Rationality and Shamanism

[island]

Can anyone explain ways in which Shamanism or Shamanic practices could be considered 'rational' from the western mind perspective?

[xakarii]

As Ricky Ricardo would say "Lucy, you got some readin' to do!"

 

Carl Jung's work played an important role in shaping modern psychology. Through a thorough exploration of Jung's psychological ideas and the ancient beliefs of shamanistic cultures, this unique investigation unveils startling parallels between the two. As different as they may seem at first glance, these two branches of human paradigm and belief have amazing similarities in structure and function. Interspersed with the writings of Jung, this fascinating account traces the forces and patterns of symbolism common to shamanism and depth psychology. By studying these parallels, it is possible to get a glimpse into major aspects of the human psyche and understand the universality of psychic events in time and space.

 

http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Psychology-C-G-Jung-Circle/dp/1843335883

[SeriesOfTubes]

Not really sure what you have in mind by the term Shamanism, whether you're referring to indigenous Siberian or something else, but considering all disorder and disease can rationally be thought of in terms of the diathesis stress hypothesis which suggests that genetic factors predispose an individual to a certain condition, pathogenic or otherwise, but that environmental and internal stress factors ( trauma, events, certain relationships, emotions, etc) must impinge in order for the potential risk to manifest itself. All forms of healing can rationally be thought of in terms of removal of stressors and letting the body naturally heal itself.

 

I was recently speaking with a chiropractor friend the other day who was explaining how pretty much everything that can go wrong in the body can be accounted for by a mechanism disturbed by a stressor, and that the body is fully capable of healing itself of anything as long as the various stress factors are reduced or removed, and as long as the chromosomes have not been damaged and the whole system is not under attack. This may take the invasive form of surgery or medication but the end goal is still removing a stressor.

 

So even if the disorder is thought of as having been caused by invading spirits, a curse (suggestion?), loss of soul (trauma?), the goal is simply to remove a stressor and let the body do it's thing, which is to heal itself. You could probably make the case that "shamanic" type medicine treats most if not all disease as psychogenic.

 

And thats not even getting into that fact that most western medicine was derived from studying and synthesizing plant medicines of the "new world", or that many indigenous cultures are traditionally have caretakers of a vast pharmacopeia and knowledge of its use, something thats not really foreign to a western perspective at all. Or the bias that the western mind has any sort of monopoly on rationality or reason.

[thelerner]

Interesting question. I don't think shamanism lends itself to the western sense of rationality. Yet there are times the truly rational mind has to let go because there are clearly benefits that be gotten. I.e. Energy and faith healer of different kinds that are actually effective healers and diagnosticians.

 

Quantum and energy explanations are questionable, but results aren't. What the west refers to as placebo effect is a whole deeper then what is usually presumed.

 

Taow Meow has provided some deep looks into shamanism whys and hows.

 

 

Michael

[rex]

I like this from Alice in Wonderland ...

 

A meeting of two unbelievable people:

 

'What--is--this?' [the Unicorn] said at last.

 

'This is a child!' Haigha replied eagerly, coming in front of Alice to introduce her, and spreading out both his hands towards her in an Anglo-Saxon attitude. 'We only found it to-day. It's as large as life, and twice as natural!'

 

'I always thought they were fabulous monsters!' said the Unicorn. 'Is it alive?'

 

'It can talk,' said Haigha, solemnly.

 

The Unicorn looked dreamily at Alice, and said 'Talk, child.'

 

Alice could not help her lips curling up into a smile as she began: 'Do you know, I always thought Unicorns were fabulous monsters, too! I never saw one alive before!'

 

'Well, now that we HAVE seen each other,' said the Unicorn, 'if you'll believe in me, I'll believe in you. Is that a bargain?'

 

'Yes, if you like,' said Alice.

[Apech]

Can anyone explain ways in which Shamanism or Shamanic practices could be considered 'rational' from the western mind perspective?

 

Rational means 'with ratio' - that is there are formal relationships which can be defined within the subject. Rationality is a good servant but a poor master. That is once the subject has been given reason can be applied to help understand it - but if you ask reason for a 'why' or sometimes even a 'how' it can't supply the answer.

 

Shamanism deals with ecstatic states and a kind of extra dimension to the world. Ecstatic means literally standing outside yourself or the bliss of release from the limitations of finite being. The closest idea that western science has to the shamanic realm is the sub-conscious and/or the collective unconscious. But the rational mind of scientists who generally study without practice is to put this part of ourselves (and the world) in a box. They regard the sub-conscious as a finite inner part of the mind of the individual (or some kind of shared inner core). But they are only allowing themselves to perceive part of what is actually an infinite field of consciousness.

 

Because the shaman explores this infinite realm and goes beyond themselves they will always be beyond rational limits. But that is not the same as saying it is irrational. Far from it - in fact if the truths revealed are properly integrated into a person they would become super-rational if I can use that term.

 

This is what I think anyway.

[Seth Ananda]

Rationality? I would like to avoid being too black and white with this subject and suggest that maybe the rational can not be truly separated from the Irrational.

 

After all the Shaman has a very clear set of goals on her journey, and I would not say she is particularly out of control at any stage even though it may loot that way from the out side.

 

The Shamanistic World View, one could say, has Its own set of 'Rational' principles or its own unique form of Logic.

 

For Instance to discover some illness originates in having displeased an Element, or from an Angry Ex makes perfect sense within the world view.

 

Seth.

[Birch]

"Rationality is a good servant but a poor master."

 

What about "logic"?

 

I also wonder if there is a "non-rational" abstraction of this term created by the common (?) western (?) idea that "rationality" is somehow opposed to other things?

 

For example often we read "emotional" as an opposition to "rational" whereas from what Apech is saying "emotionality" could very well be under the employ of "rationality".

 

As a tangent, there are currently several studies knocking around (which I will go try to dig up) that put a case forward for "rational decision-making" being nigh-on impossible without emotions

 

Anecdotally, the most people I've ever had get really annoyed at me all at once were those who were arguing that I was being irrational

 

I think for fun, if you want to dissect "the shamanistic" approach from this "rational" perspective then I suggest you also dissect the "psychotherapeutic approach" and the "psychiatric approach" from same. I think it's worth doing with all of them

 

Do you want the study where the findings show that people in the States like different coloured pills from people in Europe ?

[manitou]

Also, please know that there is a difference between Carlos Castaneda's 'modern day shamans', which Don Juan Mateus spent years getting Carlos to become, and the type of shamanism that is often alluded to in these threads, which is the more anthropoligical view (indigenous societies, ceremony, and assistance of drugs). When Castaneda first hooked up with Don Juan, Carlos thought he was getting all the skinny on the indigenous shamanism (drugs, etc) - Carlos was an anthropology student at UCLA when he first met Don Juan. What Carlos actually found, over the years with Don Juan, was enlightenment, something that Carlos hadn't expected at all. The drug use in Carlos's case (at the beginning of his exposure to Don Juan) was to get Carlos to see in a right brain fashion - his anthrological brain was very set up to left brain vision. Carlos's brain had to be totally f*cked up to get to the point where it could be reassembled in a healthier alignment.

The modern day shamans who have travelled the Castaneda path (such as myself and others on the site) find that the Castaneda path indeed takes one to the room where all paths meet. This is the path of Toltec wisdom. Because a modern day shaman has done the inner work (as Castaneda had to do by recapitulating his life and see where he had wronged people, etc) the modern shaman aims for the state of mind where one is not controlled by his character defects and acts free of encumbrance of old energy patterns. The modern day shaman (when in consciousness) is hand in hand with the Sage; they are one and the same. If one can hold shamanism up to the light and inspect it, one would find that the shaman walks the way of the Tao (love, never too much, never be the first) as an end result. The magic that is attained at the end of the path is the same magic that is attained with the Tao - that of accomplishing by 'doing nothing', (or wu-wei). The shaman would call this the Power of Silence, that power which is activated once the shaman or sage sets his intent on an outcome and then stands back and 'lets it happen'.

The shamanic path will not fall under the path of what is rational, any more than the Tao can. At some point, there must be a surrender to what is not rational in order to fully see either discipline. The magic cannot be truly explained to someone; it must be experienced. When one concentrates on a shamanic path, particularly by Castaneda and the many shamans who have used Castaneda as a jumping off point and developed the Toltec wisdom even further, the truths are found by 'losing everything that is not true', same as the path of the Tao. It leads to the same place, just a different path.

Please understand that those of us who identify as modern day shamans are more aligned with recapturing the wisdom of the ancients as opposed to sitting around a campfire slamming jugs of ayahuasca in South America, although I'd surely love to try that one too! Actually, I do incorporate cannabis into my path, as it promotes a type of 3-dimensional observation capacity that is certainly obtainable without it, but for purposes of healing ceremonies it is nice to be able to summon the mindset at will and instantaneously.

But it does seem that there is a discrepancy between what people think they know about shamanism and what is actually the case. I suspect we're talking about 2 different things - the modern day shaman and the shaman of old - and this tends to confuse the conversation. As far as I'm concerned, it's the Toltec wisdom that is the prize, and it's the trappings that are optional. The end result is the same: the shaman (and the Sage) receive their nourishment from the Mother.

[Apech]

Also, please know that there is a difference between Carlos Castaneda's 'modern day shamans', which Don Juan Mateus spent years getting Carlos to become, and the type of shamanism that is often alluded to in these threads ...

 

(snip)

 

 

Hi Manitou,

 

Nice to have some CC stuff on here. Thanks for reminding about the 'old seer' and 'new seer' differences. I kind of assumed the OP was talking about trad. shamanism but your comments are interesting.

 

A.

[island]

Apepch7 you assumed correctly, i was referring to traditional Shamanism.

 

Everyone else thanks for some great insights and observations. Food for thought.