Women

[Cameron]

The Women appreciation thread! Let's here it. Some poetry, how women have inspired you in your life. How they have pissed you off. Of course women are all as unique and different as flowers with there own characterics. For example, today I had an interaction with a mega bitch of the highest caliber immedietly followed by talking with a gorgeous, intelligent female who lifts your spirit just being around her and beautiful smile..

 

 

ps. Also..what woman have taught you about the Tao so sean doesn't move it it off topic

Edited May 12, 2006 by Cameron

[Peregrino]

Anyone ever heard of *limerence*? It's something that affects (afflicts) men and women equally, but I as a man refuse to succumb to its lure anymore when considering women. I'll give affection and respect, *when merited*, but thanks to serious re-evaluations of my behavior and belief system, I don't feed the limerent impulses anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

 

On that note, it's interesting to contrast the original "Louie Louie" lyrics with the Black Flag version.

 

Original:

 

Three nights and days me sailed the sea.

Me think of girl constantly.

On the ship, I dream she there.

I smell the rose in her hair.

 

 

Black Flag:

 

You know the pain

That's in my heart--

It just shows

I'm not very smart!

 

******************

 

I don't go around acting like some PUA, but I must say that I finally found the best female companionship of my life only after letting go of all the "sensitive nice guy" conditioning I was brought up on.

 

Peace--it's a yang thang too!

Peregrino

[Yoda]

nice poetry!

[sean]

What do you think of this quote:

 

Sometimes a woman will make a request of her man in plain English, not to get him to do something, but to see if he is so weak that he will do it. In other words, she is testing his capacity to do what is right, not what she is asking for. In such cases, if the man does what his woman asks, she will be disappointed and angry. The man will have no idea why she is angry or what could possibly please her. He must remember that her trust is engendered not by him fulfilling her requests, but by him magnifying love, consciousness, and success in their lives, in spite of her requests.

--- David Deida

 

Sean

[Peregrino]

I find David Deida *very* interesting, and often right on the ball--despite his inexplicable enthusiasm for Bubba Adi Franklin Free Jones . . .

 

I've heard women's "testing" behavior (as opposed to legitimate, reasonable requests) described as a kind of screening to see if a man will really stand up for them when the shit hits the fan; i.e., "If you can't stand up *to* her, how will you stand up *for* her."

 

I used to be wary of any advice not to take a woman's words at face value (and there are still many times when a man should), but now I can see in many cases, including (and often especially) in the cases of feminists I've known, there's often a vast contradiction between what they say and do. As Margaret Cho said, "I'm a feminist, but I still like my man to be a little al dente." I'll go one further and say that, even with this admission, she's not being candid enough! Then again, "spiritual" PUAs like Stephane Hemon (Ideagasms.com) claim that most women themselves aren't aware of their contradictions. I'll leave it to the meditating, self-aware female posters to comment on that . . . And I keep in mind that without cultivating self-reflection I know I'm incapable of discerning my own blind spots.

 

I don't buy into unevolved notions of coming across "Alpha" or "High Status" when that's just a front for deep-seated *male* insecurities; nonetheless, a refusal to put up with bad behavior has in the end gotten me far more respect from women than being perpetually gentle, patient, a tireless listener, etc.

 

--Peregrino

[Cameron]

Anyone ever heard of *limerence*? It's something that affects (afflicts) men and women equally, but I as a man refuse to succumb to its lure anymore when considering women. I'll give affection and respect, *when merited*, but thanks to serious re-evaluations of my behavior and belief system, I don't feed the limerent impulses anymore: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limerence

 

Yup..nice guy attitude does nothing for chicks..especially the really hot ones...Seems like you basically want to act like your interested but at the same time dont' give a shit...

 

But if your in a tantric realationship or something probably it can go a little deeper than that. But most guys(and girls) have little to no interest in that sort of thing so the bad boy mentality remains the standard of sexiness.

 

Probably also the "bad boy" is the fun to be with. When I get in that mode I definetly sense a different reaction from girls. And my PUA friends that do this are all about creating the exciting experience, with an element of danger/unknown involved.

[Peregrino]

Even in the deeper relationships, I think a man still needs to be unpredictable (which doesn't mean "undependable" or "irresponsible") at times to keep a woman's attraction going. Of course, it's a two-way street, and no woman who wants to remain in a committed relationship with me can think she's free from the necessity to keep surprising me in alluring ways from time to time. Attraction and affection are not the same thing, and a fruitful, lasting pair bond needs to keep renewing both, at least if you want to attain any sort of dual cultivation rather than morphing into some sort of platonic friendship as the years go on.

 

He he, I've actually gotten great advice from gays and lesbians as detached observers of heterosexual dynamics. My lesbian sister used to say, "I don't understand how straight men let their wives and girlfriends belittle and manipulate them so much--I would never let MY girlfriend do that to me!" I also have a gay friend who once told me, "Guys who bake cookies and apologize all the time DO NOT get the girl in the end." At best, they'll be LBJF'd. (Relegated to the "Let's just be friends category.")

Edited May 25, 2006 by Peregrino

[Cameron]

Even in the deeper relationships, I think a man still needs to be unpredictable (which does mean "undependable" or "irresponsible") at times to keep a woman's attraction going. Of course, it's a two-way street, and no woman who wants to remain in a committed relationship with me can think she's free from the necessity to keep surprising me in alluring ways from time to time. Attraction and affection are not the same thing, and a fruitful, lasting pair bond needs to keep renewing both, at least if you want to attain any sort of dual cultivation rather than morphing into some sort of platonic friendship as the years go on.

 

He he, I've actually gotten great advice from gays and lesbians as detached observers of heterosexual dynamics. My lesbian sister used to say, "I don't understand how straight men let their wives and girlfriends belittle and manipulate them so much--I would never let MY girlfriend do that to me!" I also have a gay friend who once told me, "Guys who bake cookies and apologize all the time DO NOT get the girl in the end." At best, they'll be LBJF'd. (Relegated to the "Let's just be friends category.")

 

Good stuff. I'll have to carry out experiments this summer and get to the bottom of this

[Peregrino]

what's a PUA?

 

It stands for "Pick-up Artist"--it's a subculture I've studied out of purely (ahem) anthropological interest. The way the PUAs "model" each other's behavior reads like pure mimetic theory. Actually, a lot of them swear by NLP, but I've noticed several who are into martial arts and apply what they deem to be "Taoist" principles to the way they approach women. (Carlos Xuma is a good example--he's a dating guru AND a martial arts instructor!)

 

Try

 

www.fastseduction.com

www.ideagasms.com ( though it's a bit woo-woo!),

 

and zillions more sites you'll find if you google "seduction community." There's also a funny, but at times sobering tell-all bestselling book by seduction guru Neil Strauss called _The Game_. He does renounce his PUA ways (more or less) when he meets the woman he believes to be his soul-mate, but that doesn't mean he lets his "menergy" get too domesticated, har har har!

 

Funny how much these guys tend to become rivals with each other and tear each other down, even though they claim to be entirely pro-male. (Reminds me of a lot of radical feminists, actually.) Still, they do come up with some great quotes! As David Deangelo (or "David DeAnushole," as a bitter rival calls him) says regarding that "push-pull, don't reveal your whole hand at once" dynamic, a man erotically interested in a woman shouldn't be so needy as to seek to communicate with her CONSTANTLY, but should rather, "Give her the gift of missing you!"

[mYTHmAKER]

What do you think of this quote:

 

Sometimes a woman will make a request of her man in plain English, not to get him to do something, but to see if he is so weak that he will do it. In other words, she is testing his capacity to do what is right, not what she is asking for. In such cases, if the man does what his woman asks, she will be disappointed and angry. The man will have no idea why she is angry or what could possibly please her. He must remember that her trust is engendered not by him fulfilling her requests, but by him magnifying love, consciousness, and success in their lives, in spite of her requests.

--- David Deida

 

Sean

 

I think he's got the wrong woman.

[SheepishLord]

You're a PUA??? Awesome! I go sarging in NYC every other week with one of my wings or my pivot.

 

Myself and my wings rock natural (direct) game these days with a little bit of indirect here and there which can be useful at times. I go indirect with my pivot, ironically...

 

Since this is a woman appreciation thread, let me give a shout-out to my 1st girlfriend who was a stripper who had a mouth like a vacuum cleaner mounted on a piston. To think I left her to be a Taoist! That's like Siddharta leaving the palace!

 

P.S. Neil Strauss is a tool!

Edited May 13, 2006 by SheepishLord

[lezlie]

Caroline Myss really inspires me and I'd like to share two of my favorite quotes from her...

 

"At the end of the day, if it isn't funny, I don't need it."

 

"The greatest gift you can give to the world is a healthy you... and that's it."

 

The second quote is actually how her CD on self esteem ends. It's a beautiful listen.

[sean]

More Deida quotes:

 

"Keeping your word" is a masculine trait, in men or women. A person with a feminine essence may not keep her word, yet it is not exactly "lying". In the femine reality, words and facts take a second place to emotions and the shifting moods of relationship. When she says, "I hate you", or "I'll never move to Texas", or "I don't want to go to the movies", it is often more a reflection of a transient feeling wave than a well considered stance with respect to events and experience. On the other hand, the masculine means what he says. A man's word is his honor. The femine says what it feels. A woman's word is her true expression in the moment.

 

...

 

A man gets resentful and frustrated with his woman when he is too afraid, weak, or unskilled to penetrate her moods and test into love. He wishes she were easier to deal with. But it is not entirely her fault that she is bitchy and complaining. It is also a reflection of her lack of being penetrated by love. When a man resigns, and simply tolerates his woman's self-destructive moods, it is a sign of weakness. His attitude has become one of wanting to escape women and the world, rather than wanting to serve women and the world into love. A man shouldn't tolerate bitchy and complaining moodiness in his woman, but he should serve her and love her with every ounce of his skill and perserverance. Then, if she cannot or will not open in love, he might decide to end his relationship with her, harboring no anger or resentment, because he knows he has done everything he could.

 

...

 

A woman sometimes seems to want to be the most important thing in her man's life. However, if she is the most important thing, then she feels her man has made her the number one priority and is not fully dedicated or directed to divine growth and service. She will feel her man's dependence on her for his happiness, and this will make her feel smothered by his neediness and clinging. A woman really wants her man to be totally dedicated to his highest purpose -- and also to love her fully. Although she would never admit it, she wants to feel that her man would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for the sake of his highest purpose.

 

 

Sean

[Emelgee]

A woman sometimes seems to want to be the most important thing in her man's life. However, if she is the most important thing, then she feels her man has made her the number one priority and is not fully dedicated or directed to divine growth and service. She will feel her man's dependence on her for his happiness, and this will make her feel smothered by his neediness and clinging. A woman really wants her man to be totally dedicated to his highest purpose -- and also to love her fully. Although she would never admit it, she wants to feel that her man would be willing to sacrifice their relationship for the sake of his highest purpose.

Sean

 

 

So accurate an assessment, it hurts!

 

Love me...but don't love me too much

 

Emelgee

[neimad]

i've been thinking about this.

 

unfortunately i have 'nice guy' sydnrome.... but thats me, thats the way i enjoy acting towards anyone. i enjoy making tea for people, cooking for people, sharing whatever i have with anyone that is receptive to it.

and i love to share love.

 

unfortunately it's also true that in order to get with most women this kind of attitude isn't appreciated.

 

my opinion is now this:

 

if you, as a woman, have a low enough self-esteem to need to be treated in an unfriendly manner then you deserve to be miserable with a man that treats you like a piece of dirt and beats you daily.

 

i'm out of the game, i'm not interested in petty people. if a woman wants someone genuine who will treat them with respect, who will support and nurture growth and goals... then i am happy to be with that.

 

if not, don't even bother talking to me.

 

 

yes i'm a little bitter, you women are frustrating.

[Cameron]

I feel you Like when I go to clubs and see all these guys just walk up to a beautiful girl and start grabbing her ass..I guess on some level that is fun..I just have this feeling like saying hello and making_some_eye contact before I start squezing and spanking your ass.

 

But I guess most of those girls at the club are not there for realatiknships but to have some sex.

 

The whole thing just isn't very conducive to the taoist, slow sexual alchemy..that lifestlye. I think long term relationships are the way to go....even if it's with more than one woman you start to 'connect' more.

 

Plato will preobably say this is utter bullshit and no alchemy happens with woman anyway..just fucking....if you want to cultivate meditate and do good deeds..

 

And a long term sexual aprtner that supports the whole process is most conducive to that..

 

I guess that should be my goal then?(one of them atleast)

 

Cam

[sean]

So accurate an assessment, it hurts!

 

Love me...but don't love me too much

It took me awhile to get this and not be offended by it. I think women (or men with a strong feminine essence) want to hold and be held by someone who is going somewhere and is going to lovingly take them with, not someone who is so distracted by their presence that they stop their purpose to make the women the entire point of their existence. That is actually a burden for women, am I right?

 

i'm out of the game, i'm not interested in petty people. if a woman wants someone genuine who will treat them with respect, who will support and nurture growth and goals... then i am happy to be with that.

 

if not, don't even bother talking to me.

 

 

yes i'm a little bitter, you women are frustrating.

Hey neimad, I really feel you man. It's a rough game. But women mirror life. Women are no more "difficult" than the world is, which can be horribly painful and difficult but also very pleasant and loving and sweet. I'm not trying to hold women up on a pedestal, because I think there are probably some annoying trends in modern women (as if I have any way of making a real comparison to support this opinion ) but I also think that men have likely "let down" women in the last few generations of "sensitivity training". It's not that women want to be treated like shit, it's just that women with very strong feminine essences are just kind of wild, pulsating, whirling balls of Light that in some ways are energetically craving a powerful, "dark", masculine essence to watch over them (you can see the whole dynamics of strip-clubs right there), protect her and offer a sense of direction and structure. IMO, energetically, the ditzy, drunk slut and the macho, ass-slapping, musclebound jock are kind of a perfect fit. For guys that have a more balanced masculine/feminine essence, they will need a more balanced partner. If you are truly a feminine essenced heterosexual man then you need to understand that you are either going to attract masculine essenced women, who will try to impose direction on you and slap your ass (which is fine, although probably difficult via social conventions) ... or if you attract a feminine essenced partner, one of you will have to "act like a man" sometimes, at least to get things going in the bedroom, but acting against your essence is hard on your body when done long term, so can lead to, ie: her resentment of being forced to take on this role since she really just wants to relax with a masculine essenced partner.

 

To be honest I find that when women do have low self esteem they tend to act needy and go for people that will give them unconditional love. Women with a high/normal self esteem enjoy tension (whether they say they do or not)... tension is created by a dance of attention... you give attention then withhold it... push then pull etc. This is not 'being unfriendly' - it's like a seductive game... it challenges you to be creative and playfull... if you just return to the old, comfortable 'nice guy' behaviour - you're not challenging yourself or the lady in question.

Great post freeform, I really enjoyed reading that.

 

Ok, I am clearly a big fan of Deida, how about more?

 

If a man is very masculine by nature, then he will be attracted to a very feminine woman, who will complement his energy. The more neutral or balanced he is, the more balanced he will prefer his woman. And, if a man is more feminine in nature, his energy will be complemented by the strong direction and purposiveness of a more masculine woman. By understanding their own needs, men can learn to accept the "whole package" of a woman. For instance, a more masculine man can expect that any woman who really turns him on and elivens him will also be relatively wild, undisciplined, "bonkers", chaotic, prone to changing her mind and "lying". Still, from an energetic perspective, this kind of woman will be much more healing and inspiring to him than a more balanced or neutral woman who is steady, reasonable, "trustworthy", and able to say what she means in a way he can understand.

 

...

 

Some women are hotter, some are cooler. In general, blonde, light-skinned, Japanese, and Chinese women are cooler. Dark skinned, brunette, red-headed, Korean, and Polynesian women are hotter. Even though a man might choose to remain in a committed intimacy with one woman, his needs for different temperatures of feminine energy may change over time. A hot woman who aroused his passion several years ago may irritate him now. A cooler woman who soothed his heart several years ago may seem tiresome to him now. By understanding how different temperatures of feminine energy may affect him, a man could make more skillful life choices without confusion.

 

 

Sean

[mYTHmAKER]

neimad' date='May 13 2006, 10:42 PM' post='14449

 

unfortunately i have 'nice guy' sydnrome.... but thats me, thats the way i enjoy acting towards anyone. i enjoy making tea for people, cooking for people, sharing whatever i have with anyone that is receptive to it.

and i love to share love.

unfortunately it's also true that in order to get with most women this kind of attitude isn't appreciated.

 

There is nothing wrong with nice guy syndrome. I have it and haven't done too badly.

In my opinion it is not in the interest of self cultivation to play games. Once you start a game if you stop playing- revert to who you really are - you may have had sex but not much else.

The best relationships are where both parties maintain their own individuality.

You can do things for others and still keep who you are.

Before you even approach a woman instinclively she knows whether she likes you or not.

It doesn't matter what you say - you don't need the coolest pick up line. The only way you can mess up is if your overly obnoxious.

So you can approach, be awkward, trip etc and if she likes you - you are cute - if not your a jerk.

If on the other hand you have the coolest line and she doesn't like you - you're out.

So you can approach anyone anywhere - never hesitate - see someone you like on the street - no response - it wasn't meant to be. The rejection is nothing personal - just different energies not connecting.

 

Attracting women or men has to do with your state of mind.

When you are in love everyone wants a piece of the action.

When you're in a bad place no one wants to go near you.

So cultivate, cultivate, cultivate.

Bitterness may be felt by others and act as a deterrent.

[Yoda]

nice guy syndrome is the way to go. Usually though, when people talk about "NGS" they mean not enough aggression. Meditate more to up your synchronicity and savour-fare and you can be more aggressive in pursuing your goals.

[sean]

But I think we would agree that if you are not really that nice of a guy, and actually have a natural degree of agression and at least some firm decisiveness, then it would be an effort again your nature, against the Tao in a sense, to pretend you are Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAGs is what they are being called even by women in spiritual communities) just to please a woman, right?

[mYTHmAKER]

But I think we would agree that if you are not really that nice of a guy, and actually have a natural degree of agression and at least some firm decisiveness, then it would be an effort again your nature, against the Tao in a sense, to pretend you are Sensitive New Age Guy (SNAGs is what they are being called even by women in spiritual communities) just to please a woman, right?

 

It might be someones nature to pretend he's a sensitive guy in order to get women.

However, it would not be considered right action.

Because it is your nature to kill or steal does not make it ok.

The idea is to work on yourself and change your nature to conform to the tao.

The agression - your true nature - will eventually come out and the relationship will terminate.

[sean]

It might be someones nature to pretend he's a sensitive guy in order to get women.

However, it would not be considered right action.

Because it is your nature to kill or steal does not make it ok.

The idea is to work on yourself and change your nature to conform to the tao.

The agression - your true nature - will eventually come out and the relationship will terminate.

I think maybe we are using the word aggression a little differently. I guess technically the word does have a bad connotation, so it's not really the right word. I will say though that I do see a difference between having aggressive energy and actually manifesting this aggression as physical violence. But perhaps better words are protectiveness, strength, power, decisiveness, direction, purpose, presence, stability. These are qualities that feminine energy, almost by definition, naturally seeks. IMO the ideal of Taoism is not to create a watered down grey soup where every individual is a little island of perfectly nice, sanitary internal balance. I see it more like that the world itself, our interactions with others, with nature, with animals, with the sky, the sun, the moon, etc. ... this is "external" alchemy (external in quotes because the universe is our body one part of which is our individual physical body), and in a sense it's an infinite game, or if you prefer an infinite dance. So at times, perhaps even for an entire lifetime, there are dancers in this play of human alchemy that are more like fire and other human forms that are more like water, and when they come together an arc of sexual alchemy occurs between them. It's not fire's purpose to become half water, or or water's purpose to become half fire, they each have their own natures. They need at least the principle of the other's energy for the alchemy of their destiny, but again, not to become the other or half and half, but to fully embody their own true nature (which is both beyond and also fully is their form). In lovemaking for example ... I'm not sure about you, but IME enjoyable lovemaking involves polarities of strongly embodied feminine and masculine principles, principles of water and fire, of reception and penetration, perhaps these energies occur as "roles" that each partner switches, back and forth, but IMO not in effort to dillute them into one substance. That is IMHO why these energies are called fire and water because obviously the two cannot truly "get along" and fully understand the other, the best we can do is enjoy the dance.

 

Sean

[mYTHmAKER]

I think maybe we are using the word aggression a little differently. I guess technically the word does have a bad connotation, so it's not really the right word. I will say though that I do see a difference between having aggressive energy and actually manifesting this aggression as physical violence. But perhaps better words are protectiveness, strength, power, decisiveness, direction, purpose, presence, stability. These are qualities that feminine energy, almost by definition, naturally seeks.

IMO the ideal of Taoism is not to create a watered down grey soup where every individual is a little island of perfectly nice, sanitary internal balance. I see it more like that the world itself, our interactions with others, with nature, with animals, with the sky, the sun, the moon, etc. ... this is "external" alchemy (external in quotes because the universe is our body one part of which is our individual physical body), and in a sense it's an infinite game, or if you prefer an infinite dance. So at times, perhaps even for an entire lifetime, there are dancers in this play of human alchemy that are more like fire and other human forms that are more like water, and when they come together an arc of sexual alchemy occurs between them. It's not fire's purpose to become half water, or or water's purpose to become half fire, they each have their own natures. They need at least the principle of the other's energy for the alchemy of their destiny, but again, not to become the other or half and half, but to fully embody their own true nature

 

That is IMHO why these energies are called fire and water because obviously the two cannot truly "get along" and fully understand the other, the best we can do is enjoy the dance.

 

Sean

 

 

 

How about assertive instead of agression.

I was talking about being true to your true nature - not putting on an act to attract someone.

That is fucking around with someones head.

Especially if you are practicing self cultivation.

You're right, taoism is not to water down people but for them to express themselves. No soups.

If you are agressive be agressive and you will attract someone who likes an agression. They themselves might be agressive or submissive.

If you are a wimp there is someone out there who is attracted to wimps.

Sometimes fire and water get along because they enjoy the opposites, it excites them, sometimes they don't get along and they love this- some people love to fight and make up. They can also not form a union for the same reasons.

It's interesting, I personally wouldn't know, but they say when a person becomes realized - gets to know their inner self - they really don't change but become more of what they are ( personality wise)

They don't become bland they become a fuller expression of themselves.

[Emelgee]

It took me awhile to get this and not be offended by it. I think women (or men with a strong feminine essence) want to hold and be held by someone who is going somewhere and is going to lovingly take them with, not someone who is so distracted by their presence that they stop their purpose to make the women the entire point of their existence. That is actually a burden for women, am I right?

 

*snip!*

 

Sean

 

Hey Sean - well, sometimes my offhandedness can cause tension that I don't intend I am not always a big fan of expaining myself...a bit of impatience on my part, I suppose...

 

But the above post, along with the earlier excerpt I quoted, encapsulate exactly how I feel about relationships. I mean, different strokes for different folks, but I have generally gone out with guys who have had a love of their own freedom, which works for me because I have that same need for personal time and space. And that ties into my "love me - but don't love me too much" quip. I want to be loved, guided, respected and looked after (sometimes) but I don't want a man not doing something he really wants to do, just because of me. Love is wonderful, relationships (even when difficult) are amazing things to be a part of.

 

I also feel that it is important to have a perspective on it, too.

 

But, I am a fairly independent soul and probably the biggest thing I can learn is to accept interdependency...but, that is a WHOLE other topic!!

 

Emelgee

[neimad]

freeform....

 

beautiful.

 

 

too true, the way we act is just that... an act!

 

we are actors, we have just gotten so good at playing this particular role that we forget that we are actually just acting in one great big game.

 

we can be any personality we choose, and i have had some experimentation with that myself on breaking free and acting differently.

 

thanks for reminding me again, you gave me a lot to think about.