Women

[hajii]

What do you think of this quote:

 

Sometimes a woman will make a request of her man in plain English, not to get him to do something, but to see if he is so weak that he will do it. In other words, she is testing his capacity to do what is right, not what she is asking for. In such cases, if the man does what his woman asks, she will be disappointed and angry. The man will have no idea why she is angry or what could possibly please her. He must remember that her trust is engendered not by him fulfilling her requests, but by him magnifying love, consciousness, and success in their lives, in spite of her requests.

--- David Deida

 

Sean

 

Very interesting, the PUA stuff was good too. In my anthropology classes we talked about sociobiology, ie humans spent much more time as hunter-gatherers than as we are now, and so many of the behaviors we exhibit were developed to insure proliferation of the species in that kind of society. I think there's a lot of truth to that, and it explains a lot of stuff we do. I don't think there's any harm in seeking to understand mating behavior, and using that knowledge to one's advantage. I have a friend who's a really SNAG, and he can't understand why he doesn't have a girl.

[mYTHmAKER]

I completely agree with that... although I disagree with your other oppinion about 'being a nice guy'. The Tao is not a nice guy! watch lions having sex - it's not 'nice' but there is definately some creative tension... The tao is not comporomising, soft, sweet and caring - it can be, but it can also be the opposite. In my oppinion aligning to the tao involves freeing yourself up to be able to dance through the whole spectrum of behaviours.

 

The 'nice guy' thing for me is my comfortable place - I know that I would feel far more comfortable being 'nice' rather than 'assertive/agressive'... but I also know that this nice-guyness is not an intrinsic part of who I truly

am... it's something that has been conditioned into me over time... It's a conditioned illusion that's keeping me from having access to the full spectrum of life.

 

So it may seem that when someone has grown up to be a nice guy, and then starts 'acting' differently like he's not a nice guy, that he is not 'being himself'... that's only true if you narrow down 'the self' to your conditioned false-self.

 

So if every human interaction is a game, how do you win? well imo you win the game when you start enjoying it - and to enjoy something you need to get out of your comfort zone (whether that zone is the nice-guy zone or the assertive-guy zone)... enjoyment is caused by a tension between yin and yang... the longer the tension is kept up the more enjoyable the game becomes... just like tantric sex

 

So in conclusion - it's not about being nice or assertive... it's about ditching these very limited roles and creating playfull tension... as it so happens, to create tension you need to get out of your comfortable space... for different people it's a different space, for me it's being the nice guy, for someone else it's being obnoxious, for another person it's being assertive etc. Whatever your comforting 'persona' is, you have to lose it to enjoy yourself. I think women understand this implicitly... many like to get 'swept up' in the game, lose their inhibitions and play.

 

P.S. I know I speak for myself and probably for many others when I say that enjoying yourself (as I define it) can be fucking scary. It involves letting go of your comforting illusions... remember when you first learnt to swim? Constantly holding on to the side of the pool, maybe learning to kick and float or just standing about in the shallow end... but at one point you just had to get into the deep end and let go of the side of the pool and swim... that involves a lot of courage - but once you do, once you lose the comfort of the pool floor or edge you start truly enjoying yourself - it's not comfortable, but it is enoyable... and for me that's what the dance of interaction is all about.

 

Why do you feel bein a nice guy is a conditioned illusion that's keeping you from having access to the full spectrum of life.

I know there are some spectrums I don't want any part of.

 

One can be a nice guy and be assertive.

One can be a nice guy and enjoy the game of life

One can be a nice guy and have great sex.

One can be a nice guy and be very creative.

One can be a nice guy and have courage.

One can be a nice guy and take risks, be in an uncomfortable space etc.

Maybe you are confusing nice guys with wimps.

Being a nice guy is just the way some people are. It isn't their fault. Try to understand our limitationss.

Edited May 16, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[neimad]

i don't think that was his point.

 

it's more that all behavioural traits are conditioned responses.

 

i.e. as i said... it's all an act.

 

so it's not that there is anything wrong with being a nice guy.... but the point is, are we really a nice guy? my answer: no, thats just a conditioned response.

 

so are we really aggressive then: again... no.

 

learning about this and learning to be able to engage any 'role' you wish, appropriate to whatever circumstance you may be in is thus being able to experience the full spectrum of life and personality.... that is, to be a GREAT actor, rather than a typecast.

 

am i correct, freeform?

 

really, the only limitations we have are self imposed.

 

a great quote i recently read by a woman called catherine wilkins (i think) is "everything is true somewhere in the hologram"

even the assumed limitations that we have discovered through science may not always be true all of the time.

 

there is only infinite possibility and infinite potential. becoming aware of the infinite ability to vary our personality is just a part along the way of accessing this infinite.

 

[mYTHmAKER]

i don't think that was his point.

 

 

 

learning about this and learning to be able to engage any 'role' you wish, appropriate to whatever circumstance you may be in is thus being able to experience the full spectrum of life and personality.... that is, to be a GREAT actor, rather than a typecast.

 

am i correct, freeform?

 

really, the only limitations we have are self imposed.

 

Yes one should act appropraitely to circumstances.

Acting appropriately we can go along with somthing or not.

That is our choice.

If a woman approaches you for sex what is the appropriate response for you in this situation.

Is it appropriate for you to say ok if your married?

For me it is not - say thank you for the offer and move on.

For someone else they would think it was ok.

Their choice.

Yes limitations are self imposed.

I might type cast the person who engages in any role as an actor, perhaps fickle.

Edited May 16, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[Peregrino]

Sounds like there's a lot of quibbling over semantics. For what it's worth, etymologically speaking, it's not very nice to call someone "nice": In Middle English the word means "foolish"; it comes from the Latin "nescius," which means "ignorant."

 

I suppose you could say that in a Taoist sense it's important to be "ignorant" (or unconditioned) in the ways of socially conditioned roles, but I still can't help but think that "nice" is often a back-handed compliment.

 

Now, if by "nice guy" you mean someone who is gracious and dignified, there's no disputing the value of that; however, I think that many men who complain about being "nice guys" in some deep sense can be manipulative themselves--they hope women will someday become enlightened and return unconditional love for all the generosity, patience, forgiveness, etc. they've shown them . . . When in reality they're simply tolerating bad behavior and think it will change if they keep doing the same (unsuccessful) things . . . eventually . . . eventually . . . And in some cases (not all, of course), I do think there is lots of resentment behind the "nice guy" exterior, the sort of "gentle-voiced control freak" I've noticed in a lot of New Age circles.

 

So if you are being a "nice guy" without tolerating bad behavior in women, if you are actually challenging women to show their better selves (and you are rising to the occasion to do the same), then by all means I salute you in "being nice and being proud." However, if you're usually "complimented" for being nice but end up getting treated like a doormat, then some serious re-evaluation could be in order.

[mYTHmAKER]

yes! dont become typecast!! brilliant!

 

Myth, I think we're using 'nice guy' differently. As I say - there is no reason not to be polite, friendly and make the choices that affect you and your family in a way that is good for you.

 

What I'm really getting at is inflexibility... if as a nice guy someone squares up to you, or is blatantly rude, and you have no choice in how you handle the situation (i.e. saying 'oh I'm sorry for offending you' etc) then you're only experiencing a limited spectrum of reality.

 

 

 

 

I think we're talking about a lot of different things.

Your nice guy sounds more like a wimp.

You mentioned inflexibility - has nothing to do with being a nice person or not.

If someone is rude you act appropriately - if he's smaller than you you hit him - if he's bigger you run.

Edited May 17, 2006 by mYTHmAKER

[mYTHmAKER]

Sounds like there's a lot of quibbling over semantics. For what it's worth, etymologically speaking, it's not very nice to call someone "nice": In Middle English the word means "foolish"; it comes from the Latin "nescius," which means "ignorant."

 

I suppose you could say that in a Taoist sense it's important to be "ignorant" (or unconditioned) in the ways of socially conditioned roles, but I still can't help but think that "nice" is often a back-handed compliment.

 

Now, if by "nice guy" you mean someone who is gracious and dignified, there's no disputing the value of that; however, I think that many men who complain about being "nice guys" in some deep sense can be manipulative themselves--they hope women will someday become enlightened and return unconditional love for all the generosity, patience, forgiveness, etc. they've shown them . . . When in reality they're simply tolerating bad behavior and think it will change if they keep doing the same (unsuccessful) things . . . eventually . . . eventually . . . And in some cases (not all, of course), I do think there is lots of resentment behind the "nice guy" exterior, the sort of "gentle-voiced control freak" I've noticed in a lot of New Age circles.

 

So if you are being a "nice guy" without tolerating bad behavior in women, if you are actually challenging women to show their better selves (and you are rising to the occasion to do the same), then by all means I salute you in "being nice and being proud." However, if you're usually "complimented" for being nice but end up getting treated like a doormat, then some serious re-evaluation could be in order.

 

Nice post - it works for me.

[Peregrino]

Hmm . . . I'm trying more and more to be a "fair guy" rather than a "nice guy," though that doesn't in any way mean I shouldn't be friendly when warranted (which is in almost every case except for when people are rude from the get go, although even then it can still be effective to do "verbal jujitsu" and let them stumble over their own belligerence).

 

On the subject of balance, I will admit that, after making a firm resolution not to be a doormat, it's important to be mindful, monitor oneself so as not to go over to the "dark side" of knee-jerk cynicism and suspicion regarding people in general (or women in particular, to go back to the thread topic!).

 

Back on the subject of women, I will gladly sing paens to women of intellect I would love to dine with, such as the philosophers Martha Nussbaum and Edith Wyschogrod. But then again, if we're talking about women in THAT way (even if THAT quality is part of a multi-faceted appreciation), I will have to nominate Monica Bellucci as my current Babe-Among-Babes. Hubba hubba! She ALMOST even made that Mel Gibson movie tolerable! And her cosmic beauty only becomes MORE alluring to me with age . . .

[tumoessence]

I feel you Like when I go to clubs and see all these guys just walk up to a beautiful girl and start grabbing her ass..I guess on some level that is fun..I just have this feeling like saying hello and making_some_eye contact before I start squezing and spanking your ass.

 

But I guess most of those girls at the club are not there for realatiknships but to have some sex.

 

The whole thing just isn't very conducive to the taoist, slow sexual alchemy..that lifestlye. I think long term relationships are the way to go....even if it's with more than one woman you start to 'connect' more.

 

Plato will preobably say this is utter bullshit and no alchemy happens with woman anyway..just fucking....if you want to cultivate meditate and do good deeds..

 

And a long term sexual aprtner that supports the whole process is most conducive to that..

 

I guess that should be my goal then?(one of them atleast)

 

Cam

But nice guys finish last! Doesn't that count for something?

[neimad]

What I'm really getting at is inflexibility... if as a nice guy someone squares up to you, or is blatantly rude, and you have no choice in how you handle the situation (i.e. saying 'oh I'm sorry for offending you' etc) then you're only experiencing a limited spectrum of reality.

 

i get ya, even if others might be missing the point

 

just in the way that neimad is freeing up movement in all planes using CST, I try to use tools to free up flexibility in behaviour.

 

it's all related. CST may appear to work only with the physical... but it actually works backwards into emotional and hence thought. freeing up my movement is freeing up my emotions is freeing up my thoughts freeing up my spirituality. no, seriously it is.

the freer i become in movements, the more ability i have to express myself fully and the more fluidity i have in response to situations and the less stress arousal i suffer.

 

but then outside of CST scope i am working back the other way too.... from spiritual to thoughts to emotions to physical.

 

And this is what women require from men: potential flexibility and an ability to keep your centre in any circumstance.

 

yeah i think so.

to be safe and appropriate to the moment.

 

women are incredibly erratic and even destructive by nature..... we need to be a willow of strength (ability to take the strongest buffering of a storm and bend without breaking) as well as nurturing and supportive.

 

hah. damn you women want a lot!!

[TwoTrees]

neimad - women are incredibly erratic and even destructive by nature..... we need to be a willow of strength (ability to take the strongest buffering of a storm and bend without breaking) as well as nurturing and supportive.

 

hah. damn you women want a lot!!

That's right, neimad. And most the time, if you do this long enough . . . we are worth it, too.

Besides, I've seen this exact same thing your speaking of in reversed roles (man and woman being the at the other end of the spectrum)

 

There's plenty of women in my life that deserve great thanks for their lessons, here I'll speak of the easiest :

My spiritual teacher of early life - constantly reminding of moralities and how savage that we are without them, what's in our power of humanity, being cheerful and strong in the times of stresses, not dwelling on or worrying about what our lives will be after death, comforting me when there was no other consolation to be found, but mostly emphasized being strong; not to fear in concepts like death, poverty, slavery, illness, solitude, danger ... because it is more humiliating and unworthy than worth giving our souls to - for you cannot be prepared to conquer fear if you've not learned, read or thought for anything before in the peaceful moments of your life when things were in balance and normality. You cannot expect them to remain there eternally, but you can do your best to adapt in situations that throw you out of this balance, certainly we are innate with amazing capabilities yet unknown to our higher selves and thinking. If you give in to fear and worry in those moments, you've drawn the conclusion for absolutely nothing about the value of life and the naturalness of death and the change of universal energies. A person who is filled with fear generally cheats life, makes excuses, dodges responsibilities, etc. ... and have not prepared theirself with a strong, true spirit for death and the exciting things to come in the following centuries ...

 

My best friend passed on in early life :

[she'd been told of a terminal disease (Leukemia) at the age of 15, and passing at age 17]

Larger ones, it seems, in a special friend, a beautiful young lady with an unending smile through her tremendous pain -

something more valuable than knowledge and intelligence, more precious than wisdom and maybe even perhaps a good heart or goodness itself. A kind of tact that touched on the highest acceptance of human accomplishment, a gentleness that was more invisible, colorless yet essential - warning you what is too much and too little, what's allowed and what is going too far, and the dynamic importance of the gentleness of silence. In these times of quiet where the normal conditioned human feels boredom, you should be doing of hundreds of things to fill your thought, intent, and growth within the web of the vast universe.

There are little who can do these; pure and sincere goodness - conquering selfishness, despair, impatience, the many daemons that are mere reflections of ourselves . ..

I spoke with her nearly every night in her 1 1/2 years of life living in a hospital, and we always spoke of something different, her listening very sharp, intent, undying... her example was incredible in that she'd had incredibly intense pain inside that she always supressed, and through her tensions and worry she was giving me this shining smiling face with no harbored feelings of resentment (for my health) or anger. She showed me the kind of patience that any human should ever dream of having. It's an ability we grab hold of at the hardest of effort because the most secret instincts of our being revolt because our time is measured ... yet it is a painfully important duty in regards to our life's work, without it there is no true creation on our part. She'd told me one night when on the subject, (I was inquiring about how she held her pain in) "being patient you often become similar to the greatness of nature and the universe" ... sadly, at that age, I'd not taken the statement fully into assessment. A shame. It's connontations are simple and profound and lend tons of thoughtful insight.

Tact, gentleness, sincerety, genuinity, patience ... she'd instilled these in me with an almost subconscious manner, yet right before my eyes, I could see how they'd come to be ...

 

- M

[boyshood]

Guys you all forget to said something! Yes to say this:

 

Chinese women are the most beautiful women in the world hihihihihi

 

Take a look

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ZiuXFzEyZQ

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJYqrutTgqw...feature=related

 

 

 

 

 

Love You

Edited June 13, 2009 by Guest

[soundhunter]

Do nice guys finish last?

 

Is it up to men to tolerate or handle women's bad behavior?

 

This stuff is all irrelevant n the world of families, marriage, children, sunshine, seasons, celebrations, generations. I was a bad girl attracted to bad boys. In my experience, the young girls who played that game WERE insecure. Often when a truly good guy would come into our lives, ready to love us, we placed such low value on ourselves that we'd wonder what the hell was wrong with these good guys, if they were willing to love us so much, clearly, there was something wrong with them. In my case, and that of many of my friends from back then, we grew up, and the nice guys did win. We married them. We had babies with them. We are with them for decades. The bad boys who succeed in family life and become good fathers and decent adult men become nice guys. The bad boys who stay bad boys are not good family men, but seems many of them, once they meet the right woman and once they are ready to settle down, become nice guys. Those that don't and try to combine family life and maintain their badness, well, they fail and end up devastating their children's lives.

 

The bar scene is where my husband and I met, we both worked in the bar. He was, and still is, a very nice guy. I was a bad girl who was turned good with him. He didn't do anything but love me unconditionally while I worked through the shit that came with a horrible childhood that had toughened me up. He won. I had fun with those bad boys, but it was spiritual destruction, only by living a life where things are simple, pure, and true have I found the space to develop wisdom and pursue spiritual growth.

 

I recognize that I am only one voice in this subject, but I'm in a similar space as a few people here who are in the family season of their lives. Now there's lots of women and men in other seasons and places, there's Witch, there's nuns, there's women content to be single, there are bad girls. No mode of manliness is the right mode for all women, and in some significant areas of male-female relationships, the nice guys do win in the end. And bad boys do become nice guys too, when they have had enough of the game. I'm glad I'm with my nice guy, he's faithful, kind, a truly devoted father who speaks to his mother daily, and is the dream daddy to our two little girls and our infant son.

 

edited to add: my husband got laid a lot before marriage because he was good looking, and he was a pro BMX freestyler, these two qualities drew women to him like magnets. Being confident and fufilled in your life is the ticket to success in love, is my belief. Desperation is unnattractive in anyone, sucking up to anybody is unattractive, unrequited adoration and idolization is unnattractive in anyone. Confidence, inner power, success and a sense of fashion are attractive to almost everyone, of any gender.

Edited June 13, 2009 by soundhunter

[boyshood]

Do nice guys finish last?

 

Is it up to men to tolerate or handle women's bad behavior?

 

 

what do you mean?

[soundhunter]

[Unconditioned]

I think discomfort is the key to enjoying anything... If you're watching an MMA fight - there is tension - the fighter you're supporting could lose (there's the discomfort) but he/she could win - (that's the comfort) and during the fight you constantly go back and forth (is s/he gonna win or lose?) and the emotional tension is built up until at the end of the fight it's all released. Laughter, imo, works in the same way - when you laugh it's at the moment of the release of perceived emotional tension... watch people when they laugh and you'll find that most of the time the laughter is not because of something 'funny' but mostly because it's realeasing some kind of tension.

 

I think it completely depends on your personality. Some people 'enjoy the drama' of life, the tension, something to make them feel alive (usually more extroverted people that get their 'energy' from external interactions, activity vs. passivity). Other's enjoy the calm aspects of life, a good book, a walk through the woods, etc. ... the more introvert personality type.

 

And compatibility probably comes into play based on these personality traits. But at the end of the day it's human conditioning - procreation. There are many ways to attract a mate and the ones that have worked seem to have stuck with us. Some of us 'do our dance' of the PUA others show their sense of masculinity by being different from that group, the non-conformist type of self-confidence.

 

But there's much more to women than trying to have sex with them or to provide for them as a man. For me they embody the softer side, the deeper emotional states, the nurture of nature. And there's a masculine strength that is found there as well.

 

In my life, I was raised by a single mother who had to play the caring role and the 'make shit happen' role too. I see both sides of the coin there and I see the same in my fiance the fierceness and the calm.

 

But at the end of the day, we're all people, we're all human, we're all an aspect of life uniquely manifested and conditioned, including the natural conditioning of our gender and the psychological conditioning of our gender. And whatever keeps life going (reproduction and the sustaining of a relationship to be able to raise children) will survive and life will continue to continue.

[Guest paul walter]

The Women appreciation thread! Let's here it. Some poetry, how women have inspired you in your life. How they have pissed you off. Of course women are all as unique and different as flowers with there own characterics. For example, today I had an interaction with a mega bitch of the highest caliber immedietly followed by talking with a gorgeous, intelligent female who lifts your spirit just being around her and beautiful smile..

ps. Also..what woman have taught you about the Tao so sean doesn't move it it off topic

 

 

 

Just writing to remind people how very sick this world is, both for men and women. Read most of the posts and ask yourselves if you would really want to relate according to accepted ways if you had a 'choice' in 'your' culture. The propogation of accepted values is the mark of a helpless individual. Paul.