What would YOU ask Bruce Frantzis?

[Sloppy Zhang]

BKF's teacher was not a hermit. He lived in Beijing and headed a taoist sect. Taoist sects do not initiate members or students without confirming the fact.

 

Well he's referenced as an "urban hermit" of some sort, because while he did live in Beijing, he didn't really make contact with a lot of people, and didn't teach any students other than two or three (BKF, Bai Hua, and I seem to recall reading somewhere that he taught a relative of someone he knew from the bagua school he was in, but that may have just been Bai Hua, as the running story that you hear is that he only taught two).

 

As an aside, the book, "The Whirling Circles of Baguazhang" has an interesting little bit at the front about who taught whom and from where. They do a very good job about connecting the dots with martial arts teachers/students, at least, some of it gets very complicated, especially when cross generation people start teaching people from other lineages, and so-and-so is so-and-so's martial uncle/cousin/brother yadda yadda. Not much on the spiritual lineage tracing, but I seem to recall it's from this book that my recollection of a third student comes from. Anyway, Liu Hung Chieh and BKF appear in that little segment, which I'm sure can be found on google books still, for anyone wanting to check it out.

 

I agree with the rest about verifying a lineage I know many people just want to find "a practice that works", and don't really care about lineage. And that's fine. But sometimes you DO want a lineage, and in those instances, you gotta do the research. And people claiming a certain lineage, you gotta back it up!

 

But I've never really felt comfortable saying, and maybe it's because I don't read it too often, "BKF's lineage". I think that in the books he mostly refers to his stuff as "the water tradition of daoism". I'm not sure how much BKF really fashions himself, if at all, an "inheritor", I don't know how much, if any at all, he's really changed the material/structure of the system (though I know he has, in many cases, distilled some of his vast experiences into a few forms that are highly effective and representative of certain principles). From what I've gathered from the writings, when his main teacher passed away, BKF wasn't really ready to start teaching the "serious" stuff (meditation, advanced qigong, advanced bagua and advanced tai chi) and mostly stuck with the basics, and it took him a while to kinda grow into teaching more of the serious stuff. But that may be my oversight and skewed interpretation!

Edited November 10, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Pietro]

Hi TaoMeow,

old tao bum friend of mine.

 

I think you are absolutely correct, in your requiring the lineage to be pure and certified.

Bruce always claimed that he has completed the training to the point of being a lineage master, that Liu claimed that he (Bruce) has reached the body of individuality (refer for this to the book-relaxing into your being).

 

As such he assumes a very different position respect to all the people who halfway through the training said they have enough, and walk away. He stopped studying with Liu because Liu died.

 

When I say that there are copies of documents in those books I mean that the documents are actually photocopied. With chinese writings and translation in english below. I don't know what would be needed to authenticate them.

 

Liu was called a Urban hermit, but Liu was a learned men, so I am sure he passed to Bruce every document that it was needed for him to be what he felt Bruce had attained. After all Liu was doing his duty in passing on the lineage, so he had no intention to recognize in Bruce any level below what he has reached. Remember also that Liu showed that he knew when he was going to die. So he probably had time to prepare.

 

Not only, but Bruce told me that in Beijing he attended a meeting where only masters where allowed to enter. This is what he means when he says that he is a master in Beijing.

 

How would you authenticate those documents?

 

I also would not know how to ask Bruce without sound insulting. I mean, I have a degree in maths from the university of Rome. Now suppose you want me to show you the degree. This I can happily provide (and in fact I need to provide it every time I get a job in the academia). But then you look at it, and say: hmm, has this piece of paper ever been authenticated? Now that does not sound exactly respectful, does it? ;-). In any case if there are rumors around, you should find exactly what those rumors say, who says it, and I am sure if you contact the office they will do something about it (in the sense of showing whatever document is needed). Considering that the world of masters is a small world indeed, he might even just contact the person doubting him, and clarifying with him.

 

Liu also adopted Bruce as a son in his family, with the traditional chinese rites. This permitted to Liu to pass to Bruce the material without asking him to make specific vows. But even releasing Bruce from previous vows for all that Liu re-taught Bruce, and that Bruce already knew. So we now have a lineage master who is practically free of vows to teach. This is rare indeed.

 

You are absolutely correct in saying that there is a difference between people who are allowed to only pass on a lineage and people who can change it. I asked Bruce if he could add things to his lineage, and he answered that he could not because: "that would require an immortal", which he never claimed to be.

 

So although he is considered a relative (having been adopted) he still cannot change the lineage because he lacks the level necessary. But he can teach (nearly) freely, which most lineage holders cannot.

 

He also explained me that Liu did not have the time to finish Bruce training as an immortal, and told him that that would have needed about 3 other years. Now Bruce would need to find another immortal to complete this training. And someone from the water method tradition (I suppose). If you, Taomeow, know anyone, we might put them in contact.

 

As you point out there is a difference between being the only person responsible for a lineage and someone among others who passes the lineage on. He has multiple lineages, but in many of them (bagua, hsing i, tai ji wu style, tai ji old yang style) he is just a person transmitting it (my understanding). In that particular branch of the water tradition he might be the holder.

 

I hope this helps.

Pietro (who feels humbled of speaking of things so much bigger of him)

[Taomeow]

Pietro, my friend, that was excellent and clear, thank you again.

 

I guess "rumors" will pester anyone at a certain level, comes with the territory, so to speak. Maybe it's jealousy, professional or human, maybe it's merely love of gossip, or maybe it's one of the tests a teacher must pass -- "loss of face" is a very difficult test to pass without folding but you are not supposed to fold if you know you stand by your truth ("a mountain will crumble before him and he won't bat an eyelid" -- Zhuangzi). Reminds me of something David Icke says in his interviews -- he lived through a time when he was the laughing stock of all of England, people pointing a finger and cracking up in his face in the street, in the press, everywhere he turned he was the national clown. Twenty years down the road, the same people pack lecture halls where he speaks like so many sardines. So he says, after living through a whole country ridiculing me, by the million, what's there left in the world for me to be afraid of?..

 

I don't know if I know any immortals. I only know someone who I suspect is, but he won't claim it, instead he teaches his students to think of themselves in terms of a 160-year-long lifespan, and considers himself a teenager in his 60s. But I don't think his method is a pure "water method" -- though it isn't a "fire method" either -- I'm too early in the game to understand all the dynamics involved, but a later stage was foreshadowed where it becomes clear that there's no "pure" wuxing phases left, they get intermixed...

[surfingbudda]

Hi Pietro,

Could you, or anyone else please elaborate on what is the difference between a taoist master and immortal? You said BKF was 3 years away from becoming an immortal.

[Pietro]

Hi Pietro,

Could you, or anyone else please elaborate on what is the difference between a taoist master and immortal? You said BKF was 3 years away from becoming an immortal.

 

 

Hi.

That's a big question. Why don't you make it more general ("Goals in Taoisms", or "Achievements in Taoism", "Official Recognitions in Taoism", ...) and open a new thread on it. Even if you are only interested in the answer from the tradition I follow you still should open up a new thread: ("... in the Water method tradition of Taoism").

 

That way it will get the attention it deserves, and you will get a wider range of experiences.

 

Late Edit: grammar

Edited November 11, 2010 by Pietro

[BigCojones]

Hey Sean.

 

! question I you should ask is about the IMA's ability to heal joint injuries. (Knees, shoulders etc.) He states in many of his books that they are in fact super duper good at healing joint trauma. BUT THAT'S. Nothing on the specifics. He will also state in the same book to that bagua stepping (for exapmle) can hurt your knees. So there is some incongruency here. If you could ask about healing joints via IMA that would be AWESOME.

 

Also I would like to know if he is planning to release the bagua mastery program for a larger aduience than to the 250 in the future or is this the only chance to get the contents to the bagua mastery program??

 

Thx man your doing a huge favor making these interviews.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Hey Sean.

 

Also I would like to know if he is planning to release the bagua mastery program for a larger aduience than to the 250 in the future or is this the only chance to get the contents to the bagua mastery program??

 

Thx man your doing a huge favor making these interviews.

 

Hey Sean, if you're still compiling the questions and waiting to send them, I'd second this, and also add if he has plans to release individual DVD's or books on the material in smaller segments. Hundreds of dollars at a time might be too much for some people to drop on a product at a time, but stuff in the $35-$75 range might be a bit more accessible.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Also, in "Relaxing Into Your Being" he gives instructions for circle walking, but doesn't mention positions for arms/hands. What hand/arm positions would he recommend for someone who is circle walking, though hasn't learned or who isn't at the time working with any palm changes?

[johndoe2012]

What hand/arm positions would he recommend for someone who is circle walking, though hasn't learned or who isn't at the time working with any palm changes?

 

IMHO you find the answer to your question on youtube. Just look at some bagua videos.

[Pietro]

IMHO you find the answer to your question on youtube. Just look at some bagua videos.

 

Hmm, the whole point of the teachings that Bruce is giving is not to copy the position from the outside, but to know what you should do with the energy, the ligaments, the muscles, the awareness, the glands & organs and then let the position come out of that. The external position might not be as pretty, but it is effective, and that is what is important.

 

In another workshop we were even told that telling to someone that his tai ji form is beautiful can sound like an insult in China. Something similar to you telling to a carpenter that his hammer is beautiful, or to a car racer that his car is pretty.

 

 

At the workshop in Rome recently we were given instructions on how to start moving the hand while circle walking. I can't share it because I haven't practiced it enough. But I know that it will all be in the Bagua mastery program. Of course it is only worth paying for it if you intend to actually practice it.

[Sloppy Zhang]

IMHO you find the answer to your question on youtube. Just look at some bagua videos.

 

 

Hmm, the whole point of the teachings that Bruce is giving is not to copy the position from the outside, but to know what you should do with the energy, the ligaments, the muscles, the awareness, the glands & organs and then let the position come out of that. The external position might not be as pretty, but it is effective, and that is what is important.

 

In another workshop we were even told that telling to someone that his tai ji form is beautiful can sound like an insult in China. Something similar to you telling to a carpenter that his hammer is beautiful, or to a car racer that his car is pretty.

 

 

At the workshop in Rome recently we were given instructions on how to start moving the hand while circle walking. I can't share it because I haven't practiced it enough. But I know that it will all be in the Bagua mastery program. Of course it is only worth paying for it if you intend to actually practice it.

 

Yeah, it's not too hard to find examples on youtube of various techniques. That's how I learned the chen style tai chi form (got a book on it later though). But knowing the underlying aspects is a big deal as well. Though I could find the form, I didn't really know what I was doing until I learned the material in "Opening the Energy Gates of Your Body" and other material from B.K. Frantzis.

 

Though I'll go back and check again, the only instruction on what to do with the hands in "Relaxing Into Your Being" is when he teaches straight line walking, and says to have them like you do in standing posture. Once I started to practice circle walking, my arms/hands started to feel a need to do something as well after a while. And while I can look up palm changes easily enough and copy them, I'd like to know at least a bit about their underlying aspects before I start to practice it.

 

Pietro, when you get to a point where you can share, I'd look forward to it

Edited November 13, 2010 by Sloppy Zhang

[Pietro]

I just had a chat with my teacher (also a student of Bruce but from longer, as well as a Tai Chi man from another lineage), he recognized this:

 

 

 

 

 

- Even though Liu Hung Chieh was already recognized as "enlightened" in the Mahayana Tien Tai school of Chinese Buddhism, he later on focused in taoist meditation practices. So, what aspects of the spiritual road he considered not covered well enough by the buddhist practices? Also, did Liu Hung Chieh mentioned what insights of the Buddhist tradition are harder to get in Taoism?

 

 

as the most interesting question. I would concur that it is very interesting. And I hope it gets asked.

[Pietro]

Hi Pietro,

Could you, or anyone else please elaborate on what is the difference between a taoist master and immortal? You said BKF was 3 years away from becoming an immortal.

 

He did not say that he needed 3 years to become an immortal, but 3 years to complete the training. Completing a training means that you know what to do. Then you need to do it, and it might take more than a lifetime. But once you have completed the training you can also pass it on.

 

I know this does not answer fully your question. That would have taken too much time. But it was a needed clarification, not to let confusion arise downstream

[gendao]

I heard that he wiggled his kidneys live on Donahue back around 1993-1995?

 

Could he film another short demo of that (or any other internal organs) and post it on YouTube for us, please?

[Franklin]

I heard that he wiggled his kidneys live on Donahue back around 1993-1995?

 

Could he film another short demo of that (or any other internal organs) and post it on YouTube for us, please?

 

lol

 

how about just read this book

and follow some of the exercises and do this for yourself...

http://www.amazon.com/Anatomy-Breathing-Blandine-Calais-Germain/dp/0939616556/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1291524261&sr=8-1

 

 

franklin

 

edit- just wanted to be clear- not saying anything about Bruce's abilities or anything

but i had a friend in TCM school that had been around him a bit and he was also very impressed by the moving the internal organs stuff....

the book just gives some practical exercises for gaining control of the breathing

including if i remember an exercise for gaining control over one side of the diaphragm at a time

which will let you wiggle the internal organs

Edited December 5, 2010 by Franklin

[Long Yun]

Hey what happened with this interview? It's been a couple of months and I just wanted to check in on the progress.

[manitou]

Also it would be interesting what he thought about his methods helping to cure post traumatic stress disorder as this is a mental disorder which is resistant to psychotherapy and medication approaches.

 

 

I'd like to know what he says about PTSD too. I was pensioned off with this 30 years ago and the symptoms actually get worse as the years go on.

 

There's only one thing that ever helps me, and that's to Be Here Now. The good thing about having PTSD is that it requires me to do that all the time....

[sean]

still waiting, i heard he is working on it though and even wanted to make a whole blog post or two out of some of the questions. i'll write them today and see what's up.

 

sean

[Long Yun]

My question is, "How do your Qigong techniques fit within the scope of Taoist Internal Alchemical processes?" Not sure if someone has already posted something to that degree or not, but just in case here it is.

 

Also, I would love to hear more information on the lineage of the Water Method before Liu Hung Chieh. Where did he learn it from, etc.

 

Thanks for doing this Sean. This was a great idea.

 

Long Yun

[Jetsun]

I'd like to know what he says about PTSD too. I was pensioned off with this 30 years ago and the symptoms actually get worse as the years go on.

 

There's only one thing that ever helps me, and that's to Be Here Now. The good thing about having PTSD is that it requires me to do that all the time....

 

I thought I had PTSD for a while and did a lot of research into the area, it is a horrifying state to be in so you have my sympathy for living with it so long manitou. I'm guessing you have looked into all the treatments as I did, there is some evidence that EMDR therapy can cure some cases but I always thought that some form of Qigong could help with it as it appears to be caused by an unresolved charge of energy in the nervous system so I thought a decent Qigong would be able to flush it away or relax your nervous system enough for you to process it, but finding the appropriate method seems difficult.

 

When searching I found a Malaysian healer called Yap Soon Yeong who teaches a form called CFQ Qigong which they used to treat people with shock and trauma after the Tsunami in 2004 and he appears to have some success treating traumas with his system, although it didn't fully work for me which was when I realised I don't have PTSD in any normal sense. S F Jane also cleared PTSD symptoms from her body using BK Frantzis methods of healing, so some of these Qigong healing methods may work in some cases. It would be interesting to see what BK Frantzis says about this subject.

[manitou]

I've just gotten used to it. The electrical level is ridiculous, I have no filters at all for light or loud sound, and I can be jumpy as a cat. The ringing ears is horrible. It got even worse after I became spontaneously kundalini active after an auto accident. It just seems to be part of the whole package.

 

It actually is very similar to the place of electrical surge and loud humming/ringing that happens during tantric sex. I just look at it as experiencing 'the collective of souls' daily, if this makes any sense. If I didn't look at it this way, I'd go crazy.

[candide]

Reading this whole thread (didn't find it earlier as I wasn't a member back then) gave me some pauses. I've signed up for Bruce's Bagua Master Program last year, and it's pretty much my first contact/exposure to the whole internal energy world. I've been doing the exercises for over two months now, and the silly/competitive part of me asks questions like "why bother if you're never going to become a master?". It's true that I won't reach Bruce's level, and his teacher was on a higher level still, but so what? Why do anything in life? I enjoy doing it and that's reason enough.

 

There's an interview with Bruce from 1987 on youtube, where he said that high level internal arts will either see a renaissance in the next 20-30 years or just disappear. 20 years have passed and unless I'm mistaken the second scenario seems more likely. However, I wonder if that's a terminal thing. The old masters of the past had to figure it out all themselves too, didn't they? Knowledge didn't grow on trees. It probably took them hundreds of lives, but the question is, can we recreate it? I don't see why not. We are in a much better position nowadays - we can communicate with each other, live longer/easier, have incredible amount of information available... this should probably be a separate thread though.

[Mal]

"If you could only buy one of your books, which one and why?"

Ended up going with "The Power of Internal Martial Arts and Chi"

 

Always wanted it but tends to be a bit expensive in Aus. Then it turned up today as a one day special on fishpond but $1 cheaper at bookdepository

 

So it seems it's time to check this one out properly