Taoist Philosophy - Chapter 79

[Marblehead]

Know The Ancient Beginnings

 

Hold on to the Tao of the present
To manage the things of the present,
And to know the ancient beginning.
This is called
“The beginning of the thread of the Tao.”


How Knowledge And Philosophy Corrupted The Nature Of Man

Those who rely upon the arc, the line, compasses, and the square to make correct forms injure the natural constitution of things. Those who use cords to bind and glue to piece together interfere with the natural character of things. Those who seek to satisfy the mind of man by hampering it with ceremonies and music and affecting humanity and justice have lost the original nature of man.

There is an original nature of things. Things in their original nature are curved without the help of arcs, straight without lines, round without compasses, and rectangular without squares; they are joined together without glue, and hold together without cords. In this manner all things grow with abundant life, without knowing how they do so. They all have a place in the scheme of things without knowing how they come to have their proper place. From time immemorial this has been so, and it may not be tampered with. Why then should the doctrines of humanity and justice continue to remain like so much glue and cords to give rise to confusion and doubt among mankind?

The lesser doubts change man’s purpose, and the greater doubts change man’s nature. How do we know this? Ever since the time when the rulers made a bid for humanity and justice and threw the world into confusion, men have run about and exhausted themselves in the pursuit thereof. Is it not then humanity and justice which have changed the nature of man?

People with extravagant keenness of vision put into confusion the five colors, lose themselves in the forms and designs, and in the distinctions of greens and yellows for sacrificial robes. Is this not so? People with excessive keenness of hearing put into confusion the five notes, exaggerate the tonic differences of the six pitch-pipes, and the various timbres of metal, stone, string, and bamboo. People who abnormally develop humanity, exalt character and suppress nature in order to gain a reputation, make the world noisy with their discussions and cause it to follow impractical doctrines. People who commit excess in arguments, like piling up bricks and tying knots, analyzing and inquiring into the distinctions of hard and white, identities and differences, were themselves out over vain, useless terms. All these are needless and devious growths of knowledge and are not the correct guide for the world.

He who would be the ultimate guide of the world should take care to preserve the original nature of man. Therefore, with him, the united is not like joined toes, the separated is not like extra fingers, what is long in not considered as excess, and what is short is not regarded as wanting. For duck’s legs, though short, cannot be lengthened without dismay to the duck, and a crane’s legs, though long, cannot be shortened without misery to the crane. That which is long in Nature must not be cut off, and that which is short in Nature must not be lengthened. One should not worry about changing them.

It would seem that humanity and justice were not part of the nature of man! How worried these teachers of charity are! Now the charitable men of the present age go about with a look of concern, sorrowing over the ills of the age, while the non-charitable let loose the desires of their nature in their greed for position and wealth. Therefore it would seem that humanity and justice were not a part of human nature!

Edited March 6, 2013 by Marblehead

[Brian]

...

[manitou]

I'm adding Lin Yutang's translation of Chapter 79, which is debatable whether this is the same chapter or not... Maybe this Ch. 79 doesn't match up with your translation, but the differences make for interesting conversation.

 

LXXIX. PEACE SETTLEMENTS

 

Patching up a great hatred is sure to leave some hatred behind.

How can this be regarded as satisfactory?

Therefore the Sage holds the left tally (sign of inferiority in an argument)

And does not put the guilt on the other party.

The virtuous man is for patching up;

The vicious is for fixing guilt.

But "the way of Heaven is impartial

It sides only with the good man."

 

(Discussion): I don't know if "the beginning of the thread of Tao" would equate with the way of Heaven siding only with the good man. It probably would, if projected out to its natural consequence? What is a Good Man, to the Sage? I would say this is a man who has done battle with and transcended the flames of ego; it is only without indulging ego that the Sage is capable of holding the left tally, or the inferiority in an argument. Or as the Tao would say, 'never be the first'.

 

Patching up a great hatred is sure to leave some hatred behind - therefore the Sage holds the left tally. This seems to be really about crunching our pride to the point of where it really hurts. The way of the Tao will follow naturally and bring things to an orderly conclusion, once the humility is unearthed.

[Marblehead]

Hi Manitou,

 

I'm adding Lin Yutang's translation of Chapter 79, which is debatable whether this is the same chapter or not... Maybe this Ch. 79 doesn't match up with your translation, but the differences make for interesting conversation.

 

No. My chapter numbering has nothing to do with the chapter numbering of the Tao Te Ching. The two are totally different documents even though they both speak to the same subject.

 

 

(Discussion): I don't know if "the beginning of the thread of Tao" would equate with the way of Heaven siding only with the good man. It probably would, if projected out to its natural consequence? What is a Good Man, to the Sage? I would say this is a man who has done battle with and transcended the flames of ego; it is only without indulging ego that the Sage is capable of holding the left tally, or the inferiority in an argument. Or as the Tao would say, 'never be the first'.

 

Patching up a great hatred is sure to leave some hatred behind - therefore the Sage holds the left tally. This seems to be really about crunching our pride to the point of where it really hurts. The way of the Tao will follow naturally and bring things to an orderly conclusion, once the humility is unearthed.

 

I don't think the two concepts are the same. To know the beginnings (that all is One) I think has nothing to do with "heaven siding only with the good man". Actually, I don't even accept this thought. Heaven is impartial. How can it be so and yet side with only the good man?

 

Actually, 'to know the beginning of the thread of the Tao' speaks also to all things natural. Therefore the suggestion that humanity and justice are not natural. This can be argued, of course.

[manitou]

When the Tao says it is impartial and sides only with the good man, I think what it is saying is that the 'good man' can always count on karma, if the man lives his life in an impeccable fashion. I think the straw dog concept also applies here, paradoxically, because the Tao will always find the lowest place, the most expedient answer. One who consciously places himself 'in the ravine' of the Tao will always reap the benefit ultimately.

Also, when it talks of a good man, I don't think the Tao is placing a right or wrong value on a man's worth or behavior; merely differentiating between one who is aligned with the way of the Tao and one who is not.

What a wonderful dichotomy we who are on the path get to discover; how the concept of Never Being the First, Never Too Much, and Love all merge together to form both a safe harbor and a means to an end, i.e. an enlightenment of sorts which serves to provide a sense of clarity.

[Marblehead]

When the Tao says it is impartial and sides only with the good man, I think what it is saying is that the 'good man' can always count on karma, if the man lives his life in an impeccable fashion. I think the straw dog concept also applies here, paradoxically, because the Tao will always find the lowest place, the most expedient answer. One who consciously places himself 'in the ravine' of the Tao will always reap the benefit ultimately.

Also, when it talks of a good man, I don't think the Tao is placing a right or wrong value on a man's worth or behavior; merely differentiating between one who is aligned with the way of the Tao and one who is not.

What a wonderful dichotomy we who are on the path get to discover; how the concept of Never Being the First, Never Too Much, and Love all merge together to form both a safe harbor and a means to an end, i.e. an enlightenment of sorts which serves to provide a sense of clarity.

 

Hey! What can I say? Your views are all valid, I think. Of course, I don't hold to the concept of Karma as in predestined fate but I do hold to the concept of cause and effect.

 

Yes, the lowest place is the valley; the place of rest. Associated with the feminine. This is why we are told to know the masculine but to hold to the feminine.

 

And I agree, "... if the man lives his life in an impeccable fashion.", speaks to the concept of living our life in accord with the Way of Tao or not. Wayne Wang spoke very well to this subject in his "Dynamic Tao" translation of the TTC when he spoke about those who follow the path and those who are lost.

 

Of course, moderation is key regarding the Way of Tao.

 

However, "love" is a concept that is difficult to support from the writings of Lao Tzu. I don't deny its need and I do agree that the concept is natural in some conditions but not all.

 

My initial responses were intended to insure we do not confuse Chapter 79 of the TTC with my Chapter 79 above.

[manitou]

course, moderation is key regarding the Way of Tao.

 

However, "love" is a concept that is difficult to support from the writings of Lao Tzu. I don't deny its need and I do agree that the concept is natural in some conditions but not all.

 

 

 

I'll actually go a little further than you will here. I don't think Love is difficult to support in the writings - look at The Three Treasures (chapter 57 in Lin Yutang, I don't know what it is in yours). Love is the first of the three treasures (along with never being the first and never too much). In Yutangs' translation there is a footnote next to the word Love, and it says "ts'e, tender love (associated with the mother). This type of love is akin to the agape love of Christianity. How I translate agape love is this: the daily small decisions we make in our daily lives: what do we do? When someone flips us off because we cut in front of them, do we flip them off in return? Or do we smile? These are the small myriad decisions we make every day. We can either choose the high road or the low road. When I speak of Love, it is this type of love I speak of - not a selfish action premised on getting something in return. And I think it is natural in all conditions, not some. It's either all One or it's nothing at all.

[Marblehead]

I'll actually go a little further than you will here.

 

Hehehe. Most people go further than I regarding this subject.

 

But yes, what you said is valid. It's just that the word "love" has been so misused that I try to avoid using it as much as possible. Compassion and empathy are good words for me to use.

[3bob]

Why let go of doubts if they feel safe? (rhetorically speaking)

[crispy91]

It would seem that humanity and justice were not part of the nature of man! How worried these teachers of charity are! Now the charitable men of the present age go about with a look of concern, sorrowing over the ills of the age, while the non-charitable let loose the desires of their nature in their greed for position and wealth. Therefore it would seem that humanity and justice were not a part of human nature!

Oh how I can relate to this.

 

Great post, thanks for sharing

[Marblehead]

Why let go of doubts if they feel safe? (rhetorically speaking)

 

Fair question.

 

But first I will respond with a counter question: How can one feel safe when one doubts their safety?

 

Now granted, we will never know everything. There are all those questions that just don't have a specific answer. But for those we can either make a best guess or we can simply ignore the question.

 

However, in our immidiate life surroundings, it is a good thing to feel secure and not have to concern ourself with all the "what if's" we can generate in our mind.

 

I think this is similar to my understanding of problems. There are only two categories: those I can do something about and those I can do nothing about. Those I can do something about, I take action and eliminate the problem, those I can do nothing about I either ignore or work around them.

 

Same with doubts, find the answer to the doubts we have access to the knowledge to resolve and ignore those where we have searched but found no resolution to.

 

Without doubts there will be no confusion and we can move forward anytime forward movement is called for. Or we can remain still.

 

But then, if one has attained the state where nothing matters then that one would probably never have a doubt enter their mind.

[3bob]

Fair question.

 

But first I will respond with a counter question: How can one feel safe when one doubts their safety?

 

Now granted, we will never know everything. There are all those questions that just don't have a specific answer. But for those we can either make a best guess or we can simply ignore the question.

 

However, in our immidiate life surroundings, it is a good thing to feel secure and not have to concern ourself with all the "what if's" we can generate in our mind.

 

I think this is similar to my understanding of problems. There are only two categories: those I can do something about and those I can do nothing about. Those I can do something about, I take action and eliminate the problem, those I can do nothing about I either ignore or work around them.

 

Same with doubts, find the answer to the doubts we have access to the knowledge to resolve and ignore those where we have searched but found no resolution to.

 

Without doubts there will be no confusion and we can move forward anytime forward movement is called for. Or we can remain still.

 

But then, if one has attained the state where nothing matters then that one would probably never have a doubt enter their mind.

 

Hello MH,

 

I meant in the sense of the Plato's parable of the cave... or why leave a cave of relative and known safety for an unknown and seemingly unsafe outside?

[Marblehead]

Hello MH,

 

I meant in the sense of the Plato's parable of the cave... or why leave a cave of relative and known safety for an unknown and seemingly unsafe outside?

 

Yea! We get to talk about the cave. Hehehe.

 

You are right. I paraphrase: No need to leave your house in order to see the entire world. (The processes are the same no matter where we go.)

 

Yes, Plato's two dimensional shadows were very content (or so they thought) living within their limited existence.

 

I need be careful here lest I sound like a hypocrite because I have and still do to some extent live in both these worlds that I am going to speak to.

 

The first world is the cave. We are safe and secure. We think we are experiencing life to its fullest. Nothing wrong with this. We are born, live our life, then complete the cycle. That is, the light comes on, we become a shadow, live as long as the light shines, then die when the light is removed.

 

The second world is outside the cave. We are in the unknown. We are challenged to observe life (the processes), learn from what we observe, and live our life as best we can according to these processes. We make mistakes and pay, sometimes dearly, for our mistakes. We never know for sure what we will experience around the next corner or down the next path. Sure, we have experienced many pleasures but we have also experienced many sorrows. But one day we too will pass into the unknown (complete the cycle).

 

Is there a difference? Not really. In the cave nothing matters; outside the cave everything matters. Both worlds have their beginning, their duration, and their end.

 

However, (hehehe) it is my opinion that the purpose of life is to express the Tao to our fullest capability and capacity. We cannot do this inside the cave. We need to get outside the cave and experience the fullness of Tao.

 

Now, in my old age, I have returned to the cave. But I have been out there!

[3bob]

Yea! We get to talk about the cave. Hehehe.

 

You are right. I paraphrase: No need to leave your house in order to see the entire world. (The processes are the same no matter where we go.)

 

Yes, Plato's two dimensional shadows were very content (or so they thought) living within their limited existence.

 

I need be careful here lest I sound like a hypocrite because I have and still do to some extent live in both these worlds that I am going to speak to.

 

The first world is the cave. We are safe and secure. We think we are experiencing life to its fullest. Nothing wrong with this. We are born, live our life, then complete the cycle. That is, the light comes on, we become a shadow, live as long as the light shines, then die when the light is removed.

 

The second world is outside the cave. We are in the unknown. We are challenged to observe life (the processes), learn from what we observe, and live our life as best we can according to these processes. We make mistakes and pay, sometimes dearly, for our mistakes. We never know for sure what we will experience around the next corner or down the next path. Sure, we have experienced many pleasures but we have also experienced many sorrows. But one day we too will pass into the unknown (complete the cycle).

 

Is there a difference? Not really. In the cave nothing matters; outside the cave everything matters. Both worlds have their beginning, their duration, and their end.

 

However, (hehehe) it is my opinion that the purpose of life is to express the Tao to our fullest capability and capacity. We cannot do this inside the cave. We need to get outside the cave and experience the fullness of Tao.

 

Now, in my old age, I have returned to the cave. But I have been out there!

 

MH,

I can relate to a lot of what you are saying above. I'm not exactly young, having two daughters in their mid-twenties and I got married late. Spending so much of my time making a living (and everything that goes with maintaining a middle class standard of living) feels like it has half killed me at times... but that is pretty much how a high percentage (billions) of the worlds population gets by in this day and age and many without reaching middle class finaces related to decent homes, health care, food on the table, putting the kids through college, and at least some ability to enjoy retirement in old age, etc..

 

None-the-less, the time-less-ness of enlightenment/love is not over-rated for it is the only thing that makes lasting sense along with making the grind and or the "good fight" worth it to me.

 

Good day,

 

Om

[dawei]

Actually, I don't even accept this thought. Heaven is impartial. How can it be so and yet side with only the good man?

 

Actually, 'to know the beginning of the thread of the Tao' speaks also to all things natural. Therefore the suggestion that humanity and justice are not natural. This can be argued, of course.

 

However, "love" is a concept that is difficult to support from the writings of Lao Tzu.

Hi MH. I tend to agree with many of your assessments. And partly because the oldest manuscript, the Guodian Lao Zi does not have many of the chapters that are often used to present the counter-points mentioned here.

 

Chapter 79 is not in the Guodian; "The way of heaven [Tian Dao] is said to side with the good man [shan ren]?"

Tian Dao never exists in the Guodian; Shan only exists 3 times and never in relation to man [ren].

 

I am not sure what is Lin Yutang Chapter 57 but that is not the DDJ chapter for the three treasures; that is DDJ Chapter 67, which is also not in the Guodian.

 

if one takes a very serious comparative look at the Guodian to the received version written by Wang Bi (lest we forget he is a Confucian who did not hold Lao Zi in as high esteem as previous commentators), I think your positions are more strongly founded.

 

I like Lin Yutang and have his commentary and use his website to research words.

[Marblehead]

None-the-less, the time-less-ness of enlightenment/love is not over-rated for it is the only thing that makes lasting sense along with making the grind and or the "good fight" worth it to me.

 

Good day,

 

Om

 

Yeah, I know what you mean. I was wondering about myself there for a while but I managed to pull things together so that I can enjoy my retirement.

 

I really don't talk about love all that much (except in the "love" thread). I am more into compassion and empathy.

 

Good day to you and yours as well.

[3bob]

Thanks the feedback MH. ;-)

 

[Marblehead]

Thanks the feedback MH. ;-)

 

 

Any time Bob.

 

You did know that I love (ooops, I used that four letter word)to talk about Taoist Philosophy, didn't you? Hehehe.

[manitou]

 

I really don't talk about love all that much (except in the "love" thread). I am more into compassion and empathy.

 

 

 

I'm not sure I see a difference between Love and compassion and empathy.

[Stigweard]

[Marblehead]

I'm not sure I see a difference between Love and compassion and empathy.

 

Hehehe. Nice observation.

 

The word "love" all too often connotes sexual concepts. And this all too often connotes physical self-satisfaction and control of another. All these ar inward flowing.

 

Compassion and empathy, on the other hand, connote nothing of the sort. Both are outward flowing with the other as the point of interest.

[Marblehead]

[manitou]

 

I personally think that the dispassionate aspect refers more to non-attachment. That is, we can express motherly love, kindness and compassion without being attached to the object of these traits but still remain unattached, as in they are a direct extension of ourself.

 

(

 

I couldn't agree more. I find that the more I've internalized the Tao over the years, the more dispassionate I become. My capacity for motherly love (or agape love, or unconditional love) has increased for everything, but my attachment to outcomes is becoming less and less.

[Marblehead]

I couldn't agree more. I find that the more I've internalized the Tao over the years, the more dispassionate I become. My capacity for motherly love (or agape love, or unconditional love) has increased for everything, but my attachment to outcomes is becoming less and less.

 

Hehehe. You keep talking like that and I am going to start calling you one of my soul sisters.

 

It is a very difficult path to begin - that of doing what needs be done and remaining unattached to the outcome. But I suggest that once we have begun that journey in truth and honesty there will be no turning back.

[3bob]

Hehehe. Nice observation.

 

The word "love" all too often connotes sexual concepts. And this all too often connotes physical self-satisfaction and control of another. All these ar inward flowing.

 

Compassion and empathy, on the other hand, connote nothing of the sort. Both are outward flowing with the other as the point of interest.

 

(spinning off your post)

 

"...are outward flowing..." MH

 

YES, and further yet when that force (with compassion and its sisters being closely related aspects of same) does not waver or weaken in flow in a Being who maintains (or effectively is) in deep connection with the Source of same - then:

 

"...there is no room for Death in him" LT

(and I'd add not just philosophically but also litterally)

 

Chapter 50 "...It is said that he who knows well how to live meets

no tigers or wild buffaloes on his road, and comes out

from the battle-ground untouched by the weapons of

war. For, in him, a buffalo would find no butt for his

horns, a tiger nothing to lay his claws upon, and a

weapon of war no place to admit its point. How is this?

Because there is no room for Death in him".

 

Eureka!

 

Om

Edited November 4, 2010 by 3bob