 'miraculous' phenomena is just too much to bear - and so we do anything in our power to keep to the status-quo.

 

Just to illustrate the point it's very common for entire families to disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from very clear, obvious, unequivocal, evidence of sexual abuse in their family... because the horror of coming to terms with the reality is far too painful - so their entire psyche blocks the possibility of this being true in every way it can... and this can be the case for dozens of members of the same family...

 

You might think of this as an over-dramatic comparison - that maybe so, but the mechanism is the same... It's also the same when a follower or maybe a couple of thousand followers of a guru are presented with unequivocal evidence that he or she is a complete charlatan would disbelieve/disregard/distort/excuse/hide from the evidence.

 

I propose true skepticism.

 

Most people claiming to be skeptics are never skeptical about anything except the things they have a prejudice against. It's most important to be skeptical with your own beliefs and assumptions.

 

 

 

That's the only truly skeptical answer here...

 

I completely agree with all this as well

 

I think I told the story before but since most people in this thread probably either didn't hear it or don't remember, I will indulge myself and tell it again.

 

At the second kunlun seminar I attended, some two years ago, there was a woman for whom it was her first one, who got into some deep, soul-shattering feeling. She started crying and couldn't stop for a while. She was mumbling something incoherent and trying to communicate her feeling to others -- all I could make out was "we're all the same... I understand now... compassion... all the same... compassion..." Every attempt to express this just brought about more uncontrollable sobbing. Finally Max came up to her and did something, a mudra I think, I couldn't quite see from my spot, or else don't remember what it was. All of a sudden, the woman stopped crying and jumped three feet up in the air, her jaw hanging open, looking at Max it utter disbelief. He started saying something comforting, she interrupted him: "but why... but why... but why did you just go transparent?.." Max quickly changed the subject and distracted everyone's attention from this interesting exchange.

 

After the seminar, I bumped into this woman on my way out. I asked her how she was feeling. She immediately started crying all over again, hugged me, and said, "I wish for you to experience someday what I experienced today."

 

What I gleaned from that episode was that seeing a rainbow body or not seeing it is a co-creation between who's showing and who's looking. Most people won't see! Whoever is not ready to see, won't see! There's no way in hell that the woman was "fake," an actress hired to perform. I can tell a human hug from an act.

 

So the point about the pictures is mute. It is very possible that the camera can't see. It is very possible that the pictures showing what people who can see actually see can be made, as an educational aid. That they were created for this purpose instead of just snapped is possible and even likely, but this wouldn't render anyone or anything fake, in and of itself, if you follow my logic.

 

Oh, and what she wished for me that day came true.

 

I do remember this story

 

 

 

Now all of what's been brought up is very good.... but where does it leave us? If everything depends on who's looking, and if every process is subject to alternate agendas which aim to create reality.... then we're left with nothing really said for any shared sense of reality.

 

A "real" teaching can be just as "real/fake" as a "fake" teaching. A practice that "hurts" you can be just as "effective/ineffective" as a practice that "helps" you.

 

Don't know how I feel about that one. There is just some stuff that does not work. There are just some people who are not what they say they are.

 

You could go out on a limb and say, "well the stuff that doesn't work teach you how NOT to do something", but that's pushing it, and when you get into points like that.... well, if nothing is real anyway, what's the point?

Edited October 19, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[3bob]

I completely agree with all this as well

 

I do remember this story

 

Now all of what's been brought up is very good.... but where does it leave us? If everything depends on who's looking, and if every process is subject to alternate agendas which aim to create reality.... then we're left with nothing really said for any shared sense of reality.

 

A "real" teaching can be just as "real/fake" as a "fake" teaching. A practice that "hurts" you can be just as "effective/ineffective" as a practice that "helps" you.

 

Don't know how I feel about that one.

 

"...A "real" teaching can be just as "real/fake" as a "fake" teaching. A practice that "hurts" you can be just as "effective/ineffective" as a practice that "helps" you..." by SZ

 

I feel that is wrong. For instance real food can nourish, while food that looks the same but is more or less "fake" does not nourish nearly the same.

[Sloppy Zhang]

"...A "real" teaching can be just as "real/fake" as a "fake" teaching. A practice that "hurts" you can be just as "effective/ineffective" as a practice that "helps" you..." by SZ

 

I feel that is wrong. For instance real food can nourish, while food that looks the same but is more or less "fake" does not nourish nearly the same.

 

But then one can respond that it all depends on who is eating. Some people have super high metabolisms and can eat a whole bunch of horrible food, but stay super skinny. Some people eat one piece of pizza and it goes straight to their belly! Some smoke and drink heavily in their early years, and live till their 80's or 90's, while others carry on the same behavior and suffer from massive organ failure in their 20's!

 

I'm not saying I necessarily agree. But I see where the argument comes from. If this is the case, there are some pretty large implications that should be explored.

[ralis]

Why has does this discussion lead to divisiveness, authoritarianism, provisional faith and exclusivity? The true believers create these divisions for myriad reasons. Mostly as a group dynamic! However, the arguments for these miraculous events are created as one upmanship against anyone that questions authority. "You aren't ready", "you have no faith", "you can't see or trust", ad infinitum.

 

Now the phenomenon is presented that Max dematerializes so that only one person can see that particular event. Why not the others in the group? Is that person who witnessed this event more special than the others in the group? Trance induction, perhaps? Further, there are supposed MRI's and x-rays of Max and supposed physical abnormalities and the poster of that refuses to indulge his audience as to what he observed. Max can't go to a hospital for fear his body would be stolen? What is that supposed to mean?

Edited October 19, 2010 by ralis

[Lucky7Strikes]

Now all he has to do is "believe" in front of a skeptical audience that is monitoring the conditions of the experiment, and he'd be *chuckle* golden!

I think you'll go. :P :P

[Lucky7Strikes]

Why has does this discussion lead to divisiveness, authoritarianism, provisional faith and exclusivity? The true believers create these divisions for myriad reasons. Mostly as a group dynamic! However, the arguments for these miraculous events are created as one upmanship against anyone that questions authority. "You aren't ready", "you have no faith", "you can't see or trust", ad infinitum.

 

Now the phenomenon is presented that Max dematerializes so that only one person can see that particular event. Why not the others in the group? Is that person who witnessed this event more special than the others in the group? Trance induction, perhaps? Further, there are supposed MRI's and x-rays of Max and supposed physical abnormalities and the poster of that refuses to indulge his audience as to what he observed. Max can't go to a hospital for fear his body would be stolen? What is that supposed to mean?

That term true believer coined by Eric Hoffer is flat out ridiculed by sociologists.

 

Yes Ralis, you just are not special. What can I say? You are just left out. Boo hoo!

Edited October 19, 2010 by Lucky7Strikes

[Lucky7Strikes]

I hope no-one builds too much on all of this. Its all rather like medieval relics and saints bones. In the end not a real basis for faith.

I think on that we can agree on .

[ralis]

So the point about the pictures is mute. It is very possible that the camera can't see. It is very possible that the pictures showing what people who can see actually see can be made, as an educational aid. That they were created for this purpose instead of just snapped is possible and even likely, but this wouldn't render anyone or anything fake, in and of itself, if you follow my logic.

 

 

 

 

Actually, your logic does not follow! If, the photos were created for educational purposes, for whom are these photos intended? Only one who is gifted to see? If the images in question are photoshopped, rather than just snapped, then isn't that being deceptive? If these images are for the sole purpose to educate one as to the potential of the practice, then there must be a disclaimer on the page. Otherwise, this is just another case of propaganda.

Edited October 19, 2010 by ralis