Stillness movement & Water method for psyche healing

[Jetsun]

Hi, a while back I asked about comparison between the Stillness Movement and Water Methods and would like to get some opinions about these methods from experienced people if possible. Without trying to go into too much personal detail I have been searching for methods to help with mental health for many years and have experimented with many different things and methods, recently I have been using the standing outer Water Method after reading a post on this forum about how someone recovered form severe mental illness using this method.

 

I think I have a decent understanding of the Water Method now, I liked and agreed with a lot of the theory about the importance of moving your energy down into the ground to ground you and the importance of letting go, as it appears to me the method is to try to get your body to go "hung" or fully relaxed releasing any tensions with the mind as you move down the body, there doesn't seem to be any cultivation rather more opening and letting go. I have had some success with this but as I encounter some difficult areas in my body I sometimes get a contraction afterwards which exacerbates my psychological problems and it appears some parts of my energy view this (and probably any form of healing) as a threat. It appears there are large parts of my body which don't want to let go, which are infact holding on for dear life and im not sure how to deal with them or convince them it's safe, even when I generate metta and use the lightest attention/intention on these areas they don't like it and contract often filling my body with what feels like ice cold energy. Perhaps this method makes me too yin as I am quite yin anyway and dealing with a lot of repressed fear and weakness.

 

I was wondering how the Stillness Movement approaches healing especially psychological elements like I have described? I understand it's a more spontaneous form of Qigong and is more about cultivating Qi but is there great intent involved or manipulation involved? any sort of information about it is most appreciated, especially if there is an approach involved which could help heal areas which don't want to be healed (if that makes any sense ) Is there often an exacerbation of psychological symptoms before resolving them when using this method? is this even a method which works in this area or is is more of a physical healing method?

 

Any advice or help of any sort is most appreciated

Jetsun

[Birch]

"heal areas which don't want to be healed (if that makes any sense )"

 

- Absolutely it does, especially if there is "secondary gain" to be gotten by retaining them. Secondary gain could be identity, attention, a sense of strength from the ongoing combat...I'm only saying the ones I've dealt with/am dealing with.

 

"Is there often an exacerbation of psychological symptoms before resolving them when using this method?"

 

- I can't talk to water method or SM but read this http://www.shaktitechnology.com/enlightenment.htm

[Ya Mu]

Hi, a while back I asked about comparison between the Stillness Movement and Water Methods and would like to get some opinions about these methods from experienced people if possible. Without trying to go into too much personal detail I have been searching for methods to help with mental health for many years and have experimented with many different things and methods, recently I have been using the standing outer Water Method after reading a post on this forum about how someone recovered form severe mental illness using this method.

 

I think I have a decent understanding of the Water Method now, I liked and agreed with a lot of the theory about the importance of moving your energy down into the ground to ground you and the importance of letting go, as it appears to me the method is to try to get your body to go "hung" or fully relaxed releasing any tensions with the mind as you move down the body, there doesn't seem to be any cultivation rather more opening and letting go. I have had some success with this but as I encounter some difficult areas in my body I sometimes get a contraction afterwards which exacerbates my psychological problems and it appears some parts of my energy view this (and probably any form of healing) as a threat. It appears there are large parts of my body which don't want to let go, which are infact holding on for dear life and im not sure how to deal with them or convince them it's safe, even when I generate metta and use the lightest attention/intention on these areas they don't like it and contract often filling my body with what feels like ice cold energy. Perhaps this method makes me too yin as I am quite yin anyway and dealing with a lot of repressed fear and weakness.

 

I was wondering how the Stillness Movement approaches healing especially psychological elements like I have described? I understand it's a more spontaneous form of Qigong and is more about cultivating Qi but is there great intent involved or manipulation involved? any sort of information about it is most appreciated, especially if there is an approach involved which could help heal areas which don't want to be healed (if that makes any sense ) Is there often an exacerbation of psychological symptoms before resolving them when using this method? is this even a method which works in this area or is is more of a physical healing method?

 

Any advice or help of any sort is most appreciated

Jetsun

One thing to think about: There are no absolutes.

 

I thought you received some pretty good answers in the other thread; but you now explain more of your situation. Mt view is that no one that is under psychiatric care or with intense psychological problems should take it upon themselves to practice powerful internal energetic methods. ONLY with concordance with your physician and your constant contact Teacher. In other words, find a Teacher, consult with your doctor. Teacher should be local and accessible to you and preferably be medical qigong certified.

 

I think movement methods are more likely to be harmonious and helpful for initial qigong training.

 

All that said, I have seen amazing results with people that practice Stillness-Movement qigong who have mild to moderate situational depression, low energy, low self esteem, mild to moderate pain from old injuries, and other non-medically oriented symptoms.

[Jetsun]

"heal areas which don't want to be healed (if that makes any sense )"

 

- Absolutely it does, especially if there is "secondary gain" to be gotten by retaining them. Secondary gain could be identity, attention, a sense of strength from the ongoing combat...I'm only saying the ones I've dealt with/am dealing with.

 

"Is there often an exacerbation of psychological symptoms before resolving them when using this method?"

 

- I can't talk to water method or SM but read this http://www.shaktitechnology.com/enlightenment.htm

 

Yeah secondary gain, that's the problem as even though these things are absorbing most of my life force and vastly reducing my quality of life I still don't want to let them go for whatever reason.

 

Interesting website, it reminded me of a woman called Jill Taylor who wrote a book about experiencing Nirvana and oneness like states while having a stroke and had to exist for a short time almost only in the right side of her brain.

 

One thing to think about: There are no absolutes.

 

I thought you received some pretty good answers in the other thread; but you now explain more of your situation. Mt view is that no one that is under psychiatric care or with intense psychological problems should take it upon themselves to practice powerful internal energetic methods. ONLY with concordance with your physician and your constant contact Teacher. In other words, find a Teacher, consult with your doctor. Teacher should be local and accessible to you and preferably be medical qigong certified.

 

I think movement methods are more likely to be harmonious and helpful for initial qigong training.

 

All that said, I have seen amazing results with people that practice Stillness-Movement qigong who have mild to moderate situational depression, low energy, low self esteem, mild to moderate pain from old injuries, and other non-medically oriented symptoms.

 

Unfortunately there are not many Qigong teachers near where I live; there is one guy who I went to see some time ago who taught an outer form of Qigong but I didn't feel it helped much except surface level relaxation, I have learned a lot of movement methods over the years though but I never felt they went deep enough to make any significant change to my state. But then the deeper methods like the Water Method seem to exacerbate my symptoms which is very difficult as I have to go to work every day to earn a living and try to interact with other people and also it is hard to tell if they are actually helping or just making me feel worse by stirring up energies without resolving them.

 

I have ordered the Stillness Movement book and dvd so I will be able to test if anything from them will help this sort of situation although I understand it is not really intended to be totally learned from books and dvd so it is not a reliable test, but I can report how I get on with them.

Thanks for your replies.

[Ya Mu]

Yeah secondary gain, that's the problem as even though these things are absorbing most of my life force and vastly reducing my quality of life I still don't want to let them go for whatever reason.

 

Interesting website, it reminded me of a woman called Jill Taylor who wrote a book about experiencing Nirvana and oneness like states while having a stroke and had to exist for a short time almost only in the right side of her brain.

 

 

 

Unfortunately there are not many Qigong teachers near where I live; there is one guy who I went to see some time ago who taught an outer form of Qigong but I didn't feel it helped much except surface level relaxation, I have learned a lot of movement methods over the years though but I never felt they went deep enough to make any significant change to my state. But then the deeper methods like the Water Method seem to exacerbate my symptoms which is very difficult as I have to go to work every day to earn a living and try to interact with other people and also it is hard to tell if they are actually helping or just making me feel worse by stirring up energies without resolving them.

 

I have ordered the Stillness Movement book and dvd so I will be able to test if anything from them will help this sort of situation although I understand it is not really intended to be totally learned from books and dvd so it is not a reliable test, but I can report how I get on with them.

Thanks for your replies.

I would suggest for most people to stick with the Gift of the Tao initially, if they can't attend workshops. Unlike some of the other movements out there it is a very energetic system but you still get the balancing of the movements themselves.

[Spectrum]

"parts of my body which don't want to let go, which are infact holding on for dear life and im not sure how to deal with them or convince them it's safe"

 

what's the most relaxing thing you've done recently?

[Jetsun]

"parts of my body which don't want to let go, which are infact holding on for dear life and im not sure how to deal with them or convince them it's safe"

 

what's the most relaxing thing you've done recently?

 

I have been doing standing Water Method meditation and done a bit of more regular Buddhist meditation, but I find the most relaxing is just to sit doing nothing and allow whatever is there to exist, the problem is that usually results in me falling asleep. Is there anything you recommend?

[寒月 Hanyue]

I have been doing standing Water Method meditation and done a bit of more regular Buddhist meditation, but I find the most relaxing is just to sit doing nothing and allow whatever is there to exist, the problem is that usually results in me falling asleep. Is there anything you recommend?

 

Hi, Thanks for starting this thread.

 

Michael's advice is gold, please listen to him. A teacher is worth it, sometimes you cannot find one straight away. Practice on you own, but slowly and stick to yin methods, things can have a way of working out.

 

I am no spokesman for Bruce, so please take all I say as only my understanding.

 

The Water Method was the best thing I found to help with my chronic pain, and certain emotional/mental aspects tied to it. That is for me, and for the things I have experienced/am experiencing. It does not mean it IS the best or that there is not better. To be clear my transmission has primarily been in "jinggong"* or somatics, I have not plumbed the depths of the higher qi aspects of the Water Method.

 

The 70% rule is something that even Bruce often does not stick to when teaching and many of his students follow his example and not what he says. It depends on WHO you are ARE. It sounds to me as though you want to adhere to the 70% rule, this can be hard in and of itself.

 

Bruce was empowered to teach the health and healing aspects of the Water method to as many people as possible, his methodology is systematic and safe if followed with all things considered and listening to yourself. The 70% rule means that you do not want to strain yourself physically or emotionally or mentally. When you find resistance you do not want to embed it further.

 

Some things like stillness and relaxation to release, some things like movement, most things like both in some capacity.

 

The Water method will most certainly show you what is wrong, where you are blocked. This is not always comfortable. My teacher reminds us it is not the neigong that is making us feel sore,stiff, angry, etc it is showing us where we are holding these things. TO be able to let go of them you need to be aware of them, and then to accept where you are now, what is happening now. For change to occur this has to be accepted or surrendered to. Only then can our system begin to release and change.

 

This presence, or mindfulness, is not easy. Try to find the stillness within yourself that lies behind the movement/activity. Pay attention to the energy behind the shape of the blockage, whether it is physical or emotional or both. Keep your awareness on it and allow it to dissolve, accept it and let it go. Keep to the 70% rule. The blockage will either tend to want to expand and release outwards or implode inwards, allow it to do what it wants, you should be left with a clearer sense of space. And maintain a sense of your qi falling or dropping downwards to help clear things out.

 

You can practice dissolving standing or sitting or even lying down. It is generally considered easier to get still before moving. The body is like a Chinese puzzle box, do not focus on the bit you 'want' to release or 'think' you should be releasing. If the right bit is not open, then the next bit will not open either regardless of what you do. You have to learn to scan through and release what you can but to allow and surrender to the bodies natural processes too. It will open and release what needs to be done first.

 

Assume your preferred position and once settled, try to feel the whole body as one, just get a sense of the whole of yourself. Make no judgements just feel. Observe the feeling, relax and pay more attention to the subtle sensations, as a whole do you feel expansion? contraction? spiralling? are any emotions related/connected? allow whatever to be, observe it, examine it, but do not try to understand or make sense of it. Just be. Keep part of your awareness on the whole, and use part to do a scan of your qi from above your head to below your feet. Make no attempt to change anything, just slowly scan through feeling what you find. Do this gently like stroking a cat, it should be pleasant. Then just sit in stillness and be relaxed and observe. If you have a strong reaction in any place then simply do less, do what is easy to start with. The dissolving is a natural process that we do to clear things out, we just forget it. To bring things fully into our awareness is how we can kick start the dissolving, but presence and awareness needs to be there first.

 

To clarify. If your body wants to move when practicing the dissolving methods let it. If it needs to move to open and release then allow this. Sometimes it just moves and then stays in an odd position, then rights itself again. Let it do so. It took me a long time to realise this was not 'wrong', Bruce does not directly teach a spontaneous practice, though he does discuss it and it is a part of the water method, it is just seen as a process that can occur during practice.

 

I have had all kinds of things come out from the water method practice, spontaneous movements throwing me off the zafu, strong emotions such as laughing fits I can't stop, a lot of anger and fear and sadness,as well as spontaneous soul retrievals. If strong emotions come up try to allow them to come through you without attaching to them again. This can continue the pattern and release them but if you pander to them you can reinforce that pattern. No its not easy. It has also at times led to severe frustration, as the increased awareness of problems runs 24/7. Having loving support, supportive friends and a teacher can be a godsend.

 

The fact you have found simply sitting and forgetting helpful is interesting. The dissolving methods are a process designed to help clear out the different layers of your being to enable the proper practice of zuo wang (sitting and forgetting). Becoming tired is common, so is falling asleep. Two things, one build more energy, two develop your ability to remain focused. Breathing methods are normally best.

 

Hope some of that helps in some way

 

Best,

 

 

 

*Water method neigong consists of jing(essence/body)gong, Qi(energy)gong, shen(spirit)gong. Where it should be noted that jing is understood to also refer to the qi acupuncture works with, whereas the 'Qi' of Qigong is chengqi ("real qi") which some view as similar if not the same as kundalini-shakti

[Jetsun]

Thanks for your reply snowmonki, it has helped clarify quite a few things for me. One of the issues I was having was how to use the intention to dissolve, as the instructions involve having an intention to let go of the block when you encounter it, but then having an intention for something to change appears to be contrary to just accepting something and witnessing it which seems to be the gentler method. So I guess the problem with me is that having the intention to change something can get caught up in non acceptance and more aggressive sorts of intentions towards myself.

 

Generally I have found BK Frantzis information about Water Method dissolving very good, especially the CD set where he talks about a lot of things hardly anyone else seems to be talking about such as resolving pre verbal traumas, problems with spacing out dissociation and womb impressions, it was a relief to find his work as he was talking about healing on a very important level many other people just seem to skip and ignore.

[寒月 Hanyue]

Thanks for your reply snowmonki, it has helped clarify quite a few things for me. One of the issues I was having was how to use the intention to dissolve, as the instructions involve having an intention to let go of the block when you encounter it, but then having an intention for something to change appears to be contrary to just accepting something and witnessing it which seems to be the gentler method. So I guess the problem with me is that having the intention to change something can get caught up in non acceptance and more aggressive sorts of intentions towards myself.

 

Generally I have found BK Frantzis information about Water Method dissolving very good, especially the CD set where he talks about a lot of things hardly anyone else seems to be talking about such as resolving pre verbal traumas, problems with spacing out dissociation and womb impressions, it was a relief to find his work as he was talking about healing on a very important level many other people just seem to skip and ignore.

 

Glad to help. If you have any specific questions ask them, and I will if able to, respond. I will not respond or give answers to things I can't. It's probably easier than me rabbiting on. Of course then anyone else can help and give their 2 cents too.

 

I struggled with dissolving for ages. I was used to certain 'relaxation' techniques and body scanning and kinda approached it like that to begin with. I think someone asked in another thread about this, dissolving is something else.

 

This is my view. The dissolving process is a natural process, but like many other natural processes it gets stuck and we get in the way of it. If you read about zuo wang (sitting and forgetting), which many consider a cornerstone of Daoist meditation, you will find people describing dissolving. Bruce explains that going straight for this is not easy, the tradition he passes on is designed to help you rediscover that process and slowly clear out the different layers of your being (the 8 energy bodies). The outer dissolving is, strictly speaking qigong. The inner dissolving is, according to Bruce, jing zuo (sitting in stillness) meditation. Jing zuo leads to zuo wang. So it is a way to go from the gross to the very subtle and slowly clear out each layer. As such is can become very 'method' or 'technique' but dissolving is just dissolving really, and will happen to anyone who practices Daoist meditation properly*.

 

So I have stopped looking at the dissolving process as a technique or method to dissolve things. It is more a process to discover and allow to happen. In fact when I have had a 'happy accident' this is exactly what has happened and it has been a much clearer and deeper experience.

 

The intention when finding blockages should be like the sun melting an ice cube, no effort, it is just there present and steady and the ice melts. This is why Bruce teaches the stages he does, to help you develop the concentration and attention and presence required, which are not easy. You should not try to dissvolve the blockages, at least this is how I was taught.

 

Yes trying to dissolve them can lead to frustration and a downward spiral. I have been there, and still go through that on occasion myself. You may have marked out on the map where you want go/be, but if you do not genuinely know where you are NOW, how can you move in the right direction? Yes you can move (effort) and travel (practice) but how much is wasted? Or you may be lucky and move in the right direction

 

Start with awareness and presence allow your qi to sink and to feel the downward flow and as you keep your attention on blockages you should find that they begin to release, the body will let go and unwind, and so on.

 

* Same as spontaneous releases, pulsing and many other aspects of neigong which can become methods taught specifically.

 

 

Hi Jetsun,

 

Glad to see you considering these two paths.

 

When I was ready to begin chi gung/IMA, I found Water Method practices, with in person teachers, to be right for me. It was slow and body-based. Getting to know my own body and feel the fluids and pulses inside of me was a new way to experience myself. I enjoyed and benefited from W.M. practices very much.

 

When I was ready for a spiritual practice that incorporated chi gung, I found Stillness-Movement. It quickly opened me wide and connected me readily to Source, which wasn't present in my W.M. teachings. And dissolvings with no work! No pain! No ice-to-water imagery...no imagery at all.

 

When I was ready for Water Method, I did not know of Stillness-Movement. But if I had, would I have been ready for Stillness-Movement at that time? I think not.

 

In the end, FOR ME: I suspect if I had continued with W.M., I would have found a spiritual connection. With S-M, it only took me a few weeks to be solidly, spiritually, energetically connected to the Tao.

 

In the end, FOR YOU: I encourage you to listen to Ya Mu. If you have some concerns that are more than minor depression or minor anxiety, that you start with something less energizing. Working with a decent IMA teacher in your area is often your best bet.

 

Very interesting. I can relate to this,a lot. I was brought to my Water method teacher, and I have slowly been fixing my body. I put aside all my other energy work and meditation, and I have found that the heavy emphasis on body during the beginning practices has been slow going getting back to and re-integrating 'energy' work. Though Bruce did say recently that qigong is moving energy in your body, not moving your body about. Now I am lucky enough to have had Ya Mu's teachings brought into my life, I can't wait for January

 

Though a query, imagery? in the Water method? really, is that how you were taught? I was always taught that Ice to water to gas/space isn't a visualisation or an imagery to be used during dissolving. It's just something to help people intellectually grasp the concept. I personally think it probably doesn't actually help as people get hung up on it. Would love to hear more from you

 

 

Best,

[Creation]

I struggled with dissolving for ages. I was used to certain 'relaxation' techniques and body scanning and kinda approached it like that to begin with. I think someone asked in another thread about this, dissolving is something else.

Hi snowmonki.

 

Thank you for giving such clear and detailed expositions of your understanding/experience with the water method.

 

I was wondering, seeing as I was the one who "asked in another thread about this", would you please elaborate on the relation of dissolving to "'relaxation' techniques"? How do you approach the two differently?

 

The particular methodologies are clearly different, although they both employ body scanning. But as I have continued to play around with dissolving, I came to the tenative conclusion dissolving (not the particular practice of dissolving, but the goal of said practice) and relaxation are in fact the same thing, but on different levels, that is, the dissolving of a blockage in your energy body is precisely the energy body analogy of the relaxing of tension in your physical body. Would you say that this is incorrect?

 

Thanks.

[Jetsun]

Speaking of dissolving...I mentioned in a separate S-M thread about staying in an s-m state for the past 2.5 days (for the most part). This morning upon waking up, I notice that my organs were completely dissolved and my breathing big and circular.

 

That sounds great, I would love to get back to a state where my body and breathing is as relaxed as a child again. I wonder if that is even possible in a sexually charged "responsible" adult?

 

I don't think the Water Method is about visualizations at all, the block in your body is described as ice only because that is how it is felt physically, and then it can be melted by presence of your consciousness which then turns it into water, what I think is meant by water is that once it is melted all the information and emotion which was contained in the block is freed and can enter the mindstream which feels like a flow of water, then the information/emotion can be let go into space for good like water turning into gas, or if you are unfortunate the water can turn back into ice and the block isn't resolved.

 

I have tried doing this dissolving today using the much gentler method snowmonki recommended of just using presence without much intent and it felt better to me, it feels like the saying "less is more" is relevant, so the gentler you are the more powerful it is. Perhaps I just needed more faith in the dissolving to occur without my active participation, so I might start to worship the dissolving God whoever that is.

 

Just wondering do you guys see any conflict or bad consequence of doing the Water Method and Gift of the Tao during the same day? Or if I should only do one which would you personally recommend for healing?

Edited November 2, 2010 by Jetsun

[寒月 Hanyue]

[寒月 Hanyue]

Yes, I remember the early days. Experiencing the delight of the downward flow. The energy leaving through the ends of my feet. Letting out the ends of the hands and head. The beginning of a path...

 

 

Seems that I did get caught up in the words. A naturally visual person, I either I visualized an image of ice melting. Or resisted the words because it literally made me feel cold. Disrupted my dissolving efforts. When alone, I was OK. In class, being led by the teachers who spoke Frantzis' language during dissolving sessions: less progress.

 

I trust you will dissolve your pants off in January...

 

Ah that makes sense. I struggle with visualsations not just being my head, I have found the feeling-awareness approach much better for me. It seems different people find one works better for them. Though I am finding that certain images now come through and they can then help recreate the feeling, but being given one from someone else rarely helps.

 

I hope so, but maybe not without clothes in January here in the UK Brrr

[寒月 Hanyue]

so I might start to worship the dissolving God whoever that is.

 

Odin

 

I know that I hung on a windy tree

nine long nights,

wounded with a spear, dedicated to Odin,

myself to myself,

on that tree of which no man knows

from where its roots run.

 

No bread did they give me nor a drink from a horn,

downwards I peered;

I took up the runes, screaming I took them,

then I fell back from there.[6]

Just wondering do you guys see any conflict or bad consequence of doing the Water Method and Gift of the Tao during the same day? Or if I should only do one which would you personally recommend for healing?

 

Haven't learned Gift of the Tao, so can't comment.

[The Way Is Virtue]

Edited November 3, 2010 by The Way Is Virtue

[Ya Mu]

...

Just wondering do you guys see any conflict or bad consequence of doing the Water Method and Gift of the Tao during the same day? Or if I should only do one which would you personally recommend for healing?

Gift of the Tao is as much "water method" as it is "fire method" as it is "wind method" as it is "earth method" as it is "heavenly method". It is all of them depending on the circumstances, intent, how fast it is done, environment, WHO YOU ARE, your particular needs, etc. IMO there is no pure water method nor pure fire method and you seldom ever see me using these marketing terms. When I do Gift of Tao it can be fiery as the depths of hell, smooth as the gentlest streams, Light as the Highest Heavenly levels, Cool as the Mountains, Earthy as the holes Shamen travel through, inter-dimensional as...

 

In your case I would suggest rebounding as the ideal starting point followed by walking and even running, and squats with light weights. Follow your heart. Do what works for you. Really, rebounding is the one single thing that usually helps anyone who does it.