Practice here and now

[Gerard]

[neiye]

Hi Durkhrod Chogori,

 

Thanks for your very interesting quote. Please allow me to add my two cents here:

 

Cultivation requires indeed mindfulness and presence but I think there is a trick in the way the traditional teachings of the East have been received in the West. The West is no longer a traditional world: people here think in a very individualistic way. They are in search of self development, self improvement, self care, personal powers and take the traditional teachings as means to their individualistic and egoistic goals. This appears as a complete misinterpretation of them. Traditional teachings don't aim at developing the ego, specially a "spiritual" one.

And in another way, some sincere Western seekers tend to have a romantic, simplified and idealized view of what cultivation leads to. There are now numerous examples of how a life of cultivation doesn't necessarily blow away all mental or cultural conditionings ( HH XIV Dalai Lama acknowledged it for eg when it came to the question of women being abused by spiritual leaders in Tibetan buddhism). The integration of the Absolute in the relative may be more complex than what we think.

There is indeed no shortcuts in spiritual matters.

 

Be well,

neiye

[Mokona]

I feel that time to sit in a quiet place and meditate is very important. In my case, i've failed to medtate without that every time in frustration for the past 8 months. I understand that after long periods of meditation and lots pof practice it can be brought into every day life, i've already done that with belly breathing - I can belly breath easily now i'd say, unless I'm walking quickly, then my abs tighten up and it doesn't work very well.

 

I started fantasizing about having an empty room with a zafu and a meditation mat, and just one blank wall with an open window behind me, sunlight and silence.

[island]

"I started fantasizing about having an empty room with a zafu and a meditation mat, and just one blank wall with an open window behind me, sunlight and silence."

 

What a beautiful picture you paint.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Traditional teachings don't aim at developing the ego, specially a "spiritual" one.

And in another way, some sincere Western seekers tend to have a romantic, simplified and idealized view of what cultivation leads to. There are now numerous examples of how a life of cultivation doesn't necessarily blow away all mental or cultural conditionings ( HH XIV Dalai Lama acknowledged it for eg when it came to the question of women being abused by spiritual leaders in Tibetan buddhism). The integration of the Absolute in the relative may be more complex than what we think.

There is indeed no shortcuts in spiritual matters.

 

Indeedio! No matter how many times the word subtle is mentioned around these practices many still expect discernible results. As as i've walked in the world with both Tao and Chan in mind all i'm learning is to disregard my own ideas about myself, the world, Tao and Chan. I came into it a romantic, and what i'm looking at now is almost depressing. My western mind is always "wrong", my definition of self is always empty.

 

Even though that brings me to great "results" i can't say it's a result i wanted, or want. Existance is truly like the proverbial muddy waters, there is a need to search in depth and disregard everything: it's all either mud or water, none of the two are really the issue. But there's always another way to look at it, not in the sense of a better way, just another one to add to the collection of paradoxes.

Quite bothersome, but i've learned to cope with delusion and the fickle nature of emotions very well

 

Do i come off as pretentious and with my head stuck up my a** a lot? That's how i feel at least

 

I can belly breath easily now i'd say, unless I'm walking quickly, then my abs tighten up and it doesn't work very well.

 

Are you familiar with reverse abdominal breathing?

[Gerard]

...I came into it a romantic, and what i'm looking at now is almost depressing. My western mind is always "wrong", my definition of self is always empty...

 

Indeed you are experiencing what is called the dark night of the soul. Deconstructing the socially and environmentally determined mind is a darn hard process but a necessary one towards spiritual liberation.

 

The eastern mind is also socially constructed.

 

There is no mind...only spirit, just look at the eyes of any newborn and you will only see a spirit. No mind.

 

 

I have seen these eyes in Vipassana practitioners after intense silent long-term retreats. Full awareness, intense life force flowing out of them and inconditional love but I also saw karma in them, the last obstacle to bypass.

[C T]

Good read. Thanks DC!

 

That thread you mentioned is not about being fascinated with the spirit world - rather, its about one man's experience of it, and as such, i would say that a few here would find such accounts worthy of reflection, and may trigger insights which can turn out to be helpful, or even inspirational for some. Just as you have often shared your personal experiences here, which many have found to be interesting and worthy of note, others too have their different experiences to share. It may not be fair to interpret these other's experiences exclusively in light of your own, and do a comparison which, again experience will have informed us, do not often accord perfectly with our own unfolding wisdom.

 

In truth, i too have found some of Dawg's accounts quite cutting-edge stuff, and have actually read some of it with slightly raised eyebrows, but then its his experience at this particular juncture, and that we have to concede to every one here, i believe. We may disagree with certain things, but often, these non-acceptances are simply our own little quirky thingies which pops up now and then, so looking at it from a more constructive view, its great we get to recognize that we still have small work to do on ourselves. After all, as have been quoted in this article by D. Reid: All perceived biases are nothing more than energetic displays, and when one can see things this way, there is really not much to do - there is no need to rectify anything, because in essence, any attempt to do so might simply steer the awareness away from its pristine state. Through familiarization with allowing things to come and go as they are, all frustrations will eventually subside, and consequently we will transform to be softer inside, and become less critical of ourselves and others as a result. When we become less critical of ourselves and others, it leads to peace and tranquility. And then peace and tranquility will lead to..... (you get the pic, bro.)

 

Apologies for this lecture-like post. Not intended as such. If you find it offensive, i'd be happy to delete it from this thread.

[Gerard]

CowTao,

 

When I made that statement it was simply done to guide newcomers seeking for answers because they can get sidetracked by the various small paths that branch off the main road.

 

I only posted my opinion on that thread and as long as we keep the discussion civil, there is nothing wrong with it. It is impermanent anyway. Tomorrow is another day and we would have forgotten by then. Come and go and we just observe them like floating leaves on a moving stream.

[Mokona]

Are you familiar with reverse abdominal breathing?

 

I've only read about it, but I don't know what effects it is supposed to cause.

[3bob]

The first post as presented here is long. I suggest one full page to start with and then a link to the rest.

 

The following line is "romantic" to me, "There is no mind...only spirit, just look at the eyes of any newborn and you will only see a spirit. No mind". DC

 

Mind mastered is used as an important working tool of Spirit.

 

A childs mind starts as a clean slate but not as mastered mind, thus one sees that openess and its potential for the working of spirit.

 

Om

[John Zen]

Thank you for your post. It has changed my attitude in a positive way. Wonderful stuff.

[adept]

Wow !

What an awesome post DC.

These are the words of the enlightened indeed.

I know you choose not to read many books but have you read any Dogen ?

[3bob]

[adept]

Not so wow

 

Well it is for me.

By the way I don't think I'm impressionable, I just get it.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Indeed you are experiencing what is called the dark night of the soul. Deconstructing the socially and environmentally determined mind is a darn hard process but a necessary one towards spiritual liberation.

 

The eastern mind is also socially constructed.

 

There is no mind...only spirit, just look at the eyes of any newborn and you will only see a spirit. No mind.

 

I have seen these eyes in Vipassana practitioners after intense silent long-term retreats. Full awareness, intense life force flowing out of them and inconditional love but I also saw karma in them, the last obstacle to bypass.

 

Hmm, spot on my friend, though didn't know it had a name! True about the newborn in its essence, next step is karma, wich i right now also understand as a construct of both social and environmental root. But hey, i still got a long way to go i hear Thanks for your advice.

 

 

I've only read about it, but I don't know what effects it is supposed to cause.

 

When you start to practice that it shows you where you tense up in the process of breathing whit your abs contracted (back, shoulders, chest, neck and a bunchload of places) and so you learn to relax everything you don't need to be tense. In the end you can still breathe effectively and oxygenate yourself properly when you need to use your abs for support or such.

It can do a whole lot of different effects i hear, i've only found out a few myself, namely those above. In meditation i find it helps me focus. I think it stimulates the flow of qi in your body more actively than the regular abdominal breathing, but i'm not sure, i'm kinda new to qigong.

From a martial point of view it does wonders for your core, when properly used you can express a lot of energy with it and it can help you withstand powerful strikes to the body, but im still exploring that as well.

You should try it Remember to draw in the dan tien as you breathe in and expand your abs completely at the exhale, and see that your breath goes deep. No tension anywhere in the body. Try this while sitting and just standing, look it up, it might help you keep your breath good even when walking fast or running. Just a thought

[3bob]

Well it is for me.

By the way I don't think I'm impressionable, I just get it.

 

Ok, wow for you but not for me. Agreed.

 

And any time full realization/actualization of the unnameable and unencompassable is limited to just two schools within just two of the ways Buddhism and Taoism then I'll just let those go.

 

Om

Edited October 24, 2010 by 3bob

[adept]

Ok, wow for you but not for me. Agreed.

 

And any time full realization/actualization of the unnameable and unencompassable is limited to just two schools within just two of the ways Buddhism and Taoism then I'll just let those go.

 

Om

 

Agreed that realization is not limited to those two. It is when we drop all systems and schools that we transform.

[Mark Foote]

[Mokona]

Hmm, spot on my friend, though didn't know it had a name! True about the newborn in its essence, next step is karma, wich i right now also understand as a construct of both social and environmental root. But hey, i still got a long way to go i hear Thanks for your advice.

 

 

 

 

When you start to practice that it shows you where you tense up in the process of breathing whit your abs contracted (back, shoulders, chest, neck and a bunchload of places) and so you learn to relax everything you don't need to be tense. In the end you can still breathe effectively and oxygenate yourself properly when you need to use your abs for support or such.

It can do a whole lot of different effects i hear, i've only found out a few myself, namely those above. In meditation i find it helps me focus. I think it stimulates the flow of qi in your body more actively than the regular abdominal breathing, but i'm not sure, i'm kinda new to qigong.

From a martial point of view it does wonders for your core, when properly used you can express a lot of energy with it and it can help you withstand powerful strikes to the body, but im still exploring that as well.

You should try it Remember to draw in the dan tien as you breathe in and expand your abs completely at the exhale, and see that your breath goes deep. No tension anywhere in the body. Try this while sitting and just standing, look it up, it might help you keep your breath good even when walking fast or running. Just a thought

 

Hey man, thanks for the tip!

[3bob]

Agreed that realization is not limited to those two. It is when we drop all systems and schools that we transform.

 

Agreed in the sense that we can not carry systems and schools where they they can not be taken.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Hey man, thanks for the tip!

Anytime!

[Mokona]

There is an uncomfortable effect to reverse breathing, and I admit I'm having trouble typing and doing it at the same time. Multi-tasking, yeesh.

[Mokona]

Maybe don't force it? My breathing seems to cycle in and out of reverse breathing spontaneously.

 

Sounds good. I'll try to be more relaxed. It's only that I have to exert will power to breath this way and its been overstretching everything I suppose.

[Rocky Lionmouth]

Maybe don't force it? My breathing seems to cycle in and out of reverse breathing spontaneously.

My body does that too, kinda sneaks up on me

 

Sounds good. I'll try to be more relaxed. It's only that I have to exert will power to breath this way and its been overstretching everything I suppose.

 

When i started doing it there was tension everywhere and exhaustion, sweats and whatnot. But difficulties are normal in the beginning since you're doing the exact opposite movement of what you have practiced earlier with ab-breathing.

I experience the same thing everytime i learn a new technique in kungfu or qigong, muscles don't know what to do and struggle to break the already established patterns (human body is a great example of inertia at work). I had to establish this new way of motion in my physical repertoire first, THEN learn to fine tune all the synapses and nerves and shave off all the unnecessary movement and tension. As with everything, it's a gradual process.

 

Try to do it as a breathing meditation, just sit in your favourite posture and do nothing other than reverse breathing, no visualizations, nothing, more like a litteral Zazen approach, just explore the technique and the sensations it generates.

It took me quite some time and practice to get a fluid motion and i still unintentionally "do it wrong" a lot (don't focus on right or wrong, stay neutral in your mind and don't expect anything to happen). Once you get familiar with it you'll start to feel it's effects on your body, they will be positive.

[manitou]

Agreed that realization is not limited to those two. It is when we drop all systems and schools that we transform.

 

 

There we go! The room where all paths meet is the room where all structure has been understood and uprooted in order to get to the Void. It seems to also be the room which is infused with love as its base truth; not in a sense where love is reserved only for the good actors; but for the bad actors as well, as no judgment is involved. This is also the room of wu-wei, or mastering the art of Do-Nothing and allowing the Way of the Tao to have full reign. It is a room of many synchronicities when one is inhabiting it, an indication that you are living in the Tao and not dwelling in the ego battles of everyday life.