Taoism Vs Buddhism

[Marblehead]

Hi Marble,

 

I'm not suggesting you are an unhappy man. I never said 'sound does not exist'.

 

I only say - sound arise without hearer, they arise and subside according to conditions. They are vivid, clear, pristine, undeniable. I do not say they don't exist. I simply say they are clear, vivid, but insubstantial - they arise and subside momentarily.

 

Place your hand on your head... sensation arises, clear, vivid, undeniable! But the thought 'I felt it' is an after thought... an inference.

 

I live in the undeniable vividness of manifestation... without the belief in self-hood. Self-hood is just that - a belief, an inference... nothing actual.

 

What is actual is Life... in its wonderful diversity and manifestation... It is not a dead emptiness, it is Fullness itself.

 

It is fullness shining and presenting itself (and vanishing) every moment without an agent, an experiencer.

 

Yea!!!! I am at peace with you!!!!! I knew we would get close enough together for you to shut me up!!!!!

 

Well, except for this:

 

But the 'I am already boundless, free, and blissful. I even have peace and contentment in my life.' can be taken to a whole new level with true realization of Anatta.

 

I just knew you wouldn't be able to resist suggesting a higher plane. Hey, I am afraid of heights (not really, hehehe). Where I am is high enough for me. At the moment I have no complications in my life and no problems (except I should get a little sleep) so why would I want to screw that up by adding confusion to my philosophy and thereby to my life?

 

No, I am exactly where I am supposed to be. No doubt in my mind.

[xabir2005]

Yea!!!! I am at peace with you!!!!! I knew we would get close enough together for you to shut me up!!!!!

 

Well, except for this:

 

But the 'I am already boundless, free, and blissful. I even have peace and contentment in my life.' can be taken to a whole new level with true realization of Anatta.

 

I just knew you wouldn't be able to resist suggesting a higher plane. Hey, I am afraid of heights (not really, hehehe). Where I am is high enough for me. At the moment I have no complications in my life and no problems (except I should get a little sleep) so why would I want to screw that up by adding confusion to my philosophy and thereby to my life?

 

No, I am exactly where I am supposed to be. No doubt in my mind.

Why grasp on something false, when there is a more accurate, clearer view of life? How does doing some contemplation screw up your life? I cannot see anything but benefits arising out of this. From contemplation, direct non-conceptual realization occurs that leaves no room for doubt and confusion. It is seriously much more direct and simple than our theorizing.

 

That is why Buddha said:

The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what feeling is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what perception is, and how it arises, and passes away. He has understood what the mental formations are, and how they arise, and pass away. He has understood what consciousness is, and how it arises, and passes away.

 

Therefore, I say, the Perfect One has won complete deliverance through the extinction, fading away, disappearance, rejection, and getting rid of all opinions and conjectures, of all inclination to the vainglory of I and mine.

 

- Majjhima Nikaya, 72

Edited November 20, 2010 by xabir2005

[xabir2005]

MH, forgive me for my ramblings. Haha... the joy springs naturally from this arising insight of anatta.

[manitou]

Seems l ike the more we talk about structure of different systems the more we get away from the Tao.

[Marblehead]

MH, forgive me for my ramblings. Haha... the joy springs naturally from this arising insight of anatta.

 

 

Your fine. I went to bed and let my body and mind get the rest they needed.

 

That's called living spontaneously - doing what needs be done.

 

Yes, I know you love to talk about your life philosophy just as much as I do. And everything and anything you say might help someone along their path. If it helps even just one person it has all been worth while.

 

The Perfect One is free from any theory, for the Perfect One has understood what the body is, and how it arises, and passes away.

 

Did you know that I am he who is being spoken of? But "I" will still pass away. That's just one of the processes of nature.

[Marblehead]

Seems like the more we talk about structure of different systems the more we get away from the Tao.

 

 

Where do you see any structure in anything I have said? Hehehe.

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

 

Okay, with intent, I placed my hand on my head and there I was. I exist!!! WoW!!!!! I am sitting in (on) my chair. It Exists!!!! More Wows!!!

 

Am I eternal and will last forever? NO. Will the chair? No. But for now both exist.

 

Oh My Goodness!!! How many times do I need to tell you folks that I am not in prison and I do not need to be liberated? You folks sure do love to use that word!

 

But I am already boundless, free, and blissful. I even have peace and contentment in my life.

 

No, "I" did not create the sounds, smells, sights that I experience of other things. They produced them in their own manner. I percieved them in my own manner.

 

When I turn on my stereo you cannot hear the music but I can. The sound does not exist for you but it does exist for me. If I told you what song was playing and you knew the song then you would be able to hear the song as well but it would be generated by your thoughts and not by my speakers.

 

Now you know that I do not accept the concept of reincarnation into my life so what you said about it does not apply to me.

 

I was born, I have lived and I plan to live for many years still and one day I will die. Once I die I will no longer have all these experiences I have had and will have in my life. What is me will become something else. NO, I have no idea what that might be and I'm not a bit concerned about it.

 

But if I did believe in reincarnation I would enjoy doing this whole thing all over again. There were a lot of women I didn't have the chance to give a hug and kiss so maybe I can catch them the next go-round.

 

I really do exist even though my existence is only temporary. I am today of the Manifest and one day parts of me will return to the Mystery. Beyond that I have no thoughts or words.

THIS!! This has the 'feeling' of Authenticity, not of Tao spoken, but of Tao 'known'.. Thanks, Marblehead, that is a breath of fresh air..

 

Be Well..

[3bob]

This is a translation. So you have no idea what he really said. Just like the first Milarepa translations were muddled by Christian theistic interpretations.

 

It's clear you don't know what the Buddha taught. Keep quoting the Zen stuff to yourself. Oneness is a view, so is not the viewless view.

 

You go ahead with your oneness, I'll stay with emptiness.

 

I imagine most everything you have read is also from a translation of some kind or another... (or recopies of recopies that tend to lose a little after each recopy) So your "so" is not the main point or even a very good point to try and nail someone with. I have no problem with the Zen Patriarchs meanings, but apparently you do based on projected word play?

 

It is clear (as follows in my experiences) that there is truth in the noble eight-fold path. It is clear there is wisdom in the meanings of four-fold negation, It is clear that the core of Buddhism is pointed to in Udana 8.3 and that without that posibility the rest (methods) would be in vain instead of in preparation, it is clear that the historic Buddha was a being of compassion as further demonstrated through many of his students, it is clear that not everything in all the variations of Buddhist texts are agreed upon by all members, it is clear that many Buddhist masters are humble, kind, keen and of good cheer - it is clear that beating points or people up over and over again gets nowhere.

 

It is clear that the Buddha had a truthful witness:

 

Om

Edited November 20, 2010 by 3bob

[Marblehead]

Greetings..

 

 

THIS!! This has the 'feeling' of Authenticity, not of Tao spoken, but of Tao 'known'.. Thanks, Marblehead, that is a breath of fresh air..

 

Be Well..

 

Thank you so much. I would blush but I'm too old for that.

[Vajrahridaya]

Seems l ike the more we talk about structure of different systems the more we get away from the Tao.

 

Speak for yourself.

 

The cosmos is a system, the only way to be free in the system is to understand it fully. Falling into a state of being that is free from thought is easy through focus and a process of letting go, but that doesn't guarantee insight into how "you" happen because you are still left with the one experiencing the "letting go" as ultimate. Freedom is freedom from that as well, which takes a particular insight that doesn't seem to come about in most systems of spirituality. The space of I AM is only going to take you to the edge, but not pop you through the bubble.

[Vajrahridaya]

I imagine most everything you have read is also from a translation of some kind or another... (or recopies of recopies that tend to lose a little after each recopy) So your "so" is not the main point or even a very good point to try and nail someone with. I have no problem with the Zen Patriarchs meanings, but apparently you do based on projected word play?

 

Actually I've been taught by people who know the original language and who've translated for me. I also know a bit of sanskrit myself.

It is clear (as follows in my experiences) that there is truth in the noble eight-fold path. It is clear there is wisdom in the meanings of four-fold negation, It is clear that the core of Buddhism is pointed to in Udana 8.3 and that without that posibility the rest (methods) would be in vain instead of in preparation, it is clear that the historic Buddha was a being of compassion as further demonstrated through many of his students, it is clear that not everything in all the variations of Buddhist texts are agreed upon by all members, it is clear that many Buddhist masters are humble, kind, keen and of good cheer - it is clear that beating points or people up over and over again gets nowhere.

 

It is clear that the Buddha had a truthful witness:

 

Om

 

Well good! Feel free to have a great life and afterlife without responding to me. This is a board of sharing. I enjoy writing about the finer points of the view. People ask me questions and I answer. If people debate, I also will debate. Why throw stones?

[Marblehead]

Why throw stones?

 

 

Because we can?

 

Sorry, the devil made me ask that.

[Vajrahridaya]

Because we can?

 

Sorry, the devil made me ask that.

 

Ok Marblehead, prepare to have your wig split!

 

Have we found the universe that existed before the Big Bang?

[3bob]

Actually I've been taught by people who know the original language and who've translated for me. I also know a bit of sanskrit myself.

 

Well good! Feel free to have a great life and afterlife without responding to me. This is a board of sharing. I enjoy writing about the finer points of the view. People ask me questions and I answer. If people debate, I also will debate. Why throw stones?

 

Strange... since there were some responses to VJ in there? As far as "stones" go I suggest getting off it.

[ralis]

Speak for yourself.

 

The cosmos is a system, the only way to be free in the system is to understand it fully. Falling into a state of being that is free from thought is easy through focus and a process of letting go, but that doesn't guarantee insight into how "you" happen because you are still left with the one experiencing the "letting go" as ultimate. Freedom is freedom from that as well, which takes a particular insight that doesn't seem to come about in most systems of spirituality. The space of I AM is only going to take you to the edge, but not pop you through the bubble.

 

Obviously, you know nothing about dynamic systems. Further, there are closed systems and open systems. To make the claim that you or a Buddha can fully understand the cosmic system, is illusion.

 

The constant in any dynamic system is change. Therefore, you or anyone will never fully understand.

[Vajrahridaya]

 

The constant in any dynamic system is change.

 

That's exactly what dependent origination means. You do reveal time and time again your lack of spiritual experience ralis. Because it is possible on a level far transcending your linear minded entrapment to see past brain limitations.

 

Please just go meditate or something and leave this stuff to those that know better.

Edited November 21, 2010 by Vajrahridaya

[Vajrahridaya]

Strange... since there were some responses to VJ in there? As far as "stones" go I suggest getting off it.

 

I mostly just hit stones back at people with my trusty baseball bat. I'm never the one who starts throwing stones.

[TheSongsofDistantEarth]

Sonny, you sure got a tight grip on that bat! Is Buddhism just an intellectual exercise for you? I've never seen anybody so unawares and stuck in a pattern.

Edited November 21, 2010 by TheSongsofDistantEarth

[Vajrahridaya]

Sonny, you sure got a tight grip on that bat! Is Buddhism just an intellectual exercise for you? I've never seen anybody so unawares and stuck in a pattern.

 

:lol:

 

Oh you poor child.

[Stigweard]

I mostly just hit stones back at people with my trusty baseball bat. I'm never the one who starts throwing stones.

That's interesting ... I thought your insight into dependent origination didn't allow for "first causes of things". If we practically and literally applied your insight then, because of dependent origination, the target of the thrown stone is just as culpable for the act as the thrower of the stone.

 

So if I, as a moderator, was to suspend the person who threw the "first stone" shouldn't I also suspend the person who mutually created the cause for that stone to be thrown? And then what am I to do if that target turned around and started throwing stones back? Whom am I to suspend?

 

[3bob]

"There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not"

 

Chuang Tzu (c.360 BC - c. 275 BC)

 

[Stigweard]

"There is a beginning. There is no beginning of that beginning. There is no beginning of that no beginning of beginning. There is something. There is nothing. There is something before the beginning of something and nothing, and something before that. Suddenly there is something and nothing. But between something and nothing, I still don't really know which is something and which is nothing. Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not"

 

Chuang Tzu (c.360 BC - c. 275 BC)

 

So in other words, if I was to suspend noone who was involved then I would be right, but if I was to suspend everyone involved then I would still be right. Right?

 

[Stigweard]

Seriously though, help me out here folks because I'm just the dumb ol' janitor who only wants to sweep the floors and take out the trash.

 

If I see a topic that starts to degenerate into the slinging of poorly veiled insults, and it's a repeat of the same blasted argument with the same players with an almost cut and paste dialogue, what am I to do? How would you advise the situation to handled from a moderator's point of view?

 

What would Buddhists do about it?

 

What would Taoists do about it?

 

I mean should I just let it be and do nothing? Sorry I can't do that. I've been charged with upholding our guidelines, one of which being "no personal insults".

 

So I gotta do something.

 

How about sending the parties involved polite messages to reconsider how they are interacting?

 

That's already been done. Did it help before? Sure it did at the time but now I see the same people indulging in the same mud-slinging.

 

Perhaps I should suspend them. Well that's happened before already.

 

If I was to follow our guidelines I would simply go, "You, you and you ... you have been told and reprimanded before and you are at it again. So instead of the short 7-day holiday how abouts you take a 45-day vacation."

 

I mean for fraks' sakes, if we were truly living the spiritual traditions we claim we subscribe to I should be the most mindlessly bored and under-worked moderator in the history of the internet. But no, here I am tearing my hair out because we have members acting like ... well ... you know what I mean.

 

So help an ol' bum out here, be it from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, what do you think I should do to fulfill my responsibility as a moderator??

[Marblehead]

"... Now, I've just said something, but I don't really know whether I've said anything or not"

 

Chuang Tzu (c.360 BC - c. 275 BC)

 

 

The first time I read that (many years ago) it afforded me a great awakening.

[Marblehead]

So help an ol' bum out here, be it from a Taoist or Buddhist perspective, what do you think I should do to fulfill my responsibility as a moderator??

 

Is your intuition still working? Do what needs be done. Nothing more, nothing less.