What would YOU ask Bruce Frantzis?

[Pietro]

What documentation do you have to prove the legitimacy of your lineage and your position as its heir and transmitter?

 

 

There are some documents copied at the end of the book The Power of Internal Martial Arts.

(pg 359) There is a Bagua certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 6 September 1981;

(pg 361) There is a Hsing-I certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 11 September 1981;

(pg 360) A Tai Ji Certificate from the 11 September 1981 from the Beijing Institute of Physical Education;

 

Then (pg 362) there is the lineage list of Bagua, written by Liu, and having Bruce name as the 7th generation; and the Tai Ji lineage (pg 363) having Bruce as 7th generation.

 

Were you not aware of them? Or are you looking for other documents?

 

Also, Bruce has a PhD in medicine. So another interesting question might be the reference of his PhD, to read it. :-)

[Pietro]

Sorry, what did you mean with this? I don't understand.

 

But I ignore if it...

... sum of all standing postures in all of Taoism

[Pietro]

Obviously Mantak Chia's practices are very safe due to the high positive feedback from amazon and on his overall practices.

 

You might want to rethink this causal link

[dwai]

Who isn't a Buddhist... That's like asking the Pope, "oh those pesky Buddhist deny a creator god, can you tell me what you think if there is one or not?"

 

Though perhaps you're not thinking of Buddhism since it's not a nihilistic view.

 

That's why the question was directed to a Taoist Master not a self-annointed Bodhisattva

[Pero]

But I ignore if it...

... sum of all standing postures in all of Taoism

 

Can you rephrase? I just don't get it. Sorry for being a pest.

[Pero]

That's why the question was directed to a Taoist Master not a self-annointed Bodhisattva

 

Hm what? So for you asking a chemist about geography is better than asking a geographist about geography?

[Ya Mu]

There are some documents copied at the end of the book The Power of Internal Martial Arts.

(pg 359) There is a Bagua certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 6 September 1981;

(pg 361) There is a Hsing-I certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 11 September 1981;

(pg 360) A Tai Ji Certificate from the 11 September 1981 from the Beijing Institute of Physical Education;

 

Then (pg 362) there is the lineage list of Bagua, written by Liu, and having Bruce name as the 7th generation; and the Tai Ji lineage (pg 363) having Bruce as 7th generation.

 

Were you not aware of them? Or are you looking for other documents?

 

Also, Bruce has a PhD in medicine. So another interesting question might be the reference of his PhD, to read it. :-)

PhD, per website, is in health sciences - not medicine; no mention of where. May be the same thing in other countries but not here.

 

Dang, Kumar was sure busy in 1981, certified in 3 MA's. Same time I was studying the healing arts with my Taoist teacher.

 

For anyone else desiring to know his published credentials see http://www.energyarts.com/content/bruces-bio

[Pietro]

Can you rephrase? I just don't get it. Sorry for being a pest.

 

You asked if the 200 postures summed up all the postures inside taoism, and you asked a bunch of other questions. I gave you the information that I knew, so that we could focus on the information that Bruce has not given out yet. Then I pointed out on the information that he hasn't said so far. In particular I do not know, nor do I know of any student of Bruce that knows, if the 200 postures are ALL the postures in Taoism. So it was a good question. Just that! Really :-).

 

P.S. if you still have doubts please pm me. :-D

 

PhD, per website, is in health sciences - not medicine

 

Thanks, I zhan zhuang corrected :-)

Edited November 9, 2010 by Pietro

[Pablo]

My questions are:

 

- Even though Liu Hung Chieh was already recognized as "enlightened" in the Mahayana Tien Tai school of Chinese Buddhism, he later on focused in taoist meditation practices. So, what aspects of the spiritual road he considered not covered well enough by the buddhist practices? Also, did Liu Hung Chieh mentioned what insights of the Buddhist tradition are harder to get in Taoism?

 

- Does the Water Method "flattens" the peak and pit stages in the Buddhist path, named "Arising & Passing" and "The Dark Night of the Soul" ?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Pablo

Edited November 9, 2010 by Pablo

[dwai]

Hm what? So for you asking a chemist about geography is better than asking a geographist about geography?

 

No, I'm just not asking an idiot to explain something far beyond his capabilities but directing the question towards someone with brains.

 

Edited November 9, 2010 by dwai

[Jetsun]

My questions are:

 

- Even though Liu Hung Chieh was already recognized as "enlightened" in the Mahayana Tien Tai school of Chinese Buddhism, he later on focused in taoist meditation practices. So, what aspects of the spiritual road he considered not covered well enough by the buddhist practices? Also, did Liu Hung Chieh mentioned what insights of the Buddhist tradition are harder to get in Taoism?

 

- Does the Water Method "flattens" the peak and pit stages in the Buddhist path, named "Arising & Passing" and "The Dark Night of the Soul" ?

 

Thanks for your help.

 

Pablo

 

Those are some good questions

[sean]

FYI, been juggling 10,000 things and haven't compiled the interview yet so keep firing away if you have more questions. I'm hoping to carve out some time this evening...

 

Sean

[Vajrahridaya]

No, I'm just not asking an idiot to explain something far beyond his capabilities but directing the question towards someone with brains.

 

 

It seems to me that most Taoists would disagree with the idea of a universal consciousness as a ground of all being and would call it a passing experience brought upon through focus and meditation and not the ground of being.

[Sloppy Zhang]

FYI, been juggling 10,000 things and haven't compiled the interview yet so keep firing away if you have more questions. I'm hoping to carve out some time this evening...

 

Sean

 

Well please let us know when you compile them and send them off! I'd really like to know how he'd respond to some of these! A few of us here, including myself, have practiced/practice his methods but have not had a chance to meet/talk with him in person (though there are a few people here who have done a great job of helping us along with Frantzis' material!), and it'd be great to hear his responses to some of these questions!

[RiverSnake]

It seems to me that most Taoists would disagree with the idea of a universal consciousness as a ground of all being and would call it a passing experience brought upon through focus and meditation and not the ground of being.

 

I wonder if two buddhas ever argued over philosophy or is it just there underlings which do so?

[Vajrahridaya]

I wonder if two buddhas ever argued over philosophy or is it just there underlings which do so?

 

Actually as recorded in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha himself engaged in philosophical debates.

 

Debating is in fact part of the Buddhist practice in many lineages.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

What the hell, Vajra, I thought you said you weren't going to do this kind of thing anymore?!?

Edited November 10, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

What the hell, Vajra, I thought you said you weren't going to do this kind of thing anymore?!?

 

What, debate in the Taoism vs. Buddhism thread? Why not? It's fun, until people become insulting jerks.

 

I'm not really debating on this thread.

Edited November 10, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[goldisheavy]

I wonder if two buddhas ever argued over philosophy or is it just there underlings which do so?

 

Presumably two Buddhas would simply agree with each other. However Buddhas argue with sentient beings all the time. It's essential.

 

Even highly developed Buddhists who are considered to be high level Bodhisattvas and who can perform miracles, they argue.

 

Read here about the debates between Candrakirti and Candragomin, both while not Buddhas would effectively be Buddhas to you considering their wisdom and yours:

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=bzb-Gih7k1EC&pg=PA74&lpg=PA74&dq=candrakirti+debate+candragomin&source=bl&ots=tQY-huqOPl&sig=07_lIzEX6dQiPULSQxv5GSls_dE&hl=en&ei=pg3aTJ-zPIu8sQOXrbmKCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CBMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=candrakirti%20debate%20candragomin&f=false

Edited November 10, 2010 by goldisheavy

[Taomeow]

There are some documents copied at the end of the book The Power of Internal Martial Arts.

(pg 359) There is a Bagua certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 6 September 1981;

(pg 361) There is a Hsing-I certificate written By Liu Hung Chieh from 11 September 1981;

(pg 360) A Tai Ji Certificate from the 11 September 1981 from the Beijing Institute of Physical Education;

 

Then (pg 362) there is the lineage list of Bagua, written by Liu, and having Bruce name as the 7th generation; and the Tai Ji lineage (pg 363) having Bruce as 7th generation.

 

Were you not aware of them? Or are you looking for other documents?

 

Also, Bruce has a PhD in medicine. So another interesting question might be the reference of his PhD, to read it. :-)

 

Thank you, Pietro. No, I wasn't aware of them, I don't have this book.

 

I guess the next question would have to be, has anyone examined these for authenticity? And if yes, why the rumors? And if no, why not? Or am I asking too much?

[Gerard]

Chinese hermits do not provide certificates. It's just a blessing metting them if you are fortunate enough to encounter one. I wouldn't worry too much about a piece of paper but the real and practical knowledge of the instructor, BKF in our case which I don't doubt bearing in mind he studied and learnt that long in China and Taiwan from various reputable masters (and also Japan for that matter).

[RiverSnake]

Actually as recorded in the Pali Suttas, the Buddha himself engaged in philosophical debates.

 

Debating is in fact part of the Buddhist practice in many lineages.

 

Oh, don't know what the Pali Suttas are. You got any specific reccomendations. Would be interesting to read.

[Vajrahridaya]

Oh, don't know what the Pali Suttas are. You got any specific reccomendations. Would be interesting to read.

 

Well, it's volumes! It's all the first teachings of the Buddha that contain his life story, experiences, insights, debates with people of different traditions including Jain and Hindu views. It contains his rules of conduct for monks and lay practitioners. It's huge! I wouldn't know where to send you really. It would be good to just pick up a book that translates well, skipping over the repetition that is in many of the Suttas.

[Pero]

You asked if the 200 postures summed up all the postures inside taoism, and you asked a bunch of other questions. I gave you the information that I knew, so that we could focus on the information that Bruce has not given out yet. Then I pointed out on the information that he hasn't said so far. In particular I do not know, nor do I know of any student of Bruce that knows, if the 200 postures are ALL the postures in Taoism. So it was a good question. Just that! Really :-).

 

P.S. if you still have doubts please pm me. :-D

 

Ohhhhhhhh... Thanks, I get it now (LOL).

[Taomeow]

Chinese hermits do not provide certificates. It's just a blessing metting them if you are fortunate enough to encounter one. I wouldn't worry too much about a piece of paper but the real and practical knowledge of the instructor, BKF in our case which I don't doubt bearing in mind he studied and learnt that long in China and Taiwan from various reputable masters (and also Japan for that matter).

 

BKF's teacher was not a hermit. He lived in Beijing and headed a taoist sect. Taoist sects do not initiate members or students without confirming the fact.

 

Of course someone can get taught by someone unorthodox or even mysterious (this I know full well...) but this is different from asserting you are an heir to a lineage. People who name teachers who refuse to recognize them as legitimate transmitters may be great teachers in their own right, but... traditionally, they are different from teachers who are recognized by their teachers as legitimate transmitters. There's lots of fine distinctions involved. E.g., you can change a lineage if you are a blood relative of the teacher, you truly inherit it to do as you please with it. But if you are not a blood relative, even if you are named as a transmitter, you can only transmit, you can't change it, this would lose you much "face" and insult the family. There's all kinds of considerations involved... Suppose I want to learn XYZ from Bob the transmitter... I want to make sure that I'm learning XYZ rather than X-Bob-Y-Phil-Z-from-a-video. If I want the latter, I won't ask for proof of lineage. But if I want XYZ and am bent on that, on getting a traditional art transmitted rather than a creative innovation, I will.

 

The worry about a piece of paper is not the worry about a piece of paper. It is a worry about a teacher's (any teacher's, not this one specifically) integrity. A lineage is a serious thing, traditionally. As serious as a will, only instead of material wealth, you get spiritual wealth "willed" to you if you are found worthy. "Hermits" may or may not be great teachers. Mostly they aren't, because, well, if they wanted to teach, they wouldn't be hermits.

 

In any event, if accusations are false, I think it's a good idea to strike them down and put them to rest rather than not. Is Obama a citizen of the USA or of Kenya?.. Who knows?.. Wouldn't it be easier to just produce the damn birth certificate?.. Not that I care, I believe he is a cloned Egyptian pharaoh anyway... but if I cared, I'd want to see that piece of paper, just for shits and giggles.