The Way of the Warrior

[TzuJanLi]

You seem upset?! And still denying me my freedom? That is what I was saying is Fascist.

 

If you reread my post you will see that did not say you used the word Fascist. Really, look for quote marks. Any there?

 

What I did point out however was the obvious fascistic undertones to your perspective.

 

You Believe you are American and stand for Freedom while simultaneously trying to rob me of my rights to freedom and free speech.

 

Naughty naughty, and Very Very Un American! The Founders would be appalled!

 

Peace Bro!

Denying you your freedom? nope, i'm stating my understanding of America, and my understanding of your misunderstanding..

 

I did not say or imply that you said i used the term fascist, what is clear is that you introduced the term to inflame the disagreement, as you say, "to bait", but.. you don't have to bait me, i'll speak of behalf of freedom, Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness without provocation or inspiration, it just seems so 'Taoist'..

 

Fascist undertones? You speculate for effect about that which you have no valid knowledge..

 

I do stand for America and the rights of freedom, and free speech.. and, i wish all the people that enjoy those rights would support the fundamental philosophy of America that guarantees those rights, and respect the lives lost paying the price..

 

So, if you're living in the United States, using a computer, feeling thrill of speaking openly anti-American rhetoric.. take a moment to grasp just how hypocritical that is..

 

Be well..

[Brian]

...

[Aetherous]

So, if you're living in the United States, using a computer, feeling thrill of speaking openly anti-American rhetoric.. take a moment to grasp just how hypocritical that is..

 

I think "anti-American rhetoric" is often just criticism...which can be taken constructively if you so choose!

 

The ones who are actually destroying the ideal of America happen to be the majority of the American politicians and leaders, as well as the sheeple that mindlessly vote them in.

[TzuJanLi]

I think "anti-American rhetoric" is often just criticism...which can be taken constructively if you so choose!

 

The ones who are actually destroying the ideal of America happen to be the majority of the American politicians and leaders, as well as the sheeple that mindlessly vote them in.

Agreed.. but, understanding the difference between the principles and the abuse of those principles is critical to reasoned discussion.. and, to be clear, generalizing about men and women of the military, especially those the died, is inappropriate.. i watched many good anti-war draftees get wounded or lose their lives in Southeast Asia (it wasn't confined to Vietnam).. know the facts and present them clearly, and we will have a good discussion..

 

Be well..

[3bob]

I wholeheartedly agree.

 

Talk to us more about why you said "all [of] which can be warriors in their own way"

 

How so?

 

What is your definition of a warrior?

 

How can one invoke that energy, that mindset in every day living?

 

Can you share with us the clearest remembrance you have of a time when you felt you acted in a manner befitting a 'true' warrior?

 

I see this thread devolving into a petty, trivial debate about the state of geopolitics and American foreign policy. Let's bring the focus back to the path of the warrior in today's age.

 

Answers will be attracted to and gather in response to burning questions.

 

(thus sayings along the lines of, "the right question is half the answer".)

 

"How can one invoke that energy, that mindset in every day living?"

 

A particular form or being may be invoked but the life-force itself needs no invoking; for example the air we breathe needs no invoking per-se. (with the life-force being quintessentially more important and of greater need than even air)

 

Many mixed voices roar for attention... yet the one still, small and vital voice when heard speaks louder and truer than all of them. Listen and respond, for she guides you with the power, goodness and truth of the life force, for without that any warrior will miss the mark.

 

Om

[Stigweard]

In my mind at least, I draw a distinction between a fighter or soldier and a Warrior. Though being a fighter or soldier can certainly be a pathway to becoming a Warrior, they certainly aren't the only pathways.

 

To me the true Warrior has only one concern ... freedom. And they will struggle until their dying breath for it's attainment.

 

But freedom for what and from what?

 

A Warrior's life is an incessant battle for self-sovereignty, self-independence, and the freedom of awareness. They fight for the freedom to stand as the being of their own choosing and to view the world with an unfettered awareness. They fight for the freedom of being a whole being; to fulfill the absolute potential of the human experience and engage the entire spectrum of possible human awareness.

 

And in that battle they have only one real adversary: the snares, chains and locked cages of social conditioning. The parental voices, the manipulations of siblings and friends, the contrivances of teachers and those who assume authority, and the mind-numbing intestinal gurgling of the very culture in which we live. All of these forces weave a harpy-song of "false self" around us; an illusion that distorts and separates us from who we are, making us believe these thoughts are our own, that they are who we are, and forces us to subscribe to a false view the world.

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Seth,

 

Nice post. I will speak to the two items below.

 

 

 

I will totally disagree mainly because I am an exception to this suggestion. If I am then it can be true for anyone else.

 

I had my most spiritual experience while serving in the war in Vietnam. Spirituality is internal, totally absent of all external forces and influences.

 

I have never murdered an oppressed person. If I did ever kill anyone (I will not say if I have or have not) it was because I understood that they would kill me if I did not take action.

 

 

 

Well, I am against much of my nations' foreign policy too. I thought that the Vietnam War was totally unnecessary. I thought the wars in Iraq were totally unnecessary.

 

The war in Afghanistan is a different story. We (the US) are there as part of the UN forces trying to distroy terrorist networks. At least, that was the original purpose and still is an underlying purpose.

 

Regretfully, the US is becoming, or already is, a Fascist state, and our foreign policies are being controlled by the powerful and wealthy of the United States. We, the people, have little to say regarding how our government operates anymore.

 

But I still love my country because the philosophy that is the base of our constitution is just as valid today as it was 250 years ago.

Thanks Marblehead

I guess in some ways I kind of agree with you here but too discuss it properly with you I feel we need to be clear about the terms we use... like the word 'spiritual'.

 

I think many soldiers would have any number of powerful psychic openings in war situations. NDE's, vastly enhanced senses of danger, life saving premonitions etc, as the out of the box conditions of war, are ripe for that kind of emergence.

My Cherokee friend, says he survived Nam by always requesting night missions. For some reason, he could see Vietcong as glowing red Balls of light at night, and their side's men as green. His men began to trust him and he claims he saved them from many ambushes, and started getting given mainly night missions.

Once his service was up that ability just disappeared.

 

To me these kind of things may also happen along side spiritual training but I would not call them spiritual. Sure some states that shock or a completely unfamiliar environment, could knock a person into, may be 'spiritual' In and of them selves, and may vastly change an Individual soldiers outlook, But I do not see how war can be called a spiritual Path.

The experiences had may cause a soldier, when he/she gets home to really reconsider things, or to even take up a spiritual path and if so, great!

 

Also, [please correct me if I am wrong] In Nam days there were many conscriptions and general awareness among soldiers of corrupt government agendas [out side the hippy movement] was fairly low.

 

These days Its fairly easy to see the corrupt government decisions behind the wars, and there is a Huge amount of social awareness around this subject.

 

In Light of Knowing, with the tiniest bit of research, that If you deliberately join the army you will be sent to kill Innocent people, Is very bad Karma and clearly separate from any spiritual path.

 

I think to be a spiritual Soldier, you must be able to be Absolutely 100% sure that you are standing for justice, righteousness and peace. Even the smallest doubt must be cause for Great restraint.

But we are not talking about the smallest doubt. We are talking about the American army here. A massive machine perpetuating despair, horror, terror and Evil.

 

I worry for onlyindreams. He is young, intelligent and has strong Ideals. But I am sure he understands that his government is corrupt. So what happens to him when he kills his first person in a less than clear situation.

When the knowledge dawns that he actually chose to be there, and that he can not undo what he has chosen.

 

Soldiers deal far better psychologically, with killing, when they can be clear that it was Just and Necessary for the greater good.

 

Onlyindreams can have no such clarity about the job he wishes for. He will forever wonder whether that person deserved it, whether he did the right thing or whether he is just a murderer. That will eat away at him.

 

I would not wish that on anyone.

 

Peace.

[Marblehead]

In my mind at least, ...

 

Excellent post there Stig. Thanks for sharing that with us.

[Marblehead]

So much for me to respond to here.

 

I'll star with the "spiritual path" first.

 

I did not mean to suggest that was could be a spiritual path. I was suggesting that one can follow a spiritual path while involved in the working of war. This is what separates what Stig referred to above concerning the difference between a soldier and a warrior.

 

Yes, one can have "spiritual" experiences during wartime but that is not what I was speaking to either. And yes, these experiences have the potential of changing one's life for the better. (As long as they can deal with the horrors of war.)

 

Yes, there were many draftees sent to Vietnam and many of them were anti-war protestors and they had to deal with their reality. Many turned to drugs because they couldn't deal with their reality.

 

I was a career man so I had nothing to say. I served but I did not volunteer. And yes, I served proudly and did my job the best I could.

 

 

Okay. To corrupt governments. Yours is just as corrupt as is mine. Yours is just not as powerful as mine is. The Aussies were very active in Vietnam and some of those blokes were very nasty fellows. No, they were not following a spiritual path.

 

 

Yes, it would be nice if we were 100% sure we were doing the right thing in everything we do in life. But we mostly do not have enough info in order to attain this security. So we go with our best guess. That's what life is. Our best guess. Those who think they are helping to prevent another 9/11 are valid in their thoughts, I think. The terrorists are very active. They have beeh on the front pages of most newspapers around the world the past couple of days. These terrorists need be stopped. They will not listen to reason. The only alternative is to remove them. Any soldier involved in the conflict can feel secure that he/she may possibly be saving the life on their neighbor.

 

And to the spiritual warrior, if that is the path he/she has chosen then it is up to them to justify to themselves the rightness of their actions, even when thay must kill in order to prevent themselves from being killed. When you have a weapon pointed at you there is only one option - remove the threat.

 

 

I think you are concentrating too much on America's role in this. The problem is a world problem. The terrorists are active not only in the Middle East but in Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere. The terrorists are determined to destroy all democratic societies, yours included. I think you should be a little more thankful that the conflict is taking place in the Middle East and not in Australia. It could be, you know. You, your mother, father, sisters and brothers could all be blown to little pieces just because you were alive. The terrorists don't want anyone to be left alive except for those who think exactly as they do.

 

 

I don't worry about onlyindrems at all. He has a sound mind and he has willingly chosen his own path. He will be fine regardless of what happens. And this is because he will be doing the right thing.

 

So I think that regardless of what you and I think about this subject because he too has his opinions and aspirations. As long as he keeps the attitude that what he is doing is for the good of most of the people he will be okay. Well, he will need behave in a compassionate manner, which, of course, will be rather difficult at times.

 

Yes, there is a difference between performing your duty and murdering a knowingly innocent civilian. However, in this conflict it is hard to tell who is the civilian because none of the terrorists wear a uniform. Your best guess is needed here. You can't wait until after he has fired a round at you - you will be dead. If he has a weapon and he is not on your side you must consider him your enemy.

 

And I will still state that the war in Afghanistan is a valid war. No, it was not conducted properly in the beginning and that is why it is still going on today. And remember, this war is a United Nations (Australia is included in it) war against terrorism. It is not about oil (as war Iraq) and it is not only about the United States.

 

Do you know how many Aussies were killed in the 9/11 attacks? You do know that there were people from many countries who were killed then, don't you? Some of them were Moslims. The terrorists didn't care who they were killing. They just wanted to kill people. Our forces are simply trying to stop them from killing more innocent people.

 

 

Peace.

 

Yes. That would be nice.

Edited November 2, 2010 by Marblehead

[onlyindreams]

Frankly I find all this talk about dying for your country kind of pointless. My philosophy has always been, worry about immediate family and friends first, then worry about the community and so on and so forth. Dying for politicians in DC is pretty low on my priority list.

And in regards to the War on Terror (or whatever it's called these days), it's completely fabricated. Our supposed casus-belli, 9/11, is completely illegitimate as it was conducted as a false flag operation by the same U.S government that screamed bloody murder, kind of like the Gulf of Tonkin. So the whole deal (yes, even Afghanistan) is a big lie. Don't believe the hype.

 

Who said anything about dying for my country? I have grown to dislike speaking of myself so much and detailing my thoughts in this thread, but I will say this:

 

I will die to uphold what I instinctively believe to be right, a decision that I hope to make without any self-consciousness.

 

I will die standing, on two feet that are firmly planted and with my chin held high - with a measure of dignity and equanimity... again I'm reminded of: "Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the thread of your destiny."

 

and fuck believing in the hype - I choose to play the game though.

Edited November 2, 2010 by onlyindreams

[onlyindreams]

A particular form or being may be invoked but the life-force itself needs no invoking; for example the air we breathe needs no invoking per-se. (with the life-force being quintessentially more important and of greater need than even air)

 

Many mixed voices roar for attention... yet the one still, small and vital voice when heard speaks louder and truer than all of them. Listen and respond, for she guides you with the power, goodness and truth of the life force, for without that any warrior will miss the mark.

 

 

I need to sit with this one for a while but it reflects a truth / set of questions that I have become intimately familiar with..

 

What is this mystery?

 

What is it truly, at depth?

 

and who are you whom I so faintly hear? who urge me ever on? what voice is this that speaks within me... guides me towards the best?

 

As Rumi so eloquently stated:

 

Intellectual searching will not find

the way to that king!

The movement of your finger

is not separate from your finger.

You go to sleep, or you die,

and there’s no intelligent motion.

Then you wake,

and your fingers

fill with meanings.

Now consider the jewel-lights

in your eyes. How do they work?

 

...But uncle, O uncle,

the universe of the creation-word,

the divine command to Be, that universe

of qualities is beyond any pointing to.

More intelligent than intellect,

and more spiritual than spirit.

No being is unconnected

to that reality, and that connection

cannot be said. There, there’s

no separation and no return...

 

...Observe the wonders as they occur around you.

Don’t claim them. Feel the artistry

moving through, and be silent.

Or say, "I cannot praise You

as You should be praised.

Such words are infinitely

beyond my understanding..."

 

 

 

 

 

Thank you 3bob

Edited November 2, 2010 by onlyindreams

[Birch]

I thought Stig's post about the warrior was very in line with what I understand/ have experienced. I think it's interesting on an international-level (I'd love to know how many Bums' are US vs elsewhere based) to see very (what I reckon, anyway) "spiritually advanced" people dishing it out to each other when it comes to something as "bottom line" as their home culture.

 

I have to ask, if your culture is producing shit outcomes for people then why defend it?

I was thinking, it might be because the outcomes for you and yours are less shit than for others but is that really the case? I don't know the answer to that one. It's another question I don't think I'd like the answer to.

 

As I've said several times to Bum's privately, if we're idealizing something then something's up.

 

I've found repeatedly on here that with many of these "military" threads, few of the non-US bums want to "go there" when it seems perfectly ok for them to share experience and ideas about blowing love and consciousness through their balls. Something's bizzarre (to me) about that.

[Seth Ananda]

Hi Marblehead, I do not know how to reply bit by bit to your stuff while keeping it in its box, which makes it easier to read so Ill Highlight your quotes for convenience...

 

 

"Okay. To corrupt governments. Yours is just as corrupt as is mine. Yours is just not as powerful as mine is. The Aussies were very active in Vietnam and some of those blokes were very nasty fellows. No, they were not following a spiritual path."

 

100% agreement there. And yes, some of those Aussies I have known.

 

 

"Yes, it would be nice if we were 100% sure we were doing the right thing in everything we do in life. But we mostly do not have enough info in order to attain this security. So we go with our best guess. That's what life is. Our best guess."

 

I personally find this more of an excuse and a bit week. When Life is at stake surely it is our responsibility to get enough Info. And the Info is easily available.

 

"Those who think they are helping to prevent another 9/11 are valid in their thoughts, I think. The terrorists are very active. They have beeh on the front pages of most newspapers around the world the past couple of days. These terrorists need be stopped. They will not listen to reason. The only alternative is to remove them. Any soldier involved in the conflict can feel secure that he/she may possibly be saving the life on their neighbor."

 

I Believe America primarily created Terrorism, by 1, stealing their oil, 2, murdering their people, 3, training them when it suited them to fight, 4, equipping them with proper gear for war. Now America doesn't want to face Its Karma. I feel deeply for the terrorist as well as their victims. Most terrorists lost huge amounts to the American war machine. They are doing what they can to fight back. We fire missiles into their homes. They are poor so they deliver them to us on foot. I do not see a difference.

 

On 9/11, I believe the American government did that against its own people. I do not want to turn this into a conspiracy thread, that is what I believe. There is so much good evidence to support this.

 

 

"And to the spiritual warrior, if that is the path he/she has chosen then it is up to them to justify to themselves the rightness of their actions, even when thay must kill in order to prevent themselves from being killed. When you have a weapon pointed at you there is only one option - remove the threat."

 

Looking to justify ones actions can lead one to many many ethically grey areas. It may also cause one to pull the wool over ones own eyes.

Every one wants to feel right about what they do, so they select the perspectives that suit them. I believe the Spiritual warrior has to be extremely careful with validation seeking...

 

"I think you are concentrating too much on America's role in this. The problem is a world problem. The terrorists are active not only in the Middle East but in Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere."

 

No, America the Free, is becoming the Hated symbol of oppression and environmental carelessness all over the world. All the other greedy politicisations, [like here in Aus] see what big daddy does and try to follow suit. America has paved the way to global destruction because it is so powerful and has so many outsiders that want to be 'in with it...' This is why Focus needs to be on all that is wrong with America. [of course the is plenty good as well but the good of America is what gets constantly shoved in every ones faces, to excuse all the vile corruption it spews out]

 

 

"The terrorists are determined to destroy all democratic societies, yours included. I think you should be a little more thankful that the conflict is taking place in the Middle East and not in Australia. It could be, you know. You, your mother, father, sisters and brothers could all be blown to little pieces just because you were alive. The terrorists don't want anyone to be left alive except for those who think exactly as they do."

 

Sorry, this is just not true. Sure they Hate people who oppress them, and those people start to be seen as evil Foreign Devils. So you start to hate them and everything they stand for.

 

If we stop being Evil to them, eventually they stop seeing us like that.

 

Sure maybe a few really are like that, but we should stop arming them and training them. It usally ends up biting us in the ass.

 

 

"I don't worry about onlyindrems at all. He has a sound mind and he has willingly chosen his own path. He will be fine regardless of what happens. And this is because he will be doing the right thing."

 

He will not be fine. No one is fine after killing someone. Some people kid them selves that they are, but no, not really. Especially now that he knows he would be serving in an unjust war...

 

"So I think that regardless of what you and I think about this subject because he too has his opinions and aspirations. As long as he keeps the attitude that what he is doing is for the good of most of the people he will be okay. Well, he will need behave in a compassionate manner, which, of course, will be rather difficult at times."

 

Say He ceases to believe that its for the good of most people. He will still be stuck in a war zone...

 

"Yes, there is a difference between performing your duty and murdering a knowingly innocent civilian. However, in this conflict it is hard to tell who is the civilian because none of the terrorists wear a uniform. Your best guess is needed here. You can't wait until after he has fired a round at you - you will be dead. If he has a weapon and he is not on your side you must consider him your enemy."

 

So this makes it OK? This in no way justifies being there in the first place.

 

 

"Do you know how many Aussies were killed in the 9/11 attacks? You do know that there were people from many countries who were killed then, don't you? Some of them were Moslims. The terrorists didn't care who they were killing. They just wanted to kill people. Our forces are simply trying to stop them from killing more innocent people."

 

American Gov did not care who it was killing. They have raked in massive profits from this clever move...

 

Thanks for your time

Seth.

[Mal]

Good thing he didn't call Seth a real insult like "cheerleader", or he would've been banned for a week! Thank the Tao for moderating consistency!

 

Dude you seem to be living in the past.

 

I try to assess issues on their merits, rather than attempt to be consistent with the past. Otherwise there would be no point in me reading how people felt about moderation decisions and modifying decisions based on that feedback.

 

Embrace change

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

I personally find this more of an excuse and a bit week. When Life is at stake surely it is our responsibility to get enough Info. And the Info is easily available.

Will you understand when i happen upon you in an overturned vehicle, on fire.. will you understand when i ask, "how fast were you going", did you see the other person.. was your vehicle well maintained.. was your body and mind well maintained, now.. please describe exactly how this accident occured.. will you understand as i gather the available data while YOUR "Life is at stake"?

 

That's how it was in Vietnam '69-'70, life was upside-down and burning, info came at you in supersonic lead projectiles and as kids with grenades.. info came as your buddy flicked the new zippo he just bought and the C4 it was loaded with blew his face off.. we didn't ask to be there, i was 19 and my saturday lab was canceled leaving me without enough hours to be classified as a student, so the US Gov't, not America, decided killing was good second career for me..

 

Now, to avoid the negative reinforcement of the moderators, the rest of your response to Marblehead's post will not be addressed except to suggest that you verify the accuracy of your caustic and inflamatory remarks.. your speculation is based largely on the witless conjurings of conspiracy theorist's paranoia..

 

Bob Waers

Three Harmony

Taiji Club

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Dude you seem to be living in the past.

 

I try to assess issues on their merits, rather than attempt to be consistent with the past. Otherwise there would be no point in me reading how people felt about moderation decisions and modifying decisions based on that feedback.

 

Embrace change

Mal, you're quite a a piece of work, you are. Inconsistency is inconsistency. Change is change. Insults are insults, except when they aren't. Who can tell? Not the moderators, apparently.

[Mal]

[Gerard]

The US has to and will face bad karma because of what they did to the Indigenous population after the Pilgrims arrived in 1620. Australia will also share that fate for identical reason. Humans, especially Europeans, have difficulties understanding the concept of karma, and the show must go on...unfortunately...for eternity.

[C T]

In my mind, Frank Serpico epitomizes some of the ideals of a 'spiritual' warrior.

(Serpico: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Serpico )

 

He never backed down on his commitment to uphold what he believed was good and right - no matter what price he had to pay to stand by his beliefs. He was in the Police force, but not of it, so to speak.

 

When Hollywood decided to recreate his life-story, Al Pacino, who was to play the lead role, invited Serpico to stay with him for a while. During a conversation, Al Pacino asked him how he managed to remain so resolutely determined in the face of such overwhelming odds, to which Serpico replied, "Well, Al, I don't know. I guess I will have to say it would be because... if I didn't, who would I be when I listened to a piece of music?"

 

Simply brilliant!

 

(Have read the book, and watched the movie many times... still find it highly inspiring)

Edited November 3, 2010 by CowTao

[Marblehead]

Hi Seth,

 

You read too much anti-American propaganda (commonly called bullshit). Hehehe.

 

"Yes, it would be nice if we were 100% sure we were doing the right thing in everything we do in life. But we mostly do not have enough info in order to attain this security. So we go with our best guess. That's what life is. Our best guess."

 

I personally find this more of an excuse and a bit week. When Life is at stake surely it is our responsibility to get enough Info. And the Info is easily available.

 

TzuJanLi already spoke to this very well so I have no need to expound.

 

 

"Those who think they are helping to prevent another 9/11 are valid in their thoughts, I think. The terrorists are very active. They have beeh on the front pages of most newspapers around the world the past couple of days. These terrorists need be stopped. They will not listen to reason. The only alternative is to remove them. Any soldier involved in the conflict can feel secure that he/she may possibly be saving the life on their neighbor."

 

I Believe America primarily created Terrorism, by 1, stealing their oil, 2, murdering their people, 3, training them when it suited them to fight, 4, equipping them with proper gear for war. Now America doesn't want to face Its Karma. I feel deeply for the terrorist as well as their victims. Most terrorists lost huge amounts to the American war machine. They are doing what they can to fight back. We fire missiles into their homes. They are poor so they deliver them to us on foot. I do not see a difference.

 

On 9/11, I believe the American government did that against its own people. I do not want to turn this into a conspiracy thread, that is what I believe. There is so much good evidence to support this.

 

I would like to suggest that your beliefs on this subject may well be misguided. Bin Laden created the current form of terrorism based on the terrorism practiced by Hezbollah. That is, the intentional killing of women and children and being too much of a coward to face your enemy in person.

 

Yes, it is true that the US CIA gave bin Laden support when he was fighting the Russians in Afghanistan. But bin Laden wanted more than just be a part of the new Afghan government. He wanted it all. He was refuse. He returned to Saudi Arabia and they didn't want him either. So he started his own war supported by the very same people who are trying to destroy Israel.

 

No, I will suggest that most terrorists are doped up on drugs and lies of 47 virigns if they give their life for the cause. Most of them don't even know what the cause is because all they can think about are the 47 virgins.

 

And what does America have to do with all the murder and slaughter the terrorists are involved in in Africa? Can you explain that? Of course you can't. No ne can except to say that the terrorists are out to kill anyone who does not believe the same way they do. They just want to kill people so they can have their 47 virgins.

 

 

"And to the spiritual warrior, if that is the path he/she has chosen then it is up to them to justify to themselves the rightness of their actions, even when thay must kill in order to prevent themselves from being killed. When you have a weapon pointed at you there is only one option - remove the threat."

 

Looking to justify ones actions can lead one to many many ethically grey areas. It may also cause one to pull the wool over ones own eyes.

Every one wants to feel right about what they do, so they select the perspectives that suit them. I believe the Spiritual warrior has to be extremely careful with validation seeking...

 

A true warrior does not have to justify his/her actions. They did what needed to be done. That is all - nothing more, nothing less.

 

 

 

"I think you are concentrating too much on America's role in this. The problem is a world problem. The terrorists are active not only in the Middle East but in Europe, Asia, Africa and elsewhere."

 

No, America the Free, is becoming the Hated symbol of oppression and environmental carelessness all over the world. All the other greedy politicisations, [like here in Aus] see what big daddy does and try to follow suit. America has paved the way to global destruction because it is so powerful and has so many outsiders that want to be 'in with it...' This is why Focus needs to be on all that is wrong with America. [of course the is plenty good as well but the good of America is what gets constantly shoved in every ones faces, to excuse all the vile corruption it spews out]

 

Although what you say may have been true during the Bush administration it is no longer true. You are living in the past.

 

And an Aussie has no right to compalin about what Americans have and are doing considering all the destruction they have undertaken in Australia. They have intentionally killed entire races of people who lived on those islands. And they took everything the Aboriginals had. Same on you folks!

 

 

 

"The terrorists are determined to destroy all democratic societies, yours included. I think you should be a little more thankful that the conflict is taking place in the Middle East and not in Australia. It could be, you know. You, your mother, father, sisters and brothers could all be blown to little pieces just because you were alive. The terrorists don't want anyone to be left alive except for those who think exactly as they do."

 

Sorry, this is just not true. Sure they Hate people who oppress them, and those people start to be seen as evil Foreign Devils. So you start to hate them and everything they stand for.

 

If we stop being Evil to them, eventually they stop seeing us like that.

 

Sure maybe a few really are like that, but we should stop arming them and training them. It usally ends up biting us in the ass.

 

But it is true. Osama bin Laden made that statement to the world. He is out to destroy anyone who does not accept his version of Islam.

 

And they will never see us as not evil because we are alive and think differently than they do. For then this is cause to kill us.

 

You really do need to understand the underlying roots behind what is going on. Remember, it is they who are throwing acid in the faces of young girls for no other reason than that they are going to school and trying to get an education. How evil is that?

 

No, they don't want anyone to get educated. They want everyone to be just as ignorant as they are and belive only what they believe.

 

 

"I don't worry about onlyindrems at all. He has a sound mind and he has willingly chosen his own path. He will be fine regardless of what happens. And this is because he will be doing the right thing."

 

He will not be fine. No one is fine after killing someone. Some people kid them selves that they are, but no, not really. Especially now that he knows he would be serving in an unjust war...

 

It is true that even if he does have opposing thoughts later he will still have to fulfill his commitment. That falls under the laws of contracts.

 

And how do you know what is in the mind of other people? You can speak only for yourself and what you believe to be true at this moment in time. If you ever come to the situation where you have to kill someone you have no idea how your life and beliefs will be effected. You have no idea how Onlyindreams will be effected.

 

There are many people who have killed for whatever the reason and continue to live in peace with themselves because they know they did what needed to be done. That too is called karma if you believe in the concept of karma.

 

 

"So I think that regardless of what you and I think about this subject because he too has his opinions and aspirations. As long as he keeps the attitude that what he is doing is for the good of most of the people he will be okay. Well, he will need behave in a compassionate manner, which, of course, will be rather difficult at times."

 

Say He ceases to believe that its for the good of most people. He will still be stuck in a war zone...

 

If he wants to have an Honorable discharge he will comply with the contract he signed. There have been many who have realized that military service was not for them and took a less-than-honorable discharge. His future cannot be told. You and I have no idea how he will react to various stimulus.

 

 

"Yes, there is a difference between performing your duty and murdering a knowingly innocent civilian. However, in this conflict it is hard to tell who is the civilian because none of the terrorists wear a uniform. Your best guess is needed here. You can't wait until after he has fired a round at you - you will be dead. If he has a weapon and he is not on your side you must consider him your enemy."

 

So this makes it OK? This in no way justifies being there in the first place.

 

Yes, it is okay to protect yourself. It is okay to kill (if necessary) someone who is wanting to kill you. You cannot tell me that you would just stand tall and proud and let some scumbag start carving on your body with a razor. No, you would defend yourself or at least try to run away.

 

No one person needs to justify their being their in the first place. They are there because they were placed on orders to serve a tour in that part of the world. That's military service.

 

The government of many nations of the world decided that it was important to fight today's terrorism and it was decided that a large effort would be placed on where it was born - in Afghanistan.

 

Personally, I would rather fight them over there than wait until they come here and I have to fight them. More of my loved ones would probably die if the fighting were being conducted in my part of the world.

 

 

"Do you know how many Aussies were killed in the 9/11 attacks? You do know that there were people from many countries who were killed then, don't you? Some of them were Moslims. The terrorists didn't care who they were killing. They just wanted to kill people. Our forces are simply trying to stop them from killing more innocent people."

 

American Gov did not care who it was killing. They have raked in massive profits from this clever move...

 

You didn't answer my question. And your reply is not valid. American government does care who its military is killing. We are not bombing Berlin or London.

 

Military targets are generally very carefully selected. One major consideration is to minimize civilian (or non-combatants) casualities. This is an important consideration. And this is not true for the terrorists. In fact, their primary targets have always been against defenseless civilians; women and children. They are too cowardly to step up against anyone their equal.

 

Thanks for your time

Seth.

 

Hey, I enjoy speaking to subjects such as this.

 

And I have no problem with pacifists. But they should remember that it is the spilt blood of those who defend freedom who have made it possible for them to be able to live what they believe in.

 

Nothing is free. Someone has to or already has paid for that freedom.

[3bob]

I need to sit with this one for a while but it reflects a truth / set of questions that I have become intimately familiar with..

 

What is this mystery?

 

What is it truly, at depth?

 

and who are you whom I so faintly hear? who urge me ever on? what voice is this that speaks within me... guides me towards the best?

 

As Rumi so eloquently stated:

 

Thank you 3bob

 

Great Rumi quote, and thank you also onlyindreams

Edited November 3, 2010 by 3bob

[3bob]

In my mind at least, I draw a distinction between a fighter or soldier and a Warrior. Though being a fighter or soldier can certainly be a pathway to becoming a Warrior, they certainly aren't the only pathways.

 

To me the true Warrior has only one concern ... freedom. And they will struggle until their dying breath for it's attainment.

 

But freedom for what and from what?

 

A Warrior's life is an incessant battle for self-sovereignty, self-independence, and the freedom of awareness. They fight for the freedom to stand as the being of their own choosing and to view the world with an unfettered awareness. They fight for the freedom of being a whole being; to fulfill the absolute potential of the human experience and engage the entire spectrum of possible human awareness.

 

And in that battle they have only one real adversary: the snares, chains and locked cages of social conditioning. The parental voices, the manipulations of siblings and friends, the contrivances of teachers and those who assume authority, and the mind-numbing intestinal gurgling of the very culture in which we live. All of these forces weave a harpy-song of "false self" around us; an illusion that distorts and separates us from who we are, making us believe these thoughts are our own, that they are who we are, and forces us to subscribe to a false view the world.

 

And how weak a warrior would be without such tests, without such battles... thus such forces as these are exactly what is needed to utterly prove beyond any doubt those that would serve and be fully entrusted with the purity of the Life-force!

 

Om

[The Observer]

I have grown to dislike speaking of myself so much and detailing my thoughts in this thread

 

Why?

 

 

...I will die to uphold what I instinctively believe to be right, a decision that I hope to make without any self-consciousness.

 

I will die standing, on two feet that are firmly planted and with my chin held high - with a measure of dignity and equanimity... again I'm reminded of: "Love nothing but that which comes to you woven in the thread of your destiny."

 

and fuck believing in the hype - I choose to play the game though.

 

I can't hate you for your opinion or beliefs...if you truly feel committed to this path then no one can stop you, but open your mind and properly inform yourself; deeply probe into yourself before you take this next step...

Then the rest is all you !

 

Best of luck in whatever endeavor you undertake Dreams!

 

 

 

 

 

...your speculation is based largely on the witless conjurings of conspiracy theorist's paranoia..

 

 

 

Visit these links, read them and then talk about paranoia:

 

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2001/09/19/eveningnews/main311834.shtml

 

http://911research.wtc7.net/cache/sept11/herald_spies.html

 

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/background/owners.html

 

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/attack/wtc7.html

 

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/compare/fires.html

 

To be aware of the whole truth, even the ugly part you'd rather deny, is better than conforming to what they spoon feed you through television and the media.

 

I'm sorry if I hurt anybody's feelings but I feel the whole picture must be shown before we start making judgments based on skewed misconceptions.

Edited November 3, 2010 by The Observer

[TzuJanLi]

Visit these links, read them and then talk about paranoia:

 

I read each link in its entireity.. what i see is speculation built on suspicion based on a desire to create 'stories'.. there is NO evidence proving any of the allegations.. yes, what i see is your paranoia based on these stories.. the stories aren't based on paranoia, they have the specific agenda to create paranoia.. now, who's being spoon-fed?

 

Be well..

[The Observer]

I read each link in its entireity.. what i see is speculation built on suspicion based on a desire to create 'stories'.. there is NO evidence proving any of the allegations.. yes, what i see is your paranoia based on these stories.. the stories aren't based on paranoia, they have the specific agenda to create paranoia.. now, who's being spoon-fed?

 

Be well..

 

Impossible, I posted them up a few minutes ago lol. READ don't skim!