Eating and Running?

[NeiChuan]

Hey everyone, sorry this isn't related to chi so much but I guess you could say running is its own kind of meditation, so hopefully this thread won't be moved haha.

 

Anyway

 

I've been having a hard time knowing what to eat before running.. I drank some natures valley fruit/vegetable drink and I felt like throwing up half a mile into the run. Which really bums me out cause I just recovered from alot of soreness and had to stop my run about a quarter in.

 

I also had some oatmeal.

 

What works best for you? Thanks

[sameesh]

A traditional chinese pure-bland therapeutic porridge would be best.

 

I combine brown rice, white beans, buckwheat, and coix (job's tears) and season with coriander, ginger, black pepper, cinnamon, cloves, and nutmeg. A small amount of miso or soy sauce or plain salt can be added.

 

The idea is minimal added sugar and oil, and of course no proccessing (other than thorough simmering in water)

 

What specific grains/seeds and spices to use depend on your constitution, current health concerns, climate/weather you are living in, and so forth.

 

It is hot, nutritious, readily assimilated..great for dealing with all manner of pathogenic influences, I have devised my recipie to deal with dampness and heat, typical Westerner stuff.

 

If you are serious about finding a better breakfast/way of eating in general, simply google terms like "jook" "congee" "medicinal porridge" and so forth: good luck.

[NeiChuan]

A traditional chinese pure-bland therapeutic porridge would be best.

 

I combine brown rice, white beans, buckwheat, and coix (job's tears) and season with coriander, ginger, black pepper, cinnamon, cloves, and nutmeg. A small amount of miso or soy sauce or plain salt can be added.

 

The idea is minimal added sugar and oil, and of course no proccessing (other than thorough simmering in water)

 

What specific grains/seeds and spices to use depend on your constitution, current health concerns, climate/weather you are living in, and so forth.

 

It is hot, nutritious, readily assimilated..great for dealing with all manner of pathogenic influences, I have devised my recipie to deal with dampness and heat, typical Westerner stuff.

 

If you are serious about finding a better breakfast/way of eating in general, simply google terms like "jook" "congee" "medicinal porridge" and so forth: good luck.

 

 

definitely look into it, thanks alot.

[Aetherous]

A piece of toast. Then I eat more after the run.

[NeiChuan]

A piece of toast. Then I eat more after the run.

 

sounds simple enough. I'll try it haha.

[balance.]

I'm personally rather fond of a spoonful of chunky peanut butter, and a piece of particularly dark chocolate..

 

... a great deal of sustaining power in a small package.

 

 

 

balance.

[island]

Lentils.

[NeiChuan]

Hm how do you guys view eating more the night before a morning run? Then just taking some water before and during the run?

 

Think that'd work pretty well?

[Non]

Hm how do you guys view eating more the night before a morning run? Then just taking some water before and during the run?

 

Think that'd work pretty well?

 

 

Being that fruits digest fastest. Then more complex carbs, then proteins and then fats. But some say one shouldn't really exercise until 6-8 hrs after really concentrated protein has been digested.

 

Complex carbs I'd say are best, but make sure they are digested fully. Even if your stomach has gone down your stomach might still be processing it so I usually wait quite a while after eating to do exercise. It can slow you down...

[Taomeow]

Hm how do you guys view eating more the night before a morning run? Then just taking some water before and during the run?

 

Think that'd work pretty well?

 

Yup, you don't really need to eat before exercising -- moreover, eating right before any practice, whether running, qigong, or even a sitting meditation is rather counterproductive. I've heard a saying, "you have room in your stomach for food or for qi -- take your pick." I've been taught that you shouldn't be very hungry when practicing (therefore, eat some time in advance) but you want to try to avoid doing anything on a full stomach other than digesting your food. That's because not only qi but also blood goes where the action is taking place. Food in the stomach signals to the body to increase the blood supply to the stomach in order to facilitate the action of the stomach muscles (did you know your stomach has muscles in need of exercise? I'll tell you more in a moment...) If you run on a full stomach, you have to split your blood flow between two equally demanding tasks, and as a result neither one will get an adequate supply. For the same reason, it's not a good idea to read while eating. The masters' simple rule of "presence" -- "when I eat, I eat, when I sleep, I sleep" is physiologically very sound, and can be extended to "when I run, I run." Meaning, I'm not trying to digest my food while running.

 

Then again, I'm not a fan of running as a form of exercise. I do walking qigong. On an empty stomach.

 

Now about the stomach muscles. Been reading Gurdjieff's autobiographical "Meetings With Remarkable Men." He describes, among other things, a meeting in his youth with a holy sage and a meal they had together, with a bunch of other people present. Everybody, including the sage, finished their meal while the young Gurdjieff was still nowhere near done because at the time he practiced yoga and its teachings required him to chew his food very thoroughly, something like 32 times per mouthful, to completely liquefy it before swallowing. The sage watched him do this and then asked, "Why are you eating like this?" Gurdjieff explained the rationale behind this, pre-digesting food with thorough mastication and with saliva, making it more available for absorption, blah, blah. The sage shook his head and said, "You are doing great harm to your body." How come? Well, he explained, the stomach is a muscular organ, and like any other muscle group in the body, it needs exercise in order for the muscles not to atrophy. If you never challenge it with strenuous tasks, if your jaw muscles are the ones doing all the work, the stomach will grow lazy and lose all its strength and become feeble and sickly as you grow older. So the opposite of what you're doing should be done to keep it in shape: while young and strong, you must swallow your food in large chunks, and even swallow some bones on occasion! This will train your internal muscles, which is a lot more important for health than what you do to train your external ones.

 

I don't know if this is true, but Gurdjieff apparently immediately perceived it as the truth and followed the sage's advice from then on. He also dumped his yogic breathing exercises after further conversations... but don't let me recite the whole book here.

[island]

Running on an empty stomach is not such a good idea, but then again, running on a full stomach is not a good idea either, however, a small snack 1 hour before a run is not such a bad idea. Every person has different needs, listen to your body.

[simply puzzled]

I have a friend that used to be a nutritionist for Olympic marathon runners. While I know you're not running at that level, one of the things she said she gave them prior to runs were flax seeds. They have a lot of calories, a high percentage of fat (oil), and they are very light and easy to digest so they don't make you feel full when you're running. Maybe try a handful of flax seeds before you go out?

Edited October 26, 2010 by simply puzzled

[NeiChuan]

I have a friend that used to be a nutritionist for Olympic marathon runners. While I know you're not running at that level, one of the things she said she gave them prior to runs were flax seeds. They have a lot of calories, a high percentage of fat (oil), and they are very light and easy to digest so they don't make you feel full when you're running. Maybe try a handful of flax seeds before you go out?

 

I'll try it.

[Gerard]

Let me say something: running as a frequent activity is not good. And not only running, the rest of the aerobic activities are not recommended either unless they are carried with a very gentle manner without exhausting ourselves. But generally speaking I don't recommend following them in the long run.

 

Think of the reason...I'll give you a clue: It has got to do with the Wu Xing.

[Taomeow]

Let me say something: running as a frequent activity is not good. And not only running, the rest of the aerobic activities are not recommended either unless they are carried with a very gentle manner without exhausting ourselves. But generally speaking I don't recommend following them in the long run.

 

Think of the reason...I'll give you a clue: It has got to do with the Wu Xing.

 

'tis true.

[balance.]

Let me say something: running as a frequent activity is not good. And not only running, the rest of the aerobic activities are not recommended either unless they are carried with a very gentle manner without exhausting ourselves. But generally speaking I don't recommend following them in the long run.

 

Think of the reason...I'll give you a clue: It has got to do with the Wu Xing.

 

 

'tis true.

 

 

Alright, alright... Not being well versed in the subtleties of the wu xing....

 

...I'll bite.

 

 

Why should one avoid intense, aerobic activity?

[Taomeow]

Alright, alright... Not being well versed in the subtleties of the wu xing....

 

...I'll bite.

 

 

Why should one avoid intense, aerobic activity?

 

Because it creates a vicious cycle between the heart and the kidneys. All organs are functionally interdependent, and in a perfectly healthy body this means particular ratios of energy distribution between them and particular rates of pulsation that have to match up. A healthy heart pulsates at an average of 72 beats per minute, a healthy kidney, at an average of 36 beats per minute, we have two kidneys, therefore together they pulsate at 72 beats per minute, matching the heart exactly. (Fire-Water in perfect balance.) Now if you go running, you speed up your heart. As you do, you increase the blood flow to the periphery at the cost of decreasing blood supply to the internal organs. Metabolites of this increased peripheral activity have to be taken care of by the kidneys which filter urine out of the blood. Increasing your metabolic rate with a strenuous activity means more work for the kidneys, and they have to perform this surplus of tasks on a lower-than-normal blood supply, and at a pulsation rate that is now mismatched with that of the heart, since you can't speed up the pulse of the kidneys to the same rate you can speed up your heart by running. The heart will try to pump still faster to overcome the blockages created in the kidneys by its own already-faster-than-normal rate. This wears down both the heart and the kidneys, wastes your internal energy, and throws off the wuxing balance of all other organs of the body. As an occasional spree (the way children run when they need to discharge extra energy) running is perfectly fine, but as a regular willpower-induced activity (the way joggers run when they decide, in the head, that it's a good way to keep in shape) it is depleting to the whole system. (Willpower originates in the kidneys, so forcing yourself to do things you have to do against your body's protests further depletes them.)

 

Hope this makes sense. If not, Dr. Stephen Chang explains it better in his book, "The Complete System of Self-Healing," where I first came across the idea (later much corroborated by other taoist sources), many moons ago.

[Aetherous]

As an occasional spree (the way children run when they need to discharge extra energy) running is perfectly fine, but as a regular willpower-induced activity (the way joggers run when they decide, in the head, that it's a good way to keep in shape) it is depleting to the whole system. (Willpower originates in the kidneys, so forcing yourself to do things you have to do against your body's protests further depletes them.)

 

Nice.

 

Although it's still true that we require at a minimum 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise 5 days per week. Walking counts.

[Taomeow]

Nice.

 

Although it's still true that we require at a minimum 30 minutes of cardiovascular exercise 5 days per week. Walking counts.

 

Yup. Brisk walking gives you 80% of the workout of running, without taxing the body. And since I started Wang Liping's walking qigong, it's a different world altogether. I haven't been practicing it till recently even though I learned it way back when... I think I mentioned I had a year of slacking... but now I'm getting back on track, and now I'm in love with the practice. I do it anywhere between 30 minutes and one hour almost every day now. At the end, I feel supercharged and energized and clear, no tiredness whatsoever even if I started out tired.

[NeiChuan]

Because it creates a vicious cycle between the heart and the kidneys. All organs are functionally interdependent, and in a perfectly healthy body this means particular ratios of energy distribution between them and particular rates of pulsation that have to match up. A healthy heart pulsates at an average of 72 beats per minute, a healthy kidney, at an average of 36 beats per minute, we have two kidneys, therefore together they pulsate at 72 beats per minute, matching the heart exactly. (Fire-Water in perfect balance.) Now if you go running, you speed up your heart. As you do, you increase the blood flow to the periphery at the cost of decreasing blood supply to the internal organs. Metabolites of this increased peripheral activity have to be taken care of by the kidneys which filter urine out of the blood. Increasing your metabolic rate with a strenuous activity means more work for the kidneys, and they have to perform this surplus of tasks on a lower-than-normal blood supply, and at a pulsation rate that is now mismatched with that of the heart, since you can't speed up the pulse of the kidneys to the same rate you can speed up your heart by running. The heart will try to pump still faster to overcome the blockages created in the kidneys by its own already-faster-than-normal rate. This wears down both the heart and the kidneys, wastes your internal energy, and throws off the wuxing balance of all other organs of the body. As an occasional spree (the way children run when they need to discharge extra energy) running is perfectly fine, but as a regular willpower-induced activity (the way joggers run when they decide, in the head, that it's a good way to keep in shape) it is depleting to the whole system. (Willpower originates in the kidneys, so forcing yourself to do things you have to do against your body's protests further depletes them.)

 

Hope this makes sense. If not, Dr. Stephen Chang explains it better in his book, "The Complete System of Self-Healing," where I first came across the idea (later much corroborated by other taoist sources), many moons ago.

 

Hm sounds like it makes sense but there are marathoners who live to very old age.. Perhaps having a slightly off balance wu xing isn't so bad?

 

or am I missing something?

[Gerard]

Not only what TM just said but also: lungs/metal...chop liver/wood

 

Athletes develop chronic health problems in their old age because of that. Their sick livers (liver, chief commander) fail and that kills the emperor (heart).

 

Best way of exercising was devised by our Daoist friends from mother China: Internal Martial Arts.

[Mal]

[balance.]

Because it creates a vicious cycle between the heart and the kidneys. All organs are functionally interdependent, and in a perfectly healthy body this means particular ratios of energy distribution between them and particular rates of pulsation that have to match up. A healthy heart pulsates at an average of 72 beats per minute, a healthy kidney, at an average of 36 beats per minute, we have two kidneys, therefore together they pulsate at 72 beats per minute, matching the heart exactly. (Fire-Water in perfect balance.) Now if you go running, you speed up your heart. As you do, you increase the blood flow to the periphery at the cost of decreasing blood supply to the internal organs. Metabolites of this increased peripheral activity have to be taken care of by the kidneys which filter urine out of the blood. Increasing your metabolic rate with a strenuous activity means more work for the kidneys, and they have to perform this surplus of tasks on a lower-than-normal blood supply, and at a pulsation rate that is now mismatched with that of the heart, since you can't speed up the pulse of the kidneys to the same rate you can speed up your heart by running. The heart will try to pump still faster to overcome the blockages created in the kidneys by its own already-faster-than-normal rate. This wears down both the heart and the kidneys, wastes your internal energy, and throws off the wuxing balance of all other organs of the body. As an occasional spree (the way children run when they need to discharge extra energy) running is perfectly fine, but as a regular willpower-induced activity (the way joggers run when they decide, in the head, that it's a good way to keep in shape) it is depleting to the whole system. (Willpower originates in the kidneys, so forcing yourself to do things you have to do against your body's protests further depletes them.)

 

Hope this makes sense. If not, Dr. Stephen Chang explains it better in his book, "The Complete System of Self-Healing," where I first came across the idea (later much corroborated by other taoist sources), many moons ago.

 

 

Not only what TM just said but also: lungs/metal...chop liver/wood

 

Athletes develop chronic health problems in their old age because of that. Their sick livers (liver, chief commander) fail and that kills the emperor (heart).

 

Best way of exercising was devised by our Daoist friends from mother China: Internal Martial Arts.

 

 

Well, shoot.

 

It's a pity that yous twos posts aren't less consistently accurate/informative... As I'll actually have to consider carefully what's been said here as opposed to just letting the rain continue to patter off my back and run down my legs....

 

..Especially as I find tremendous fulfillment and enjoyment in bouts of high intensity exercise, off-set by days of finer-fare and mellower-pursuit...

 

I feel that the body responds properly to given changes in stimulus and though it depends on the users level of awareness/development, the signals one receives from the body can be interpreted properly and truly... Not having Durkhrods opened third eye, this intuitive feeling/diagnosis will have to suffice for the time.... And, although after particularly harrowing days I may be followed about by a small procession of aches and pains, the underlying message radiated from my body is still one of calm, litheness, solidity, balance, contentment.... But, this assessment of mine could suffer from distortion, given that it's viewed through a youthful, poorly-constructed and crudely-developed internal lens... I know that I still have a great distance to cross before these essential critical feeling faculties are fine tuned and infallible.

 

That said, I'm a mesomorph, and I've maintained a high level of activity since I was little... I began playing hockey when I was five.. Physical exertion and the testing and pushing of personal limit and ability has always brought me joy and seemed natural and right.... A physically sedate existence, albeit driven by alchemical gymnastics-- powerful and far reaching though they are, would strike me, personally, as imbalanced and incomplete... For me that would constitute a denial of a very fundamental aspect my own being..

 

And as I've just said to a member here via pm, I feel that a strong alchemical regimen must be augmented/bolstered/balanced by a properly trying/receptive/adaptive/integrative physical regimen... I've no interest in becoming a body builder, as posts of mine have made clear, but I do feel that tempering the body through fire and teaching the mind not to give up at the first sign of struggle is important... While not at all my intention at current, isn't there a gateway here to the denial and letting go of the body?

 

And what about those who, after having delved deeply enough into the physical paths, have seen hints of the spirit and begun the Great Work? Peter Ralston comes most immediately to mind, but there are certainly hundreds (thousands!) of individuals who have seen something inherently connected between the physical and the spiritual.... And these citizens most certainly didn't give up all but charged, low-intensity, physical exercises upon reaching deeper understanding, but in all likelihood, found comfort in unity and further development in integration as opposed to division and isolation...

 

..Mustn't we first learn to wield the sword with effort before can we wield it without? Can't we only know effortlessness by first knowing struggle? .... Ha, and now that I've said that, and as I suppose I already well knew, there is a point when the path is taken far enough that the body must be let go of.... But, in my current uninformed and inexperienced state, I feel that to restrict oneself to nothing but mellow to moderate exercise while still growing and developing would prove to be more a hindrance than a boon... And thus far, even with my forecasted sessions of stormy, high intensity exercise, I continue to heal deeply from old, accepted war wounds.... But, it is/may certainly be true that I'm not maximizing potential here.

 

So, being youthful, ignorant, overly-sure of my own abilities, overly-generous in my assessment of personal health, deeply-confident in the quality of my own judgment, I, for now, will maintain my current physical and formless exercises...... until my heart and kidneys spontaneously combust (or crystallize ) ..... at which point I'll then think back upon the selfless and considerate advice bestowed upon me and the other bums by Taomeow and Durkhrod.... and with head bowed, I'll wonder just how the hell I could've allowed such brazen, youthful exuberance and the extraordinary confidence instilled in those who just-don't-know to carry me so far from reason, safety, and an flawless wu xing reading.

 

That very last bit does fairly reek of sarcasm, but I assure you I'm sincere... Because I don't know all that very much about the wu-xing and how it applies to me in the everyday (sounds like there's a book in the making here), and so I really can't see what sorts of repercussions are to be expected as I continue down this, reckless and intense path.... So, we'll see what experience, age, and wisdom have to offer as days drift passed... And until the time of the white beard comes, I'll have to allow my body to maintain its barometer-vigil and its clumsy, but confident internal dialogue with me.

 

........ that said, I'll not loose sleep (for the time) over the pursuit of activities that are deemed healthy and beneficial when compared to smoking, drinking and ejaculation.

 

 

Thanks again, Taomeow and Durkhrod... I'm most appreciative of the knowledge you two choose to drop upon us from time to time and hope you don't take my initial unwillingness to adopt the above advice as a sign of disrespect... I hope you two continue to drop coins to keep my doubt machine running soundly.

 

 

best.

 

 

 

balance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

* some thoughts... Not sure how pertinent these are.... All-nighters spent working on papers seems to give me a flare for the creation of the meandering and unfocused document.. tremendous.

 

 

 

I feel that we should balance and reconcile this sort division, the all spirit or all body approach to physical maintenance and advance with a discerning and willow nature so that we don't lop off more of the limb than is necessary to complete our work by being too harsh, hasty, inflexible or narrow in our assessment of things as they are.

 

... and the more I think about it, the less certain I am of the "right" answer here... But then again, there may not be any sort of definitive ultimatum. I think cultivation is extraordinarily personal and that it's generally a futile, intellectual, masturbatory exercise to discuss our varying perspectives and ideologies because when it comes down to it, we each will have walked and will walk entirely different paths... Driven by different motivations and feelings and defined by a different set of experiences...

 

There are great pools of collected wisdom (like the wu-xing) that have been passed down to us and deserve more than just our quiet acknowledgment and acceptance as law immovable.... Doubt, as Socrates and many others knew, is the prerequisite for "truth", and eventually, we must decide upon and experience for ourselves the truth of those truths ...

 

....Teachers, masters and elders can offer up to us the truths of their experiences, given to us selflessly and only for our benefit and continued growth, but we must remember, delusive, immature and hasty though we may be, the truths of our fathers and mothers and grandfathers and grandmothers may not resonate in our lives nor stand fixed, immovable and strong beneath us like they did for those before us.

 

The sutras, the great truths of the buddhas, are not powerful enough, in and of themselves, to take anyone to the Light on faith alone... Those words, powerful, deep, inky chasms in paper, must still be doubted and experienced before they resonate with truth for you....

 

 

 

mm.. Well, I do apologize for the tangent, but I do believe I'm done for now..

 

 

godspeed.

 

 

 

balance.

Edited October 28, 2010 by balance.

[Taomeow]

Hi Balance,

 

thanks for sharing your thoughts. Here's a few of mine on the run, on your heels, in your dust, so to speak...

 

I didn't expect anyone who enjoys running to drop it at the drop of a hat... um, a forum post. Merely answering a question as to the origins of my own position on the subject.

 

My daughter, who responds with a few miles of running to any and all life's challenges, joys and sorrows, won't listen to me either. So far the only adverse effect I've noticed is that by now she is less flexible than me even though she could spontaneously do any level yoga when she was five, while I discovered the joys of flexibility when I was past thirty. To me it looks like a runner's body is aging at a rate somewhat faster than a taiji body, though of course a child of mine will still always be twenty years younger than me, which will always make any wisdom, or its opposite, which the next twenty years might bring, somewhat difficult to accept until it is experienced.

 

Two points for consideration for the next twenty years though. Much as "trust your body" is my own mantra, I predicate it with "but know your body and understand its meanings precisely first." Knowing your body takes some time, because it is a body of changes, so whatever you trusted yesterday may not be true today anymore... and whatever you misunderstood today (the generic "you" of course, not you personally) might, taken to its logical further developments, turn into a shocking tomorrow's surprise. E.g., feeling great after strenuous exercise means only that -- you feel great... and few people are tempted to ask "why" while feeling great. Ah but it's a million dollar question. Not to say it's the case in every single case, but just for future consideration: a very common reason for feeling great after strenuous exercise (so great that other signals from the same body, aches and pains you did mention, are ignored as insignificant) is that the activity is actually causing damage and the body responds to damage by releasing endorphins, internal opiates, and even LSD-like substances (sic!) -- in short, painkillers and mind-soothers. Which causes quite a few strenuously exercising folks to get addicted to their own internal chemicals. Runner's high is not called a "high" for nothing.

 

And another point... I got a PM from one of the bums who is facing multiple joints replacement surgeries and is in such pain that even reading the message brought tears to my eyes. Now fifty, he laments bitterly having pushed his body to the limits when he was younger. Maybe the two of you should talk?.. 'cause unlike me, he was at some point exactly where you are now. Not to scare you away from something you enjoy... but, again, so you know where some of the "anti-strenuous" ideas are coming from.

 

In any event, some people may be sturdy enough to withstand with impunity what others can't -- I hope you are in this former category. Oh, and read the book on Tarahumara running techniques, if nothing else, you will probably be convinced to choose your running shoes wisely.

[NeiChuan]

 

In any event, some people may be sturdy enough to withstand with impunity what others can't -- I hope you are in this former category. Oh, and read the book on Tarahumara running techniques, if nothing else, you will probably be convinced to choose your running shoes wisely.

 

Hm, the reason I've actually been a bit uneasy about the anti strenuous activity advice, is because I read born to run.

 

Basically telling me I don't exactly "have" to slow down.. I use to always walk/run barefoot as a kid to, so it isn't a change really. Anyway I just didn't wana start out with it, felt like I may be forcing info on some people, if that makes any sense to you.